The Abortion Debate. A Cultural View VS A Personal View.

[Jeezy]

^^so...you would just kill a life like that just because you don't want to have a baby?

[Lyson]

...me...i would, but a baby in its earliest stages is not really a life.

Its kinda like if a tumor grows on you...get rid of it before its too late XD

 

BUt i would make the effort not to have a baby... :]

[GraDoN]

well all i can say is that (if i was female, which thank goodness, im not) if i was to get a abortion i would never be able to get over it since its murder. But i would also never judge a person if she did it.

[Lyson]

well all i can say is that (if i was female, which thank goodness, im not) if i was to get a abortion i would never be able to get over it since its murder. But i would also never judge a person if she did it.

 

see, now thats good.

Have your own feelings but be able to not stand in judgement of someone who doesn't feel the same way.:thumbsup:

[HaziLPTonz]

like lysons said, a baby in its early phase isnt technically life, no matter which way u look at it, it hasnt expierienced anything, it hasnt taken any first breaths, however a mother has lived years already, if we look at it from any angle, in most cases a woman will find out shes having a baby before the baby has fully developed "legally", so in a way, under current laws, if a mother DID have an abortion(whether legal or illegal) its not constituted as murder

 

and jeezy, im not trying to pry, im just saying, what if your own family was in a position where they had an unwanted pregnancy(like many people already, and not just rape) and they wanted to get rid of it(because if they WANTED the baby,why would people bother to argue?)? because this is a debate about personal choice against prejudice of culture, its all good and easy to say "i know my own family and all the circumstances" etc etc because i'v seen it first hand, a mother who wouldnt give up the baby for the world but was pushed very close to aborting so that she and her husband could push forward long enough to earn enough for a) themselves to survive, then b) to properly take care of the baby, and no i may not be able to judge from ur point of view, the point of my post was to ask for a general opinion if you WERE caught in a situation like that, you seem hell bent on the "the baby has a life" while forgetting who has to give birth to it

 

i know myself id allow for personal choice, it, for ALL tense and purposes, SHOULD be up to the mother, because SHE carries it, she NURTURES it, she may well ultimately end up caring for it, who are we as guys to tell what a woman what to do? or if that very least, allow, like i've said, a flexible law which allows for leeway, whichever it way it may go

 

 

the rape/incest thing is done, we all seem to agree to SOME degree that this should be allowed as an "exception" to the non-abortion thing.

 

in other new, there are LARGE calls for the morning-after pill(essentially a "flush the semen" pill) to be free. in a survey it was found alot of women( i dont recall how many exactly, but roughly 1/2) would fall unexpectedly pregnant or would hafto deal with some form of situation like it in their lives, and with a seemingly alarming increase in teenage unwanted pregnancies, that this was a big step to solving that solution of unwanted pregnancies as well as abandoned/orphaned, extra strain a baby puts on the family as well as allowing the mother extra time in life to prepare for a proper pregnancy

[Clogz]

If you have sex, you will always have the chance of getting pregnant. No amount of rubber, chemicals, and speed (in pulling out) will prevent nature from running its course should you slip up.

 

We, as human beings, should be genetically engineered to pigmented tattoos above our crotches that say - WARNING: Sex causes babies

 

Seriously, though. I think abortion is sick, wrong, and irresponsible. I honestly don't comperehend this whole "they aren't really alive because they are just a clump of cells" business. A patch of skin on my finger is just a clump of cells...my heart valve is just a clump of cells...my gray matter is a clump of cells (and fat, I digress).

 

Who decides the worth of a clump of cells? Weren't we all just a clump of cells at one point? In some ways, we still are. Who are we to decide the worth of human being?

 

If you have ever seen Gattaca, at the end of the movie they list some people who would have been genetically re-engineered (and changed as a person) to 'fit the mold'....Albert Einstein, Michaelangelo, Abraham Lincoln, and Stephen Hawking made that list among many others.

 

What if that baby you abort...what if that baby had grown up and cured cancer? What if that baby grew up to form a band (like LP, for example) that played life-changing music?

 

How dare somebody give a human being life, then take it away upon realizing they will be more hassle to have than to just kill.

[HaziLPTonz]

thats like saying...what if that baby turns out to be the next vienna struangler? or the next amss murderer in ur home town? what if he/she grows up to take over the world? what if they just played emo music? what if they grew up to invent a new a-bomb? what if they ran over another person somewhere 50 years away while they were drunk? what if they ran into the wrong crowd and just did drugs their whole life? what if...

 

what if...

 

people hafto remember that its not jsut genetics that make up a persons brains/mentality etc, it takes nurture as well as nature to turn someone into Einstein, Beethoven etc, you think most musical geiniuses just pick up an instrument and all of a sudden know where the b flat and the c sharp is? interest can only take someone so far

 

what if...

 

i'll tell you who should decide what that clump of cells is worth, and it aint you or me, and it hell shouldnt be politicians, it should be the MOTHER, that MOTHER who will carry it, nurture it,feed it etc she, and she alone should be the sole decision maker, whether this is the next einstein or port arthur gunman, the one who will ultimately carry those clumps of cells in her womb, that feed off her nutrients, give her back pains for months, force her out of work for a few months, give her the pain of her life while she forces it out, the decision should be left up to her whether she can go through the process.

[Lyson]

Tonz;568958']thats like saying...what if that baby turns out to be the next vienna struangler? or the next amss murderer in ur home town? what if he/she grows up to take over the world? what if they just played emo music? what if they grew up to invent a new a-bomb? what if they ran over another person somewhere 50 years away while they were drunk? what if they ran into the wrong crowd and just did drugs their whole life? what if...

 

:thumbsup: i agree, anything can happen

[Clogz]

Tonz;568958']

i'll tell you who should decide what that clump of cells is worth, and it aint you or me, and it hell shouldnt be politicians, it should be the MOTHER, that MOTHER who will carry it, nurture it,feed it etc she, and she alone should be the sole decision maker, whether this is the next einstein or port arthur gunman, the one who will ultimately carry those clumps of cells in her womb, that feed off her nutrients, give her back pains for months, force her out of work for a few months, give her the pain of her life while she forces it out, the decision should be left up to her whether she can go through the process.

 

Wow. You are right. Fetuses are nothing but parasites.:-|

 

But I, once being a fetus, would have to say that it is very sad that in the global mindset of 'me me me', we have even extended that to killing unborn children simply because they get in the way.

 

Like I said before, no sex = no babies = no problems. Almost every pro-choicer I have met has an active sex life. The only reason these people want it this way is because they have a personal, and selfish, stake in it.

[HaziLPTonz]

well what you are saying and what im implying are completely different things.

 

and you,as a fetus, would not have had any thoughts on the matter, you as a fetus wouldnt have been able to comprehend whats happening 10cm ahead of you let alone whats happening in the "big bad world", and this "global" mindset of "me me me" has been around for...well...forever? even now, i dont think you comprehend whats happening out there, grow up, its not all sunshine and daisys out there, we all live for ourselves, EVEN YOU LIVE FOR YOURSELF, you are no mother theresea, dont go preaching that you are

 

and when is killing a fetus(lets extend those who take the morning pill) getting in the way? yes, for some it is a personal issue, but then again, what about for those who were raped? those the victims of incest? thats the stupidest thing iv heard, you seem to be the selfish one here, you're gonna stand there,eyeball a rape victim and say "no, no abortion", you hafto realise what unwanted pregnancies mean for people, you think no sex is going to work? you going to go out there and preach "no sex" and people will magically realise this? EVERYONE knows that no sex=no pregnancies, and yet babies still appear...wowsers

 

i'm pro choice, i wouldnt exactly say i have the most 'active' sex life.yes im a tad young, but regardless, my ideas arent "selfish", i dont have a pregnant gf i want to ditch, theres very little chance of me getting pregnant, and yet im "pro choice", go figure right?

 

this stupid statement of "only killing the unborn for selfish reasons", like i said, what about rape victims? what about pre-teen rape?what about incest? id think that the fetus represents something a LITTLE more than a hump in the road dont you think? and i suppose it WOULD be selfish of them wouldnt it? but then again, they DID just go through one of the worst ordeals in their life, imagine a teenager in high school is raped and falls pregnant, what happens then? not to mention the psychological and physical damage, she now has to contend with a baby, what of her education? her dreams? what do you think will happen?

 

what if i, as a guy, masturbates, arent i just getting rid of semen? one half of an essential part of the building blocks to a baby? arent i just "killing" babies? does that make me a mass murderer then? am i just being selfish? essentially i am getting rid of "possible einsteins and cancer curers" arent i? shouldnt it apply to guys too? that if women cant be allowed to stop the egg production, guys shouldnt be allowed to just dump the millions of sperm evertime they knock one off? but thats silly right? even a tad selfish?

 

heres a solution, BE in the situation, SEE how much a woman sufffers when she doesnt want a pregnancy, REALiSE what ramifications it has on HER life, how MUCH it changes things, its EASY for you to say whatever you want when it doesnt affect you and you lead your your life with your false morality, lets see what you would do when someone close to you is caught in a situation(regardless of selfish or not) like choosing to abort,for WHATEVER reason

[Clogz]

Tonz;569287']well what you are saying and what im implying are completely different things.

 

and you,as a fetus, would not have had any thoughts on the matter, you as a fetus wouldnt have been able to comprehend whats happening 10cm ahead of you let alone whats happening in the "big bad world", and this "global" mindset of "me me me" has been around for...well...forever? even now, i dont think you comprehend whats happening out there, grow up, its not all sunshine and daisys out there, we all live for ourselves, EVEN YOU LIVE FOR YOURSELF, you are no mother theresea, dont go preaching that you are

 

and when is killing a fetus(lets extend those who take the morning pill) getting in the way? yes, for some it is a personal issue, but then again, what about for those who were raped? those the victims of incest? thats the stupidest thing iv heard, you seem to be the selfish one here, you're gonna stand there,eyeball a rape victim and say "no, no abortion", you hafto realise what unwanted pregnancies mean for people, you think no sex is going to work? you going to go out there and preach "no sex" and people will magically realise this? EVERYONE knows that no sex=no pregnancies, and yet babies still appear...wowsers

 

i'm pro choice, i wouldnt exactly say i have the most 'active' sex life.yes im a tad young, but regardless, my ideas arent "selfish", i dont have a pregnant gf i want to ditch, theres very little chance of me getting pregnant, and yet im "pro choice", go figure right?

 

this stupid statement of "only killing the unborn for selfish reasons", like i said, what about rape victims? what about pre-teen rape?what about incest? id think that the fetus represents something a LITTLE more than a hump in the road dont you think? and i suppose it WOULD be selfish of them wouldnt it? but then again, they DID just go through one of the worst ordeals in their life, imagine a teenager in high school is raped and falls pregnant, what happens then? not to mention the psychological and physical damage, she now has to contend with a baby, what of her education? her dreams? what do you think will happen?

 

what if i, as a guy, masturbates, arent i just getting rid of semen? one half of an essential part of the building blocks to a baby? arent i just "killing" babies? does that make me a mass murderer then? am i just being selfish? essentially i am getting rid of "possible einsteins and cancer curers" arent i? shouldnt it apply to guys too? that if women cant be allowed to stop the egg production, guys shouldnt be allowed to just dump the millions of sperm evertime they knock one off? but thats silly right? even a tad selfish?

 

heres a solution, BE in the situation, SEE how much a woman sufffers when she doesnt want a pregnancy, REALiSE what ramifications it has on HER life, how MUCH it changes things, its EASY for you to say whatever you want when it doesnt affect you and you lead your your life with your false morality, lets see what you would do when someone close to you is caught in a situation(regardless of selfish or not) like choosing to abort,for WHATEVER reason

 

I'm not not talking about rape and incest victims here, lets be clear on that. To me, that aspect of abortion is a non-issue. If a woman is forced into sex, then she does hold the right to an abortion.

 

I am talking about women who were not forced, who are having consensual sex. Now that I've squared away over half of this post, lets get to the debate.

 

1.) In regards to the fetus comments: No comment. If the concept of 'humanity on the cellular level' is beyond your spectrum, then there is nothing to be gained from continuing this.

- sub point: I never said people have to stop having sex, I just stated it is a pretty common sense contraceptive. I expect people to keep having sex. I am just shocked when people freak out when they found out they are pregnant, yet they lead an active sex life. It is like going to a cook-out and being shocked by the presence of a grill.:-|

 

2.) Masturbation? Oh, I see what you did there.:rofl:

Maybe this would be more relevant to me if I did masturbate, but I don't.

Oh, and the stalling of egg production is not, repeat NOT the same thing as abortion. I have no problem with contraceptives, just murder.

 

 

3.) Now, this next part...this is insulting and I know you meant it to be. So congradulations for pounding your "ignorant uncaring selfish a-hole" stamp all over my forehead. I'll spend the next five seconds wiping it off before I proceed.

 

*wipes*

 

Moving on, I hope you were happy and felt just conviction in your labeling.

Let's see here

..hmm...

oh yes! I distinctly remember how, when I was around 12, my then 17 year old cousin got pregnant.

I remember how she was kicked out of her house, and my parents opened their door and welcomed her in.

I remember how she had to drop out of high school to get a job, to raise money for the hospital bills that would be coming.

I remember how she was shunned by people who told her they loved her.

I remember how it tore are extended family apart for several years.

I am also recollecting how she ended up in my parents moist, slightly moldy basement in a small room, with no job, future uncertain, boyfriend freaking out, and all with a kid on the way.

 

(Just one of many examples, but this one shaped me the most)

 

I witnessed what unplanned pregnancy is like when I was 12. And yet, I'm pro-life, go figure, right? I've been there, I've seen it happen, I realize what it means. Don't take me for a fool. If I had not had real world experience with topic, you can sure bet I would have never posted a word.

 

Rule for life: Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have not had the same experiences as you have.

[HaziLPTonz]

oh yes! I distinctly remember how, when I was around 12, my then 17 year old cousin got pregnant.

I remember how she was kicked out of her house, and my parents opened their door and welcomed her in.

I remember how she had to drop out of high school to get a job, to raise money for the hospital bills that would be coming.

I remember how she was shunned by people who told her they loved her.

I remember how it tore are extended family apart for several years.

I am also recollecting how she ended up in my parents moist, slightly moldy basement in a small room, with no job, future uncertain, boyfriend freaking out, and all with a kid on the way.

 

you've expiereinced, you've seen the pain first hand, yet you'd condone it if it happened again? lets be clear, by condone i mean u took the pro-life path, not condone as in you'd want her to suffer or want any form of future suffering to happen

 

my view and your view on life differ, lets just stop it there, we've debated this through 3-4 pages now, my view is life is one that has expierienced, i dont see a bunch of cells that hasnt developed a finger let alone half a brain as "life"

 

the masturbation wasnt aimed particuarly at you, its a general populus thing, many of the "pro-life" people arent just catholics or those with a penchant for hypocrisy, theyre mainly male, and my point was if you defined life on a cellular level, wouldnt it be the same of sperm and guys masturbating? arent they essentially flushing away lives? see, you DIDNT see what i was doing with the masturbating comment

 

i pounded tht "your a selfish asshole" perception on you as that what i got from your post, it smacked purely of hypocrisy, especially in your next post when you said you'd seen the pain, you;d acknowledged the suffering yet wouldnt hesitate to condone it, plus those stupid lil emoticons of the "duhhhh" showed nothing more than childishness

 

 

and lets end this, your first part, had you said that, i wouldnt have said anything, becuase if you read my posts, i said that if a woman was just aborting for the SAKE of aborting rather than any good reason like rape...incest...monetary..family issues, then no, i also said it should be the woman carrying that fetuses issue, i assume falsely you were talking about abortion as a whole since you sepcified nothing but 'abortion is bad' 'people shoudlnt have sex' 'no sex=no pregnancy' etc

 

i am sorry for any personal attacks(purposeful or not) that was aimed at you, this kind of debate can bring out the worst in me

[Clogz]

Tonz;569960']you've expiereinced, you've seen the pain first hand, yet you'd condone it if it happened again? lets be clear, by condone i mean u took the pro-life path, not condone as in you'd want her to suffer or want any form of future suffering to happen

 

my view and your view on life differ, lets just stop it there, we've debated this through 3-4 pages now, my view is life is one that has expierienced, i dont see a bunch of cells that hasnt developed a finger let alone half a brain as "life"

 

the masturbation wasnt aimed particuarly at you, its a general populus thing, many of the "pro-life" people arent just catholics or those with a penchant for hypocrisy, theyre mainly male, and my point was if you defined life on a cellular level, wouldnt it be the same of sperm and guys masturbating? arent they essentially flushing away lives? see, you DIDNT see what i was doing with the masturbating comment

 

i pounded tht "your a selfish asshole" perception on you as that what i got from your post, it smacked purely of hypocrisy, especially in your next post when you said you'd seen the pain, you;d acknowledged the suffering yet wouldnt hesitate to condone it, plus those stupid lil emoticons of the "duhhhh" showed nothing more than childishness

 

 

and lets end this, your first part, had you said that, i wouldnt have said anything, becuase if you read my posts, i said that if a woman was just aborting for the SAKE of aborting rather than any good reason like rape...incest...monetary..family issues, then no, i also said it should be the woman carrying that fetuses issue, i assume falsely you were talking about abortion as a whole since you sepcified nothing but 'abortion is bad' 'people shoudlnt have sex' 'no sex=no pregnancy' etc

 

i am sorry for any personal attacks(purposeful or not) that was aimed at you, this kind of debate can bring out the worst in me

 

Apologies accepted, just remember it is a debate - not a quarrel. :thumbsup:

The goal of a debate is not to prove one's point but rather hear and respond to other views on a matter.

 

When a debate loses its ability to be impersonal, it should be stopped. I respect your maturity for acting along that line of logic.:thumbsup: