Women seeking abortions must view an ultrasound

[emkay64]

Okay..so it's the contention that...now let me get this straight.

 

Procedures should not be forced nor should payment be forced IF the person is morally sound. If however, the lifestyle choices are morally reprehensible in ANY way, then that person is not subject to the same medical care afforded to the general population?

 

In conclusion some are even willing to pay for forced procedures from their own tax dollars to pay for unnecessary procedures to afford punishment on the morally corrupt?

 

Am I correct?

[mercury]

It wasn't normal procedure when my skull was exposed, had several dozen stitches embedded and my hips were fukked.

 

It also wasn't part of the procedure when my husband fractured his face.

 

How about Craig, em? Did they do a rectal on him when that 4 wheeler landed on his face?

[emkay64]

It wasn't normal procedure when my skull was exposed, had several dozen stitches embedded and my hips were fukked.

 

It also wasn't part of the procedure when my husband fractured his face.

 

How about Craig, em? Did they do a rectal on him when that 4 wheeler landed on his face?

 

 

LOL..no they didn't Merc. In fact everything was full disclosure..they had to ask permission for everything. I was surprised.

[timesjoke]

 

This is an ABUSE! What you are missing is that I am not debating abortion at all. Remove abortion completely from the equation. Should you be forced to have a medical procedure that YOU don't want and be forced to pay for it. Take the abortion debate out completely! I am not debating abortion in the least.

 

Simply put:

 

Under your basic human rights should you have to pay for an ANY unwanted procedure and should you be forced to endure one you don't want if it is unessesary ? Again...abortion off the table.

 

Let me re-iterate...I am not debating Abortion. In no way am I interested in debating abortion. Abortion is not my intended focus, abortion just happened to be a part of the article. Leave abortion at the door. No abortion or abortion related contexts...just the bolded, brightly colored question...do not put abortion in the response...just the question posed above. I hope I have clarified...if not...please re-read at your leisure.

 

Yes you are debating abortion emkay, without abortion this is not a discussion. You can't seperate the two because one only exists because of the other. We only have the ultrasound because of 1.4 million babies being killed every year. As will all problems, they are caused by irresponsible humans and laws are created to respond to that irresponsibility.

 

This only goes into effect "IF" you want to kill a baby emkay, so the ultrasound is simply a part of the procedure to get the abortion. The abortion is voluntary as well as all parts of the process. I don't see you complaining that a hoover must be shoved up into the womb to have the abortion and that is because it is part of the procedure, a necessary part of the process. If getting a hoover shoved up there is not considered invasive, what is? The ultrasound is nothing compared to the hoover so I see no possible way it can be considered invasive in comparison. The same people who will kill the baby will be doing the ultrasound so they will not try to punnish or abuse the woman in any way. The entire process will still be 100% controlled by people who kill babies for a living, this is how they pay their bills so I have no concern in the slightest that this will ever be abused.

 

 

 

 

The "ONLY" thing that is changing in reality is the woman will see an image of the child she has inside her before she commands it's death. I don't have a single issue with that reality.

[wez]

Is being forced to have a rectal exam a normal part of getting stitches in your head? If so, he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. If not, this is completely not relevant to the conversation. Interesting diversion choice though.

 

Moron.. is an ultrasound a normal part of an abortion? What's your leg to stand on? You don't agree with abortion and want to punish women for their irresponsibility?

 

emkay has already said more than once the abortion isn't the issue.. most of us can see the issue.. it's about forcing morals/beliefs/judgments on somebody through punitive action..

 

Kinda tough for commies who want everyone to be and think exactly like them to see tho I guess..

[emkay64]

So I am correct in my assumptions then. Excellent..now I know where everyone stands. Things just get curiouser and curiouser.

[timesjoke]

Moron.. is an ultrasound a normal part of an abortion? What's your leg to stand on? You don't agree with abortion and want to punish women for their irresponsibility?

 

emkay has already said more than once the abortion isn't the issue.. most of us can see the issue.. it's about forcing morals/beliefs/judgments on somebody through punitive action..

 

Kinda tough for commies who want everyone to be and think exactly like them to see tho I guess..

 

How about you imposing a punnishement of your unfair and wrong accusations against him for not having the same lack of morals you have Wez?

 

You call anyone who does not agree with you names like commie as a punnishment too Wez. You don't seem to have any problem with the concept of forcing your beliefs and punnishments on those you think deserve it, but at the same time you try to put other people down for the same thing.

 

 

 

I remember asking you one time if you were stolen from would you call the cops. You admitted that you would call the cops so your completely supportive of the Government using force to protect you and your ideas, you just hate to allow the same thing for something you don't agree with.

[mercury]

Then ask yourself this TJ... Abortions have been performed for decades WITHOUT the use of ultrasound. How is it possible that this was able to occur if an ultra sound is medically necessary to the procedure?

 

I can answer that for you, so you don't have to spend the next hour typing your little fingers off: They aren't. They aren't even necessary to determine gestational age.

 

Try to separate "medically necessary" from "morally required" for this argument.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

"Second, you keep trying to make it "sound" like the procedure will be done like an "attack" or something. Why won't you admit that with the same people killing the baby doing the unltrasound there is no way they will try to hurt the woman with the procedure or abuse her in the slightest? This will be a requirement for an abortion, not a requirement for being pregnant so only those wanting to kill their babies will have to have this done and I see nothing wrong with making sure the mother at least sees her child before she commands it's death."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is an ABUSE! What you are missing is that I am not debating abortion at all. Remove abortion completely from the equation. Should you be forced to have a medical procedure that YOU don't want and be forced to pay for it. Take the abortion debate out completely! I am not debating abortion in the least.

 

Simply put:

 

Under your basic human rights should you have to pay for an ANY unwanted procedure and should you be forced to endure one you don't want if it is unessesary ? Again...abortion off the table.

 

Let me re-iterate...I am not debating Abortion. In no way am I interested in debating abortion. Abortion is not my intended focus, abortion just happened to be a part of the article. Leave abortion at the door. No abortion or abortion related contexts...just the bolded, brightly colored question...do not put abortion in the response...just the question posed above. I hope I have clarified...if not...please re-read at your leisure.

 

 

The thing that most people are ignoring, is that an abortion is an elective procedure. There are plenty of operations that require preparation. Before you can get prescription heartburn medicine, you have to have an endoscopy. Before you can have your wisdom teeth removed you have to have an x-ray. I believe that this is saying, before you have an abortion, you should have to have an ultrasound. If it is a part of the procedure, how is it a violation of anyone's rights? You're electing to have a procedure that you feel is best for you, and you have this ultrasound as preparation for that procedure.

[wez]

Yes you are debating abortion emkay, without abortion this is not a discussion.

 

The issue is about forcing morals/beliefs/judgments on another person through punitive action.. Not your idea of who is considered a valued life or what you think about abortion.. cuz I know you don't value all life equally.. Adolf Hitler valued precious life too.. if you were blonde haired and blue eyed..

 

 

Commies and nazi's stink..

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Moron.. is an ultrasound a normal part of an abortion? What's your leg to stand on? You don't agree with abortion and want to punish women for their irresponsibility?

 

emkay has already said more than once the abortion isn't the issue.. most of us can see the issue.. it's about forcing morals/beliefs/judgments on somebody through punitive action..

 

Kinda tough for commies who want everyone to be and think exactly like them to see tho I guess..

 

I tried to report this comment. It said I didn't have permission. This was uncalled for wez. How about you grow up and drop the name calling bit.

[emkay64]

This is a debate...all opinions are welcome...despite how we feel. I'm tagging everyone else to come up with something new to discuss.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Then ask yourself this TJ... Abortions have been performed for decades WITHOUT the use of ultrasound. How is it possible that this was able to occur if an ultra sound is medically necessary to the procedure?

 

I can answer that for you, so you don't have to spend the next hour typing your little fingers off: They aren't. They aren't even necessary to determine gestational age.

 

Try to separate "medically necessary" from "morally required" for this argument.

 

They are not medically necessary. I'm not sure that anyone is arguing that they are.

That doesn't take away from their relevance.

My thought is that they should still be required. At least let the lady make an informed decision.

 

 

Women are forced or coerced into deciding to have abortions everyday, be it by boyfriends, husbands, parents, friends, clinic doctors, etc. etc... Sometimes they don't really want to have an abortion, sometimes it's used like birth control. Having a procedure that allows them to see the baby that they will be murdering could strengthen the resolve of some of these women. It may change their minds about killing the miracle growing inside them, or it could make them decide that they're not ready for kids... There are several sides to this coin.

[mercury]

The thing that most people are ignoring, is that an abortion is an elective procedure. There are plenty of operations that require preparation. Before you can get prescription heartburn medicine, you have to have an endoscopy. Before you can have your wisdom teeth removed you have to have an x-ray. I believe that this is saying, before you have an abortion, you should have to have an ultrasound. If it is a part of the procedure, how is it a violation of anyone's rights? You're electing to have a procedure that you feel is best for you, and you have this ultrasound as preparation for that procedure.

 

 

The flaw in your argument there, RaE is that providing a medication meant to treat a specific disorder such as heartburn, won't work if someone actually has an ulcer.... and sets the Dr up for malpractice if there were an ulcer present. The medication that may suppress symptoms could be covering up something that can be immediately life threatening. (my father had 1/2 his stomach removed due to bleeding ulcers... if they had prescription heartburn meds back then, he would have bled to death if his other symptoms had been suppressed by them.)

 

In order to properly remove wisdom teeth, the Oral Surgeon needs to know a couple things: the angle at which those teeth are situated, in order to apply his pry bar the right way and avoid creating nerve damage in the process. How deep those roots go in order to know how MUCH pressure to apply.

 

Ultrasound does not provide additional information to anyone. We already know there's a pregnancy. We can determine gestation through several other methods.

[wez]

The thing that most people are ignoring, is that an abortion is an elective procedure. There are plenty of operations that require preparation. Before you can get prescription heartburn medicine, you have to have an endoscopy. Before you can have your wisdom teeth removed you have to have an x-ray. I believe that this is saying, before you have an abortion, you should have to have an ultrasound. If it is a part of the procedure, how is it a violation of anyone's rights? You're electing to have a procedure that you feel is best for you, and you have this ultrasound as preparation for that procedure.

 

Again.. it's about moral judgments and punitive action.. and it's not a medical necessity required for preparing for a procedure. An ultrasound is a procedure to check on the well being of a fetus.. make sure the cord isn't choking.. make sure it isn't breached.. etc.. and there is no law stating a women has to have one even if they are going to give birth.. they can also be used to look at structures in non-pregnant people.. I learned how to use one to help find veins for IV starts.. they can decline.. It's a choice the patient can make.. not to mention it's totally unnecessary for a fetus that will never be born.. Not part of the procedure.. part of imposing moral judgments on someone..

 

THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION. Which is what a few commies are ignoring..

[RegisteredAndEducated]

The story is in the text. True colors have brightly shined...

 

RaE, eddo, snafu, TJ = faux conservatives who want Big Government to intrude as long as it fits their agenda. Might as well cheer for Obamacare.

 

That's not true at all. I'm not for big government. I dont think that this should be payed for by tax payers. I also don't believe that ultrasounds should be forced on anyone, but I do believe that it should be part of the abortion procedure. If you elect to have an abortion, you should have to subject to all of the requirements.

 

I don't change my views to fit into some neat little box. I believe what I believe no matter what.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Again.. it's about moral judgments and punitive action.. and it's not a medical necessity required for preparing for a procedure. An ultrasound is a procedure to check on the well being of a fetus.. make sure the cord isn't choking.. make sure it isn't breached.. etc.. and there is no law stating a women has to have one even if they are going to give birth.. they can also be used to look at structures in non-pregnant people.. I learned how to use one to help find veins for IV starts.. they can decline.. It's a choice the patient can make.. not to mention it's totally unnecessary for a fetus that will never be born.. Not part of the procedure.. part of imposing moral judgments on someone..

 

THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION. Which is what a few commies are ignoring..

 

You want to get nasty? I can get nasty too...

 

Maybe you can't read wez... but the title of the thread is "Women seeking ABORTION must view and ultrasound".

 

It is about abortion. Now, emkay asked that we look at it from the stance that it is NOT about abortion. That's a different discussion. We may be able to do that.. but the main point of this thread is ultrasounds and abortion.

 

I figured with all of that school you finished, you would at least be able to read.

[wez]

That's not true at all. I'm not for big government. I dont think that this should be payed for by tax payers. I also don't believe that ultrasounds should be forced on anyone, but I do believe that it should be part of the abortion procedure. If you elect to have an abortion, you should have to subject to all of the requirements.

 

I don't change my views to fit into some neat little box. I believe what I believe no matter what.

 

I think the Sodomy law should be upheld and I believe you should have a weekly rectal exam to check for stretching and tears cuz yer a known butt offender.. and I believe TJ should be the butt police.. all supervised by eddo..

 

And yeah.. it is true.. IWS hit the nail on the head.. but he shoulda used the term commie instead of faux conservative.. it's what you guys are advocating for.. everyone must be/think like me.. or else..

 

And again.. this issue of this discussion is NOT ABORTION.

[wez]

You want to get nasty? I can get nasty too...

 

Maybe you can't read wez... but the title of the thread is "Women seeking ABORTION must view and ultrasound".

 

It is about abortion. Now, emkay asked that we look at it from the stance that it is NOT about abortion. That's a different discussion. We may be able to do that.. but the main point of this thread is ultrasounds and abortion.

 

I figured with all of that school you finished, you would at least be able to read.

 

Get nasty.. you wanna make moral judgments on people and punish them.. I'll make moral judgments on you and punish you..

 

I can read fine.. and also see the bigger picture.. I'm not stuck on my own moral beliefs and biases..

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I think the Sodomy law should be upheld and I believe you should have a weekly rectal exam to check for stretching and tears cuz yer a known butt offender.. and I believe TJ should be the butt police.. all supervised by eddo..

 

And yeah.. it is true.. IWS hit the nail on the head.. but he shoulda used the term commie instead of faux conservative.. it's what you guys are advocating for.. everyone must be/think like me.. or else..

 

And again.. this issue of this discussion is NOT ABORTION.

 

What does sodomy have to do with this? Stay on topic.

 

this is not communism... maybe you should look into what is communism before you start throwing the term around.

 

And again. the discussion is abortion. Try to keep up.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Get nasty.. you wanna make moral judgments on people and punish them.. I'll make moral judgments on you and punish you..

 

I can read fine.. and also see the bigger picture.. I'm not stuck on my own moral beliefs and biases..

 

So you have the right to punish someone? You have the right to judge?

 

I've never seen anyone more stuck on anything than you are on yourself.

[mercury]

I just noticed, in the original article, that it says they have the right to withhold information regarding fetal deformities. Now tell me, it's STILL about having all the information you need to make an informed decision.

 

Also missed this line the first time through: "requiring women to undergo an ultrasound just an hour before having a termination."

 

And tell me that gives them the time to sort through the new information they may or may not have received.

[wez]

What does sodomy have to do with this? Stay on topic.

 

this is not communism... maybe you should look into what is communism before you start throwing the term around.

 

And again. the discussion is abortion. Try to keep up.

 

This discussion is about IMPOSING YOUR MORALITY ON OTHER PEOPLE..Sodomy was/is Immoral and illegal in your state for 128 years .. try to see past your biases.. and communistic tendencies.. Communism is about total control.. and making everyone the same.. which is what you are advocating for.. Pressuring everyone to see morality as you do.. or else. And you have no problems instituting the services of the government to validate it for you.

 

Now.. in the case of imposing morality concerning sodomy.. what say you?

[RegisteredAndEducated]

This discussion is about IMPOSING YOUR MORALITY ON OTHER PEOPLE..Sodomy was/is Immoral and illegal in your state for 128 years .. try to see past your biases.. and communistic tendencies.. Communism is about total control.. and making everyone the same.. which is what you are advocating for.. Pressuring everyone to see morality as you do.. or else. And you have no problems instituting the services of the government to validate it for you.

 

Now.. in the case of imposing morality concerning sodomy.. what say you?

 

I say that sodomy has nothing to do with this discussion. Please don't bring it up in this thread again.

 

I'm not forcing anyone to see anything. I'm simply offering my side to this argument/discussion.

 

Myself and my ideals/beliefs do not fit into a neat little box, I certainly don't expect other people's to.

[timesjoke]

Then ask yourself this TJ... Abortions have been performed for decades WITHOUT the use of ultrasound. How is it possible that this was able to occur if an ultra sound is medically necessary to the procedure?

 

Where did I ever say it was 'medically necessary"?

 

Decades ago you did not have to sign a waver for treatment either, that waver is not "medically necessary" but every woman getting an abortion has to fill one out as part of her procedure.

 

 

 

I can answer that for you, so you don't have to spend the next hour typing your little fingers off: They aren't. They aren't even necessary to determine gestational age.

 

Try to separate "medically necessary" from "morally required" for this argument.

 

We are talking about the law Merc.

 

All laws are based on morals, you cannot seperate morals from this discussion because it was moral values that prompted the law. Well it was actually the lack of morals attached to the abortion methods that prompted concern by almost all Americans who do not belive an abortion should be treated like a wart removal.

 

 

 

 

Responsibility Merc. Without the irresponsible behaviors to create the unwanted life in the first place, we are not having this discussion and we certainly do not have this law. Your trying to blame the fireman for the fire.

 

 

 

 

Wez, your the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. You impose tyour moral values to justify nasty attacks all the time, but that is okay because it is "you".

 

 

 

Yes, this law is exactly like every other law in America. Murder is illegal because the morals of society says it is wrong. Abortion for irresponsibility reasons is also wrong based on society but tiny segments of people like yourself have been very successful to keep a reasonable moral standard from being put into place. Your the one who is speaking from biase Wez because you killed your own child. Of course you will never see morals connected to this issue because you have none.