stimulus bill 5,6,7?

[hugo]

Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism. A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not fiat money manipulated by a central bank. Capitalism cherishes voluntary contracts and interest rates that are determined by savings, not credit creation by a central bank. It's not capitalism when the system is plagued with incomprehensible rules regarding mergers, acquisitions, and stock sales, along with wage controls, price controls, protectionism, corporate subsidies, international management of trade, complex and punishing corporate taxes, privileged government contracts to the military-industrial complex, and a foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments. Add to this centralized federal mismanagement of farming, education, medicine, insurance, banking and welfare. This is not capitalism! Ron Paul

[phreakwars]

Still wanna know where those jobs are... all I get is finger pointing.

 

 

If you guys wanna back up your claims of how great the free market is, show me the jobs. Just saying it is, doesn't make it so.

.

.

 

How would you know? There hasn't been one in over a hundred years.

Really? Yet this ANCIENT form of government will work today? You can't show any evidence that it works, can't show where people were gettings jobs, can't show where the economy was climbing with that method, but I should just take it to heart that the free market is the way to go... EVEN THOUGH... every time anything is deregulated, it gets messed up... INCLUDING Fannie and Freddie which you like to use as an example.

.

.

[timesjoke]

Still wanna know where those jobs are... all I get is finger pointing.

 

 

If you guys wanna back up your claims of how great the free market is, show me the jobs. Just saying it is, doesn't make it so.

.

.

 

How would you know? There hasn't been one in over a hundred years.

Really? Yet this ANCIENT form of government will work today? You can't show any evidence that it works, can't show where people were gettings jobs, can't show where the economy was climbing with that method, but I should just take it to heart that the free market is the way to go... EVEN THOUGH... every time anything is deregulated, it gets messed up... INCLUDING Fannie and Freddie which you like to use as an example.

.

.

 

Being as you completely ignore every example shown you, it is no surprise that you can't see how anything but socialist ideas are valid. IWS just showed you a great example of how the housing market crash was delivered to us through the fannie/freddie mess caused by the Democrats, and you don't even care.

 

The Republicans tried to offer reform of Fannie and Freddie but guess who blocked those attempt?

 

In 2004 the Democrats even played the race card and said the only reason Republicans wanted to offer stricter regulations was because they hated black people......so the attempts were blocked and we see the result. No, I don't believe regulation at that point would have stopped all of the mess, but it would have severely reduced it, and that reduction was blocked by progressives.

[phreakwars]

So you admit it was a "DEREGULATED" Freddy and Fannie? See, sorry, you can call those "liberal" organizations if it comforts you, but the fact remains... they, as well as every other business in America, were allowed to run wild without over site or intervention, and they fukked up. Still wanna see those jobs. Come on TJ, be the first right winger EVER on all of the forums I visit to show me where that method created jobs. Where are the jobs?

.

.

[timesjoke]

So you admit it was a "DEREGULATED" Freddy and Fannie? See, sorry, you can call those "liberal" organizations if it comforts you, but the fact remains... they, as well as every other business in America, were allowed to run wild without over site or intervention, and they fukked up. Still wanna see those jobs. Come on TJ, be the first right winger EVER on all of the forums I visit to show me where that method created jobs. Where are the jobs?

.

.

 

Deregulated by progressives, at least get that part right Bender, be big enough to admit that when the conservatives tried to head off the mess, it was the Democrats who haulted the attempts and caused the massive free fall decline that came later. But you can't admit that can you Bender? Your just so self-deluded you can't see any solution to a problem unless it involves your progressives holding the reigns.

 

 

 

 

I don't really understand the meaning of your question Bender. How many 'poor' people employ other people? Zero.

 

 

So how makes the jobs? The so called 'rich' do, and who do you get them to make new jobs? The progressives must think calling them names, putting them down, or abusing them is the way to go but every time the progressives start their anti-business rhetoric, the jobs starts decline.

 

Under Bush job creation was still strong until the progressives took over the purse strings and started talking trash against business again, and guess what, jobs declined.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you want jobs created Bender? Then give the 'rich' a reason to make jobs, let them make a profit and they will create jobs that employ people but if you take away all the incentives to make a business, they why would they want to make one? You can't keep treating business like the goose that lays the golden egg and taxing them into oblivian.

 

 

Look at California Bender.

[jokersarewild]

So you admit it was a "DEREGULATED" Freddy and Fannie? See, sorry, you can call those "liberal" organizations if it comforts you, but the fact remains... they, as well as every other business in America, were allowed to run wild without over site or intervention, and they fukked up. Still wanna see those jobs. Come on TJ, be the first right winger EVER on all of the forums I visit to show me where that method created jobs. Where are the jobs?

.

.

 

Or hey, if he even had some sources. Where's the racism? Where did Repubs try to pass reform?

[timesjoke]

So you admit it was a "DEREGULATED" Freddy and Fannie? See, sorry, you can call those "liberal" organizations if it comforts you, but the fact remains... they, as well as every other business in America, were allowed to run wild without over site or intervention, and they fukked up. Still wanna see those jobs. Come on TJ, be the first right winger EVER on all of the forums I visit to show me where that method created jobs. Where are the jobs?

.

.

 

Or hey, if he even had some sources. Where's the racism? Where did Repubs try to pass reform?

 

 

Your lack of even a basic education on the issues is truly shocking, well, considering your educated in California I guess it should be expected:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

[phreakwars]

Do you want jobs created Bender? Then give the 'rich' a reason to make jobs, let them make a profit and they will create jobs

So where are the jobs?

 

Is that Fannie and Freddy's fault too?

.

.

[phreakwars]

Dumb ass right wing logic:

 

Give rich guys more money to hire more people to build more products that people can't afford to buy because they don't have jobs.

 

So how does that work anyway?

 

Oh look, I just hired 25 more employees with a big .gov tax break, that's 25 more employees to make shit that isn't selling because the economy fukking sucks.

 

Yeah, some help that is.

 

Dumb ass right wingers love speaking out for their own enslavement to the rich, they even DEMAND to be enslaved.

.

..

[ImWithStupid]

Dumb ass right wing logic:

 

Give rich guys more money to hire more people to build more products that people can't afford to buy because they don't have jobs.

 

So how does that work anyway?

 

Oh look, I just hired 25 more employees with a big .gov tax break, that's 25 more employees to make sh t that isn't selling because the economy fukking sucks.

 

Yeah, some help that is.

 

Dumb ass right wingers love speaking out for their own enslavement to the rich, they even DEMAND to be enslaved.

.

..

 

You just described Obama's plan to give tax rebates to businesses if they hire people. :lol:

[timesjoke]

Do you want jobs created Bender? Then give the 'rich' a reason to make jobs, let them make a profit and they will create jobs

So where are the jobs?

 

Is that Fannie and Freddy's fault too?

.

.

Where is the profit in creating a job under an administration and congress that is jumping at any excuse to demonize the private sector? There will not be any big flow of jobs until the Progressives stop treating the job creaters as the enemy.

 

 

 

 

 

Dumb ass right wing logic:

 

Give rich guys more money to hire more people to build more products that people can't afford to buy because they don't have jobs.

 

No, you keep missing the point, as usual, I don't want the Government to give anyone a dime of taxpayer money, I want the Government to let job creators "keep more of the money they earned".

 

 

So how does that work anyway?

 

Easy, stop trying to punish people just because they are creating jobs and being successful. It is called positive reinforcement, the Government can reward those who create jobs and guess what, you reward them with their own money and it does not cost the Government a dime.

 

Oh look, I just hired 25 more employees with a big .gov tax break, that's 25 more employees to make sh t that isn't selling because the economy fukking sucks.

 

And those new 25 workers are off the Government tit and at the same time they are earning money that the Government is now able to collect taxes from.

 

 

Yeah, some help that is.

 

Getting people off welfare and working in the private sector is the only help we can possibly have, the only thing the Government can give us is more poverty, as it is right now, and how all of California has found out.

 

 

Dumb ass right wingers love speaking out for their own enslavement to the rich, they even DEMAND to be enslaved.

.

..

 

 

If you think having a private sector job is being a slave, I guess your entitled to your opinion, but everything you offer as an alternative is even stricter enslavement to the Government whewre elitists like Obama and Al Gore mandate down to the masses what you can do, how you can do it, and when it is to be done. Letting the Governemtn enslave us is definately not going to give us prosperity, because they don't really believe in prosperity.

 

 

And that is the rub, progressives believe the American dream is gone, that people can't find success on their own and need the Federal Government to hand out success and life to the masses.

 

 

But people like me is proof against their propaganda. I am not really that different than anyone else, I work hard though and that hard work has helped me rebound twice, totally rebuild from complete loss two times and I can gurantee that it was not possible without the freedom to succeed based on my own work ethic. I do better than most Americans not because I am smarter, or because I am a movie star, or because the Government handed me more than someone else.....I am more successful because I work harder and have set goals that I am willing to bust my azz to attain.

 

 

 

The progressives want to "cap" failure, they believe all Americans need the Government to step in and provide every American with all their basic needs to survive, and doing this they also cap success. Each businessman in America will have such a massive burdon on them that only the select few will survive, only those who are permitted to survive (because they have the correct political friends) will survive, and the welfare rates of today will be only a small beginning to the unemployed numbers we will see in the future if we let them go through with their plans to remake America into a daycare center.

[phreakwars]

Dumb ass right wing logic:

 

Give rich guys more money to hire more people to build more products that people can't afford to buy because they don't have jobs.

 

So how does that work anyway?

 

Oh look, I just hired 25 more employees with a big .gov tax break, that's 25 more employees to make sh t that isn't selling because the economy fukking sucks.

 

Yeah, some help that is.

 

Dumb ass right wingers love speaking out for their own enslavement to the rich, they even DEMAND to be enslaved.

.

..

 

You just described Obama's plan to give tax rebates to businesses if they hire people. :lol:

It's better then giving a tax break for "PROMISES PROMISES" to create jobs with an end result of hoarding away profits in the Cayman Islands. At least this way, the employer would have something to show for to earn the tax break.

.

.

[jokersarewild]

So you admit it was a "DEREGULATED" Freddy and Fannie? See, sorry, you can call those "liberal" organizations if it comforts you, but the fact remains... they, as well as every other business in America, were allowed to run wild without over site or intervention, and they fukked up. Still wanna see those jobs. Come on TJ, be the first right winger EVER on all of the forums I visit to show me where that method created jobs. Where are the jobs?

.

.

 

Or hey, if he even had some sources. Where's the racism? Where did Repubs try to pass reform?

 

 

Your lack of even a basic education on the issues is truly shocking, well, considering your educated in California I guess it should be expected:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

 

Hm. Watching that, I'm sensing that there's more to it than just the Dems being morons. The lack of continuous video i.e. the cuts between clips, make me suspicious of the whole thing. And on the surface, it does seem like they're saying there's nothing wrong with Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

 

Suspicious like when Meeks is "beating up on the regulator". He's questioning why they should listen to OFHEO, and give them regulatory power, as this would be their fault in the first place.

 

Shay says that OFHEO has been manipulated for years by Fannie Mae, which is the same regulatory group who the Republicans insist should have more power. The question there is whether they'd still be able to manipulate them, as they were filthy rich.

 

Also, part of the video says that Raines is saying that houses aren't risky investments. I doubt Raines is that stupid. It seems more likely that he's talking about how the loans they give are backed by the government, so they are riskless in that they're always backed by money somehow.

[ImWithStupid]

Dumb ass right wing logic:

 

Give rich guys more money to hire more people to build more products that people can't afford to buy because they don't have jobs.

 

So how does that work anyway?

 

Oh look, I just hired 25 more employees with a big .gov tax break, that's 25 more employees to make sh t that isn't selling because the economy fukking sucks.

 

Yeah, some help that is.

 

Dumb ass right wingers love speaking out for their own enslavement to the rich, they even DEMAND to be enslaved.

.

..

 

You just described Obama's plan to give tax rebates to businesses if they hire people. :lol:

It's better then giving a tax break for "PROMISES PROMISES" to create jobs with an end result of hoarding away profits in the Cayman Islands. At least this way, the employer would have something to show for to earn the tax break.

.

.

 

No. It's not. What you keep describing, and what the Obama admin keeps prescribing, is central planning. We're going to take a bunch of your money in taxes, but if you do what we say you should do in your business, we'll give you some of your money back. We know better than you how to run your business.

 

It's government bureaucrats trying to decide what is best for and how to run private business.

 

I know you've never heard of him, but you might want to check out some Milton Friedman...

 

http://www.rightnetwork.com/episodes/860061523

 

Even big time left winger, socialist, Phil Donahue, try as he might, couldn't best him.

[timesjoke]

 

 

Hm. Watching that, I'm sensing that there's more to it than just the Dems being morons. The lack of continuous video i.e. the cuts between clips, make me suspicious of the whole thing. And on the surface, it does seem like they're saying there's nothing wrong with Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

 

These things last days sometimes, the only way to show the meat of the meetings is to use segments. I am sure you can find an old archive of the entire hearings if you really want to.

 

 

Republicans had been screaming about the lack of oversight with Fannie and freddie, they were even exempt from most of the rules other banking companies had to follow, that is why they caused this mess. Fannie and Freddie had a limit as to how much in loans they could hold at opne time so they would close a loan to someone who could not possibly pay that loan to term and then sell it to a private bank to free up money that can close another loan and sell that one too, over, and over, and over until they caused this mess.

 

 

Suspicious like when Meeks is "beating up on the regulator". He's questioning why they should listen to OFHEO, and give them regulatory power, as this would be their fault in the first place.

 

Your not keeping up with the point, slow down and stop looking for excuses to protect your progressives.

 

The OFHEO never had direct power over Fannie and Freddie, look at about 4 minutes into the video, the Democrat Davis admitted that they did not have any regulatory authority to place an ultamatum on them, basically saying the regulator over stepped himself even though he was just responding to a massive problem he discovered.

 

 

Several other places Republicans point out that Freddie and Fannie were exempt from many new laws that were created to regulate banks, they were completely free to do anything they wanted to do and when Republicans attempted to do something about it, the Democrats blocked it.

 

 

Shay says that OFHEO has been manipulated for years by Fannie Mae, which is the same regulatory group who the Republicans insist should have more power. The question there is whether they'd still be able to manipulate them, as they were filthy rich.

 

They were manipulated because the OFHEO had no real power over them, think of it like the weapons inspectors in Iraq, they were told to look around but they were kicked out over and over and blocked from seeing certain things.

 

If the Democrats had not blocked these attempts to make Fannie and Freddie accountable to someone, we would not have seen the massive crash that came later.

 

 

Also, part of the video says that Raines is saying that houses aren't risky investments. I doubt Raines is that stupid. It seems more likely that he's talking about how the loans they give are backed by the government, so they are riskless in that they're always backed by money somehow.

 

Your nieve.

 

No, they are not that stupid, they are driven by an ideology that makes the waste of Government money irrelivent. They knew there were problems and they did not care. This hearing clearly proved there were problems but the Democrats circled the wagons, started playing the race card, and blocked any new restrictions to what Fannie and Freddie were doing.

 

 

 

 

So I just proved to you that the Republicans did try to warn people, they did try to create new regulations to protect Americans, and only the Democrats blocked those protections and refused to protect Americans. The facts are there for you to see, the question is will you pull your head fromt he sand and admit it is there, or will you still be blinded by the lies from the progressives that they are blameless for the crashed economy?

 

 

Look behind all of these issues and you will find Conservatives fighting for solutions while Progressives are blocking those same solutions.

 

 

But all I can do is show you the door, it is you who has to walk through it.

[jokersarewild]

I was simply saying the video seemed to have more about it than was assumed by the fellow who made it. If I just took it as gospel, I'd be quite a bit more susceptible to your bullshit, TJ. And yes, it does seem as if the Dems blocked regulations. I'm still skeptical, but from what I've researched, that would seem the case.

[timesjoke]

I was simply saying the video seemed to have more about it than was assumed by the fellow who made it. If I just took it as gospel, I'd be quite a bit more susceptible to your bullshit, TJ.

 

You lacking eduction on the subject does not mean I am speaking bullshit kid. You have kept your head buried in the sand and your blindly defending the progressives based on your lack of knowledge, all I am doing is trying to educate you on some of the most basic things every American should know but it seems they don't care enough to actually see the facts.

 

 

The Republicans tried to save, or at least lessen the damge they saw comming in the housing market and it was the direct actions of the Progressives who blocked those attempts and force a much bigger crash then we should have had.

 

 

 

And yes, it does seem as if the Dems blocked regulations. I'm still skeptical, but from what I've researched, that would seem the case.

 

As I said, if you want to see the entire video for yourself I am sure it is archived somewhere, but their words are their words, you heard them defend Fannie and Freddie and say there were no problems that needed to be fixed, hard to change those words into a different meaning.

 

 

While your looking on your own take the time to also see where many bills were created by Republicans both before, and after this video that was designed to gain more control over these things and again it was the Democrats who blocked those bills from ever making it to the floor for a vote.

 

 

 

 

Would a crash of some sort still have happened?

 

 

Being fair I would have to say I believe it would have, Fannie and Freddie had inserted way too many irresponsible loans into the system for it to have no harmful reaction over time, the banks saw these loans failing and tried to do like Prividian credit card division did in getting more customers in the attempt to offset the losses for those who did not pay. So the banks were at fault because they started issuing the same kinds of loans the Government was issuing through Fannie and Freddie.

 

Basically, Fannie and Freddie ended up setting the standard all the other banks did business under.

 

 

And just like Providian that was once the largest credit card provider in America, it all came crumbling down.

 

 

 

So yes, I do believe even with the changes Republicans wanted to make, there would still have been a crash of some sort, but it would have been much smaller and not as devestating as the crash we did end up getting.