Women seeking abortions must view an ultrasound

[mercury]

Stop with the pissing match, wez... RaE hasn't been disrespectful of anyone's opinion. He does still live in a place where we all have the right to disagree.

[eddo]

I do not think people should have medical procedures forced on them. If I don't want to go tot he doctor and get the weird growth on my leg looked at that is my prerogative. If it ends up costing me my leg or my life, well then, that was my own fault.

 

 

 

But, I also do not think that unborn babies should be murdered just because mommy and daddy are too irresponsible to handle the little tike. I think the fact that another life is involved here changes the discussion immensely.

 

Removing abortion from this debate would make it a completely different debate, and I would be all for patients being able to decide what procedures they want done to themselves.

 

I think the unborn baby should have more of a voice to protect it and give it a chance at life, and if an unltrasound helps jr to have a voice, then I am all for it- and like I said, I would rather my tax money go for that rather than planned parenthood (which it currently does.)

Ideally, my tax $$ wouldn't pay for any of it, as RaE has said- this is a completely elective and preventable procedure. Don't want an untrasound? Don't have an abortion. Don't get pregnant. Be more responsible for yourself and who you sleep with. Accept that responsibility if it comes your way. Make the necessary changes to your life to give your baby a chance for a life of it's own.

 

 

I can agree with Merc that one hour before the abortion is not enough to process information gathered. Make it a week or so, and I'd be more comfortable with it. It should be more than a "look at the little life that you are about to snuff out" kind of thing.

 

 

 

For the moral argument regarding abortion, I say I agree with TimesJoke: Why is it wrong to murder anyone in this country, except an unborn baby? Why would I go to jail hitting my wife in the belly and murdering my wifes baby, but she won't if she decides to sucks it's brains out with a super powered vacuum cleaner?

[wez]

I say that sodomy has nothing to do with this discussion. Please don't bring it up in this thread again.

 

I'm not forcing anyone to see anything. I'm simply offering my side to this argument/discussion.

 

Myself and my ideals/beliefs do not fit into a neat little box, I certainly don't expect other people's to.

 

 

I say it totally relates to this topic.. It's about imposing morality on people.. Sodomy is immoral.. you need to be punished.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I say it totally relates to this topic.. It's about imposing morality on people.. Sodomy is immoral.. you need to be punished.

 

You would say that, and you'd be wrong. Have I made a moral argument about this subject so far? Have you read any of my replies? I think not.

 

Sodomy is no more immoral than fellatio or intercourse. Maybe you should open your eyes some.

 

oh, and btw, when I was performing 'sodomy', it was legal in my state. Why should I be punished again?

[emkay64]

I do not think people should have medical procedures forced on them. If I don't want to go tot he doctor and get the weird growth on my leg looked at that is my prerogative. If it ends up costing me my leg or my life, well then, that was my own fault.

 

 

 

But, I also do not think that unborn babies should be murdered just because mommy and daddy are too irresponsible to handle the little tike. I think the fact that another life is involved here changes the discussion immensely.

 

Removing abortion from this debate would make it a completely different debate, and I would be all for patients being able to decide what procedures they want done to themselves.

 

I think the unborn baby should have more of a voice to protect it and give it a chance at life, and if an unltrasound helps jr to have a voice, then I am all for it- and like I said, I would rather my tax money go for that rather than planned parenthood (which it currently does.)

Ideally, my tax $$ wouldn't pay for any of it, as RaE has said- this is a completely elective and preventable procedure. Don't want an untrasound? Don't have an abortion. Don't get pregnant. Be more responsible for yourself and who you sleep with. Accept that responsibility if it comes your way. Make the necessary changes to your life to give your baby a chance for a life of it's own.

 

 

I can agree with Merc that one hour before the abortion is not enough to process information gathered. Make it a week or so, and I'd be more comfortable with it. It should be more than a "look at the little life that you are about to snuff out" kind of thing.

 

 

 

For the moral argument regarding abortion, I say I agree with TimesJoke: Why is it wrong to murder anyone in this country, except an unborn baby? Why would I go to jail hitting my wife in the belly and murdering my wifes baby, but she won't if she decides to sucks it's brains out with a super powered vacuum cleaner?

 

You should have a choice in the way you are to be treated in any instance. You can't decide who is moral and who isn't..because all our positions are so varied. That's why we have the freedoms we do. Remove one and all are fair game. I specifically chose this because I knew it would be difficult to separate the two. It's inflammatory to be sure, but the underlying theme is what I am aiming at..not abortion per say. And the procedure they are talking about is designed to instill guilt and also to prevent a woman from making an informed decision. Withholding info about physical deformities is about erasing any chance at the termination being justifiable. It's unfair and unnecessary. If it's okay for a woman getting an abortion to be treated this way, then we can expect alcoholics, gay people, overweight people, or anyone else deemed morally unsound to be treated in the same manner. It's a slippery slope.

 

BTW...drinking, smoking, drugs and prostitution all have laws attached...and it still continues despite the number of people that die every year because of them. Forcing people in laws governing their bodies just force people to find better ways at avoiding the law...most of them horrible.

[wez]

You would say that, and you'd be wrong. Have I made a moral argument about this subject so far? Have you read any of my replies? I think not.

I believe that having an abortion should be as miserable as possible.~ RaE

 

Why do think that? Do you think it's morally wrong? Or do you just like to see women suffer?

 

Sounds like a moral judgment to me..

 

Sodomy is no more immoral than fellatio or intercourse. Maybe you should open your eyes some.

That's your opinion.. Your community seemed to think differently for 128 years..

 

oh, and btw, when I was performing 'sodomy', it was legal in my state. Why should I be punished again?

Oh.. and btw.. abortion is legal.. why do you think women should be punished again?

[eddo]

You should have a choice in the way you are to be treated in any instance. You can't decide who is moral and who isn't..because all our positions are so varied. That's why we have the freedoms we do. Remove one and all are fair game.

 

my stance isn't based on the morality of anyone. You wanna screw around, have at it. You wanna do drugs, fine.

 

My stance is that there is more than one life to take into consideration here, and that life should have just as much of a chance to succeed as it can get. The very existence of the one that cannot speak or protect for itself trumps the "choice" of the one that can, once that one that can has made the choice to have sex.

 

 

my moral stance is:

Abortion as a form of birth control is about the saddest thing that we as a society have let happen. Murdering an innocent life, simply because we don't want to be bothered is sick and disgusting- and completely irresponsible.

[emkay64]

my stance isn't based on the morality of anyone. You wanna screw around, have at it. You wanna do drugs, fine.

 

My stance is that there is more than one life to take into consideration here, and that life should have just as much of a chance to succeed as it can get. The very existence of the one that cannot speak or protect for itself trumps the "choice" of the one that can, once that one that can has made the choice to have sex.

 

 

my moral stance is:

Abortion as a form of birth control is about the saddest thing that we as a society have let happen. Murdering an innocent life, simply because we don't want to be bothered is sick and disgusting- and completely irresponsible.

 

I don't disagree with your stance on abortion at all. I am saying....eh it doesn't matter never mind.

[mercury]

For the moral argument regarding abortion, I say I agree with TimesJoke: Why is it wrong to murder anyone in this country, except an unborn baby? Why would I go to jail hitting my wife in the belly and murdering my wifes baby, but she won't if she decides to sucks it's brains out with a super powered vacuum cleaner?

 

Well there you're getting into a whole other debate, and it would be: at what point does life begin?

 

Not everyone believes that life begins at the moment of conception... if that were the case, everyone against abortion would also be against hormonal birth control methods.

 

I'll school you on that a little bit Most hormonal forms of birth control do not prevent ovulation or stop a sperm from penetrating the ovum wall. They create a hostile environment within the uterus which prevent the egg from implanting into the uterine wall and creating textural changes in cervical secretions that also help prevent this. If there is no implantation, a fertilized egg will be passed out of the body with the next menstrual cycle.

 

If you believe that life begins when that sperm and egg collide, then you should also oppose the most convenient and widely used means in which people try to prevent it.

 

My own belief is that it's not a pregnancy until that egg implants itself in the uterine wall. I'm not opposed to birth control, but found it didn't work for me.... so I have 3 little surprises

 

Then there's the whole: a fetus is a "parasite" on the "hosts" body.

(please don't take that offensively... it's technically accurate, since that young fetus cannot survive outside the womb.)

 

Many believe that until that life is viable on it's own accord, is not technically a life until it can.

(also not my personal belief, but I can understand how some may feel this way, especially those without a belief in a higher power.)

 

So, this becomes a matter of whether or not a woman (the HOST) would prefer to allow that "parasite" to grow into a fully developed human baby, or remove it because she's not up to hosting it for, for whatever reason, over the next 9 months.

 

If she decides she's up to being a host, it's not someone else's place to take that away from her.

If she decides she's not up to it, she has the right to govern what happens to her own body.

[wez]

Wez, your the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. You impose tyour moral values to justify nasty attacks all the time, but that is okay because it is "you".

 

Calling someone a moron is a nasty attack? Whatever.. call the morality police.. they can give me an ultrasound..

 

Your the one who is speaking from biase Wez because you killed your own child. Of course you will never see morals connected to this issue because you have none.

 

The issue is imposing morality on other people.. not abortion.. and how can I impose my morals to justify my nasty attacks if I have none? Please explain..

[wez]

I just noticed, in the original article, that it says they have the right to withhold information regarding fetal deformities. Now tell me, it's STILL about having all the information you need to make an informed decision.

 

Also missed this line the first time through: "requiring women to undergo an ultrasound just an hour before having a termination."

 

And tell me that gives them the time to sort through the new information they may or may not have received.

 

Excellent point merc.. I pointed it out on the first page and Tori was the only one to even acknowledge this little tidbit which further proves the intention is to impose morals and punish...

[timesjoke]

If it's okay for a woman getting an abortion to be treated this way, then we can expect alcoholics, gay people, overweight people, or anyone else deemed morally unsound to be treated in the same manner. It's a slippery slope.

 

BTW...drinking, smoking, drugs and prostitution all have laws attached...and it still continues despite the number of people that die every year because of them. Forcing people in laws governing their bodies just force people to find better ways at avoiding the law...most of them horrible.

 

None of those other things involve killing a baby.

 

So considering your possition that just because bad things still happen even with laws against them you believe we should not have the laws? Should murder no longer be illegal because murders still happen even though there are laws making murder illegal?

 

 

I say we should never stop trying to make things better, never give up. Why? Because giving up on society means we give up on our children's future. I as a parent want a better world for my kids to live in, turning a blind eye to wrong is wrong itself.

 

 

 

 

my moral stance is:

Abortion as a form of birth control is about the saddest thing that we as a society have let happen. Murdering an innocent life, simply because we don't want to be bothered is sick and disgusting- and completely irresponsible.

 

Well said sir, with all the great things we have created with our modern times, we seem to have also created the most imoral society possible at the same time when people can justify killing their own children just because they were too lazy to use protection.

 

 

 

Well there you're getting into a whole other debate, and it would be: at what point does life begin?

 

Not everyone believes that life begins at the moment of conception... if that were the case, everyone against abortion would also be against hormonal birth control methods.

 

This is why we don't use any one person's view on the subject but instead look to everyone to voice their opinions and try to find common ground for things like this law.

 

Almost everyone in America agrees that abortions for irresponsible reasons should be restricted at least a little bit. Almost all people find killing babies in the womb to be horrible but tiny segments of society have blocked every attempt to bring the abortion issue into compliance with what 90% of Americans want for our society.

 

 

 

So, this becomes a matter of whether or not a woman (the HOST) would prefer to allow that "parasite" to grow into a fully developed human baby, or remove it because she's not up to hosting it for, for whatever reason, over the next 9 months.

 

If she decides she's up to being a host, it's not someone else's place to take that away from her.

If she decides she's not up to it, she has the right to govern what happens to her own body.

 

If she did not want the "parasite" growing inside her she could also "choose" to use protection.....right?

 

 

In every discussion about abortion the pro-abortion crowd always refuses to admit that the woman did have a choice, a choice that was made "before" the baby was created.

 

 

 

 

No, the abortion is not a choice about being pregnant, the abortion is the action taken to get out of taking responsibility for the choice already made.

 

 

 

 

 

By bad Wez, I was wrong, you do have morals, unfortunately in the area of abortion and respecting the miracle of life your morals are corrupted and bad because you made a rash decision to pressure your girlfriend to get an abortion so you would not be trapped into a relationship you were wanting to get away from.

 

But you know what is interesting?

 

You were upset at being in that relationship, hated the girl, but you were still having unprotected sex and created a baby with her. Your the very picture of irresponsibility I am talking about in connection with this issue Wez.

[wez]

By bad Wez, I was wrong, you do have morals, unfortunately in the area of abortion and respecting the mirical of life your morals are corrupted and bad because you made a rash decision to pressure your girlfriend to get an abortion so you would not be trapped into a relationship you were wanting to get away from.

 

But you know what is interesting?

 

You were upset at being in that relationship, hated the girl, but you were still having unprotected sex and created a baby with her. Your the very picture of irresponsibility I am talking about in connection with this issue Wez.

 

Good thing you're not my morality judge.. and I'm immune to guilt tactics from narcissistic control freaks.. and nothing you say is true..

 

And like I told you before.. we were using birth control.. it failed.. even if we weren't.. none of your biz.. you aint my judge/jury/executioner no matter how bad you wanna be.. you're nothing but a pathetic soul who can only glean a fleeting glimmer of pleasure from others pain.. you prove it time and time again.. You have my sympathy.. as does everyone who comes into contact with you.

 

Hey TJ.. Is your son respecting the miracle of life or learning how to end it without a shred of emotion like you did?.. so it's inside the uterus precious miracle.. outside the uterus KILL KILL KILL?

[mercury]

Would the two of you care to take a step back and compose yourselves??

Looks like you could both use a break.

[eddo]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

 

 

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

 

 

Merc, excellent point. Different people do differ on when life begins. I believe life starts at conception. I have no issue with preventing pregnancy, but I do have issues with ending it after it has happened. In my eyes, God has decided that a life should begin (thus why birth control isn't 100% effective) so to stop that is against His plan.

 

Thus why I think it is so important for us to try to prevent abortions as much as humanely possible.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I believe that having an abortion should be as miserable as possible.~ RaE

 

Why do think that? Do you think it's morally wrong? Or do you just like to see women suffer?

 

Sounds like a moral judgment to me..

 

I don't see moral in there anywhere. My personal opinion is that abortion should not be easy, hence it should be as miserable as possible. Do you need more clarification on that somehow?

 

That's your opinion.. Your community seemed to think differently for 128 years..

Yeah... and they don't now... your point?

 

 

Oh.. and btw.. abortion is legal.. why do you think women should be punished again?

 

I don't believe I've said anything about punishment in this thread (if i'm wrong, somebody please point out the post).

I have an objection to the fact that it is legal. I certainly never said that an ultrasound should be a punishment.

[wez]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

 

Apparently.. I was surprised TJ waited this long to bring up my personal life.. kinda proud of him actually.. he appears to be getting better.

 

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

 

Ok.. I'm sorry I agreed with IWS's assessment and called you commies .. and called RaE a moron.. hugs

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Well there you're getting into a whole other debate, and it would be: at what point does life begin?

 

Not everyone believes that life begins at the moment of conception... if that were the case, everyone against abortion would also be against hormonal birth control methods.

 

I'll school you on that a little bit Most hormonal forms of birth control do not prevent ovulation or stop a sperm from penetrating the ovum wall. They create a hostile environment within the uterus which prevent the egg from implanting into the uterine wall and creating textural changes in cervical secretions that also help prevent this. If there is no implantation, a fertilized egg will be passed out of the body with the next menstrual cycle.

 

If you believe that life begins when that sperm and egg collide, then you should also oppose the most convenient and widely used means in which people try to prevent it.

 

My own belief is that it's not a pregnancy until that egg implants itself in the uterine wall. I'm not opposed to birth control, but found it didn't work for me.... so I have 3 little surprises

 

I think I'm going to go with this one too. I think that it could be argued that this is when life really takes hold. The problem is that non-viable eggs can latch onto the wall as well and miscarriage can happen. I also don't have an opposition to birth control. But if a viable egg can't hack it in the womb naturally, it's not really a life anyway. Conception is defined as when the swimmer gets into the egg? I think we need to upgrade the definition to this.

 

 

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

 

 

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

 

 

Merc, excellent point. Different people do differ on when life begins. I believe life starts at conception. I have no issue with preventing pregnancy, but I do have issues with ending it after it has happened. In my eyes, God has decided that a life should begin (thus why birth control isn't 100% effective) so to stop that is against His plan.

 

Thus why I think it is so important for us to try to prevent abortions as much as humanely possible.

agreed. let's get back on topic.

[timesjoke]

are we really back to calling each other murderers???

 

 

please Wez and Tj, knock it off. this is actually a pretty decent debate, so lets stick to the topic, please? Name calling, attacking, and fgetting sidetracked will get us nowhere, and we all know that...

 

lol, I did what I wanted to do, Wez started in on his attack people caling them names and such just because they do not agree with him. Wez started it so I showed him for the hypocrite he is. Once he was proven to be wrong, did he admit it or did he instead turn up the volumn on his attacks even more? I have to say his out of control rant/attack was enough to almost make me piss myself laughing at him. When I was a young man we used to call guys like him a 'push button b_tch'.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as the debate is concerned, other than Wez and anna calling people names I would say this is a great discussion. I love to have challenging debates.

 

 

Emkay, don't think I don't understand your point, I am just saying that certain things like the taking of life tend to change the severity of the problem, and that changes the strength of the needed response to the problem. The one thing I would like to see you at least comment on is how all laws are based on the moral foundations society in general wants, at least in theory even though lawyers tend to derail those intentions on both sides sometimes. If we accept that laws are there for things like murder because society as a whole believes murder is immoral, then why not understand that this new law is actually no different? We kill some people for breaking the morals of society, if the death penalty is not considered to intrusive in our lives, then we have established that it is proper for Government to intrude, the question then becomes what morals do we want Government to support?

 

Killing in all areas is a great concern in America, except when a mother wants to kill her child. If a man gives a woman a drug to cause an abortion, that is considered murder in most States, but a woman kills the same baby and that is even applauded as a great freedom for women.

 

Same dead baby, different reactions based on "who" killed the child.

[snafu]

Yes TJ same dead baby. Just like the Laci/ Connor murders.

 

They're trying to draw this distinction that says that when it comes to the taking of the life of Connor Peterson -- the child, the 8-month unborn child that Laci Peterson was carrying -- that it was not voluntary. In other words, the termination of the life was by force, was by threat and-- apparently, the allegation of course being that this was a murder. So, the distinction that is drawn in the law is, "Well, that's different than, say, an abortion, which is a voluntary procedure that someone undergoes." But this raises a point which is putting the National Organization for Women in a position they cannot get out of. And that is, why is it murder in one case and in another case it's a right enshrined in stone in the Constitution? And that's what I call the "abortion distortion" factor. The fact of the matter is, it's not voluntary for the unborn child. And we know from medical evidence, that there's fetal pain experienced.

 

 

http://www.aclj.org/...ead.aspx?ID=540

[wez]

lol, I did what I wanted to do, Wez started in on his attack people caling them names and such just because they do not agree with him. Wez started it so I showed him for the hypocrite he is. Once he was proven to be wrong, did he admit it or did he instead turn up the volumn on his attacks even more? I have to say his out of control rant/attack was enough to almost make me piss myself laughing at him. When I was a young man we used to call guys like him a 'push button b_tch'.

 

 

 

 

 

As far as the debate is concerned, other than Wez and anna calling people names I would say this is a great discussion. I love to have challenging debates.

 

 

Whatever.. why would I expect Mr. Personal Responsibility to take ever take personality responsibility.. Out of control rant/attack? yeah.. that happened..

 

Boohoo.. My victimhood never ends.. I create my delusions out of thin air and relentlessly repeat them into reality because I need other people to validate them for me.. or else

 

When I was a young man we used to call guys like you a psycho.. matter of fact.. still do.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

Whatever.. why would I expect Mr. Personal Responsibility to take ever take personality responsibility.. Out of control rant/attack? yeah.. that happened..

 

Boohoo.. My victimhood never ends.. I create my delusions out of thin air and relentlessly repeat them into reality because I need other people to validate them for me.. or else

 

When I was a young man we used to call guys like you a psycho.. matter of fact.. still do.

 

You've got you down to a 'T'.

[wez]

You've got you down to a 'T'.

 

I take back my apology.. you are a moron..

_____________________________________________

 

As far as the debate the was concerned.. most people could see the issue for what is was and were in total agreement.. then we had a few that never once addressed the real issue due to personal bias, faux conservatism and an overwhelming desire to punish those who don't meet their moral standards.. and clearly showed they are for government imposition when it fits their personal agenda. Just like IWS pointed out after the actual debate was well over..

 

 

Well done emmy.. great post.. quite an interesting snapshot into the folks around here.. Had a blast.

[ImWithStupid]

The thing that most people are ignoring, is that an abortion is an elective procedure. There are plenty of operations that require preparation. Before you can get prescription heartburn medicine, you have to have an endoscopy. Before you can have your wisdom teeth removed you have to have an x-ray.

 

I'm calling bullshit here. That is obviously a wholly unsubstantiated statement. The Dr. or Dentist may suggest one, and it may be best practice, but if you really want that tooth pulled, they would do it without an x-ray.

 

There isn't a law requiring those procedures.

 

 

I believe that this is saying, before you have an abortion, you should have to have an ultrasound. If it is a part of the procedure, how is it a violation of anyone's rights? You're electing to have a procedure that you feel is best for you, and you have this ultrasound as preparation for that procedure.

 

You're electing to have a procedure, an ultrasound isn't a requirement to perform the procedure. It's back door morals being shoved down someone's throat, no different than laws against pornographic magazines or dancing like in Footloose.

[RegisteredAndEducated]

I take back my apology.. you are a moron..

_____________________________________________

 

As far as the debate the was concerned.. most people could see the issue for what is was and were in total agreement.. then we had a few that never once addressed the real issue due to personal bias, faux conservatism and an overwhelming desire to punish those who don't meet their moral standards.. and clearly showed they are for government imposition when it fits their personal agenda. Just like IWS pointed out after the actual debate was well over..

 

 

Well done emmy.. great post.. quite an interesting snapshot into the folks around here.. Had a blast.

 

Again with the personal attacks?

 

You were in total agreement with yourself. I didn't see anybody else agreeing with you.

 

Debate was over? We've been debating the whole time.