Gov't struggles to find answer to pilot fatigue

[Guest NewsBot]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Current federal rules for how many hours pilots can be scheduled to work were written in an age of propellor-driven planes. Officials back then defined a reasonable work day for a pilot without a scientific understanding of fatigue and well before the modern airline industry....

 

By JOAN LOWY

 

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[Ahhlee]

Pansies.

 

I bet Steve McQueen, John Wayne and Yul Brynner could fly those planes without needing a break.

 

They were MEN!!!!

[timesjoke]

Pansies.

 

I bet Steve McQueen, John Wayne and Yul Brynner could fly those planes without needing a break.

 

They were MEN!!!!

 

To a certain extent your right.

 

My Grandfather didn't stop working at 40 hours a week, that would have left half the work not done. You did what you had to do. My mother worked three jobs at one time, she certainly was tired but she did what she had to do.

 

I take work home sometimes for the weekends and easily put in over 70 hours in the week sometimes. Other times I goof off like today

 

I hear that in Europe some places have made full time employment to be 32 hours, now there are your pansy men, lol.

[emkay64]

Speed!??

 

..................................................................

[timesjoke]

Speed!??

 

..................................................................

 

Loved the movie

[mercury]

I wouldn't want to be on a plane being flown by a fatigued piot any more than I'd want to be on one being flown by a drunk pilot, driven by a fatigued or drunk driver....

 

How many passenger lives was your grandfather responsible for, TJ?

[timesjoke]

I wouldn't want to be on a plane being flown by a fatigued piot any more than I'd want to be on one being flown by a drunk pilot, driven by a fatigued or drunk driver....

 

How many passenger lives was your grandfather responsible for, TJ?

 

I guess everyone who was born after him maybe?

 

Nice way to take the arguement to the extreme and lose connection to reality there Merc.

 

The point I am making is what is real fatigue and what is fake just to get a high rate of pay and a low work requirement to get it. The airlines are already bleeding money and where do we go from there? I do not want an honestly very worn out pilot to fly a plane either, but it is not as bad as you think. Most of the flight is on automatic pilot anyway. Minor adjustments can be made on the fly without taking it off auto. The real flying is done in bad weather and landing, taking off.

 

 

How many lives are on the line for a Doctor doing intern duty? About 4 hours of sleep a day and making life/death decisions sometimes hundreds of times a day. Do you think they can just toss up their hands and call "time" and go home when they feel a tad tired?

 

Somehow they make it though, while mistakes do happen and they get a lot of media attention, the percentages of problems are actually almost nothing.

[mercury]

"Everyone that was born after him, maybe?" I fail to understand what connection you're trying to make to a pilot who is required to make sure passengers reach their destination safely. And in what way was my comment taking it to the extreme? You totally lost me.

 

 

What I know about being a passenger: spending 4 hours sitting in one place wears me the hell out. And I don't have to spend a second of that time worrying about the 150 or more passengers counting on me to get them safely to their destinations, pay attention to control panels, be aware of my location. concern myself with whether I had enough sleep the night before, or decypher radio talk with the control tower. I just make sure I get to the airport on time, buckle up and enjoy the ride.

 

I can do physical work for 10-12 hours, and other than some muscle fatigue, feel really good and alert. A couple hours on a plane... I can barely keep my eyes open.

 

I don't presume to know what all a pilots daily struggles and full responsibilities are, because I'm not a pilot (are you?) but comparing whatever your grandfather did, to the responsibility that is placed on a pilot is insane... unless he was a bus driver, train conductor, pilot or ship's captain responsibe for safely transporting human beings, who pay for the privledge. from point A to point B.

 

Did you even read the article? Your comments read like you're just shooting from the hip.

 

 

I agree that the Airlines need to do something to get their budgets straight. I don't agree that getting the budget straight needs to come with the compromise of passenger safety.

 

I don't agree with the rigid schedules they put Interns through, either...

[timesjoke]

I gave you a better example with the doctor so if you were really interested in the topic you would have spoken on that point, being as you ignored it your obviously just be pissy for some reason so I am done with you on this if you can't stay on topic.

 

By the way my Grandfather point was if he dies averyone else that was born would not have been here, it was a joke, you missed it, lol.

 

 

Toodles, your not usually this silly, you mad at me or something?

[mercury]

No, I'm not mad at you... I just disagree with you on this. I can do that and not be angry. Lighten up

 

Go back and re-read my comment. I did address the intern point. It's the very last line of my comment.... I'll put it here, too, so you don't miss it:

I don't agree with the rigid schedules they put Interns through, either...

 

Your grandfather comment didn't really make sense to me in context of the discussion. I guess I get where you were going, but making a fmaily is not the same thing as being paid to do a job and being paid to do it exceptionally.

[timesjoke]

No, I'm not mad at you... I just disagree with you on this. I can do that and not be angry. Lighten up

 

Go back and re-read my comment. I did address the intern point. It's the very last line of my comment.... I'll put it here, too, so you don't miss it:

 

Your grandfather comment didn't really make sense to me in context of the discussion. I guess I get where you were going, but making a fmaily is not the same thing as being paid to do a job and being paid to do it exceptionally.

 

My grandther was a farmer. He was a farmer when there no mexicans picking the produce and it was all local families who were working on the farm. A lifetime of farming made him responsible for feeding easily hundreds of thousands of families on top of that. You didn't have huge commercial farm companies back then, just farmers who worked their azz off to grow food.

 

 

Taking time off meant less food production.....maybe that meant a family might go hungry? The impact his work had was maybe difficult to touch but was very wide indeed.

 

The bigger point was in his day you did what you had to do, how many people make the kind of money a pilot makes? How many people in America make less for much harder work? I don't feel sorry for pilots who complain about a job they sit on the azz to do all day when some people litteraly go home bleeding and hurting at the end of their day every day..........man up and grow a pair, stop being a crybaby.

 

 

How many pilots in wartime flew missions tired? How many had to drop their bombs near friendly troops and had to be careful not to kill them but still attack the enemy?

 

If they find the job bad then quit, but stop crying.

[mercury]

Comparing them to fighter pilots, is not quite the same... we all know about adreneline rushes, right? I imagine that wartime would be one hell of an adreneline rush. Plus, when you're in the miitary, you don't think for yourself, you follow orders, so it doesn't really matter how tired they might be.

 

I get what you're saying about your grandfather, now... but I still don't think it's comparable anymore than I think my father's job is comparable. My father was an industrial journeyman electrician. He wired power houses for things like hospitals, auto plants, shopping malls, etc. Throughout his entire career, which began in the early 60's, a full time work week was 35 hours, just like those "pansy" french dudes. He rarely worked only 35 hours, though, and came home dog tired every night. Now, part of the reason for limiting the hours was in order to provide quality services to the contractors that hired them and ensure their brains were fresh enough to do the job correctly. A tired/worn out electrician might fall from a high place and be killed or seriously hurt. He might twist together the wrong wires, resulting in a fire that may cause damage to the structure he's wiring and/or the deaths of many, he may forget to ground that one connection and someone else comes along and gets zapped by it, he could be electrocuted if he isn't thinking clearly. And depending on the situation, location and what flammables might be nearby, the fire could result in an explosion.

 

Now when a pilot messes up because he's tired, what is the result? Usually certain death for himself and everyone on board that plane.

 

Even in your grandfather's case, the risk was potential. With a pilot, it's real. And as a paying customer on any airline, I'd like to know that the guy transporting me, is well rested, or at least has the opportunity to be well rested, and won't nod off and run into a mountain. Remember that passengers dying is a also a huge liability to the airlines and isn't good for their bottom line.

[eddo]

Farmer falls asleep on the job- he gets rest, no immediate or catastrophic effect on anyone- ecept maybe he loses out on a days crops. People get food from another farmer, or miss a meal. boo hoo.

 

Airline pilot falls asleep on the job- he gets rest. Everyone on the plane (who are trusting this pilot with their lives) is now in risk of dying. People on the ground below the plane are at risk of dying. Literally thousands of lives have the potential of immediate and life changing events unfolding before them- upto and including death of themselves, and/or family members and friends.

 

 

Slight difference between the two professions... Both very important to a functioning society, but one has a slightly higher responsibility factor.

[timesjoke]

Comparing them to fighter pilots, is not quite the same... we all know about adreneline rushes, right? I imagine that wartime would be one hell of an adreneline rush. Plus, when you're in the miitary, you don't think for yourself, you follow orders, so it doesn't really matter how tired they might be.

 

Adreneline rushes? First of all they last seconds, not hours for a long flight, typically bombers are not stored near enemy lines where they are easy targets, so they have to fly a long time to get to their target. There may be a dump at the time of the bombing but that makes your hands shake and your heart race, I doubt it adds much mental clarity.

 

Everyone follows orders, not sure how that is relivant.

 

I get what you're saying about your grandfather, now... but I still don't think it's comparable anymore than I think my father's job is comparable. My father was an industrial journeyman electrician. He wired power houses for things like hospitals, auto plants, shopping malls, etc. Throughout his entire career, which began in the early 60's, a full time work week was 35 hours, just like those "pansy" french dudes. He rarely worked only 35 hours, though, and came home dog tired every night. Now, part of the reason for limiting the hours was in order to provide quality services to the contractors that hired them and ensure their brains were fresh enough to do the job correctly. A tired/worn out electrician might fall from a high place and be killed or seriously hurt. He might twist together the wrong wires, resulting in a fire that may cause damage to the structure he's wiring and/or the deaths of many, he may forget to ground that one connection and someone else comes along and gets zapped by it, he could be electrocuted if he isn't thinking clearly. And depending on the situation, location and what flammables might be nearby, the fire could result in an explosion.

 

And yet he didn't stick to the 35 hours and I am assuming there was never an electrical fire that killed everyone in one of his buildings.......right?

 

I really was just saying that this new trend to cry about having to work hard is just silly. I do not want an honestly very tired pilot flying a plane either, just trying to say we should be reasonable too, they can sleep while the plane is on autopilot, catnaps do me a lot of good, lol.

 

 

Now when a pilot messes up because he's tired, what is the result? Usually certain death for himself and everyone on board that plane.

 

Really? How many plane crashes do we have every day? Do you have any idea how many flights happen each and every day? If things were that bad we would have seen some big indication of it by now.

 

 

Even in your grandfather's case, the risk was potential. With a pilot, it's real. And as a paying customer on any airline, I'd like to know that the guy transporting me, is well rested, or at least has the opportunity to be well rested, and won't nod off and run into a mountain. Remember that passengers dying is a also a huge liability to the airlines and isn't good for their bottom line.

 

As I said I agree "if their really exhausted" but it sounds to me like just another ploy for more money and less work, the new American motto.

 

 

 

 

 

eddo, let it go, your trying to hard and making no sense, if all your interested in taking an opposition to what I say, at least take the time to frame your possitions in a smart way, at least Merc is making great points.

[mercury]

Personally, I've had 2 adreneline rushes that lasted way more than a couple seconds.

 

The first was after the birth of my first child. I made it through the delivery unmedicated, but had some kind of seizure a couple hours later. A double dose of demerol didn't knock me out. The only time I was not conscious was during that seizure, while I was doing the fish dance and turning purple. I was wide awake and fully alert for 2 full days.

 

The second was a true fight or flight response.... dealing with meth head family members. I didn't sleep that time for 3 days. I started to feel like one of them after about 30 hours, without a single drug in my system. But I was fearing for my life... literally.

 

A fighter pilot, on his way to pick up and/or drop a bomb is in constant danger and an obvious target. I know my adreneline would be rushing for way longer than a second or 2.

 

My point about following orders is relevent because the military doesn't give a rats butt how tired you might be, or how long it's been since you last slept. They own you, and they'll use you in whatever way they choose. You are their property to use as they see fit. My husband used to regularly pull 24-36 hours shifts as an aeronautic electrician working on DC9s that carried dignitaries and upper echelon around the planet. One night a screwdriver was unaccounted for.... do you know what a lose screw driver can do to the electronics of an airplane? or what the result of that lose screwdriver would be for those dignitaries, upper eschelon and anyone unlucky enough to be on he ground beneath it? (hint: short circuits, electrical fires and a plane taking a nose dive). This screwdriver came up missing after one of those 24 hour shifts. He was stationed at an Air National Guard base, and we didn't live on base, because there was no housing available. We lived over an hour away. He had just gotten home when they had double checked his tool chest for a tool count. They called him back in to find it with the threat of a court martial. The plane was already in the air. You can bet he was wide awake by that point.... people's lives were on the line and he was responsible for them. The screwdriver wasn't actually missing. The person that rechecked his box has miscounted.

 

I don't know really how that's relevent...LOL... but it does illustrate that the military will push you to your absolute limits.

 

Actually, my dad did have a couple on the job accidents. During the last one, he fell off a ladder and fractured his pelvis. He had to take a medical retirement after that. But, no... I don't think a building he wired ever burned down because of the electrical system... and another "but" here.... that's why they have inspectors come in and approve the work. There aren't inspectors on flights, making sure a pilot is alert, all the inspectors can do is anaylze the rubble after the crash.

 

If you read the article, you would find that they aren't really trying to reduce the number of flying hours, they are trying to figure out a better way to reduce pilot fatigue (i.e.: back to back, coast to coast flights are easier on a pilot than several shorter flights requiring multiple take offs and landings.) The guidelines they are still using were put into effect before we knew how fatigue effects mental function. We have some science to back these ideas up now, so let's review how we've been doing it, and see if maybe we can come up with something safer for everyone. A tired driver is more dangerous than a drunk driver. I imagine a tired pilot is worse than a drunk pilot, too.

 

It's not that we have so many plane crashes, but of those that do crash, many can be traced and blamed on pilot fatigue.

 

And no they can't sleep while on auto pilot... they are on duty. I'm pretty sure that would be considered negligence if anything were to go wrong. I guess it would be okay for a cop to nap while there' s nothing screaching over his radio, too, then? What if something in the auto pilot malfuntions? What if the co-pilot nods off, too?

[timesjoke]

The examples you offered are not just an adreneline rush, especially the birthing, you have so many natural hormones and stuff going wild in your body during a birth there is no way to say any one thing did much of anything.

 

 

Your second one was a good example, were you fighting with extra strength and endurance for hours at a time or was it short term? The average person will metabolize the adreneline in just a few minutes but some will last longer.

 

 

My point was that the flights would be hours, not minutes, a steady stream of adreneline would more than likely kill the average person, the stress would be too great. As it is many people report negative effects after one.

 

 

I would think the pilot might get one about the time to drop the bombs but again adreneline does not really improve your clarity, it might even reduce your ability to think clearly.

 

 

 

 

 

So with all the pushing the limits you talk about in the military....they seem to make it right? They find a way because someone is behind them with a boot in their behinds telling them they have to. Interesting how much more performance you can get out of a person with strict standards and leadership that does not accept no or "I can't" as an answer.

 

 

 

 

If they asked for less hours that would not be what they wanted. You never ask for what you want, you leave the trail or bread crumbs to the solution you want them to reach without you ever saying the words.

 

I have been involved in many such discussions.

 

Again, I agree with you that I do not want a 'truly' sleepy pilot flying and maybe if they can't handle the job they need to be fired. All jobs are not for all people. Maybe that pilot would be a great personal pilot with less time in the air making him sleepy. I can't ride as a passenger in a car without getting sleepy myself so I would not be good in a job where that is a requirement.

 

The real problem is landing and taking off, how about electric shock treatments? That will wake them up

[mercury]

You can read the whole saga of Uncle Joe and the b!tch at TJ.

 

 

 

Oh wait.... no you can't. Sorry

[timesjoke]

lol, it's all good, I spend too much time on forums as it is, it is almost a gift to be banned from one sometimes, just to make me take a break