Arizona State Senator responds to Immigration

[timesjoke]

Great point eddo, and one radical liberals like Bender will never grasp......

 

 

 

So Bender, you want the illegals sent home, but you do not support any law or action that would actually do that?

 

 

Your the one who wants his cake and eat it too, we can't send them home if we are handcuffed by liberals like you who will not allow anyone to be asked if they are here illegally. So in fact you "DO NOT" want them sent home because you directly block every attempt to do it in reality.

 

 

 

I have identification on me every day, I have no problem producing it if an officer asks me to, no problem. I produce my identification to vote, again I have no problem with that.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's use a tiny bit of common sense here Bender, if the illegal person can't speak english and can't produce identification, you really believe it is wrong to then start wondering if he is illegal? Really?

[phreakwars]

I believe it is wrong to ask for identification of an individual if they are not suspect of any crime other then being a potential illegal.

 

So Bender, you want the illegals sent home, but you do not support any law or action that would actually do that?

Not if it involves scrutinizing an American citizens status.

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[phreakwars]

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.

 

Ring a bell?

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[timesjoke]

So Bender, you want the illegals sent home, but you do not support any law or action that would actually do that?

Not if it involves scrutinizing an American citizens status.

 

If we do not check a person's status, we can never send an illegal home, so in practice you play semantics, you say you want them to go home but you refuse to let anyone have the tools needed to accomplish that goal, so in reality you do not want them sent home.

 

 

Your just as much an open border supporter as anyone else Bender, you can't say you want them sent home if you at the same time say no possible way of checking status is allowed.

 

 

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

 

 

 

 

And your qute is irrelivent, nobody is giving up freedom to show identification. And safety is not as big a concern as we are out of money Bender, in all of this you refuse to understand that we cannot continue to pau for these illegals to be here, we must take actions because we are out of money.

[phreakwars]

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

Simple... no jobs, no illegals. Come down extremely hard on the people who employ them. They did it once, and it worked TOO WELL. Problem was, there was nobody to fill the job void because white people won't pick lettuce for less then minimum wage.

 

John McCain had that down and said it himself, it just an inconvenient truth people don't want to accept.

 

Take away an illegals incentive for wanting to come over, they won't come over, and those that are here, will hi-tail it back home with anchor babies in tow. But that ain't gonna happen, like I said before, BIG MONEY LOVES illegals, regardless of how much of the population overwhelmingly wants them gone, and what big money wants, big money gets.

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[eddo]

I believe it is wrong to ask for identification of an individual if they are not suspect of any crime other then being a potential illegal.

 

Officers will not allowed to pull anyone over because they "look illegal." Just like with AZ's current seat belt law- there must be a valid reason to pull someone over or talk to them BEFORE you can question their legality. Cops will not be just walking around bugging every tan skinned individual.

 

 

 

 

And I still want an answer to my question... how do you identify a potential illegal?

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as for the "reasonable suspicion" used to asked for further id, a number of things could fall into this category:

 

license plates from out of the country, inability to speak English, lack of proper id (drivers license, insurance, registration,) 16 people crammed into a Kia Sportage, etc.

[phreakwars]

I believe it is wrong to ask for identification of an individual if they are not suspect of any crime other then being a potential illegal.

 

Officers will not allowed to pull anyone over because they "look illegal." Just like with AZ's current seat belt law- there must be a valid reason to pull someone over or talk to them BEFORE you can question their legality. Cops will not be just walking around bugging every tan skinned individual.

 

 

 

 

And I still want an answer to my question... how do you identify a potential illegal?

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as for the "reasonable suspicion" used to asked for further id, a number of things could fall into this category:

 

license plates from out of the country, inability to speak English, lack of proper id (drivers license, insurance, registration,) 16 people crammed into a Kia Sportage, etc.

See this post: http://Off Topic Forum.com/top...post__p__105950

 

THIS, I have a problem with:

[attach=full]2783[/attach]

[eddo]

I believe it is wrong to ask for identification of an individual if they are not suspect of any crime other then being a potential illegal.

 

Officers will not allowed to pull anyone over because they "look illegal." Just like with AZ's current seat belt law- there must be a valid reason to pull someone over or talk to them BEFORE you can question their legality. Cops will not be just walking around bugging every tan skinned individual.

 

 

 

 

And I still want an answer to my question... how do you identify a potential illegal?

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as for the "reasonable suspicion" used to asked for further id, a number of things could fall into this category:

 

license plates from out of the country, inability to speak English, lack of proper id (drivers license, insurance, registration,) 16 people crammed into a Kia Sportage, etc.

See this post: http://Off Topic Forum.com/topic/29146-arizona-state-senator-responds-to-immigration/page__view__findpost__p__105950

then what are you still griping about???

[phreakwars]

The potential that is still there to profile AMERICAN citizens.

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[phreakwars]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified.

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[timesjoke]

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

Simple... no jobs, no illegals. Come down extremely hard on the people who employ them.

 

So how do you come down on employers for hiring illegals if your not allowed to ask the workers if they are illegal?

 

 

Again, your dancing all around the point, at some point the illegal has to be asked if he is illegal, you say we cannot ask that question, so nothing can be done.

[eddo]

The potential that is still there to profile AMERICAN citizens.

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this potential is ALWAYS there- no matter what law you are trying to enforce or argue against. If you cannot trust your law enforcement officers to do their job right, then this (or any other) law will make no difference in that.

 

Sheriff Dupnick up above apparently cannot trust his deputies to do what is right. That is a shame.

 

 

Will Americans occasionally be asked for id to prove they are American Citizens? Yes, it will happen. (like I said- it happened to me only yesterday and I was in no way committing a crime or being questioned about one.) Provide a state issued id card of some sort and all should be fine. then carry on with your life.

[phreakwars]

Can you give an idea how we can send illegals home without asking them if they are illegal?

Simple... no jobs, no illegals. Come down extremely hard on the people who employ them.

 

So how do you come down on employers for hiring illegals if your not allowed to ask the workers if they are illegal?

 

 

Again, your dancing all around the point, at some point the illegal has to be asked if he is illegal, you say we cannot ask that question, so nothing can be done.

Dancing around the point my ass.

 

Well Gee, that's what proper documentation and identification are for when you are hired for a job. You ain't gonna tell me the guys that hire illegals have no idea that an employee is illegal. If they hire them, more then likely they are getting paid under the table.. they can't ALL have illegal papers ya know. Most of these guys stand around corners waiting for someone to offer them work. The Arizona law DOES address this, but IMHO, the punishment for doing so is VERY weak. Start making it a felony and threatening the guys that hire them with some serious jail time, they'll think twice before hiring Paco to save a few bucks.

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[phreakwars]

Will Americans occasionally be asked for id to prove they are American Citizens? Yes, it will happen. (like I said- it happened to me only yesterday and I was in no way committing a crime or being questioned about one.) Provide a state issued id card of some sort and all should be fine. then carry on with your life.

It's not a matter of being asked for an ID, it's the circumstances involved in the request.

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[timesjoke]

 

Dancing around the point my ass.

 

Well Gee, that's what proper documentation and identification are for when you are hired for a job. You ain't gonna tell me the guys that hire illegals have no idea that an employee is illegal. If they hire them, more then likely they are getting paid under the table.. they can't ALL have illegal papers ya know. Most of these guys stand around corners waiting for someone to offer them work. The Arizona law DOES address this, but IMHO, the punishment for doing so is VERY weak. Start making it a felony and threatening the guys that hire them with some serious jail time, they'll think twice before hiring Paco to save a few bucks.

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Your still dancing around the point Bender, why is this question too hard for you to answer?

 

How do you find an employer guilty of hiring illegals if you at the same time can never ask the illegal if they are in fact illegal? Would not establishing the worker as illegal be the first step in that process? If you can't ask the worker any questions, and you can't figure out if the worker is here illegally, you sure as heck can't charge the employer now can you?

[phreakwars]

TJ, you are a moron and a half, I already answered your stupidity, get lost, you make me sick.

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[eddo]

TJ, you are a moron and a half, I already answered your stupidity, get lost, you make me sick.

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so you erased him from the thread?

 

LAME.

 

 

If this is how the debate is gonna go, I'm done...

[phreakwars]

No I went to hit the ignore button for him and accidentally set him on ignore for everyone. Not used to the IPB interface yet.It's fixed now.

[timesjoke]

 

 

so you erased him from the thread?

 

LAME.

 

 

If this is how the debate is gonna go, I'm done...

 

lol, as usual all he can do is run away from direct questions, he calles me moron, stupid, etc all the time, but I ask a question he can't answer and he loses his cool, typical liberal.

[hugo]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified.

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The law as originally written would have been struck down as a violation of the 4th Amendment. The wording was vague at best and allowing almost unlimited search powers at worst. Of course racists don't really give a damn about the Bill of Rights.

[snafu]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

[timesjoke]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

 

Exactly, this is why Bender is so pissed off at me, he knows the only way to know "IF" someone is illegal is to directly ask people. He says come down on employers but still you must first establish the worker is illegal before you can charge the employer so at some point, the question must be asked.

[phreakwars]

Did they somehow think that opponents would not parse the language carefully? After all, it wasn’t just people on the Left who objected to the vague notion of “lawful contact� in this passage. Plenty of people on the Right also expressed concern about the potential for police to assume expansive powers to stop and question people with no probable cause other than assumptions about immigration status. Even some of the police in Arizona objected to it.

So yeah, I'd say my concern was justified.

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The law as originally written would have been struck down as a violation of the 4th Amendment. The wording was vague at best and allowing almost unlimited search powers at worst. Of course racists don't really give a damn about the Bill of Rights.

Exactly. And they gotta make it into a damn Right .vs Left issue, when what it really comes down to is equal rights of all individuals. It's way too easy to have no problem with someone else's rights being violated, as long as it doesn't affect you personally. You can't say "OH THOSE DAMN LIBERALS THIS AND THAT", when anybody with half a brain can see the problem here, even Republicans.

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[phreakwars]

I’m sorry but there aren’t any white Mexicans crossing the boarder illegal. We need to fix this problem and if in tales “profiling’ then I think we should. The security of our nation far exceeds the little inconvenience to some of our citizens like asking for ID.

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.

 

Even if it means giving up your fellow mans freedoms for your own security.

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[eddo]

No I went to hit the ignore button for him and accidentally set him on ignore for everyone. Not used to the IPB interface yet.It's fixed now.

lol, ok.