What the Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero Means to Worldwide Islam

[timesjoke]

 

Well, since I already won, it's too late to bet.

 

If your going to act like a child I will treat you as one. The wager is easy to understand even by a 5 year old, if your having to resort to this kind of garbage kid, your prove you already lost the arguement.

 

 

So either man up and put your money where your mouth is or keep acting like a child.

 

He wasn't exactly a great guy BEFORE we did that.

 

He's also the son of one of the wealthiest people in Saudi Arabia. He has been anti-US for many, many years.

 

And how is any of that America's fault? Do you think he was anti-us when he accepted out help to fight off the Russians? He fell in love with the power, many leaders of men fall in love with the ability to command death. America could not have known that helping Afganistan fight off the Russians would have created a terrorist like OBL.

 

 

Something fun I learned about researching the CIA-Osama controversy: Assume that we didn't train Osama. He actually was a Saudi, and the CIA had no reason to recruit him for the fight against Russia anyway. He was operating independently at that point, funding himself. So he had no reason to thank us. He's hated us since before that.

 

And yes, I know I refuted my own point about us training him.

 

We did help train some troops and such as well as provide lots of other help like weapons and such, but you dodged my question, why is it you only want to claim America did bad things but you ignore the greater good that America helped to save millions of lives in Afganistan? Why is it you only spout the propaganda offered by the terrorists as excuses but you refuse to give credit to the good America has done?

 

He's always been a terrorist.

 

Again, stop being a child, that was a very stupid thing to claim, for good or bad he was the only person capable of bringing enough men together to fight as a unified force against the Russians we could help. The alternative was to let millions of Afganistan people die, do you think that was what we should have done?

 

And again, don't forget that the Russians would not have stopped there.

 

 

This was one of the battlefields of the cold war Joker, and one of the reasons we won that war, you have to look at the broader picture before you condemn America.

 

 

 

He tries to remain neutral so he can hope to bring about a peace, as one would expect.

 

You can't possibly be that nieve. If your going to discuss these things at least educate yourself as to why negotiations with terrorists is impossible. First of all, they do not have one governing body, even Hezbollah has a constantly revolving leadership and when one agrees with a thing, someone else does not agree and refuses to honor the deal.

 

Making peace with one terrorist does nothing to sway another terrorist, in fact many times the other terrorists will intentionally increase their activities to prove those in the deals have no power over them.

 

 

We can only have honest negotiations with nations and countries that have a basis in laws, have a binding ability to set policy and a power to enforce those agreements. Nobody this imam is trying to keep the peach with has the power to enforce those agreements. So the refusal to call a terrorist a terrorist is simply counterproductive and it instead allows each of these individual splinters to feel legitimate because guys like this imam will treat them as heads of state instead of the monsters they really are.

 

 

 

With what? He might pay his loans on time. Might not have credit card debt. And I'm sure he would deliver if I paid him to kill my neighbor's children.

 

However, the Imam is not a child killer, so your point has no merit in your argument against him.

 

You dodged the question, try to pay attention this time.

 

Do you trust the word of people who gladly target children?

 

When these terrorists make claims as to "why" they do what they do people like you have to trust they are being honest about their motives and I wonder why you trust them to tell the truth when they have demonstrated they are not trustworthy. There is no honor in a man who will gut a child just for shock value. If they will gut a child, they will lie Joker.

 

He has said that targeting civilians is wrong. Anybody who targets them is wrong.

 

But he refuses to call them terrorists. Actions speak louder than words joker, this imam visits these terrorists ans shows them respect, he treats them as good and respectable people. If he truly believed these terrorists were bad people, he would shun them and refuse to deal with them, and if all the Muslim world would do this the terrorist problem would almost completely end overnight.

 

 

These terrorists still want the acceptance of the general Muslim world, and this imam is giving them that acceptance

 

 

How does he show them respect?

 

By treating them like heads of state instead of treating them like the terrorists they are.

 

If you met someone you knew killed hundreds of babies, would you shake their hand, have polite conversation, eat dinner and be their friend? Or would you shun them and stay away from them? Would you have the courage to maybe stand up to them and say they were doing wrong? We are talking about mass killers Joker.

 

No, no, that's basically what you were getting at. And Donald Trump doesn't have my land.

 

What, I have no idea what your trying to say. Either it is unconstutional or it is not for the Government to take away land from a private person. If it is okay to do it for one reason, then it is okay to do it for another. We have a Representative democracy where our elected officials are to represent us, not their own political correct agendas.

 

Well, they are doing nothing illegal. And the community center really isn't that big of a deal.

 

I never said they were doing anything illegal, a strip club owner is not doing anything illegal either but our Government sometimes does block the construction of a strip club under moral issues all the time. The mosque on ground zero is no big deal "TO YOU" and I support your right as an American to not care about the 9/11 attacks, but you don't speak for all americans and most of us do care about the idea of building a terrorist monument on ground zero.

 

No, really, your opinion doesn't matter in New York. I'm glad you feel empathy for 9/11. But a building not actually being built on Ground Zero has no impact on your life whatsoever. And that's why your opinion doesn't matter there. Only the locals. Which you aren't.

 

I say again, it is your right to not be connected in any way to your Country, but it is my right as an American to be very concerned about attacks on this Nation. We were attacked because of the more radical elements of Islam that their own moderates refuse to condemn. People like this imam even hangsout with them and treat terrorists as heads of state. Terrorists do not deserve any respect and showing them respect adds to their belief they are doing good things under their religion.

 

Building a terrorist monument on ground zero definately would impact my life because it would further degrade America and force it further into the pit of dispair blind political correctness always leads to. This time it is a mosque at ground zero, then what? Where do we draw a line and say "enough is enough"?

 

It's not on the site of a Muslim attack on America, so you've won.

 

Stop being an infant. The entire area is ground zero. In fact, all of New York was severely impacted by the attacks. This was not just an attack on two buildings Joker, this was an attack on Americans as a people. If you choose to brainwash yourself into believing this was just two buildings attacked then there is nothing I can do about that, self-delusion is very comon with the very young and the progressives but you can't force people like me to share in your delusions.

 

No, it has nothing to do with that. As it turns out, your adverse reaction sounds to me like the terrorists won. They got you to hate Islam, which fuels their rhetoric to recruit people to attack us. My acceptance of the religion doesn't fuel their fires. Funny, huh?

 

The appeasement theory was tried for a long time, and it has failed every time. Clinton was about as soft on Muslims as you could ever find in a past President and the 9/11 attackers were here during his entire Presidency training for 9/11. 9/11 was the result of being soft and showing weakness, like the weakness you show.

 

Everone claimed the more agressive stance of Bush would incite and anger the Muslims to attack us more but it had the exact opposite effect, they backed off and showed America more respect, no new attacks, now with another weak President who is playing the appeasement card with the Muslims we have more terrorist attacks again.

 

Any idiot should be able to see appeasement and going soft only invites attacks. The terrorists are going to exist no matter what us infidels do, because they can't possibly hate us more then they already do. The only thing that can stop the terrorists are fellow Muslims standing up against them.

 

Yes, I'm putting the freedoms America provides over your hatred of people because of their religion. What a bad person I must be.

 

No, it has nothing to do with their religion, everything I am against is their actions. Killing babies is not okay just because they hide behind the Islamic faith Joker. You want to give them all a free pass for refusing to fight their own terrorist elements, I am not. The second peopel like this imam starts to shun the terrorists I will be there standing next to them holding their hand sharing in their work.

 

 

But it is "THEIR" work to do.

[timesjoke]

 

 

Are you content with our society? The fact that you have such strong opinions on things would say you aren't. I know I'm not content with our society. But there are worse. I have freedoms, and I'm ok with that. So no, not people "like me".

 

And part of our freedoms is to stand up for moral possitions Joker. We are supposed to be creating a society to be proud of. We are not robots Joker, we are human being and the things that give us the greatest pleasures in life are directly connected to our enotional side. Even beautiful music can generate an emotional reaction so this is what it really means to be human.

 

 

I am very content with being an American, I get upset or irritated when people try to superimpose political correctness over the top of the American dream. You say your content, and it clearly shows in your being willing to believe terrorists are good and trustworthy people and those who hang out with those terrorists are also trustworthy.

 

Assuming that every Muslim in the world is deceptive, sure. But assuming that those who aren't radicals don't, or even assuming 99% don't, then you have no case. And if every Muslim in the world does, then we're fucked. 1.6 billion people plan to kill us.

 

That is where your missing the point. It does not take all Muslims to be involved for this to work, it is already working, your defending them for their refusal to stand united against their terrorist elements. They have you doing part of their "Al-Taqiyah" work for them, now ain't that grand....

 

Brainwashed by who? Me being brainwashed would have nothing to do with it anyway.

 

Your the product of a severely progressive school system where America is always the 'bad guy' and we should feel guilty for being strong, feel guilty for our success, feel guilty that even our very poor live 100 times better than the average person in a Muslim governed Nation.

 

But why do you assume that every Muslim does it? Do Jews stone people who don't worship their God? Do Christians keep holy the Sabbath (Which is Saturday, not Sunday)? No, they don't. And assuming that everyone in the world, or even people of a certain religion, follow said religion to a "T" is so far beyond incorrect assumption it's mindblowing.

 

And where did I ever say they all do "it"?

 

Your putting words in my mouth, what I have said is that there is not a unified voice against the radicals from the Muslim communities and even Hugo admitted I was right about that.

 

While they don't "all" do these things, their refusal to come out firmly against these things is a sort of support for it. They don't seperate their lives into segments the way we do, we see our politics, out busines, and out faith as completely seperate things but Muslims believe everything is serving their religion.

 

 

I keep pointing out that this is like the Christian dark ages, it took a unified Christian stand to end those bad activities and it will take a unified Muslim stan to end the Islamic terrorist problem. Nothing we do as Infidels will ever change anything in the Muslim world.

 

 

Also, it's a Shi-ite belief. They use it to hide from the Sunni prosecution. So it's only a certain facet of the religion that practices it anyway (although some Sunnis do, but the majority say its practice is outwardly denying faith in God).

 

So no, not all of them practice it. Unless we just listen to you and assume they all lie.

 

Again, where did I say they all lie? You lie by trying to put that statement into my mouth.

 

Yes, the original development of "Al-Taqiyah" was as you say, but it has developed into a wider usage, again, go educate yourself a little bit and you will see that things are not always what they seem to be:

 

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

 

Every stratagem of war Joker.

 

So why do even good Muslims show support for terrorists, one answer may be in the quran 8:72 where it commands Muslims to show support to any Muslim who is fighting oppression. Even you Joker seem to believe the words of terrorists who claim they are only fighting the only way they know how against American oppression so if a young American like you believes these words, why should a Muslim not believe it?

[timesjoke]

Just watched Rauf interviewed on Larry King. He condemned Hamas. He seems like a man who sincerely wants peace.

 

 

 

 

That's what I've gotten from hearing about him/reading his interviews.

 

 

"We tend to forget in the West that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al

Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims."

 

This was a statement by him claiming that the sanctions against Iraq were killing the people of Iraq, but we all know that Suddam was intentionally keeping the food and medical supplies from his own people so he could generate support in the liberal press, and it worked for awile. The truth that almost all those deaths were caused by their own leader is widely known but this so called "moderate" muslim is spreading lies against America.

 

Why would someone who wants peace tell intentional lies?

 

The issue of terrorism is a very complex question

 

Is it really that complex? Either your killing innocents under false claims of religious need or your not in my book. By squirming around the pojnt and refusing to tell it like it is, you are justifying those terrorist actions.

 

 

but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?"

 

So terrorists are just trying to get attention, they are not bad people for blowing up a school bus filled with children, no, they are doing what anyone else would do.........right?

 

Again, it is all America's fault......

 

 

In all his speaches, Rauf never defends America or point out our good deeds in the Muslim world. Not one word about how America saved Afganistan and how America has helped Muslims in places like Kosovo and Kuwait. All he ever tries to do is make excuses for bad Muslim behavior.

 

"But what makes people, in my opinion, commit suicide for political reasons have their origins in politics and political objectives and worldly objectives rather than other worldly objectives. But the psychology of human beings and the brittleness of the human condition and how many of us have thought about taking our own lives, we may be jilted, had a bad relationship, you know, didn't get tenure at the university, failed an important course, there's a host of reason why people feel so depressed with themselves that they are willing to contemplate ending their own lives. And if you can access those individuals and deploy them for your own worldly objectives, this is exactly what has happened in much of the Muslim world. "

 

Right there he downplays the involvement of Islam in the terrorist attackers and suicide bombers, he wants people to believe there is no difference between the suicide of someone who does not get tenure at their teaching possition and a Muslim terrorist who straps a bomb to his chest and goes looking for a big group of innocent infidels to take with him.

 

"And when we observe terrorism," he said, "whether it was done by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka or by al Qaida or whoever is behind the bombings in London or those in Madrid, we can see that they were target political objectives.

 

Again, he offers excuses and justifications to these actions performed by terrorists. The innocents standing around a coffee shop are not a political target, they are victims and the attackers are driven by religious fury to kill the infidel any way they can.

 

 

"The differences, perhaps, may lie on whether the solution lies in the two-state solution or in a one-state solution. I believe that you had someone here recently who spoke about having a one land and two people's solution to Israel.

 

And I personally – my own personal analysis tells me that a one-state solution is a more coherent one than a two-state solution. So if we address the underlying issue, if we figure out a way to create condominiums, to condominiamise Israel and Palestine so you have two peoples co-existing on one state, then we have a different paradigm which will allow us to move forward."

 

A one-state solution?

 

Every time you hear the terrorists groups use that phrase what does it mean? The extermination of the jew, at the very least combining all people into one would place the jewish State into eradication, they would be out numbered almost two to one and will lose all their rights and ability to defent themselves. Imagine Hamas obtaining control of the military and the nuclear weapons that Israel possess, does this guy really think giving nuclear weapons to Hamas is a good idea?

 

Even if the now in power muslims did not exterminate their long time foes, they would be in a possition to really get radical with their new found military might. You think they were violent before when they only had basic weapons, see what they do with this stuff.

 

 

 

 

You guys really think this guy wants peace?

 

Seems like they have you both brainwashed very well indeed, lol.

[eddo]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

 

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

 

 

 

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

 

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

[timesjoke]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

 

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

 

 

 

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

 

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

Seriously eddo, you sometimes surprise me with your need to depart from logic to stand against something I say.

 

 

Obiously the wager was as the building was planned to be built, only a completely stupid person would think otherwise.

 

 

This area being part of ground zero is based on how you perceive it. Just like Joker saying only people in new york should feel anything about the attack of 9/11. Is that true eddo? Did you feel anything after that attack? And if people all over America were negatively effected by that attack then they too were part of the 9/11 attack.

 

 

 

Is the damage caused by a nuclear bomb limited to the imediate blast radious of the explosion or can we logically say that the attack includes all the following harms that go with that deployment of the nuclear weapon? Considering the devistation caused with the two nuclear bombs we released on Japan, was just the specific detonation locations the only parts of Japan that was damaged?

 

 

 

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

[ImWithStupid]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

 

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

 

 

 

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

 

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

 

Picture from September 2001...

 

.

 

Notice the sign on the top left. Sure looks like part of Ground Zero to me.

[eddo]

This area being part of ground zero is based on how you perceive it.

 

 

Picture from September 2001...

 

.

 

Notice the sign on the top left. Sure looks like part of Ground Zero to me.

 

 

To both:

That's my point. Technically "Ground Zero" is where the towers stood. Technically, this mosque thingy isn't being built there.

 

Wagers and bets need to be clear or someone is gonna get pissed when they have to pay up. lol

[jokersarewild]

 

And part of our freedoms is to stand up for moral possitions Joker. We are supposed to be creating a society to be proud of. We are not robots Joker, we are human being and the things that give us the greatest pleasures in life are directly connected to our enotional side. Even beautiful music can generate an emotional reaction so this is what it really means to be human.

 

Nothing to do with what I said. Pandering to illicit emotion where there should be none for the cause of your argument. NEXT!

 

I am very content with being an American, I get upset or irritated when people try to superimpose political correctness over the top of the American dream. You say your content, and it clearly shows in your being willing to believe terrorists are good and trustworthy people and those who hang out with those terrorists are also trustworthy.

 

Because I totally said that. I said "Believe all of the terrorists, because they bring us candy and flowers". Do you actually READ anything I say, or just form the opinions for me? Tomorrow I'll probably hate homosexuals if we debate WBC and you're in it.

 

That is where your missing the point. It does not take all Muslims to be involved for this to work, it is already working, your defending them for their refusal to stand united against their terrorist elements. They have you doing part of their "Al-Taqiyah" work for them, now ain't that grand....

No, I just don't subscribe to the G Dubya "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" crap. Just because you only see black and white doesn't mean the rest of us do.

 

And how am I doing part of their work for them? Again, assuming they're all lying, and don't actually hate America. Since, you know, that tends to be the reason cited.

 

 

Your the product of a severely progressive school system where America is always the 'bad guy' and we should feel guilty for being strong, feel guilty for our success, feel guilty that even our very poor live 100 times better than the average person in a Muslim governed Nation.

 

One, I never said America is always the bad guy. Two, America can sometimes be the bad guy. Your national pride interferes with your sense of logic. Three, why should we feel guilty? I've never felt guilty about it, in the slightest. My "school system" never once taught me that. The closest I got was having a hardcore Dem for my 11/12th grade English teacher. Even he never once said anything to that effect.

 

And where did I ever say they all do "it"?

 

Well, with your "you're either with us or against us" attitude, it's fairly easy to figure out that if they don't immediately bow down to America and say we're spectacular, they're Satan in disguise.

 

Your putting words in my mouth, what I have said is that there is not a unified voice against the radicals from the Muslim communities and even Hugo admitted I was right about that.

 

I never said you weren't.

 

While they don't "all" do these things, their refusal to come out firmly against these things is a sort of support for it. They don't seperate their lives into segments the way we do, we see our politics, out busines, and out faith as completely seperate things but Muslims believe everything is serving their religion.

 

"You're either with us, or you're with the Terrorists" - G W Bush

 

I keep pointing out that this is like the Christian dark ages, it took a unified Christian stand to end those bad activities and it will take a unified Muslim stan to end the Islamic terrorist problem. Nothing we do as Infidels will ever change anything in the Muslim world.

 

I agree. But you still have countries that not only harbor terrorists, but use terrorism as tool for whatever they want. I can't rightly see a whole lot changing in those areas, except with firepower.

 

 

Again, where did I say they all lie? You lie by trying to put that statement into my mouth.

 

You brought up Taqiyya as if it was something they all did, and never said anything otherwise. You implied they all used it, look back at your statement.

 

Yes, the original development of "Al-Taqiyah" was as you say, but it has developed into a wider usage, again, go educate yourself a little bit and you will see that things are not always what they seem to be:

 

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

 

Every stratagem of war Joker.

 

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

 

Which is Bible AND Torah, by the way.

 

So yes, they all have something telling them to kill non-believers. Doesn't mean they do.

 

So why do even good Muslims show support for terrorists, one answer may be in the quran 8:72 where it commands Muslims to show support to any Muslim who is fighting oppression. Even you Joker seem to believe the words of terrorists who claim they are only fighting the only way they know how against American oppression so if a young American like you believes these words, why should a Muslim not believe it?

 

Surah [8:72] Surely, those who believed, and emigrated, and strove with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD, as well as those who hosted them and gave them refuge, and supported them, they are allies of one another. As for those who believe, but do not emigrate with you, you do not owe them any support, until they do emigrate. However, if they need your help, as brethren in faith, you shall help them, except against people with whom you have signed a peace treaty. GOD is Seer of everything you do.

 

Uh...what in the flying frak translation were you you getting?

[jokersarewild]

 

 

If your going to act like a child I will treat you as one. The wager is easy to understand even by a 5 year old, if your having to resort to this kind of garbage kid, your prove you already lost the arguement.

 

Yeah...it's garbage because I have to keep telling you that it's not being built on ground zero. You insist I'm wrong, even though there's proof. Huh. Yeah, I'm the kid here.

 

So either man up and put your money where your mouth is or keep acting like a child.

I bet half a million dollars that a mosque will be built outside of ground zero.

 

 

And how is any of that America's fault? Do you think he was anti-us when he accepted out help to fight off the Russians? He fell in love with the power, many leaders of men fall in love with the ability to command death. America could not have known that helping Afganistan fight off the Russians would have created a terrorist like OBL.

 

You missed my post after it. It turns out, the CIA and Osama had nothing to do with each other. Osama had his own group which eventually became Al-Queda.

 

 

 

We did help train some troops and such as well as provide lots of other help like weapons and such, but you dodged my question, why is it you only want to claim America did bad things but you ignore the greater good that America helped to save millions of lives in Afganistan? Why is it you only spout the propaganda offered by the terrorists as excuses but you refuse to give credit to the good America has done?

I never said we didn't help Afghanistan quite a bit (although we weren't the only ones). But my point was that he had no reason to be grateful to us, and thusly your point had no merit.

 

 

Again, stop being a child, that was a very stupid thing to claim, for good or bad he was the only person capable of bringing enough men together to fight as a unified force against the Russians we could help. The alternative was to let millions of Afganistan people die, do you think that was what we should have done?

 

And again, don't forget that the Russians would not have stopped there.

 

 

This was one of the battlefields of the cold war Joker, and one of the reasons we won that war, you have to look at the broader picture before you condemn America.

 

Uhm...I wasn't condemning America. I was saying he has always been against us. He didn't help US during the war. Whatever he might've done had nothing to do with us. I'm sorry it's childish for offering an opposing view.

 

 

You can't possibly be that nieve. If your going to discuss these things at least educate yourself as to why negotiations with terrorists is impossible. First of all, they do not have one governing body, even Hezbollah has a constantly revolving leadership and when one agrees with a thing, someone else does not agree and refuses to honor the deal.

 

Making peace with one terrorist does nothing to sway another terrorist, in fact many times the other terrorists will intentionally increase their activities to prove those in the deals have no power over them.

 

 

We can only have honest negotiations with nations and countries that have a basis in laws, have a binding ability to set policy and a power to enforce those agreements. Nobody this imam is trying to keep the peach with has the power to enforce those agreements. So the refusal to call a terrorist a terrorist is simply counterproductive and it instead allows each of these individual splinters to feel legitimate because guys like this imam will treat them as heads of state instead of the monsters they really are.

 

Sources? Also, we have alliances with countries supporting terrorism. Like Saudi Arabia. "Oh hey, Saudis, wanna stop supporting terrorism?" "No, we're good. You can't really stop us, as we're rich because of our oil, kthnx."

 

You dodged the question, try to pay attention this time.

 

Do you trust the word of people who gladly target children?

Trust them with what? Yes, there are people that target children. I understand this. Morally, I have an issue with it. But murderers can be trustworthy people in matters not of a moral type. Would I want them near my kids? No.

 

When these terrorists make claims as to "why" they do what they do people like you have to trust they are being honest about their motives and I wonder why you trust them to tell the truth when they have demonstrated they are not trustworthy. There is no honor in a man who will gut a child just for shock value. If they will gut a child, they will lie Joker.

 

Why would they lie about their motives? Because of Taqiyya, a term that you can't even grasp as to the reason it would be used in the first place? They aren't hiding their beliefs out of fear of persecution, Times.

[jokersarewild]

 

But he refuses to call them terrorists. Actions speak louder than words joker, this imam visits these terrorists ans shows them respect, he treats them as good and respectable people. If he truly believed these terrorists were bad people, he would shun them and refuse to deal with them, and if all the Muslim world would do this the terrorist problem would almost completely end overnight.

 

 

These terrorists still want the acceptance of the general Muslim world, and this imam is giving them that acceptance

 

Negotiating is bad.

 

How does he show them respect?

 

By treating them like heads of state instead of treating them like the terrorists they are.

 

If you met someone you knew killed hundreds of babies, would you shake their hand, have polite conversation, eat dinner and be their friend? Or would you shun them and stay away from them? Would you have the courage to maybe stand up to them and say they were doing wrong? We are talking about mass killers Joker.

 

You know, it really depends on what I needed from them. I would treat them politely if I needed to get something from them, like money, weapons, etc. Under other circumstances, I doubt I'd go near them.

 

 

No, no, that's basically what you were getting at. And Donald Trump doesn't have my land.

 

What, I have no idea what your trying to say. Either it is unconstutional or it is not for the Government to take away land from a private person. If it is okay to do it for one reason, then it is okay to do it for another. We have a Representative democracy where our elected officials are to represent us, not their own political correct agendas.

 

Did you vote for Bloomberg in the NY election? If so, they'll take you to jail for fraud. As it turns out, you don't live there, you have no say, you elected nobody in that state.

 

Well, they are doing nothing illegal. And the community center really isn't that big of a deal.

 

I never said they were doing anything illegal, a strip club owner is not doing anything illegal either but our Government sometimes does block the construction of a strip club under moral issues all the time. The mosque on ground zero is no big deal "TO YOU" and I support your right as an American to not care about the 9/11 attacks, but you don't speak for all americans and most of us do care about the idea of building a terrorist monument on ground zero.

 

Except, you know, it's not on Ground Zero. 2 blocks north. And they have no "moral" reason to block the construction anyway.

 

No, really, your opinion doesn't matter in New York. I'm glad you feel empathy for 9/11. But a building not actually being built on Ground Zero has no impact on your life whatsoever. And that's why your opinion doesn't matter there. Only the locals. Which you aren't.

 

I say again, it is your right to not be connected in any way to your Country, but it is my right as an American to be very concerned about attacks on this Nation. We were attacked because of the more radical elements of Islam that their own moderates refuse to condemn. People like this imam even hangsout with them and treat terrorists as heads of state. Terrorists do not deserve any respect and showing them respect adds to their belief they are doing good things under their religion.

 

Yes, building a community center is an attack on the US. Guess the terrorists won.

 

Building a terrorist monument on ground zero definately would impact my life because it would further degrade America and force it further into the pit of dispair blind political correctness always leads to. This time it is a mosque at ground zero, then what? Where do we draw a line and say "enough is enough"?

 

Not a terrorist monument. Not on ground zero. Doesn't affect your day-to-day life.

 

It's not on the site of a Muslim attack on America, so you've won.

 

Stop being an infant. The entire area is ground zero. In fact, all of New York was severely impacted by the attacks. This was not just an attack on two buildings Joker, this was an attack on Americans as a people. If you choose to brainwash yourself into believing this was just two buildings attacked then there is nothing I can do about that, self-delusion is very comon with the very young and the progressives but you can't force people like me to share in your delusions.

 

I never said it didn't severely affect NY. But saying "a large area of New York" is Ground Zero because the attacks happened several blocks away is somewhat asinine.

 

And yes, this was an attack on the American people. Community center != attack on the American people.

 

No, it has nothing to do with that. As it turns out, your adverse reaction sounds to me like the terrorists won. They got you to hate Islam, which fuels their rhetoric to recruit people to attack us. My acceptance of the religion doesn't fuel their fires. Funny, huh?

 

The appeasement theory was tried for a long time, and it has failed every time. Clinton was about as soft on Muslims as you could ever find in a past President and the 9/11 attackers were here during his entire Presidency training for 9/11. 9/11 was the result of being soft and showing weakness, like the weakness you show.

 

Also, there were multiple attempts to bring the WTC down before 9/11. During his presidency, no less. And none of the succeeded.

 

Everone claimed the more agressive stance of Bush would incite and anger the Muslims to attack us more but it had the exact opposite effect, they backed off and showed America more respect, no new attacks, now with another weak President who is playing the appeasement card with the Muslims we have more terrorist attacks again.

 

Yeah, Bush was so aggressive that 9/11 happened. Mind you, there are attempts at terrorist attacks that you don't hear much about. So they could've attacked several more times. You don't know.

 

Any idiot should be able to see appeasement and going soft only invites attacks. The terrorists are going to exist no matter what us infidels do, because they can't possibly hate us more then they already do. The only thing that can stop the terrorists are fellow Muslims standing up against them.

 

Who's appeasing them?

 

Yes, I'm putting the freedoms America provides over your hatred of people because of their religion. What a bad person I must be.

 

No, it has nothing to do with their religion, everything I am against is their actions. Killing babies is not okay just because they hide behind the Islamic faith Joker. You want to give them all a free pass for refusing to fight their own terrorist elements, I am not. The second peopel like this imam starts to shun the terrorists I will be there standing next to them holding their hand sharing in their work.

 

 

But it is "THEIR" work to do.

 

I've said this multiple times. SEPERATE THEIR ACTIONS FROM THEIR RELIGION! The terrorists aren't practicing Islam, they're perverting it.

 

Also, what proof do you have that he meets with terrorists and treats them like heads of state?

[jokersarewild]

This area being part of ground zero is based on how you perceive it.

 

 

Picture from September 2001...

 

.

 

Notice the sign on the top left. Sure looks like part of Ground Zero to me.

 

 

To both:

That's my point. Technically "Ground Zero" is where the towers stood. Technically, this mosque thingy isn't being built there.

 

Wagers and bets need to be clear or someone is gonna get pissed when they have to pay up. lol

 

According to Times, a 5 year old could understand what he meant.

 

Also, you're illogical for saying "Well, if you're going to bet, come up with agreed upon definitions."

 

Thank God I'd never make a real bet with this guy. He'd end up going "Well, I'm always right, so whatever."

 

Oh look:

 

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

So he wins the bet, according to him, if a mosque is built in the US. I think I might lose this one somewhere down the line.

[wez]

And part of our freedoms is to stand up for moral possitions Joker. We are supposed to be creating a society to be proud of. We are not robots Joker, we are human being and the things that give us the greatest pleasures in life are directly connected to our enotional side. Even beautiful music can generate an emotional reaction so this is what it really means to be human.

 

 

Ya see TJ.. There's a difference between standing up for your own moral position when someone is trying to impose theirs on you and trying to shove them down the throat of others.. or else..

 

You do the latter .. not freedom.. far from it.. ya want Muslims or anyone else imposing their morality on you, or else? Course not..

What is ok for me to do to another human being is not ok for ANY other human being to do to me, or else ~ Times Joke

 

Stinkin' hypocrite.. wake up

[wez]

 

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation.

 

What a f cking idiot.. so what's the plan? You and your 15 friends gonna ban all Muslims from doing anything around the nation because you're a small minded moron of epic proportions filled to the brim with hate?

 

Yep.. let's burn the constitution cuz you have a bruised ego.. sounds about right.

[hugo]

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[builder]

 

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation.

 

What a f cking idiot.. so what's the plan? You and your 15 friends gonna ban all Muslims from doing anything around the nation because you're a small minded moron of epic proportions filled to the brim with hate?

 

Yep.. let's burn the constitution cuz you have a bruised ego.. sounds about right.

 

That's a ten. He's got a pretty tall order if you read the stats below. Interesting that they are mainly repub voters.

 

http://www.ghazali.net/amp/html/mosques_in_us.html

 

Mosques played an important role in mobilizing the Muslims to register as voters and cast vote during the last presidential election since 89 percent of mosques' leaders believe that Muslims should be more involved in the political process, according to the study. Seventy percent of the Muslim population is eligible for vote and about 65% (or 3.2 million) of Muslim voters turned out in the 2000 election, according to reliable estimates. Muslims voted en bloc for George W. Bush. According to the former Congressman, Paul Findley, bloc voting marks the arrival of Muslims as a new national political power.

 

The study, entitled “The Mosques in America: A National Portrait,” was conducted by the Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) a major Muslim organization. Four other major Muslim organizations - Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America and Muslim American Society – were co-sponsors of the project. This is the first study of its kind that covered 1200 mosques.

 

Muslims have been in the United States for generations. Muslim immigrants from the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. arrived in North America in 1893. They were mainly Turks, Kurds, Albanians, and Arabs. However, the Muslims have grown rapidly in the last two or three decades mainly because of immigration from South Asia and the Middle East and converts from the African-American community.

 

The first mosque in America was probably build by Albanian Muslims in 1915 in Maine. By 1919, they had established another mosque in Connecticut. Polish-speaking Tatars build a mosque in Brooklyn, NY in 1926, which is still in use. African American Muslims established the first Mosque in Pittsburgh, PA in 1930. The Lebanese Community of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, opened its first mosque in 1935. The State Street Mosque in New York City was established by Sheikh Dawood Ahmed Faisal in 1955. This mosque represents a special point in the development of the American Muslim community. The Dar-ul-Islam movement began from there.

 

Although the first mosque was established in America in 1915 but only few mosques were built till 1960. Greater growth of mosques began in the 1970s and the tempo of growth continues unabated. The vast majority of mosques (87%) were found since 1970. Thirty percent of all mosques were established in the 1990s and 32% were started in 1980s. There are 1,209 mosques in America. The mosques participating in the study were founded between 1925-2000.

[ImWithStupid]

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

That could possibly be the dumbest sh!t I've ever heard anyone try to argue.

[timesjoke]

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

That could possibly be the dumbest sh!t I've ever heard anyone try to argue.

And that was the most stupid thing you ever said.

 

Your last post said you did see this as ground zero based on your picture, now why would you say that? Because you see some trash on the ground? Did the planes target and crash directly into this building in question or not? Did the attackers intend to attack this building or was it's being struck by parts just an accident?

 

 

What is the point of a terrorist attack IWS?

 

 

 

Do you think the attack was only intended to destroy the two buildings?

 

 

 

The intent was to instill fear, not just destroy a couple buildings. As an example let me offer you something you might better understand. You as a cop are ordered to disperse a crowd of angry demonstrators, so you deploy a pepper gas grenade into the crowd. Is the canister or the gas the agent your wanting to use as a tool to get the desired effect of dispersing the crowd?

 

 

 

The Muslims involved did not want to knock down two buildings, only an idiot would think that was their true objective. The Islamic terrorists wanted to strike at the heart of America, to cause us fear, to bring their fight to the land of the enemy. Their intent to spread fear was like the gas and the buildings are the canister.

 

 

That "gas" has spread well and now most of our leadership are scared to death. Before 9/11 we did not have muslim prayer in public schools, but we do today, and not one word against it from the ACLU. Today, we can't even admit the attacks at Fort Hood were related to his faith even thought that guy was screaming to Allah the entire time he was killing people. Normally liberals are very vocal and hostile to things like unfair treatments of women and such but when comes to Muslims, they are silent. It is inconceivable to them to put up any resistence to things so called "moderate" Muslims do even if it is obviously designed as a provacative act like building a mosque at ground zero.

 

 

 

So my point that you claim to not understand is that the terrorists were not just attacking New York, their "gas" of fear was intended for all of America. In fact, you do remember that there was more than one target....right? Do you belieeve those targets were selected for their individual importance alone or do you believe their overall effect on "all of America" was also a part of their attack?

 

 

 

 

 

Joker, I am going to just wave you off on this topic, you only want to see the bad done by America but you completely ignore the greater good such as the millions we have saved by helping Afganistan fight off the Russians. If you tryly believe that America shoudl not get greater credit for the greater good then there is nothing I can say to sway you. At this point your arguing like a child, very similar to the way Wez just keeps pouring out hate and attacks while refusing to admit America is the sole reason freedom exists in the world. Sure there were other players, but America is and has always been the biggest player.

 

 

You don't believe Americans should feel a direct connection to the attacks of 9/11 and I respect your opinion, but you refuse to respect the opinions of those of us who do feel it is reasonable to feel that connection.

 

 

You keep telling lies about me in saying I believe "ALL" Muslims are directly terrorists or even bad, I have never believed or said this even one time. You point is if I claim some are playing behind the sceenes, then I must also be saying all are and that is not the case.

 

 

 

------"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke ------

 

This is my point, I believe more than 80% of all Muslims are not evil, are not terrorists, and are not directly helping the radical elements of their faith. But, at the same time their not directly standing up against those radical elements and "doing nothing" is helping evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, about the wager, I bet you $100.00 that the "currently planned" location of this mosque/center, whatever title you want to call it will either not be built, or they will take out the mosque portion of the building. You willing to take me up on that wager? No word games, no childish attempts to squirm away from the intent of this wager, man up and either agree to the bet or not.

[ImWithStupid]

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

That could possibly be the dumbest sh!t I've ever heard anyone try to argue.

And that was the most stupid thing you ever said.

 

Your last post said you did see this as ground zero based on your picture, now why would you say that? Because you see some trash on the ground? Did the planes target and crash directly into this building in question or not? Did the attackers intend to attack this building or was it's being struck by parts just an accident?

 

 

What is the point of a terrorist attack IWS?

 

 

 

Do you think the attack was only intended to destroy the two buildings?

 

 

 

The intent was to instill fear, not just destroy a couple buildings. As an example let me offer you something you might better understand. You as a cop are ordered to disperse a crowd of angry demonstrators, so you deploy a pepper gas grenade into the crowd. Is the canister or the gas the agent your wanting to use as a tool to get the desired effect of dispersing the crowd?

 

 

 

The Muslims involved did not want to knock down two buildings, only an idiot would think that was their true objective. The Islamic terrorists wanted to strike at the heart of America, to cause us fear, to bring their fight to the land of the enemy. Their intent to spread fear was like the gas and the buildings are the canister.

 

 

That "gas" has spread well and now most of our leadership are scared to death. Before 9/11 we did not have muslim prayer in public schools, but we do today, and not one word against it from the ACLU. Today, we can't even admit the attacks at Fort Hood were related to his faith even thought that guy was screaming to Allah the entire time he was killing people. Normally liberals are very vocal and hostile to things like unfair treatments of women and such but when comes to Muslims, they are silent. It is inconceivable to them to put up any resistence to things so called "moderate" Muslims do even if it is obviously designed as a provacative act like building a mosque at ground zero.

 

 

 

So my point that you claim to not understand is that the terrorists were not just attacking New York, their "gas" of fear was intended for all of America. In fact, you do remember that there was more than one target....right? Do you belieeve those targets were selected for their individual importance alone or do you believe their overall effect on "all of America" was also a part of their attack?

 

The intent of dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was to end a world war. By your logic the fact that the "effect" of that action did end a world war, the entire world could be called, "ground zero" of those atomic bombs.

 

Dumbass.

[timesjoke]

The intent of dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was to end a world war. By your logic the fact that the "effect" of that action did end a world war, the entire world could be called, "ground zero" of those atomic bombs.

 

Dumbass.

So you know I just proved my point in my last example and instead of admitting you now understand my point was a good one, you completely ignore this example and desperately try to go back to my first example to salvage some dignity?

 

 

 

 

Okay, let's go back to that one, it is a good example too, I just used the 'gas' example because I figured you could better understand that the attack and damage caused was more than just the two buildings hit with planes.

 

 

 

 

So IWS, we did not drop one bomb right? We dropped that first bomb and still Japan refused to surrender, only after we dropped the second bomb did Japan surrender and the actual damage was not the reason, it was the "fear of more bombs" that forced the surrender.

 

Terror.

 

Wez long ago claimed America was also guilty of terrorist actions and even then I admitted he was right but the reaons and motivations were completely different. It is always intent that defines an action, if I kill someone for calling me a bad name I go to jail for murder, if I kill the same man to save the life of another person I am hailed as a hero......same dead body, but the difference is intent. Wez is incapable of seeing intent, neither is Joker, all they see is the negative when it comes to their own Country.

 

 

So the real intent for dropping the two nuclear bombs was not just to cause damage, but to instill fear and terror into the enemy and force them to react to that fear by surrendering. There is also the years of radiation and such that was also part of the nuclear attacks and that did also hurt more than just the blast zones.

 

 

 

 

So back to 9/11.

 

Was the intent of the 9/11 attacks only to destroy a couple buildings? I feel pretty sure it was not. The intent was to spread fear or "terror" (hence the label terrorist) so did their attack work? The liberals certainly act pretty scared to me..........

 

 

But all that is still irrelivent because part of a plane hit this building in question so it is obviously a direct part of the attack and as such part of ground zero, my other point about it actually directly hurting all of America was just a expanded point of how more than just New Yorkers were harmed and why more than just New Yorkers are voicing their opinions on this.

[hugo]

Since all of America is part of Ground Zero. Since TJ has already claimed to have built a mosque. I suspect he is just peeved because he did not get the contract.

[ImWithStupid]

Since all of America is part of Ground Zero. Since TJ has already claimed to have built a mosque. I suspect he is just peeved because he did not get the contract.

 

So what you're saying here is, TJ built a Ground Zero mosque, by his own claims and definitions.

 

Why then would he care about the one in Manhattan?

[wez]

What is the point of a terrorist attack IWS?

 

Do you think the attack was only intended to destroy the two buildings?

 

The intent was to instill fear, not just destroy a couple buildings.

So the real intent for dropping the two nuclear bombs was not just to cause damage, but to instill fear and terror..

hahahaha.. yeah.. I don't understand intent.. which was apparently the EXACT SAME according to you..

 

Guess you're saying they should have nuked us.. twice..

 

What a f cking genius..

 

What is ok for me to do to another human being is not ok for ANY other human being to do to me, or else ~ Times Joke

 

Stinkin' hypocrite.. wake up before you and your ilk destroy the entire world..

[wez]

Since all of America is part of Ground Zero. Since TJ has already claimed to have built a mosque. I suspect he is just peeved because he did not get the contract.

 

So what you're saying here is, TJ built a Ground Zero mosque, by his own claims and definitions.

 

Why then would he care about the one in Manhattan?

 

What he's saying is it's ok for TJ to build mosques like they're going out of style on "ground zero".. but not ok for anyone else to build them anywhere in the nation.. aka.. "ground zero".. according to TJ of course..

[jokersarewild]

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

That could possibly be the dumbest sh!t I've ever heard anyone try to argue.

And that was the most stupid thing you ever said.

Lol.

 

 

The Muslims involved did not want to knock down two buildings, only an idiot would think that was their true objective. The Islamic terrorists wanted to strike at the heart of America, to cause us fear, to bring their fight to the land of the enemy. Their intent to spread fear was like the gas and the buildings are the canister.

 

Pretty sure they succeeded. Look at the response to the Quran Burning in the media and such.

 

That "gas" has spread well and now most of our leadership are scared to death. Before 9/11 we did not have muslim prayer in public schools, but we do today, and not one word against it from the ACLU.

 

What in the flying f do you think the ACLU does? Limit speech? Attempt to crush religious freedom?

 

Joker, I am going to just wave you off on this topic, you only want to see the bad done by America but you completely ignore the greater good such as the millions we have saved by helping Afganistan fight off the Russians.

 

You truly are a moron. You didn't read what I said, did you? I said we helped the people of Afghan fight off the Russians. I never said we didn't. You keep thinking I did, I want to see the quote where I said we didn't help at all. Seriously. What I was saying is that Bin Laden wasn't actually part of the group we trained to help fight them off. He had his own independent group, doing their own thing, which eventually became Al-Queda. Nothing diminishing the US there.

 

If you tryly believe that America shoudl not get greater credit for the greater good then there is nothing I can say to sway you.

 

Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. America never did anything good.

 

At this point your arguing like a child, very similar to the way Wez just keeps pouring out hate and attacks while refusing to admit America is the sole reason freedom exists in the world. Sure there were other players, but America is and has always been the biggest player.

 

Wait, America is the sole reason freedom exists in the world? Ok, that's just taking it way, way too far. You seriously need to stop thinking America is the best thing in the world, buddy. Sure, we helped. And yes, we have freedom now. But there were quite a few years where we had slaves and such. True freedom has only been a fairly recent phenomenon. And yes, our help in world war 2 ensured that there would be free peoples throughout the world (where freedom does exist), but to say that freedom only came about because of the US is so absurd that I don't even know where to start.

 

And how are we currently the biggest player? By invading other countries that have nothing to do with anything? cough IRAQ cough . By attempting to start a war in Iraq? Sure, they don't have Saddam anymore, and he was an butt hole. But now they have many, many other issues. They still aren't really "free".

 

You don't believe Americans should feel a direct connection to the attacks of 9/11 and I respect your opinion, but you refuse to respect the opinions of those of us who do feel it is reasonable to feel that connection.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that you're so deeply connected that you blame people for something that they had no part in. It's like if a group of black people killed your family, and forever after you think all black people are evil. It's not true.

 

I respect that you felt more for the 9/11 attacks then I did. Fact: I was in 7th grade when that went down. I actually mentioned it to my stepdad the other day, and he was like "Yeah, you weren't old enough to fully realize what was happening." And he's right. Maybe I was too young for it to affect me as it did older people. I remember the whole thing as "3000 people died because some assholes hijacked some planes. That kinda sucks." Our Social Studies teacher explained to us what happened, but to be honest, we still didn't know. And our day-to-day lives didn't really change, besides more people spouting anti-Islam rhetoric, and the moments of silence for those who died. But really, I think my detachment has allowed me a more objective view of it than you have. You're basing your opinion off of emotion, not logic and fact. You're constantly trying to look up reasons that Muslims are bad. More power to you. But no matter how much you still keep saying Muslims are bad, or that they're constantly deceptive, or whatnot, that doesn't mean they are, and means that you're still applying sweeping generalizations to a group of people based on an emotional connection you feel to something that happened almost 9 years ago. Never forget, Times. But don't obsess.

 

You keep telling lies about me in saying I believe "ALL" Muslims are directly terrorists or even bad, I have never believed or said this even one time. You point is if I claim some are playing behind the sceenes, then I must also be saying all are and that is not the case.

 

No, asking me if I know what Taqiyya is, then saying Muslims practice it, seems to be saying "HA! They're all liars! Told you so!"

 

------"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke ------

Indeed.

 

This is my point, I believe more than 80% of all Muslims are not evil, are not terrorists, and are not directly helping the radical elements of their faith. But, at the same time their not directly standing up against those radical elements and "doing nothing" is helping evil.

 

You don't seem to understand how these terrorist groups work. Someone says something against them, they go "THEY'RE TRYING TO GO AGAINST US! THEY ARE INFIDELS!" The mosque doesn't get built? "THE US IS ATTACKING ISLAM! INFIDELS!" So honestly, it's probably better not to give them firepower. Don't say "God, those guys suck." Say "You know, Allah says peace is a good thing to do. Let us pray."

 

Now, about the wager, I bet you $100.00 that the "currently planned" location of this mosque/center, whatever title you want to call it will either not be built, or they will take out the mosque portion of the building. You willing to take me up on that wager? No word games, no childish attempts to squirm away from the intent of this wager, man up and either agree to the bet or not.

 

I couldn't afford that bet anyway. I'll bet $20 that it will be built there. You seem to forget: CASHIER AT WAL-MART. I can afford to lose 20, but if I lose 100 (assuming you win), then I don't eat this month. Also, in order to get said 20 (however we're storing the money until the point the bet ends), you'd have to wait until like the 28th, as this is a three paycheck month, and I can afford to get the money out of that.

[jokersarewild]

Actually, I just realized that I can't even afford that this month. I apologize, but must retract my wager.