Public vent time

[wez]

F ck!!

 

Last week when I was down at my cousins playing some guitar.. another buddy came over.. I say.. hey man!! hows it going J?

 

"F ckin' horrible!! I'm getting divorced, losing the house, wife took all the money out of our account.. blew up my truck.. so.. I'm going to be homeless with no truck here soon. I don't know what the f ck I'm gonna do".

 

He does real estate inspections so obviously work hasn't been to steady for quite some time.. but.. I know he'll be ok.. I spent the night reminiscing and laughing with him trying to cheer him up.. but damn.. what do ya say? It'll be warm out soon? I hear there's dandy soup kitchens in the Twin Cities?

 

Then tonight I get home to this email from another buddy..

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Well I guess I will get right to it. I moved out last Sunday. I wanted to wait a week or so before telling anyone just for my own sanity. I'm staying at for now. He lives right in by Mark Park. I sure do miss E and E . It has been a tough week. She has given me very limited visitation which really sucks! I'm taking steps to change that. This will have to be decided in the courts. I have been keeping my cool and am very focused on gaining fair time with my children. I'm confident when this is layed out before a Judge that he/she will see that I'm not running from any responsibilities. They will see that I'm a willing Father (I hope!)

 

I will do my best to keep everyone posted. Call anytime. I switched my work hours to 3-11 for awhile as well.

 

By the way, E is doing really good. I will get some pictures out soon!

 

Love Ya All!

C

 

 

I've known both these guys since I was a teen.. E is my God Daughter..

 

I think about how hard it was for me to break away from the toxic cesspool I once called a relationship.. can't imagine if I'd of had to ask some asshole for permission first or beg some stranger to let me see my kids..

 

hurts to see friends in pain.. .. sh t.. hurts to see total strangers in pain.. F ckin' life..

 

The end

[mercury]

There's a lot of that going around...

 

There's not really much you can say, wez. Just be there for them. And listen if they want to vent.

[atlantic]

Damn. I'm assuming all these bitches are from MN correct. I told you how I have met 3 women here from MN, and every single one of them treats their husbands like dogs. Seems to me when the men are nice people they get screwed over and vice versa. Nice guys finish last you know that Wez. At least you got out unscathed.

[wez]

There's a lot of that going around...

 

There's not really much you can say, wez. Just be there for them. And listen if they want to vent.

 

Yeah.. I know.. Always do.. just hate that helpless feeling.. and seeing people suffer. Rather it be me..

 

I guess I could say.. Hey J.. I hear the new I35 bridge has a great view of the river!

 

I know he'll manage.. but damn..

 

 

Damn. I'm assuming all these bitches are from MN correct. I told you how I have met 3 women here from MN, and every single one of them treats their husbands like dogs. Seems to me when the men are nice people they get screwed over and vice versa. Nice guys finish last you know that Wez. At least you got out unscathed.

 

lol.. yeah.. they are.. but I sure aint gonna blame it on the MN bitches.. I feel bad for them too.. and the kids.. I know my friends ain't perfect.. C is a really nice guy.. and J.. well.. lets just say.. I wouldn't wanna be his wife either.. but I still love him. Ain't no one to blame cept themselves.. blame makes ya a bitter victim.. hope neither one takes that path.. unfortunately a road well traveled.

 

Nice guys finish last you know that Wez.

 

No.. I don't.. I'll never allow myself to believe that.. Ever!

 

The day I do is the day I die.. even if I "lived" another 40 years..

[timesjoke]

Well I was ripped apart when my wife took off for another man, she refused me all contact with our children until there was a court order for visitation. An emergency hearing still took over three months.....that is a long time to not see or speak with your children.

 

It is horrible to have that game played with you but unfortunately, it happens more often than not in broken relationships. The women feel their best way to punnish the man for not being who they wanted them to be is a lifetime of manipulation and games with the man's children.

 

 

 

Sad, I go through it all the time, and there is no easy way to handle it, you just have to have the strength to eat that frustration and accept it as part of life. Getting upset and saying things will only give her the ammunition to have all your visitations eliminated, and that is what they really want so don't give it to them.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as trends go, we live in a 'trash society' where we don't even fix televisions anymore, we just throw everything away and start over. Hell, people don't even get married before having children anymore, the relationships are fast and heated then die off before they can even think about getting married.

 

 

 

So now we have terms like "my baby daddy" that has made it into mainstream society and is considered normal.

 

 

 

 

Don't think any of this is going to get better any time soon Wez, we have let the genie out of the bottle.

[wez]

 

As far as trends go, we live in a 'trash society' where we don't even fix televisions anymore, we just throw everything away and start over. Hell, people don't even get married before having children anymore, the relationships are fast and heated then die off before they can even think about getting married.

 

So now we have terms like "my baby daddy" that has made it into mainstream society and is considered normal.

 

Don't think any of this is going to get better any time soon Wez, we have let the genie out of the bottle.

 

 

Really.. what difference is marriage gonna make? Pile on some laws to force people to stay together, or else?

 

Well.. things weren't so hot with the genie in the bottle either..

 

Too bad we can't go back to the good ole' days when a woman was considered a mans property backed up by laws, threats and stigma's...and typically had no means of being financially stable without a wonderful man around who, of course, never used it or violence to manipulate and control them..

[timesjoke]

Really.. what difference is marriage gonna make? Pile on some laws to force people to stay together, or else?

 

Well.. things weren't so hot with the genie in the bottle either..

 

Too bad we can't go back to the good ole' days when a woman was considered a mans property backed up by laws, threats and stigma's...and typically had no means of being financially stable without a wonderful man around who, of course, never used it or violence to manipulate and control them..

 

No need to try and pick a fight Wez, I have no desire in getting into a personal flame fest with you.

 

 

My point about marriage was not the act itself but the mindset of how people used to have long term goals of being together forever, that is no longer the case. We throw everything away at the first sign of it not being what we wanted it to be, and that mindset has moved to our relationships.

 

 

You speak of the past without any real knowledge of it yourself Wez, I saw the stay at home moms and there was no doubt in anyone's mind that it was the women, not the men who ran the home. My father never even signed his own paycheck. And if you dared to walk into a woman's home with dirty feet you would remember who the real boss was for a very long time after that, lol.

 

 

Both of my sisters had hope chests, they actually looked foward to getting married and raising a family Wez.

 

 

 

 

A comedian once said, that rasing children without a father was like driving your car with your feet, sure you can do it, but that does not make it a good idea.......

[atlantic]

Originally Posted by atlantic

Nice guys finish last you know that Wez.

 

 

No.. I don't.. I'll never allow myself to believe that.. Ever!

 

The day I do is the day I die.. even if I "lived" another 40 years..

I like that attitude actually

[mercury]

TJ- can I ask when this magical time period was when everyone stayed in marriage forever and ever? What was the approximate point in time in which it all changed and ended up in the sh!tter?

 

I'd like a point of reference before I argue a case based on my own family history which will probably do much to disprove the theories you've created around your own family experiences

 

My theory is that the only thing that's changed is the stigma attached to being divorced and the fact that women have the (constitutional) RIGHT to decide whether they'd like to stick with their bad decisons for a lifetime. There are many valid reasons for divorce.

[timesjoke]

There was no hard date, just a gradual change of attitudes to no longer try to work things out and to instead cut and run. My mother was 17 when she married my father, she was 73 when she passed away a couple weeks ago, that is 56 years together and believe me, they have had their fair share of problems during that 56 years.

 

 

I agree, there are many reasons a person can come up with to leave a relationship, no two humans will ever be able to live together and agree on everything, the question is if those people will put in the time to work through their issues and find solutions or instead run away from those issues. This was my point of the 'trash society' where our mindsets require instant gratification and will reject without thought anything that is not feeding our need for instant gratification.

 

 

If children are not involved, no big deal, the only people who suffer are those adults who made those decisions to cut and run, but once children are involved there are greater issues that should be considered. Once your making your children pay for your issues, or even using your children as a weapon to hurt your "baby daddy", I'm sorry to say that is not right.

 

 

 

Yes, a great deal of the issues changed once women felt more in control of their finances and future, child support laws and a market place that wanted the cheaper labor women represented. But I see the greatest change in the morals of women happend once abortion became accepted as a birth control method. Something about killing babies in the womb to escape taking responsibility for our actions has tainted our society for the worse in my opinion.

 

 

Now we even have the 'booty call' where a guy is not even expected to buy dinner and a movie before you "get lucky". Things certainly have changed in my lifetime. Just have sex and you each go your seperate ways, I guess some people see that as an improvement...........

[eddo]

Just after Christmas one of my buddies went home and told his wife he didn't love her anymore. She was devastated. They are now going thru counseling, but how do you overcome your spouse of almost 20 years telling you something like that?

 

 

then last week, a friend of mines dad emptied he and his wifes bank account and moved to England to be with a woman he met online.

 

women ain't the only jackasses out there Atlantic.

[timesjoke]

Just after Christmas one of my buddies went home and told his wife he didn't love her anymore. She was devastated. They are now going thru counseling, but how do you overcome your spouse of almost 20 years telling you something like that?

 

Just admitting your feelings have changed must have been significant. I am glad they are getting counseling and maybe they can find new ground to base love and respect on, relationships have to change because people change. The things we like, the things we believe are important, what excites us, what bores us, it really is easy to understand why someone would consider divorce.

 

 

And it is even more impressive when they don't take the easier choice and decide to work through it.

 

then last week, a friend of mines dad emptied he and his wifes bank account and moved to England to be with a woman he met online.

 

women ain't the only jackasses out there Atlantic.

 

You know, I have always wondered about this, I have seen many examples of men and women running off to be with someone else and the part that confuses me is the other person........

 

If the married person is willing to dump their mate to run away with you, what makes you think they will not fool around on you? Your involved with a person who cheats, obviously they are not a great catch in the first place.

[snafu]

Why do people get married anyway? Why do you have vows that promise to live together better or worse? People have always had divorces but marriage used to mean something. I'm going through a rocky time right now and it's killing me. I don't want to breath anymore!

[mercury]

My Grandfather used to tell me about his "booty calls"... there have always been willing women. He was also divorced in 1945.... and had a child out of wedlock. That child is my God Father and my mother's younger brother. He married a woman that had been previously married and divorced.

 

The woman Gramps divorced (technically, my grandmother, though I never really knew her) was married prior to marrying him. That marriage also ended in divorce.

 

The woman he had the child out of wedlock with? He eventually married her and they had 4 more children together... but she was also married & divorced prior to their relationship.

 

My husband's grandparents were divorced... all of them. So were his step grandparents.

 

His mother was divorced from the same man twice before she married her current husband. His biological father has been married & divorced several times. My husband has never met several of his 1/2 siblings.

 

Every single example mentioned happened prior to abortion being legal and women being welcomed into the work force.... and it only involves 2 families.

 

Many divorces didn't happen becaus people were so committed to staying together. They didn't happen because there very often wasn't any other option.

 

My husband's grandmother kind of managed to support her family... She kept a roof over their heads, but that was about all she could provide for them. She had a college education (pharmacist) and a job (pharmacy was a "man's" job, so she worked as a nurse) but they had no running water, no electricity, no transportation, stole clean clothing from clothes lines when they outgrew theirs and food from neighbors gardens. They survived. Barely.

 

Today women have choices. And just because someone made a poor choice, or even several of them, when they were young and stupid, doesn't mean that anyone should have to live with that choice for the rest of their lives.

[mercury]

Also, Atlantic: just because what YOU see is "a nice guy" doesn't mean he's a nice guy at home.

 

My father was a wonderful friend, but he sucked @ss as a husband and father.

 

His friends had nothing but praise for him. I lived with holes being punched through walls, lamps being thrown at my head, my bedroom door being kicked in.

 

Just keep in mind that what most people show to the outside world is their best face. They only pull out the ugly when the doors are shut and the curtains are drawn. Most @ssholes are too insecure to show their true colors to people who don't "have" to tolerate it.

[mercury]

And it is even more impressive when they don't take the easier choice and decide to work through it.

 

Divorce is never easy... and quite often NOT the "easier" choice. "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't."

 

Sometimes the "easier" choice is just sticking with the status-quo to make everyone else happy, keep them from judging you and keep trudging along.

 

Yes, there are people that enter into marriage for all the wrong reasons. There are also people who go into it with the knowledge and mindset that they can always divorce when/if it doesn't work out. But I think those people are a very small minority. I've never known any of them.

 

 

Snaf- Marriage still means something to me. I'm having a really difficult time right now, too. Looking at the choices I have in front of me and having to decide what I need to do for my kids, and for me, is the hardest and most heartbreaking thing I've ever been through.

[snafu]

Divorce still more prevalent now than it used to be. I understand your point but look at all the people divorce affected in those two families you just described.

It hurts and people shouldn't walk into marriage lightly.

[mercury]

Look at all the people who might not be here if those relationships had continued... It's kind of like that arguement about aborting Hitler or Beethoven. Pretty much pointless. It is what it is. They all survived the trauma.

 

I don't think any one of them entered into their marriages lightly. I think they also got out of them for valid reasons, though.

 

Gramps figured out his ex-wife was an alcoholic not capable of caring for her children shortly after the 2nd one was born. He tired of coming home and finding her passed out on the couch while their toddlers were unattended. He tired of her sneaking off to the bar while they slept and coming home to finding them left alone. He retained custody. She walked away with $1 in her pocket as a settlement. Her first husband, I imagine, figured out the same thing, minus the children, according to the divorce papers I found.

 

Grandma (2nd wife... the one that raised, but didn't birth my mother) was being abused by her first husband.

 

My Aunt was being physically abused.

 

They were all very young, but people normally marrie dyoung back then.

 

I don't know the reasons for the divorces on my husband's side, except for the one grandmother that barely supported 8 kids: He drank heavily & gambled everything they had away... including their home. He died an alcoholic, all alone in a flop house somewhere in Illinois. And his mother: Physical abuse, again.

 

You don't always know what you're marrying until you're married to it (no matter how long you've been together beforehand) or what that person will evolve into. The only way to really know what you're getting is through experience and the only way to gain this particular experience is to actually experience it.

 

Some people hide those ugly parts of themselves until it's "too late" because they know those parts are ugly enough to chase someone away.

 

For me... I'm glad I have a choice to do something about my bad decisions and the only trap that exists is the one I've made for myself.

[Chi]

I agree that the main reason people in the past stayed together more was out of convenience and because it was more frowned upon. Women put up with abuse because there weren't many women in the workforce and work options weren't many nor as well payed for women. Also if you were being abused you just didn't talk about it and there wasn't as much help to get out, like there is now. Plus it was more accepted back then.

[timesjoke]

Merc I feel bad for the situation that makes you feel bad but I imagine your still somewhat old school in your approach to trying to make things work and my point is how the "new" attitudes are not to work hard on anything.

 

 

As Snaf said, divorce is more prevalent now but even more than that, marriage is not an option for women at all. The fastest growing segment of society is the single, never wed mother, usually with two children.

 

 

If nothing has changed, why is it more and more women don't want fathers to go with their children? Are you saying women never wanted the men, just their money and now with child support they don't need the men?

 

 

Children without fathers in the home:

 

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes

85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes

80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes

70% of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes

85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes

 

 

 

There is a mountain of hard scientific study that proves divorce or otherwise little involvement of the father is very bad for chilkdren, especially girls:

 

"Among teenage and adult populations of females, parental divorce has been associated with lower self-esteem, precocious sexual activity, greater delinquent-like behavior, and more difficulty establishing gratifying, lasting adult heterosexual relationships. It is especially intriguing to note that, in these studies, the parental divorce typically occurred years before any difficulties were observed."

 

"Finally, girls whose parents divorce may grow up without the day to day experience of interacting with a man who is attentive, caring and loving. The continuous sense of being valued and loved as a female seems an especially key element in the development of the conviction that one is indeed femininely lovable. Without this regular source of nourishment, a girl's sense of being valued as a female does not seem to thrive."

[mercury]

Funny how I fit into your "hard scientific study", yet my parents "stayed together for the kids" and "tried to work it out".

 

My father was everything but "attentive, caring and loving", but he was there every night... OH wait... he was attentive! We had his full attention as he was hurling sh!t at us...

 

He also called my mother a c nt every chance he got. I was just a b!tch. That's where I learned what kind of "feminine value" I had.

 

It was toxic environment that created more issues than it solved.

[timesjoke]

Humans are too complicated to have a set 1 + 1 = 2 formula but you can look to certain trends to help figure out what is more likely to happen than not.

 

 

You say as a child you had a rough family life filled with abuse, so did your spouse, and now your contemplating a divorce yourself if I get your comment earlier correctly. I am sorry your situation is so bad but at least you are working very hard........most 'modern' couples do not try that hard Merc. I do not want any woman or man to stay in a relationship that is abusive, that is not what I am saying, and it does not even have to be marriage, I am not married to Tami, but I have a deep and solid committment to her, and it is that part many 'modern' couples do not have these days.

 

 

 

But again, it is the children who will pay the biggest price for divorce most of the time.

 

 

"There is some evidence that in our well-meaning efforts to save children in the immediate post-separation period from anxiety, confusion, and the normative divorce-engendered conflict, we have set the stage in the longer run for the more ominous symptoms of anger, depression, and a deep sense of loss by depriving the child of the opportunity to maintain a full relationship with each parent." ~ Joan Kelly, Ph.D

 

 

 

"Children reared by a divorced or never-married mother are less cooperative and score lower on tests of intelligence than children reared in intact families. Statistical analysis of the behavior and intelligence of these children revealed "significant detrimental effects" of living in a female-headed household. Growing up in a female-headed household remained a statistical predictor of behavior problems even after adjusting for differences in family income. ~ book:Economic Deprivation and Early Childhood Development

[mercury]

It's also the children that pay the price of dealing with a marriage that maybe never should have happened inthe first place.

 

Your first statement here was that people these days are too quick to walk away... quite often they don't run away fast enough.

 

Things are never as black and white as you seem to like them to be... there are lots of shades of grey between the two.

 

Bottom line: You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[atlantic]

Also, Atlantic: just because what YOU see is "a nice guy" doesn't mean he's a nice guy at home.

 

My father was a wonderful friend, but he sucked @ss as a husband and father.

 

His friends had nothing but praise for him. I lived with holes being punched through walls, lamps being thrown at my head, my bedroom door being kicked in.

 

Just keep in mind that what most people show to the outside world is their best face. They only pull out the ugly when the doors are shut and the curtains are drawn. Most @ssholes are too insecure to show their true colors to people who don't "have" to tolerate it.

No doubt. I'm well aware of that. I live with one of those. I truly know the type. The couple of women I were referring to both cheat on their husbands. One physically kicked her husband out of a moving pick-up truck one night because he asked for a pizza (she brags about it); the other will go into a rage if her husband doesn't do exactly what she says when she says it. Just a private joke between me and Wez that's all

[timesjoke]

It's also the children that pay the price of dealing with a marriage that maybe never should have happened inthe first place.

 

Your first statement here was that people these days are too quick to walk away... quite often they don't run away fast enough.

 

Things are never as black and white as you seem to like them to be... there are lots of shades of grey between the two.

 

Bottom line: You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

And is that not still the fault of the adults?

 

Both the adults decided to get together and either through not caring or being irresponsible made children with the other person when they should have never got together in the first place, hense the fastest growing segment of society being the never wed mother.

 

 

When women used to slow the process down and require men to jump through some hoops before 'putting out' there were less unwanted pregnancies and less divorce. Yes, I am saying it, men are dogs and have always wanted sex, that has not changed with men, but women not making the men work for it has changed.

 

"Booty call"

 

 

 

My point will always be that while we can make all sorts of excuses for why adults marry/divorce/or never marry, that is not really a big issue in life, but these same adults making babies without taking full responsibility for the welfare of their children "IS" a big issue with society.

 

Aduls hurt more than themselves with their own immature and irresponsible behaviors......and that is "black and white".