Vigilante or Hero?

[timesjoke]

Dad Andre Bamberski had doctor Dieter Krombach kidnapped over daughter's death | The Australian

 

 

A friend told me about this case in France/Germany and I had to shake my head.

 

 

A doctor kills a child when he drugged her to try and rape her. The father has to keep pressure on to even get the police to conduct a proper investigation. The doctor flees France to Germany and a trial happens in Franc convicting the doctor for manslaughter. The German authorities refuse to allow extradiction and after many years of trying to follow by the rules, the father has someone abduct the doctor from Germany and bring him back to France.........

 

And the father is in trouble for kidnaping.

 

 

 

Is this father in the wrong? Should he have dropped it or did he do right by bringing the doctor to justice even if the Government had given up?

[snafu]

Well he broke the law by having the doctor kidnapped but it would be well worth going to jail for.

[timesjoke]

Well he broke the law by having the doctor kidnapped but it would be well worth going to jail for.

 

 

I see it differently:

 

The law is there to serve the people but when the law stops serving the people then it is no longer deserving of pure respect. This man staying silent would have the doctor still in France assaulting children, both the original charges and this return to France was only possible by the lone actions of the father, not by the work of the Government to serve the public.

 

What this man did was send a message to the Government that the people will not stand by and watch them not do their jobs. The French Government should be ashamed of their refusal to serve the people.

 

 

If I was the Judge I would dismiss the charges against the Father because he was forced to find justice for his daughter because of a Government who did not give a sh!t about this case.

[ImWithStupid]

I would have to say he is neither.

 

He broke the law, but just because you break the law, doesn't mean you didn't do what is "right".

 

The letter of the law, and doing what is "right" aren't necessarily the same thing.

[eddo]

The French Government should be ashamed of their refusal to serve the people.

 

The French Govt, or the German Gov't?

 

The German's are the ones that wouldn't extradite the doctor.

 

If this came to me as a judge, my ruling would be:

 

"50 dollars and time served."

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[timesjoke]

The German government had no stake or responsibility to protect French people. The harm was done to a french child, not a German child.

[eddo]

The German government had no stake or responsibility to protect French people. The harm was done to a french child, not a German child.

 

What do you suggest France should have done?

[timesjoke]

What do you suggest France should have done?

 

Apply political pressue to enforce the european agreement to honor these kinds of legal issues. Germany just waved them off and being as nobody followed up I am thinking that was the agreement from the start.

 

From the looks of things France wanted to take no for an answer and was either looking for an excuse to drop it or was even in agreement with Germany as to how they wanted the public appearance to be.

[eddo]

Apply political pressue to enforce the european agreement to honor these kinds of legal issues. Germany just waved them off and being as nobody followed up I am thinking that was the agreement from the start.

 

From the looks of things France wanted to take no for an answer and was either looking for an excuse to drop it or was even in agreement with Germany as to how they wanted the public appearance to be.

 

other countries don't have to honor each others laws.

 

Hell, we've been after Roman Polanski for what- 20+ years and just got him?

 

I agree the Germany shoulda just handed him over to let the French judicial system handle it, but I don't see where France just rolled over and played "no contest" through this. Still not sure the blame lays on the head of the French Gov't.

[timesjoke]

other countries don't have to honor each others laws.

 

Hell, we've been after Roman Polanski for what- 20+ years and just got him?

 

I agree the Germany shoulda just handed him over to let the French judicial system handle it, but I don't see where France just rolled over and played "no contest" through this. Still not sure the blame lays on the head of the French Gov't.

 

Someone has to hold the ultimate responsibility eddo.

 

In this case it is the Government's responsibility to protect it's people and the french did not try to negotiate with Germany, they just accepted defeat without trying to take other steps.

 

 

The lack of extra steps from the French Government is what bothers me in this. I don't know for sure but it does look like there was some sort of behind the back deal to not push this issue for some reason.

 

 

 

The Polanski situation was completely different, the EU has extra steps to try and help these issues that America did not have. I find it interesting that France never tried to follow up on the refusal, that part stinks.

[eddo]

Someone has to hold the ultimate responsibility eddo.

In this case it is the Government's responsibility to protect it's people and the french did not try to negotiate with Germany, they just accepted defeat without trying to take other steps.

The lack of extra steps from the French Government is what bothers me in this. I don't know for sure but it does look like there was some sort of behind the back deal to not push this issue for some reason.

The Polanski situation was completely different, the EU has extra steps to try and help these issues that America did not have. I find it interesting that France never tried to follow up on the refusal, that part stinks.

Pardon my ignorance, but I am missing in the article originally posted where it said anything about the French not trying to get him back into their country for punishment.

 

Is there more to this?

[timesjoke]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am missing in the article originally posted where it said anything about the French not trying to get him back into their country for punishment.

 

Is there more to this?

 

You could try reading.........

[atlantic]

I know if it were my child. I would track the doctor down myself and set his ass on fire.

 

So as far as I'm concerned this man showed him mercy. I would not.

[eddo]

You could try reading.........

 

 

alright buttmunch:

PARIS: A retired accountant whose daughter was killed 27 years ago faces charges over the alleged abduction of the man he always blamed for her death. The man was left bound, gagged and injured outside a French court.

 

Andre Bamberski, 74, appeared before an investigating magistrate yesterday and acknowledged he ordered the kidnapping of German cardiologist Dieter Krombach.

 

Mr Bamberski, 72, is suspected of taking justice into his own hands over the German authorities' failure to act against Dr Krombach after a French court convicted him of manslaughter in his absence.

 

Dr Krombach, 74, was found trussed up with head injuries in the eastern city of Mulhouse on Sunday after an anonymous caller with an Eastern European accent tipped off police. Mr Bamberski, who is of Polish origin and lives near Toulouse, was in Mulhouse at the weekend.

 

In 1995, a Paris court sentenced Dr Krombach to 15 years in jail for the unintentional killing in 1982 of Kalinka Bamberski, 14, with the injection of a toxic substance. The girl had been visiting her mother who was living with Dr Krombach in the Bavarian town of Lindau.

 

The German authorities refused to extradite Dr Krombach because courts there had ruled that the cause of Kalinka's death was unknown. In 1997, in another case, he was convicted of sexually abusing a female patient. Mr Bamberski was convinced Dr Krombach had killed his daughter in an attempt to rape her. He campaigned until French judges ordered the exhumation of Kalinka's body.

 

This led to the Paris trial in 1995 in which Dr Krombach was convicted of "deliberate violence leading to death without the intention of killing". Francois Gibault, Mr Bamberski's lawyer, said: "He never gave up in the face of the inertia of the justice system. He is a brave, determined man but this manhunt had become an obsession. He had nothing left to lose."

 

Dr Kombach, who is legally a fugitive, is likely to be held in France to face a new trial.

 

Outside the court yesterday, a distressed Mr Bamberski said: "I reached agreement on October 9, 2009, with a man I had met near Munich for Dr Krombach to be taken to Mulhouse."

 

Where does it say anywhere that the French Gov't stopped trying to get him back, or accepted defeat without trying anything else. Or are you a pro at reading their minds too?

 

 

dumbass...

[timesjoke]

I know if it were my child. I would track the doctor down myself and set his ass on fire.

 

So as far as I'm concerned this man showed him mercy. I would not.

 

Exactly, this guy was still trying to let the proper people handle the situation, he only acted where his own Government refused to act.

 

 

 

 

 

eddo, if your going to make personal attacks I am not going to respond to you, grow up.

[eddo]

eddo, if your going to make personal attacks I am not going to respond to you, grow up.

 

you started the crap in here man, not me. I have tried to keep it civil and a forward moving discussion, then you come in with your "you could try reading..." baloney.

 

 

So I will ask again:

 

Where did you see that the French Gov't stopped trying. There was nothing in the article you originally linked to that said any such thing. If what you say is true, then my opinion on this may change. But if you are just making stuff up to back your thought process, then I will stand by my original stance- that Germany is just as to blame as anyone here.

[timesjoke]

you started the crap in here man, not me. I have tried to keep it civil and a forward moving discussion, then you come in with your "you could try reading..." baloney.

 

Telling you to go read is not calling you names eddo, I can't help it your too lazy to go look for more information on your own, if your only exposure to the world is what me or someone else posts a link to you will never know very much.

 

 

The doctor worked out of several different German embassies around the world including France so it seems to me that this political element was the main reason everyone was just blowing it off, remember the father had to fight just to get someone to properly test the body for the injection the doctor gave her.

 

 

Lastly the conviction and international warrant was done in 1995, I believe enough time has passed to allow for reasonable extradition discussion to happen if it ever was going to happen.

 

 

 

 

If you have some proof that the French Government was still in active negotioations for extradition I would be happy to see that.

[wez]

Telling you to go read is not calling you names eddo, I can't help it your too lazy to go look for more information on your own, if your only exposure to the world is what me or someone else posts a link to you will never know very much.

 

 

The doctor worked out of several different German embassies around the world including France so it seems to me that this political element was the main reason everyone was just blowing it off, remember the father had to fight just to get someone to properlly test the body for the injection the doctor gave her.

 

 

Lastly the conviction and international warrant was done in 1995, I believe enough time has passed to allow for reasonable extradition discussion to happen if it ever was going to happen.

 

 

 

 

If you have some proof that the French Government was still in active negotioations for extradition I would be happy to see that.

 

Yo Adrian.. shut the hell up..

[eddo]

Telling you to go read is not calling you names eddo, I can't help it your too lazy to go look for more information on your own, if your only exposure to the world is what me or someone else posts a link to you will never know very much.

 

 

The doctor worked out of several different German embassies around the world including France so it seems to me that this political element was the main reason everyone was just blowing it off, remember the father had to fight just to get someone to properly test the body for the injection the doctor gave her.

 

 

Lastly the conviction and international warrant was done in 1995, I believe enough time has passed to allow for reasonable extradition discussion to happen if it ever was going to happen.

 

Like I thought. Zoltar the Great has read the minds of the French Gov't and concluded facts not in evidence.

 

Might I suggest that your perceptions may not equal reality here?

 

 

If you have some proof that the French Government was still in active negotioations for extradition I would be happy to see that.

I'm not the one making a claim either way. the proof isn't up to me, it's up to the one making said claims.

 

and here: that'd be you.

[snafu]

The German authorities refused to extradite Dr Krombach because courts there had ruled that the cause of Kalinka's death was unknown. In 1997, in another case, he was convicted of sexually abusing a female patient. Mr Bamberski was convinced Dr Krombach had killed his daughter in an attempt to rape her. He campaigned until French judges ordered the exhumation of Kalinka's body.

 

I think the French can only ask for extradition. They can't just go in and get him.

[eddo]

I think the French can only ask for extradition. They can't just go in and get him.

 

Exactly Snafu.

 

What this doc did to the little girl (and apparently someone else) was horrible, but I don't know what else France could have done- other than ask.

 

Going in and forcibly taking him could have resulted in enough tension for WWIII.

 

Not sure this was worth it.

 

 

If someone commits a crime here in the states, and runs off to Canada or Mexico to escape punishment, those countries aren't under any obligation to extradite- that's how I understand it anyway.

 

I know some countries will completely refuse to extradite if the death penalty is being sought in a case.

[emkay64]

You say vigilante I say vagilawntay. Okay I don't but meh...whatever.

[timesjoke]

Like I thought. Zoltar the Great has read the minds of the French Gov't and concluded facts not in evidence.

 

Might I suggest that your perceptions may not equal reality here?

 

An absense of information is also something we can learn from eddo. You come home to a broken window, a big knife missing from the knife block, and the house is silent, do you pretend everything is fine?

 

Do you assume there is no intruder just because you can't see him "yet"?

 

 

The French's lack of results after so many years is a fact eddo, you can choose to believe that such a very long time without result is good, but I will choose to see that fact as significant.

 

 

I'm not the one making a claim either way. the proof isn't up to me, it's up to the one making said claims.

 

and here: that'd be you.

 

Your just taking shots, as usual.

 

Your claim is that the French was still working hard to gain extradition eddo, show me where they were and I will admit I was wrong.

 

 

Of course I am making a judgement call, just like the father made the judgement call that had him taking action where the French Government would not.

 

 

Are you saying the father was wrong?

 

 

 

I think the French can only ask for extradition. They can't just go in and get him.

 

There are litterally thousands of things the French Government could do, for example, the doctor was in France in connection with his work through the consulate, the first thing I would tell Germany is if they are going to refuse to respect French laws while in France, then maybe it is necessary to not allow German people into France? Maybe?

 

Respecting international law also includes trade agreements and if Germany has decided to ignore international laws by shrugging off this case then this same thing can apply to any claims they may have in France.

 

 

Remember, Germany has said that it is okay for their citizens to kill French citizens and they will not be extradited (with their actions), this is a huge issue and if France ignores this in this case, why would Germany ever respect French laws?

[eddo]

Your claim is that the French was still working hard to gain extradition eddo, show me where they were and I will admit I was wrong.

 

No, Captain Dense, that is not what I am saying.

 

 

My claim is that the article says NOTHING about any such thing, and that you, as usual, are going by facts not presented in evidence.

 

Like I said, show me where the French gave up on this man and his daughter and I will concede this point to you.

 

You are the one making that claim here, I'm just asking you to back it up.

 

as the movie says: Nut up or shut up.

 

 

 

Are you saying the father was wrong?

Yes, Kidnapping is wrong, even if the motives are good. Would I have done the same? Yeah, I probably would have, but 10 years ago...

[timesjoke]

No, Captain Dense, that is not what I am saying.

 

 

My claim is that the article says NOTHING about any such thing, and that you, as usual, are going by facts not presented in evidence.

 

Like I said, show me where the French gave up on this man and his daughter and I will concede this point to you.

 

You are the one making that claim here, I'm just asking you to back it up.

 

as the movie says: Nut up or shut up.

 

So you can claim anything you want without having to prove it but you want me to prove myself right with 100% irrefutable evidence?

 

Are you sure your not a Liberal eddo? Your certainly acting like one.

 

 

The lack of results is a fact right eddo? The French Government had no success after so many long years is something you can't just ignore eddo. The fact that the French Government did not even do a proper investigation until the father screamed and ranted about it is also a fact eddo.

 

 

So while my opinion of what this means might be based on slim evidence, at least there is "some" evidence supporting my point while your empty claim that the French Government was still trying very hard to procure this killer doctor from Germany does not have even one shread of proof to back it up.

 

I will take slim evidence over no evidence any day, lol.

 

 

 

Yes, Kidnapping is wrong, even if the motives are good. Would I have done the same? Yeah, I probably would have, but 10 years ago...

 

If you would have done the same thing then why is it wrong eddo? Just because of political games? Do you believe that "right" comes from the Government? The only reason this father had to act was because his Government refused to act. I already pointed out many examples of how the French Government could have used political means to force Germany to observe their international and even EU laws they have agreed to. There was more that could have been done that was not done....so the father had to act, it was a moral imperitive.

 

 

The father did not exact revenge on the doctor himself, he gave the doctor over to his Government instead so in my mind, that proves there was no wrong in this man's actions.