Guest Max Wachtel Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM db ´¯`·.. ><)))º>` .. ., after much thought, came up with this jewel:<span style="color:blue"> > just because it is a popular > program/freeware doesn't > mean that this thread is not > spam. > > ------------------------------ > in any case you guys should > read between the lines when > it comes to freeware: > > http://www.malwarebytes.org/privacy.php > > Malwarebytes may also collect certain information about your computer to > facilitate and evaluate your use of the Site and the Products and > Services. For example, we may log environmental variables, such as > browser type, operating system, CPU speed, referring or exit webpages, > and the Internet Protocol (IP) address of your computer. Malwarebytes > also uses such information to measure traffic patterns on the Site and > usage of the Products and Services. We do not match such information > with any other information held by Malwarebytes unless we have your > consent. > > --------------------- > > legally, the above term > "may" implies "will" > > information collected is > not limited to the above > > and "without your consent" > has no value legal standing > because as it would require > user to have knowledge and > oversight of such activities. > > ------------------------- > > also, all the fixes they > have made leads one > to wonder what all was > or was not done with the > previous versions. > > how many systems could > have become corrupted > as a result. > > -------------------------- > > freeware costs money to make > and provide. > > so users who utilize freeware > should not be whining that they > are also using information > aggregators as well, i.e.. > subtle spyware. > ------------------ > > my suggestion is to simply > scan for malware periodically > with a genuine program: > > http://www.microsoft.com/security/malwareremove/default.mspx > </span> I know you're retired and all but a refresher computer course seems to be in order. MSRT is a very limited tool compared to SAS and MBAM and is not meant to be replacement for a anti-spyware scanner but a supplement. -- Virus Removal http://max.shplink.com/removal.html Keep Clean http://max.shplink.com/keepingclean.html Change nomail.afraid.org to gmail.com to reply by email. nomail.afraid.org is specifically setup for use in USENET Quote
Guest db ´¯`·.. > Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM It is more than adequate. the only limitation it has is that it does not aggregate information for financial gain. I do not recommend MB but don't deny the right of others to use it, as long as they know the terms and conditions. I stand firmly against spywares cloaked as anti malwares. thank you. -- db·´¯`·...¸><)))º> DatabaseBen, Retired Professional - Systems Analyst - Database Developer - Accountancy - Veteran of the Armed Forces "share the nirvana" - dbZen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<span style="color:blue"> > ></span> "Max Wachtel" <maxwachtel@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message news:gnflms$2gv$1@news.motzarella.org...<span style="color:blue"> > db ´¯`·.. ><)))º>` .. ., after much thought, came up with this jewel:<span style="color:green"> >> just because it is a popular >> program/freeware doesn't >> mean that this thread is not >> spam. >> >> ------------------------------ >> in any case you guys should >> read between the lines when >> it comes to freeware: >> >> http://www.malwarebytes.org/privacy.php >> >> Malwarebytes may also collect certain information about your computer to facilitate and evaluate your use of the Site and the >> Products and Services. For example, we may log environmental variables, such as browser type, operating system, CPU speed, >> referring or exit webpages, and the Internet Protocol (IP) address of your computer. Malwarebytes also uses such information to >> measure traffic patterns on the Site and usage of the Products and Services. We do not match such information with any other >> information held by Malwarebytes unless we have your consent. >> >> --------------------- >> >> legally, the above term >> "may" implies "will" >> >> information collected is >> not limited to the above >> >> and "without your consent" >> has no value legal standing >> because as it would require >> user to have knowledge and >> oversight of such activities. >> >> ------------------------- >> >> also, all the fixes they >> have made leads one >> to wonder what all was >> or was not done with the >> previous versions. >> >> how many systems could >> have become corrupted >> as a result. >> >> -------------------------- >> >> freeware costs money to make >> and provide. >> >> so users who utilize freeware >> should not be whining that they >> are also using information >> aggregators as well, i.e.. >> subtle spyware. >> ------------------ >> >> my suggestion is to simply >> scan for malware periodically >> with a genuine program: >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/security/malwareremove/default.mspx >></span> > I know you're retired and all but a refresher computer course seems to be in order. MSRT is a very limited tool compared to SAS > and MBAM and is not meant to be replacement for a anti-spyware scanner but a supplement. > > -- > Virus Removal http://max.shplink.com/removal.html > Keep Clean http://max.shplink.com/keepingclean.html > Change nomail.afraid.org to gmail.com to reply by email. > nomail.afraid.org is specifically setup for use in USENET </span> Quote
Guest FromTheRafters Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 "~BD~" <~BD~@nomail.afraid.com> wrote in message news:gnfi6h$1k1$1@news.motzarella.org... <span style="color:blue"> > My point was - still is - that when people experience > computer problems, and end up in newsgroups seeking help, > they are directed to unknown places (for them). They are > then invited to download all manner of 'cleaning' > material - about which they have absolutely no knowledge > whatsoever - and they put blind trust in their 'helper'. > > Such activity, IMO, is wide open to abuse.</span> It is called "human nature" and you are right - it is easily exploited. Some refer to it as "social engineering" when software is crafted to exploit human nature. It is by far the most prevalent vulnerability in computer security. You spin the wheel and you take your chances. Usenet is the "wild west" of the internet. You just have to make your own decision about trust, and hopefully it is an informed decision. Quote
Guest Leythos Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM In article <3A61F2E3-B0DA-42B9-A176-C3220B205DDA@microsoft.com>, =?iso- 8859-1?Q?_db_=B4=AF`=B7.._=3E=3C=29=29=29=BA=3E`_.._.?= <databaseben at hotmail dot com> says...<span style="color:blue"> > It is more than adequate. > </span> No, it's not even close. MSRT does not detect or remote anywhere near as much as the tools that most of us recommend. The fact is that you just don't have the experience that most of us have and you attempt to present yourself as someone with more experience and knowledge than you have. I suggest that you sit back for a few years, read the groups, get a test computer and work with it on different things and even compromise it and learn how much each tool does to clean it - most of us have experience with thousands of compromised systems and networks. -- - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) Quote
Guest John Mason Jr Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 ~BD~ wrote:<span style="color:blue"> > "John Mason Jr" <notvalid@cox.net.invalid> wrote in message > news:gnf06j$327$1@reader.motzarella.org...<span style="color:green"> >> ~BD~ wrote:<span style="color:darkred"> >>> "Dustin Cook" <bughunter.dustin@gmail.com> wrote in message >>> news:Xns9BB498BACBEC3HHI2948AJD832@69.16.185.250... >>>>> How would a Windows user know that installing MBAM really is a good >>>>> thing to do? Whilst the programme may well remove all manner of >>>>> 'nasties' from the machine of a user, how can that user be certain >>>>> that it hasn't actually installed some badware too? >>>> Just one question.... Are you high? >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> Dustin Cook >>>> Malware Researcher >>>> MalwareBytes - http://www.malwarebytes.org >>>> >>> >>> No, Sir! >>> >>> Still naive? Probably! >>> >>> Correct me where I am wrong, please. >>> >>> My understanding is that 'malware' can be, and is, installed >>> surrepticiously upon millions of computers around the world. Often, a >>> user is unaware that a machine has been compromised. >>> >>> There are many 'help' forums available on the Internet. It seems only >>> logical that some such operations may take advantage of inexperienced >>> folk who do, without a second thought, download all manner of executable >>> programmes onto their machines (as instructed by a 'helper'). >>> >>> Once a machine has been declared 'clean' - how can the average user >>> possibly know that something 'nastie' has not been added to their >>> machine if it appears to operate 'normally'? >>> >>> This couldn't/wouldn't happen? Are you sure? >>> >>> -- >>> Dave</span> >> >> You should only download & run software on your computer that you trust, >> you need to decide what level of verification you require, and make >> appropriate decisions. >> >> >> John</span> > > > Thank you for taking the trouble to respond, John. I do understand! > > I do not doubt the credibility of MBAM even though the facility came from > nowhere in a very short time - what is it now? Three years perhaps? In a > similar timescale, SuperAntiSpyware came from nowhere too. I still remember > that expression "There's no such thing as a free lunch". > > My point was - still is - that when people experience computer problems, and > end up in newsgroups seeking help, they are directed to unknown places (for > them). They are then invited to download all manner of 'cleaning' material - > about which they have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever - and they put > blind trust in their 'helper'. > > Such activity, IMO, is wide open to abuse. > -- > Dave > > </span> Then the individuals are trusting the advise they are given. They may not understand the risks but it is still their responsibility to make the decision. John Quote
Guest db ?¯`·.. > Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM trolls like yourself don't know when to shut up. go back to working on your receptionist computer. -- db·?¯`·...?><)))º> DatabaseBen, Retired Professional - Systems Analyst - Database Developer - Accountancy - Veteran of the Armed Forces "share the nirvana" - dbZen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<span style="color:blue"> > ></span> "Leythos" <spam999free@rrohio.com> wrote in message news:MPG.2405322161e50842989944@us.news.astraweb.com...<span style="color:blue"> > In article <3A61F2E3-B0DA-42B9-A176-C3220B205DDA@microsoft.com>, =?iso- > 8859-1?Q?_db_=B4=AF`=B7.._=3E=3C=29=29=29=BA=3E`_.._.?= <databaseben at > hotmail dot com> says...<span style="color:green"> >> It is more than adequate. >></span> > > No, it's not even close. MSRT does not detect or remote anywhere near as > much as the tools that most of us recommend. > > The fact is that you just don't have the experience that most of us have > and you attempt to present yourself as someone with more experience and > knowledge than you have. > > I suggest that you sit back for a few years, read the groups, get a test > computer and work with it on different things and even compromise it and > learn how much each tool does to clean it - most of us have experience > with thousands of compromised systems and networks. > > -- > - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. > - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a > drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" > spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) </span> Quote
Guest Tom [Pepper] Willett Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM Hoople heads like yourself don't know when to shut up. Go back to working on your idiocracy exam. " db ?¯`·.. ><)))º>` .. ." <databaseben at hotmail dot com> wrote in message news:FBD3CB83-B51B-4277-B0D9-2EBBA9953F18@microsoft.com... : trolls like yourself : don't know when : to shut up. : : go back to working : on your receptionist : computer. : : -- : : db·?¯`·...?><)))º> : DatabaseBen, Retired Professional : - Systems Analyst : - Database Developer : - Accountancy : - Veteran of the Armed Forces : : "share the nirvana" - dbZen : : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > : > : : "Leythos" <spam999free@rrohio.com> wrote in message news:MPG.2405322161e50842989944@us.news.astraweb.com... : > In article <3A61F2E3-B0DA-42B9-A176-C3220B205DDA@microsoft.com>, =?iso- : > 8859-1?Q?_db_=B4=AF`=B7.._=3E=3C=29=29=29=BA=3E`_.._.?= <databaseben at : > hotmail dot com> says... : >> It is more than adequate. : >> : > : > No, it's not even close. MSRT does not detect or remote anywhere near as : > much as the tools that most of us recommend. : > : > The fact is that you just don't have the experience that most of us have : > and you attempt to present yourself as someone with more experience and : > knowledge than you have. : > : > I suggest that you sit back for a few years, read the groups, get a test : > computer and work with it on different things and even compromise it and : > learn how much each tool does to clean it - most of us have experience : > with thousands of compromised systems and networks. : > : > -- : > - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. : > - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a : > drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" : > spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) : Quote
Guest db ´¯`·.. > Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Re: SPAM you and your hoople head remarks... you're an arrogant s.o.b. so but out, troll. -- db·´¯`·...¸><)))º> DatabaseBen, Retired Professional - Systems Analyst - Database Developer - Accountancy - Veteran of the Armed Forces "share the nirvana" - dbZen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<span style="color:blue"> > ></span> "Tom [Pepper] Willett" <tom@youreadaisyifyoudo.com> wrote in message news:ub$AQ3ekJHA.3380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...<span style="color:blue"> > Hoople heads > like yourself > don't know > when to > shut up. > > Go back to > working on > your idiocracy > exam. > " db ?¯`·.. ><)))º>` .. ." <databaseben at hotmail dot com> wrote in message > news:FBD3CB83-B51B-4277-B0D9-2EBBA9953F18@microsoft.com... > : trolls like yourself > : don't know when > : to shut up. > : > : go back to working > : on your receptionist > : computer. > : > : -- > : > : db·?¯`·...?><)))º> > : DatabaseBen, Retired Professional > : - Systems Analyst > : - Database Developer > : - Accountancy > : - Veteran of the Armed Forces > : > : "share the nirvana" - dbZen > : > : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > > : > > : > : "Leythos" <spam999free@rrohio.com> wrote in message > news:MPG.2405322161e50842989944@us.news.astraweb.com... > : > In article <3A61F2E3-B0DA-42B9-A176-C3220B205DDA@microsoft.com>, =?iso- > : > 8859-1?Q?_db_=B4=AF`=B7.._=3E=3C=29=29=29=BA=3E`_.._.?= <databaseben at > : > hotmail dot com> says... > : >> It is more than adequate. > : >> > : > > : > No, it's not even close. MSRT does not detect or remote anywhere near as > : > much as the tools that most of us recommend. > : > > : > The fact is that you just don't have the experience that most of us have > : > and you attempt to present yourself as someone with more experience and > : > knowledge than you have. > : > > : > I suggest that you sit back for a few years, read the groups, get a test > : > computer and work with it on different things and even compromise it and > : > learn how much each tool does to clean it - most of us have experience > : > with thousands of compromised systems and networks. > : > > : > -- > : > - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. > : > - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a > : > drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist" > : > spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address) > : > > </span> Quote
Guest Ari© Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:51:32 -0500, John Mason Jr wrote: <span style="color:blue"> > ~BD~ wrote:<span style="color:green"> >> "John Mason Jr" <notvalid@cox.net.invalid> wrote in message >> news:gnf06j$327$1@reader.motzarella.org...<span style="color:darkred"> >>> ~BD~ wrote: >>>> "Dustin Cook" <bughunter.dustin@gmail.com> wrote in message >>>> news:Xns9BB498BACBEC3HHI2948AJD832@69.16.185.250... >>>>>> How would a Windows user know that installing MBAM really is a good >>>>>> thing to do? Whilst the programme may well remove all manner of >>>>>> 'nasties' from the machine of a user, how can that user be certain >>>>>> that it hasn't actually installed some badware too? >>>>> Just one question.... Are you high? >>>>> -- >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Dustin Cook >>>>> Malware Researcher >>>>> MalwareBytes - http://www.malwarebytes.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> No, Sir! >>>> >>>> Still naive? Probably! >>>> >>>> Correct me where I am wrong, please. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that 'malware' can be, and is, installed >>>> surrepticiously upon millions of computers around the world. Often, a >>>> user is unaware that a machine has been compromised. >>>> >>>> There are many 'help' forums available on the Internet. It seems only >>>> logical that some such operations may take advantage of inexperienced >>>> folk who do, without a second thought, download all manner of executable >>>> programmes onto their machines (as instructed by a 'helper'). >>>> >>>> Once a machine has been declared 'clean' - how can the average user >>>> possibly know that something 'nastie' has not been added to their >>>> machine if it appears to operate 'normally'? >>>> >>>> This couldn't/wouldn't happen? Are you sure? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave >>> >>> You should only download & run software on your computer that you trust, >>> you need to decide what level of verification you require, and make >>> appropriate decisions. >>> >>> >>> John</span> >> >> Thank you for taking the trouble to respond, John. I do understand! >> >> I do not doubt the credibility of MBAM even though the facility came from >> nowhere in a very short time - what is it now? Three years perhaps? In a >> similar timescale, SuperAntiSpyware came from nowhere too. I still remember >> that expression "There's no such thing as a free lunch". >> >> My point was - still is - that when people experience computer problems, and >> end up in newsgroups seeking help, they are directed to unknown places (for >> them). They are then invited to download all manner of 'cleaning' material - >> about which they have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever - and they put >> blind trust in their 'helper'. >> >> Such activity, IMO, is wide open to abuse. >> -- >> Dave >> </span> > > Then the individuals are trusting the advise they are given. They may > not understand the risks but it is still their responsibility to make > the decision. > > John</span> Watching this "debate" is like a room full of Christian women who are commenting about each others blue hair. -- Meet Ari! http://tr.im/1fa3 "To get concrete results, you have to be confrontational". Quote
Guest No One Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 The person who calls himself "Ari", but who's real name is Frank J. Camper, used this as his signature in his post above: Meet Ari! http://tr.im/1fa3 Only thing is, the person depicted in the photograph at http://tr.im/1fa3 is not Frank J. Camper, or as he calls himself, "Ari". That is a photo of "Kinky" Friedman, who has a webpage at http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/ FYI Quote
Guest ~BD~ Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 "1PW" <barcrnahgjuvfgyr@nby.pbz> wrote in message news:gnea0q$80v$1@news.motzarella.org...<span style="color:blue"> > On 02/17/2009 12:47 AM, ~BD~ sent:<span style="color:green"> >> "Dustin Cook" <bughunter.dustin@gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:Xns9BB498BACBEC3HHI2948AJD832@69.16.185.250...<span style="color:darkred"> >>>> How would a Windows user know that installing MBAM really is a good >>>> thing to do? Whilst the programme may well remove all manner of >>>> 'nasties' from the machine of a user, how can that user be certain >>>> that it hasn't actually installed some badware too?</span> >><span style="color:darkred"> >>> Just one question.... Are you high?</span> >><span style="color:darkred"> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Dustin Cook >>> Malware Researcher >>> MalwareBytes - http://www.malwarebytes.org >>></span> >> >> >> No, Sir!</span></span> Hello Pete style_emoticons/ Thank you for your email message, short and sweet though it was! I had hoped that you would have responded to my reply but ............... ah, well! <span style="color:blue"><span style="color:green"> >> >> Still naive? Probably!</span> > > Paranoid? ></span> A long time ago someone said to me " Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean that someone is not following you!" - Think on that! No - I am not paranoid. I am seeking only the truth and a better understanding of what bad guys do and why they do it. Oh yes ...... and how ! <span style="color:blue"><span style="color:green"> >> Correct me where I am wrong, please. >> >> My understanding is that 'malware' can be, and is, installed >> surreptitiously >> upon millions of computers around the world. Often, a user is unaware >> that a >> machine has been compromised.</span> > > Almost a bit like Conficker, huh? Reads like good, safe computing and > realtime antimalware applications are needed Dave.</span> I have tried many anti-virus and anti-spyware programmes - free ones, trial ones and some I have purchased from a retail store on disk. I have also been to many dark and nasty places on the 'net and have no doubt at all that my PC has been attacked. I've experimented with 'cleaning' with the help of helpers on forums (some say fora!). I have experimented with Hijackthis without help. I have played with Combofix, ATF Cleaner, SmitfraudFix etc. I have also looked inside every file in System 32 using Notepad ('cause I could and had the time!) I have flattened both this and a previous machine many, many times and have also used Norton Ghost from time to time too. <span style="color:blue"> ><span style="color:green"> >> There are many 'help' forums available on the Internet. It seems only >> logical that some such operations may take advantage of inexperienced >> folk >> who do, without a second thought, download all manner of executable >> programmes onto their machines (as instructed by a 'helper').</span> > > Reputation leads to trust. If David Lipman suggested an MBAM scan for a > particular infection you described in /your/ computer, what would you do?</span> In essence, do I trust David H Lipman? In spite of all the bad things said about pcbutts1 - the only person ever to send me pornographic filth by email was Mr Lipman himself. <span style="color:blue"> ><span style="color:green"> >> Once a machine has been declared 'clean' - how can the average user >> possibly >> know that something 'nastie' has not been added to their machine if it >> appears to operate 'normally'?</span> > > Intrusion Detection Systems (IDS), realtime antimalware scans, or > flatten, rebuild, restore from backups.</span> My point is, Pete, that if all appears to operate normally, a user will not seek out rogue programmes which may be running on their machine. A machine could be compromised without their knowledge. <span style="color:blue"> ><span style="color:green"> >> This couldn't/wouldn't happen? Are you sure?</span> > > You already know that answer.</span> I do know - it can and does happen. The question remains, though ............. are some of those purporting to be good guys actually bad guys in cognito? <span style="color:blue"> ><span style="color:green"> >> -- >> Dave</span> > > Trust must start somewhere and some paranoia is useful. > > MBAM has our trust through its reputation Dave. A bogus MBAM /could/ be > downloaded from a disreputable source of course. But by only > downloading from MalwareBytes.com, it comes as close to 100% trust as is > possible. > > Some software authors will provide md5/sha1 hashes or PGP/GPG signed > files that accompany the download and this is welcomed by some, but some > reluctance on the part of authors and users is making that level of > verification difficult. How then do we implement: trust but verify? > > If one is paralyzed by so much suspicion and doubt, then it's probably > best to leave your computer turned off or only surf the net and do email > through LiveCDs. > > What will you do now Dave?</span> I really appreciate your help and advice, Pete. I read posts which you make to others experiencing difficulty and I have no concerns about anything you say. Although I still know little about computing matters I have a sixth sense when it comes to noticing how some who post react and/or do not tell the truth or who are inconsistent in their answers. My strong inclination is to use Linux on this PC (when I can master things better) ....... and buy myself an iMac after this years boating season! -- Dave Quote
Guest ~BD~ Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 Btw - it's not just me who thinks these things An integrated approach to endpoint protection The IT threat landscape has changed dramatically over the past few years. In the past, the majority of attacks were meant simply to make headline news. Today, attacks have become more sophisticated and stealthy, targeting specific organizations to reap financial gain. Professional hackers continuously develop new tactics to gain unauthorized, undetected, and ongoing access to an organization's systems and information. One gauge of the growing sophistication of attacks is the appearance of blended threats, which integrate multiple attack methods such as worms, Trojan horses, and zero-day threats. Antivirus, antispyware, and other signature-based protection measures, which are primarily reactive, may have been sufficient to protect an organization's vital resources a few years ago, but not so today. Organizations now need proactive endpoint security measures that can protect against zero-day attacks and even unknown threats. They need to take a structured approach to endpoint security, implementing a comprehensive solution that not only protects from threats on all levels, but also provides interoperability, seamless implementation, and centralized management. From: SymantecT Endpoint Protection A unified, proactive approach to endpoint security Quote
Guest Wolf K Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 ~BD~ wrote:<span style="color:blue"> > "1PW" <barcrnahgjuvfgyr@nby.pbz> wrote in message </span> [...]<span style="color:blue"><span style="color:green"> >> Paranoid? >></span> > > A long time ago someone said to me " Just because you are paranoid, it > doesn't mean that someone is not following you!" - Think on that! > > No - I am not paranoid. I am seeking only the truth and a better > understanding of what bad guys do and why they do it. Oh yes ...... and > how ! > > </span> [...] "The assumption that one is the target of random evil is not paranoia but prudence." And you may quote me on that. ;-) Cheers, wolf k. Quote
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