Plastic surgery

[emkay64]

Actually.....

 

Ali's surgery is not solely for self image purposes. Hers is medical, based on past history. Being overweight is a health concern.

[timesjoke]

I know. I considered discussing it with the kids, but it still leaves some seeds in their mind. Emily has already had issues. For 2 weeks straight when she was 5 years old she cried every time she looked in the mirror, because she felt she looked "different" than everyone else.

 

I think kids understand better than we give them credit for. The important part is they know responsibility and see good examples of responsibility from the people who are important to their life.

 

 

 

Why did Tami feel her body was "unbalanced"? It's the perception that really needs to change...not cup size. Whether or not she's old enough...it still tells your daughter that Tami didn't feel her breasts were adequate...and in all likelihood if your daughter were to look the same later in life, she would see that someone she cares about thought that wasn't adequate and maybe...maybe she needed some work done. I'm not saying she will feel like that for sure...I'm saying the potential for damage is there. I personally don't need any more potential here.

 

Well we can't be frozen in life worried about every "possible" harm in our life. I am more than sure I will make mistakes in life so if I am to make mistakes, then I will try to be sure that at the very least I show the example of taking full responsibility for what I do.

 

As far as why Tami feeling unbalanced it would be a question of proportion and I am sure a little vanity to look as good as possible but as I said before, everything I have seen from history tells me that it is normal for women to want to look as good as possible in her eyes. My daughter might think tattos or multi piercings is attractive (I hope not) but the one thing I know beyond all other things is she will be an individual and acting from her true beliefs, not from what my choice of mate thinks looks good to her.

 

 

 

 

Actually.....

 

Ali's surgery is not solely for self image purposes. Hers is medical, based on past history. Being overweight is a health concern.

 

The original surgery for the belt certainly had a health concern to be sure, but I would argue that the follow up appearance surgery is for mental health, she will benefit from an improved self image.

[Ahhlee]

Something that amazes me is the fascination that our society has with women's breasts and how people feel so free to comment on them...often crudely.

 

Like Merc's example - teasing her for being too skinny and flat chested. WTF???? Her breast size is no one's business but her own and it shouldn't define her as a woman.

 

I have a love/hate relationship with my breasts. I love their softness and the pleasure they can bring to myself and a partner, but other than that they can be a real pain. Guys, strangers even, feel free to comment on them and even grab at them all the time, and men have had more conversations with my tits than they will ever have with me.

 

I wonder if our media didn't glorify large breasts so much, would most women even bother having theirs enhanced?

[Ahhlee]

I shared the story over at the Jungle how one of the videographers at my brother's wedding got drunk and filmed and zoomed in on my cleavage for several minutes during the reception. Everyone laughed when they saw it, but I was embarrassed.

 

If I'm sitting at the bar with friends, there are a few local guys who will wad up their beer bottle labels and try to get "3 points" by tossing them at my cleavage.

 

Once I wore a pretty but more form fitting dress to a reception and as soon as I walked in, one guy I knew yelled across the room, "Holy sh!t Alicia, you have huge tits!!!!" and you should have seen how fukking red my face turned. Everyone else thought it was fun, but I didn't so much.

 

 

It really sucks when you are made to feel ashamed of your body like that.

[timesjoke]

Something that amazes me is the fascination that our society has with women's breasts and how people feel so free to comment on them...often crudely.

 

Like Merc's example - teasing her for being too skinny and flat chested. WTF???? Her breast size is no one's business but her own and it shouldn't define her as a woman.

 

I have a love/hate relationship with my breasts. I love their softness and the pleasure they can bring to myself and a partner, but other than that they can be a real pain. Guys, strangers even, feel free to comment on them and even grab at them all the time, and men have had more conversations with my tits than they will ever have with me.

 

I wonder if our media didn't glorify large breasts so much, would most women even bother having theirs enhanced?

 

Spoken like a woman who has big breasts, lol.

 

Did you know human breasts are one of the things that confuse scientists who try to study evolution?

 

Human females are the only females who keep enlarged breasts.

 

Why? Assuming evolution is real why would human females "need" enlarged breasts?

 

Well the closest thing I ever saw that looked close enough to a good scientific explanation was from a different angle than one might expect. To simulate the appearance of the behind.

 

Most of the animal kingdom is a "rear mount" reproductive act, the view the male has is of the buttocks and the breasts are not an important factor for their mating. Humans are designed for a face to face mounting and the theory was that the rounded appearance of the breasts are designed to excite and entice men by similating the rounded view they would normally see from behind.

 

 

Maybe I read too much, lol....

.

.

[snafu]

I shared the story over at the Jungle how one of the videographers at my brother's wedding got drunk and filmed and zoomed in on my cleavage for several minutes during the reception. Everyone laughed when they saw it, but I was embarrassed.

 

If I'm sitting at the bar with friends, there are a few local guys who will wad up their beer bottle labels and try to get "3 points" by tossing them at my cleavage.

 

Once I wore a pretty but more form fitting dress to a reception and as soon as I walked in, one guy I knew yelled across the room, "Holy sh!t Alicia, you have huge tits!!!!" and you should have seen how fukking red my face turned. Everyone else thought it was fun, but I didn't so much.

 

 

It really sucks when you are made to feel ashamed of your body like that.

 

Nowbody was laughing at your boobs. They were laughing at how much the camera man was a perv.

 

And the 3 pointer, you were letting them.

Deep down you love the attention they bring you.

[RoyalOrleans]

Why? Assuming evolution is real why would human females "need" enlarged breasts?

 

Well... Mr. Science Guy... enlarged breasts in homo sapiens erectus occur for many natural and well known reasons.

 

Do homo sapiens not walk upright or do we stoop and drag our knuckles on the ground? Naturally, when posture is improved... there will be more room for growth and development.

 

What about estrogen? Men can develop breasts like a woman (gynecomastia) and if that happened to me, I'd never leave the house.

 

What about the pill? Does it not regulate the mestrual cycle? Ask your wife about premenstrual water retention and tenderness.

 

Well the closest thing I ever saw that looked close enough to a good scientific explanation was from a different angle than one might expect. To simulate the appearance of the behind.

 

Most of the animal kingdom is a "rear mount" reproductive act, the view the male has is of the buttocks and the breasts are not an important factor for their mating. Humans are designed for a face to face mounting and the theory was that the rounded appearance of the breasts are designed to excite and entice men by similating the rounded view they would normally see from behind.

 

All of this is garden variety zoology through the skeptical thoughts of Desmond Morris, a zoologist and an ethologist, and it can best be described in his book "The Naked Ape". Morris went on to say that copulation through missionary style sex, as opposed to rear-mounting, helped to develop feelings for each partner in means other than procreation. Could this be love?

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3y5IeC7eEU]YouTube - Orangutans Having Sex at the National Zoo[/ame]

 

These Orangutans do not have a problem copulating in the missionary position! And the female does not have enlarged breasts.. must be two gay orangutans getting it on.

 

You said, a bit earlier and I omitted it on purpose, that scientists are confused by enlarged breasts in human females. And you cite the works of a known evolutionary theorists. How does that help your argument?

 

Maybe I read too much, lol....

.

.

 

Maybe you don't read enough.

[timesjoke]

Well... Mr. Science Guy... enlarged breasts in homo sapiens erectus occur for many natural and well known reasons.

 

Your making the same mistake most of the evolutionists make, your looking backward taking away while the way it must happen is to move foward "adding".

 

There is nothing in the evolution theory that can explain human females keeping enlarged breasts. Even if you subscribe tot he notion traitsd can be added in opposition of DNA scientific fact, you have to figure out why evolution would add them, and so far nobody has offered me a reasonable explanation of why it would "add" enlarged breasts when no other female in the world has them.....there must be a reason.

 

Look at what Ali said, her boobs get in the way a lot and this is a 'modern' society. Could they get in the way "in the wild"?

 

 

 

 

You said, a bit earlier and I omitted it on purpose, that scientists are confused by enlarged breasts in human females. And you cite the works of a known evolutionary theorists. How does that help your argument?

 

Maybe you don't read enough.

 

I guess it proves that I am constantly looking for information and not blinding myself from ideas just because I do not personally follow them. My first goal is to make dicisions based on all the information, not just look for things that support what I "want" to be real as so many other people do.

 

 

By the way, I didn't say other creatures could not front mount, just talking abotu the most common methods in the animal world, many animals can mount in different ways, then you have some creatures like fish who don't mount at all (glad I am not a fish, lol).

[RoyalOrleans]

Your making the same mistake most of the evolutionists make, your looking backward taking away while the way it must happen is to move foward "adding".

 

There is nothing in the evolution theory that can explain human females keeping enlarged breasts. Even if you subscribe tot he notion traitsd can be added in opposition of DNA scientific fact, you have to figure out why evolution would add them, and so far nobody has offered me a reasonable explanation of why it would "add" enlarged breasts when no other female in the world has them.....there must be a reason.

 

Look at what Ali said, her boobs get in the way a lot and this is a 'modern' society. Could they get in the way "in the wild"?

 

So by your example, you just throw out random thoughts of Desmond Morris without taking sexual selection, based on primal females attracting a male, into consideration?

 

You are not arguing evolution and creationism anymore, you are arguing a theory of evolution over another theory of evolution.

 

 

I guess it proves that I am constantly looking for information and not blinding myself from ideas just because I do not personally follow them. My first goal is to make dicisions based on all the information, not just look for things that support what I "want" to be real as so many other people do.

 

 

By the way, I didn't say other creatures could not front mount, just talking abotu the most common methods in the animal world, many animals can mount in different ways, then you have some creatures like fish who don't mount at all (glad I am not a fish, lol).

 

Do you think I woke up one morning and declared myself a believer in evolution of the species?

 

The bonobo female has a brightly colored snatch used in sexual signaling, it says "mount me, I am ready!".

 

[attach=full]2501[/attach]

 

[attach=full]2502[/attach]

[Ahhlee]

Nowbody was laughing at your boobs. They were laughing at how much the camera man was a perv.

 

And the 3 pointer, you were letting them.

Deep down you love the attention they bring you.

 

9 times out of 10 I can laugh at myself. I really can. But that 1 time that I can't, my feelings get hurt. I guess that situation was just one of those times.

 

I didn't "let" them do anything. They started doing it while I was sitting at a nearby table. I tried to laugh it off at first but they kept up until I moved and then they razzed me even more. It wasn't appreciated nor fun.

 

I don't mind that kind of attention from a man I am interested in, but not random jerks just trying to be....jerks. That's why I rarely go out to the bars anymore. It's just not worth the hassle.

 

 

The bonobo female has a brightly colored snatch used in sexual signaling, it says "mount me, I am ready!".

 

 

I was going to mention the bonobos, too! They are unique because the female is willing to engage in sex even when she's not in estrus. They're a pervy little bunch of monkeys!

[timesjoke]

So by your example, you just throw out random thoughts of Desmond Morris without taking sexual selection, based on primal females attracting a male, into consideration?

 

You are not arguing evolution and creationism anymore, you are arguing a theory of evolution over another theory of evolution.

 

I spend a lot of time comparing one theory and another all in my attempts to look for the truth. In many cases I have found combinations of ideas and viewpoints bring me the most information instead of getting myself bogged down in any one person's thoughts of what "they" think the truth is, we are all humans, nobody is any better then anyone else if you take the time to educate yourself.

 

 

Attracting and keeping a male is very important, but in all other life forms enlarged breasts are not one of the factors, not even in apes who many evolutionists believe we came from so why?

 

Why? Looking foward instead of backward, why would nature believe this one form of life needed enlarged breasts when no other creature on the face of the planet needed them? Legs to walk on land, okay, air breathing lungs, okay that seems important......enlarged breasts? Not needed in apes, so there is no reasonable need for them in humans.

 

 

My point was to show how even science gets befuddled by breasts, but at the end of the day we men still love them

 

 

 

Do you think I woke up one morning and declared myself a believer in evolution of the species?

 

No, I believe most atheists are anti-religion so that drives them to the anti-religion science of evolution as their faith. Birds of a feather and all that. It fills your need to feel justified in rejecting Faith.

 

Evolution is 2% hard data in the form of fossil records and 98% Interpretation, the person in control of the mind determins the Interpretation and if they want excuses to reject the notion of God, then their mind will provide the missing pieces to make that happen.

 

 

Now I will admit that this can also be true for someone wanting to blindly embrace the notion of God but there is nothing to show that certain elements of both are possible. This is where someone like me comes in with an open mind ready to accept both sides as having valid points and too see the limitations

 

 

 

The bonobo female has a brightly colored snatch used in sexual signaling, it says "mount me, I am ready!".

 

So why not give human females the same thing? It obviously works. Why would humans have something never seen in other life forms? My point will always be looking foward, not backward.

 

Did you know that the black vulture mates for life and even the other vultures sometimes attack a fellow vulture who is 'fooling around' with the wrong vulture?

[mercury]

Did you know that the black vulture mates for life and even the other vultures sometimes attack a fellow vulture who is 'fooling around' with the wrong vulture?

 

 

Too bad more men weren't as virtuous as the lowly vulture

[timesjoke]

Too bad more men weren't as virtuous as the lowly vulture

 

Just men Merc?

[emkay64]

Yep...just the evil dirty men TJ. The bastards with penises, the destroyers of life and what have you.

 

I have a brightly colored snatch....it's rainbow, and shoots out edible glitter. Weeeeeeeee!!!!

[hugo]

I often wonder if a person deciding to undergo plastic surgery, had everyone around them saying..."please don't do it...I don't want you to change....I love everything about you"...if that came from spouses, friends and family...I wonder if they'd bother?

 

Instead most say "If it's what you want"...or "If it makes YOU happy".....those comments to me just sort of say ......yah...you could probably use some improving or basically saying it's great to surgically improve...I just wonder.

 

Hmmmm.......

 

Ya might consider gettin' that hump removed.

[mercury]

I limited to just men so you could have something to rally on about

[timesjoke]

I limited to just men so you could have something to rally on about

 

Thank you for your consideration, it is great to be thought of by such beautiful ladies

[emkay64]

Humans have flatter faces because of the evolution of a larger brain, which necessitated a change in skull shape, as well as some changes in mouth structure, the tongue, the muscles that support the tongue and the length of the throat as language developed.

 

The whole idea is that there was a co-evolution of the human flat face with breast shape, and thus there was evolutionary pressure on the shape of the breast to accommodate the infant. A flat face feeding off a flat chest = suffocation.

 

Breast are eroticized predominantly in the West. If you look at Africans, the breasts are for the baby, not the man.

[mercury]

I nursed all of mine and they managed to breathe

[timesjoke]

Humans have flatter faces because of the evolution of a larger brain, which necessitated a change in skull shape, as well as some changes in mouth structure, the tongue, the muscles that support the tongue and the length of the throat as language developed.

 

But would not the least intrusive adjustment to be just expand the brain back? Instead of a design change that caused a hundred changes to make it work properly, why not change just one thing and be done with it?

 

Your falling for the same thing RO and the rest of the evolution believers fall for...your looking backwards making what "is" sound reasonable with a lot of backflips but if nature teaches us anything it is that the lest complicated answer is the one that nature will follow, not the most complex.

 

 

 

The whole idea is that there was a co-evolution of the human flat face with breast shape, and thus there was evolutionary pressure on the shape of the breast to accommodate the infant. A flat face feeding off a flat chest = suffocation.

 

A great example of why the backward thinking is so flawed.

 

As Merc just said she had no issues breast feeding so there goes that idea completely out the window but there is more to it than that, if the babies needed the bigger breasts, then that means they would have died before hundreds of thousands of years went by to cause the evolutionary change.......this goes back to my point in the other thread, if the life needs to change to survive, then by the time evolution could kick in, it would be too late.

 

 

Breast are eroticized predominantly in the West. If you look at Africans, the breasts are for the baby, not the man.

 

I sure am glad I was born in America then, imagine not knowing about something that is so much fun to play with?

 

Never knowing what it is like to perform a motorboat?

 

Sad

[RoyalOrleans]

I spend a lot of time comparing one theory and another all in my attempts to look for the truth. In many cases I have found combinations of ideas and viewpoints bring me the most information instead of getting myself bogged down in any one person's thoughts of what "they" think the truth is, we are all humans, nobody is any better then anyone else if you take the time to educate yourself.

 

You're preaching to the choir.

 

Attracting and keeping a male is very important, but in all other life forms enlarged breasts are not one of the factors, not even in apes who many evolutionists believe we came from so why?

 

Ohh... this should be good.

 

Why? Looking foward instead of backward, why would nature believe this one form of life needed enlarged breasts when no other creature on the face of the planet needed them? Legs to walk on land, okay, air breathing lungs, okay that seems important......enlarged breasts? Not needed in apes, so there is no reasonable need for them in humans.

 

The future has not happened yet. What is there to learn of the future if the past is not understood first?

 

Idiot.

 

My point was to show how even science gets befuddled by breasts, but at the end of the day we men still love them

 

You're preaching to the choir, honey. I do not doubt a primal attraction to breasts through the process of sexual selection.

 

No, I believe most atheists are anti-religion so that drives them to the anti-religion science of evolution as their faith. Birds of a feather and all that. It fills your need to feel justified in rejecting Faith.

 

I am not anti-religion... I have no problem with one having faith and in contrast my lack thereof.

 

I think that most theists flock to the church for answers to the unanswerable and believe absurdities on a preconceived notion to dispell science.

 

Evolution is 2% hard data in the form of fossil records and 98% Interpretation, the person in control of the mind determins the Interpretation and if they want excuses to reject the notion of God, then their mind will provide the missing pieces to make that happen.

 

And where is your information on the experiments of creation?

 

The only way... the ONLY way that I will take you seriously is if you can prove hard evidence in that favor.

 

Now I will admit that this can also be true for someone wanting to blindly embrace the notion of God but there is nothing to show that certain elements of both are possible. This is where someone like me comes in with an open mind ready to accept both sides as having valid points and too see the limitations

 

I am still waiting on the proof on the experimentation that makes creation more than a pseudoscience?

 

So why not give human females the same thing? It obviously works. Why would humans have something never seen in other life forms? My point will always be looking foward, not backward.

 

This is where you are dead wrong.

 

Can we look at the Bible as how people should behave in future, if the tales are not preserved as moral witness of character?

 

Can we not learn about the horrors of the Holocaust so that they are not repeated?

 

Can we not learn about 9/11 so that we may prevent another terrorist attack on US soil?

 

All of these questions about the future are based... based on the interpretation of past events.

 

The future has not happened yet, but it can be predicted. You make it sound like the future can be guessed without study.

 

I can probably guess what Obama's motives are, but they can not be wholly predicted without looking at his past.

 

Did you know that the black vulture mates for life and even the other vultures sometimes attack a fellow vulture who is 'fooling around' with the wrong vulture?

 

Wow! Check out the big brain on TJ!

 

You act as though you found plutonium by accident!

 

What does the tell me?

 

That TJ watches the Discovery Channel.

[emkay64]

Merc may be smallish, but i can assure you they enlarged for feeding. Most women go up a few cup sizes when milk comes in. I'm a B normally....I went to a fukking E!!!!! :o after the birth....they enlarge for feeding (BTW it was grotesque, not pretty lol) Genetics preclude how large the breasts will be, but they enlarge to become more than adequate for feeding.

[timesjoke]

You're preaching to the choir.

 

As are you.

 

 

The future has not happened yet. What is there to learn of the future if the past is not understood first?

 

As evolution cannot look into the future and see where it is supposed to go, there must be a reason why certain traits would be inserted "at the time they were inserted".

 

 

 

Idiot.

 

Idiot? You can't ever keep yourself under control can you? You Atheists are way to angry and always look down your nose at anyone who does not swallow evolution blindly.

 

 

You're preaching to the choir, honey. I do not doubt a primal attraction to breasts through the process of sexual selection.

 

Again, your still stuck looking backward, you have to pry your mind out of that mode to truly look at evolution correctly as a theory.

 

 

How does the attraction to breasts happen if there are no breasts? Evolution would both have to insert the sexual desire for breasts and the breasts at the same time to be selected.......why would it insert it in the first place? What was the "need" that drove it and going back to my usual theme, if it takes thousands of years to fulfil a "need" then has not the need already passed?

 

 

I am not anti-religion... I have no problem with one having faith and in contrast my lack thereof.

 

I think that most theists flock to the church for answers to the unanswerable and believe absurdities on a preconceived notion to dispell science.

 

If you were not anti-religion you would not say such nasty things about those of faith and be looking down your nose at them.

 

 

And where is your information on the experiments of creation?

 

The only way... the ONLY way that I will take you seriously is if you can prove hard evidence in that favor.

 

I already said there are none, do you have a lack of attention issue?

 

Faith is like love, it cannot be measured or pointed out in any scientific way.

 

 

I am still waiting on the proof on the experimentation that makes creation more than a pseudoscience?

 

Creation and evoltion are exactly the same in that there has never been a way to show either is possible outside a person's mind......yet.

 

 

This is where you are dead wrong.

 

Can we look at the Bible as how people should behave in future, if the tales are not preserved as moral witness of character?

 

Can we not learn about the horrors of the Holocaust so that they are not repeated?

 

Can we not learn about 9/11 so that we may prevent another terrorist attack on US soil?

 

All of these questions about the future are based... based on the interpretation of past events.

 

The future has not happened yet, but it can be predicted. You make it sound like the future can be guessed without study.

 

I can probably guess what Obama's motives are, but they can not be wholly predicted without looking at his past.

 

Nice tirade but irrelivant, evolution cannot see into the future so how does it know to add enlarged breasts? Your running off into the distance talking about.....I don't know what.

 

My point you missed was why did evolution give something to human females that it did not find reason to give to any other creature on the planet?

 

 

Wow! Check out the big brain on TJ!

 

You act as though you found plutonium by accident!

 

What does the tell me?

 

That TJ watches the Discovery Channel.

 

You make it sound like watching the discovery channel is a bad thing.

 

Education can be found in many forms RO.

 

My point was that nature figured out how to make the black vulture work without adding enlarged breasts. Nature figured out how to make them lifelong mates and even get other vultures to help keep them from fooling around on each other. There are many other creatures that share the life long mate behavior, all without enlarged breasts so "looking foward", what was the reason to add enlarged breasts to women?

 

 

 

 

 

RO,

 

Before humans invented the microscope we had no idea there were things like bacteria in the world.

 

Did bacteria not exist prior to the microscope being invented?

 

Of coures not, even if we cannot perceive some things, that does not mean they do not exist. Your inability to not perceive God "might" be the same thing....I am just offering an idea, a possibility. I know I can perceive him, I feel his love that is every bit as real to me as the love I feel with my children, just a little different.

[RoyalOrleans]

What you just said.

 

Such a typical response of a narcissistic statist, inept at providing hard evidence for his cause and denies the other cause a voice out of fear of disobedience.

 

Declare your belief with evidence, experiments, an artlce, a fukken bumper sticker.

[mercury]

Yep... I did enlarge during pregnancy and breastfeeding. I overflowed a C cup if I stretched a feeding too long, where normally I barely fill an A.

 

the only time in my entire life that anyone ever said anything about my cleavage and being sincere about it was the night of my mom's retirement party. I left the kid at home and they grew progressively bigger through out the night. One of my aunts said something about how huge my knockers were