Guest Scott Richter Posted March 3, 2007 Posted March 3, 2007 Pastor Frank <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote: > "Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message > news:70qeu21934vf7sp50ejdu2g6eduqn4ljtb@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:44:09 +0800, in alt.atheism > > "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in > > <45e7076a$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>: > >>"Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message > >>news:2ho9u25n0bfth0pee9taf3gkua6vn3tev2@4ax.com... > >>> On 26 Feb 2007 22:20:17 -0800, in alt.atheism > >>> "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in > >>>> > >>>>In any event, if you think I am mocking Jesus, why don't you take your > >>>>complaint to him when he returns to judge the earth? > >>> > >>> Because there is no evidence that Jesus will ever return and there is a > >>> great deal of evidence that people are harmed by the teachings of those > >>> who claim to be the followers of Jesus. > >>> > >> There you go again making broad accusations without presenting a shred > >>of evidence. > > > > Are you trying to deny that there have been people who claim to be > > followers of Jesus but have caused serious harm in the world with their > > evil? > > > Are you simple minded, that you should believe Satan's minions who claim > to be followers of Christ, yet do the opposite from what Christ commanded, > as well as justify doing so. That's why Jesus said: By their actions ye > shall know them. Yet you believe their words instead of their actions? If someone claims to be a Christian, constantly prays to Jesus, and employs the words of Christ to justify their actions, then he is a Christian, period. The problem, however, is that you apparently can't reconcile the fact that those actions often are heinous acts of violence. But an evil Christian is still a Christian, because he still inhabits the fantasy world you all share... Quote
Guest stumper Posted March 3, 2007 Posted March 3, 2007 Pastor Frank wrote: > "stumper" <stumper@newvessel.com> wrote in message > news:eumdnS9prupYvHrYnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@ptd.net... >> Pastor Frank wrote: >>> "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in message >>> news:1172556961.386584.45770@z35g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... >>> On Feb 26, 8:25�pm, Don Kresch <ROT13.qxer...@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: >>>> I don't. I just think it's amusing how childish you are. >>>> >>> I have never thought you were amusing. And you are not childish. You >>> are evil. >>> Robert B. Winn >>> --------- >>> These insults are just refuting ploys by Satan's minions to make >>> people STOP talking about Jesus. Will we let them? Hell NO!!!! We will >>> shout His most holy and perfect name from the roof tops if need be, and >>> no atheists are going to stop us!!!!! >> Just like suicide bombers in Iraq? >> ~Stumper >> > Notice the Golden Rule of Christ below. Are you telling us you would > never become a terrorist were your country bombed and invaded. Would you be > suitably shocked and awed and become immediately compliant and docile? > If not that, what would you do? > > Pastor Frank > > The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ, which would > make war, if not ALL of man's inhumanity to man extinct, nay totally > unthinkable: > THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST > Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy > heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy > strength: this is the first commandment. > 31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour > as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. > Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two > commandments." > THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST, or Ethic of Reciprocity > Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men > should do to you, do ye even so to them...." > First thing first. Would you stone adulterers? -- ~Stumper Quote
Guest stumper Posted March 3, 2007 Posted March 3, 2007 Pastor Frank wrote: > "Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message > news:70qeu21934vf7sp50ejdu2g6eduqn4ljtb@4ax.com... >> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:44:09 +0800, in alt.atheism >> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in >> <45e7076a$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>: >>> "Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message >>> news:2ho9u25n0bfth0pee9taf3gkua6vn3tev2@4ax.com... >>>> On 26 Feb 2007 22:20:17 -0800, in alt.atheism >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in >>>>> In any event, if you think I am mocking Jesus, why don't you take your >>>>> complaint to him when he returns to judge the earth? >>>> Because there is no evidence that Jesus will ever return and there is a >>>> great deal of evidence that people are harmed by the teachings of those >>>> who claim to be the followers of Jesus. >>>> >>> There you go again making broad accusations without presenting a shred >>> of evidence. >> Are you trying to deny that there have been people who claim to be >> followers of Jesus but have caused serious harm in the world with their >> evil? >> > Are you simple minded, that you should believe Satan's minions who claim > to be followers of Christ, yet do the opposite from what Christ commanded, > as well as justify doing so. That's why Jesus said: By their actions ye > shall know them. Yet you believe their words instead of their actions? > You are right. Would you be kind enough to let us know whether you would stone all adulterers or not? -- ~Stumper Quote
Guest stumper Posted March 3, 2007 Posted March 3, 2007 Pastor Frank wrote: > "Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message > news:croeu25amqqusj8b7cv0qcff7tul8hho4e@4ax.com... >> Apparently you are a bot of very little memory. If you had any memory at >> all, you would know that you had already tried this lie on me and that I >> pointed out that I own a number of Bibles and have read it through. You >> would also remember that the Bible does not qualify as evidence in >> support of the claim that gods exist. It is no more evidence than any of >> the other religious and religiously-inspired books. Many people, some >> just for kicks, have written religious texts. None are supported by any >> evidence. >> > There you go again specifying that a God to exists, he must be evidenced > to your specifications and approval. There is no such requirement. It's a > free country and everyone can regard anything or anyone as their god, no > matter whether abstract or concrete. > Isn't it possible that God might not exist to him for all practical intents and purposes? -- ~Stumper Quote
Guest Gospel Bretts Posted March 3, 2007 Posted March 3, 2007 On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 12:50:19 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote: >"Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message >news:70qeu21934vf7sp50ejdu2g6eduqn4ljtb@4ax.com... >> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:44:09 +0800, in alt.atheism >> "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in >> <45e7076a$0$16281$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>: >>>"Free Lunch" <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message >>>news:2ho9u25n0bfth0pee9taf3gkua6vn3tev2@4ax.com... >>>> On 26 Feb 2007 22:20:17 -0800, in alt.atheism >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in >>>>> >>>>>In any event, if you think I am mocking Jesus, why don't you take your >>>>>complaint to him when he returns to judge the earth? >>>> >>>> Because there is no evidence that Jesus will ever return and there is a >>>> great deal of evidence that people are harmed by the teachings of those >>>> who claim to be the followers of Jesus. >>>> >>> There you go again making broad accusations without presenting a shred >>>of evidence. >> >> Are you trying to deny that there have been people who claim to be >> followers of Jesus but have caused serious harm in the world with their >> evil? >> > Are you simple minded, that you should believe Satan's minions who claim >to be followers of Christ, yet do the opposite from what Christ commanded, >as well as justify doing so. That's why Jesus said: By their actions ye >shall know them. Yet you believe their words instead of their actions? Don't you think that a true follower of Christ should respect truth then, Pastor Frank? Should a follower of Christ engage in constant self-deception and try to deceive others? Why are all of you christers such deliberately illogical liars? Why is there no christer who really does respect Truth? ___________________ Gospel Bretts a.a. Atheist #2262 Fundy Xian Atheist Quote
Guest H. Wm. Esque Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "Scott Richter" <scottrichter422@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away from > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and esteemed > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of atheism. > > > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke their > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad evangelicals? > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to the > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > great"? > > > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > > I see. Well, we Christians are supposed to return good for evil, so > > here is a verse from Isaiah to brighten your day. > > It appears that you confuse talk about evil with the evil itself, and > that you do not recognize yourself in that evil. > > > > Isaiah3:13 The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the > > people. > > And so you retreat to your warm fairy tales. > > Interesting choice of verse, by the way. After all, Christianity (as > most religions) employs judgement has a primary tool of control. As I've > said before, Christians all seem to LOVE to judge people; I guess you're > no exception... > > Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:05:25 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEsque@bellsouth.net> wrote: - Refer: <08uGh.2340$Dw2.1537@bignews4.bellsouth.net> > >"Scott Richter" <scottrichter422@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... >> rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: > > >No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility >is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a >claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the >responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. Most sane thinking adults would take it as rhetoric. I.e.: A "Put up or shut up" challenge. Those who demand "evidence" of the non-existence of impossible infantile fantasies are most likely not in the categories of sane, thinking, or adult. -- Quote
Guest rbwinn Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Mar 3, 11:06�am, scottrichter...@yahoo.com (Scott Richter) wrote: > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away from > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and esteemed > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of atheism. > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke their > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad evangelicals? > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to the > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > great"? > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > I see. Quote
Guest rbwinn Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Mar 4, 12:05�am, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > "Scott Richter" <scottrichter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > > > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > is Quote
Guest rbwinn Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Mar 4, 1:56�am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote: > On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:05:25 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque"<HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > Quote
Guest JessHC Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 rbwinn wrote: > On Mar 4, 12:05?am, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > "Scott Richter" <scottrichter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > > > > > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > > is ?proof? ?I would contend there is no way to prove such a > > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > > > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away > > from > > > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and > > esteemed > > > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of > > atheism. > > > > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke > > their > > > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad > > evangelicals? > > > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to > > the > > > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > > > great"? > > > > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > > > > I see. ?Well, we Christians are supposed to return good for evil, so > > > > here is a verse from Isaiah to brighten your day. > > > > > It appears that you confuse talk about evil with the evil itself, and > > > that you do not recognize yourself in that evil. > > > > > > Isaiah3:13 ?The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the > > > > people. > > > > > And so you retreat to your warm fairy tales. > > > > > Interesting choice of verse, by the way. After all, Christianity (as > > > most religions) employs judgement has a primary tool of control. As I've > > > said before, Christians all seem to LOVE to judge people; I guess you're > > > no exception...- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > Atheists reject the Bible No. We reject the unsupported supernatural claims made in the bible. > and say it proves nothing Because begging the question is a logical fallacy. > even though some will actually admit that the Bible exists. Please name one atheist who claims the bible doesn't exist. > One atheist told me he had > thirty Bibles, but what good is having a book if you do not read it? Did this person state they hadn't read it? Although it's a fine question to put to theists, now that you bring it up; I'm guessing better than 80% haven't read it cover to cover, judging by what nutcases like you say. An even better one would be "what sense does it make to worship a character in a book you apparently haven't read?" > I try to help atheists get over their ignorance by quoting verses from > the book of Isaiah. Considering that it seems more atheists are biblically well-read than theists, what "ignorance" are you trying to help them get over? Is Isaiah the only book you've read? Are the verses you quote relevant to the conversation? > Isaiah 3:19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, Have you read this one? Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Quote
Guest JessHC Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 H. Wm. Esque wrote: > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. No, it's more a statement about the absolute dearth of actual, legitimate, objective, verifiable evidence for any deities ever in the universe. If you have some, please feel free to present it; many of us atheists have politely asked for such evidence literally for years if not entire lifetimes, and so far have been perpetually sorely disappointed. Be aware, though, that the standards of evidence for such supernatural claims is pretty high; statements like "I don't understand something, therefore god must have done it" or "I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I pray" won't cut it. Quote
Guest JessHC Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 rbwinn wrote: > On Mar 3, 11:06?am, scottrichter...@yahoo.com (Scott Richter) wrote: > > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away from > > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and esteemed > > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of atheism. > > > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke their > > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad evangelicals? > > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to the > > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > > great"? > > > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > > > I see. ?Well, we Christians are supposed to return good for evil, so > > > here is a verse from Isaiah to brighten your day. > > > > It appears that you confuse talk about evil with the evil itself, and > > that you do not recognize yourself in that evil. > > > > > Isaiah3:13 ?The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the > > > people. > > > > And so you retreat to your warm fairy tales. > > > > Interesting choice of verse, by the way. After all, Christianity (as > > most religions) employs judgement has a primary tool of control. As I've > > said before, Christians all seem to LOVE to judge people; I guess you're > > no exception...- Hide quoted text - > > > Actually, I was just going through the book of Isaiah verse by verse. > The next one is Isaiah 3:14. > The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, > and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard: the > spoil of the poor is in your houses. > I discovered some time ago that you can have a conversation with > atheists just by answering each atheist in turn with a verse from > Isaiah. This results in a much better conversation than relying on > your own knowledge in trying to answer each accusation. Isaiah was a > much better judge than anyone living today. So rather than think about something and answer someone, you punt? Quote
Guest JessHC Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 rbwinn wrote: > On Mar 4, 1:56?am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote: > > On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:05:25 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque"<HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > > ? - Refer: <08uGh.2340$Dw2.1...@bignews4.bellsouth.net> > > > > > > > > >"Scott Richter" <scottrichter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > >news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > > >> rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > > > >No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > > >is ?proof? ?I would contend there is no way to prove such a > > >claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > > >responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > > Most sane thinking adults would take it as rhetoric. > > I.e.: A "Put up or shut up" challenge. > > > > Those who demand "evidence" of the non-existence of impossible > > infantile fantasies are most likely not in the categories of sane, > > thinking, or adult. > > > Well, I think atheists should get over their fantasy that the Bible is > going to disappear. Could you please cite the atheist that made that claim? > Isaiah 3:20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the > headbands, and the tablets, and the earings, That's nice; rather than babbling yourself, you quote babbling. Quote
Guest Randy Day Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 rbwinn wrote: [snip > Isaiah 3:20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the > headbands, and the tablets, and the earings, "...and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chu..." - Monty Python http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Hand_Grenade_of_Antioch Quote
Guest H. Wm. Esque Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:o62lu2lpmr5f8ecfstlertdao57rvkb32c@4ax.com... > On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:05:25 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque" > <HEsque@bellsouth.net> wrote: > - Refer: <08uGh.2340$Dw2.1537@bignews4.bellsouth.net> > > > >"Scott Richter" <scottrichter422@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > >> rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: > > > > > >No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > >is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a > >claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > >responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > Most sane thinking adults would take it as rhetoric. > I.e.: A "Put up or shut up" challenge. > > Those who demand "evidence" of the non-existence of impossible > infantile fantasies are most likely not in the categories of sane, > thinking, or adult. > This is a very ambiguous statement. Are you implying that those who demand "....." are sane? Or is is that you are defining God? > -- Quote
Guest H. Wm. Esque Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in message news:1173013529.010538.60630@64g2000cwx.googlegroups.com... On Mar 4, 12:05?am, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > "Scott Richter" <scottrichter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > > > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away > from > > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and > esteemed > > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of > atheism. > > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke > their > > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad > evangelicals? > > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to > the > > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > > great"? > > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > > I see. Well, we Christians are supposed to return good for evil, so > > > here is a verse from Isaiah to brighten your day. > > > It appears that you confuse talk about evil with the evil itself, and > > that you do not recognize yourself in that evil. > > > > Isaiah3:13 The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the > > > people. > > > And so you retreat to your warm fairy tales. > > > Interesting choice of verse, by the way. After all, Christianity (as > > most religions) employs judgement has a primary tool of control. As I've > > said before, Christians all seem to LOVE to judge people; I guess you're > > no exception...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Atheists reject the Bible and say it proves nothing even though some will actually admit that the Bible exists. > Really: certainly, the Bible is real this is the only certainity in a very uncertain world. What sane person would deny the existance of certainity? > One atheist told me he had thirty Bibles, but what good is having a book if you do not read it? I try to help atheists get over their ignorance by quoting verses from the book of Isaiah. > Good point! Bill Isaiah 3:19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, Robert B. Winn Quote
Guest H. Wm. Esque Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "JessHC" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote in message news:1173018520.978855.246000@64g2000cwx.googlegroups.com... > > rbwinn wrote: > > On Mar 4, 12:05?am, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > > "Scott Richter" <scottrichter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... > > > > > > > rbwinn <rbwi...@juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > > > is ?proof? ?I would contend there is no way to prove such a > > > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > > > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, you are an apostate Christian. ?That means you are more > > > > > > > > > dishonest than a person who was raised atheist. > > > > > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, my dear Winnie, the ex-Christian has turned away > > > from > > > > > > > > dishonesty and embraced truth. ?He is to be more admired and > > > esteemed > > > > > > > > for having grappled himself up out of the stifling quicksands of > > > > > > > > religion and walked in the verdant and enlightened fields of > > > atheism. > > > > > > > > > > Well, if you atheists are so happy, why can't you stay away from > > > > > > > trying to discredit religion? > > > > > > > > > Because our world is under assault by religious groups who invoke > > > their > > > > > > superstitions to control what others think and do. Did you miss 9/11? > > > > > > Have you not listened to Pat Robertson and other power mad > > > evangelicals? > > > > > > Have you not watched the creationists trying to take America back to > > > the > > > > > > Dark Ages? Have you not heard the suicide bombers screaming "God is > > > > > > great"? > > > > > > > > > It is increasingly clear that religion is a plague on civilization, so > > > > > > why would we "stay away" from such an important issue? > > > > > > > > I see. ?Well, we Christians are supposed to return good for evil, so > > > > > here is a verse from Isaiah to brighten your day. > > > > > > > It appears that you confuse talk about evil with the evil itself, and > > > > that you do not recognize yourself in that evil. > > > > > > > > Isaiah3:13 ?The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the > > > > > people. > > > > > > > And so you retreat to your warm fairy tales. > > > > > > > Interesting choice of verse, by the way. After all, Christianity (as > > > > most religions) employs judgement has a primary tool of control. As I've > > > > said before, Christians all seem to LOVE to judge people; I guess you're > > > > no exception...- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Atheists reject the Bible > > No. We reject the unsupported supernatural claims made in the bible. > > > and say it proves nothing > > Because begging the question is a logical fallacy. > > > even though some will actually admit that the Bible exists. > > Please name one atheist who claims the bible doesn't exist. > I would say he misspoke. > > > One atheist told me he had > > thirty Bibles, but what good is having a book if you do not read it? > > Did this person state they hadn't read it? Although it's a fine > question to put to theists, now that you bring it up; I'm guessing > better than 80% haven't read it cover to cover, judging by what > nutcases like you say. An even better one would be "what sense does > it make to worship a character in a book you apparently haven't read?" > > > I try to help atheists get over their ignorance by quoting verses from > > the book of Isaiah. > > Considering that it seems more atheists are biblically well-read than > theists, > I would question this statement. Sincere, devout Christians usually are well read. However, there are some who are noninal Christians who ususlly attend Church, others who are Christian for personal gain who flaunt their faith in order to gain trust, expecially where they hope for personal gain. I personally know an elderly couple who were deprived of their life's savings by a Bible quoting "care giver" who worked hard to gain their trust. Then she disappeared. She had no interest in the couple except for what she could steal. > <snip> > > Matthew 10:14 > And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye > depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. > Christians who do not heed this verse are in violation of the very faith they profess. There is no Biblical authorization to "shove ones religion down the throat of another person". An atheist who wants a defense against over-bearing proselytizers should be able to point to this verse as a defense. Quote
Guest H. Wm. Esque Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "JessHC" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote in message news:1173019052.691420.283990@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > H. Wm. Esque wrote: > > > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > > is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a > > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > No, it's more a statement about the absolute dearth of actual, > legitimate, objective, verifiable evidence for any deities ever in the > universe. > There is no proof. Absolute certainty is not available where the Deity is concerned. People of faith accept the Existence of God as a matter of faith, and not because of hard empirical evidence. If this is what is demanded by you, then you are demanding this of God because he has not provided it. > If you have some, please feel free to present it; many of > us atheists have politely asked for such evidence literally for years > if not entire lifetimes, and so far have been perpetually sorely > disappointed. > You want absolute certainty, a guarantee, but you have no certainty in anything: your job, your mate, your future or a long happy life. But you demand more from God. Why? I find this surprising. > Be aware, though, that the standards of evidence for > such supernatural claims is pretty high; statements like "I don't > understand something, therefore god must have done it" or "I get a > warm fuzzy feeling when I pray" won't cut it. > I can understand you want a idyllic existence where there is only perfect knowledge, proof of everything even direct empirical the existence of God, but it does not exist so you will not find it. Billy Quote
Guest Scott Richter Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: > I discovered some time ago that you can have a conversation with > atheists just by answering each atheist in turn with a verse from > Isaiah. This results in a much better conversation than relying on > your own knowledge in trying to answer each accusation. Presumably, few of those atheists continue the conversation for long, since by your own admission you aren't interested in discussion, but pontification. > Isaiah was a much better judge than anyone living today. If you want to judge people, you should at least have the character to do so directly, rather than hiding behind Biblical figures. But you miss the key point of your own sentence--Isaiah is NOT living today. You and I are. And I have no interest in talking to the dead because they are notoriously poor conversationalists. Goodbye. Quote
Guest jl Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Mar 4, 12:27 pm, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEs...@bellsouth.net> wrote: > "JessHC" <jes...@phantomemail.com> wrote in message > > news:1173019052.691420.283990@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > > H. Wm. Esque wrote: > > > > No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility > > > is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a > > > claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the > > > responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. > > > No, it's more a statement about the absolute dearth of actual, > > legitimate, objective, verifiable evidence for any deities ever in the > > universe. > > There is no proof. Absolute certainty is not available where the > Deity is concerned. How bout just enough evidence to tip the scales, then, Esquire, like maybe some manna from heaven, or a few pigs possessed by demons, a stinking corpse brought back to life, or a stick turned into a cobra. No seven-headed great whore necessary. Matter of fact you can just skip over the hallucination of the last booklet. > People of faith accept the Existence of God as a matter of faith, Or superstition, or hysterical longing not to die into oblivion. > and not because of hard empirical evidence. If this is what is > demanded by you, then you are demanding this of God because > he has not provided it. But he did provide it, in ancient days, and should provide it nowadays. Otherwise, we're going to think that in those days somebody was transcribing a host of lies. > > If you have some, please feel free to present it; many of> us atheists have politely asked for such evidence literally for years > > if not entire lifetimes, and so far have been perpetually sorely > > disappointed. > > You want absolute certainty, a guarantee, but you have no > certainty in anything: your job, your mate, your future or > a long happy life. But you demand more from God. Why? > I find this surprising. Absolute scientific certainty is not necessary. How about some witnesses from the other side. Or even some identifiable sign of the devil, against whom so many bibles have been issue. That would be helpful. > > Be aware, though, that the standards of evidence for> such supernatural claims is pretty high; statements like "I don't > > understand something, therefore god must have done it" or "I get a > > warm fuzzy feeling when I pray" won't cut it. > > I can understand you want a idyllic existence where there is > only perfect knowledge, proof of everything even direct > empirical the existence of God, but it does not exist > so you will not find it. > > Billy What a copout, Billy. You have swallered so many lies even you believe them and try, though pathetically, to propagate them. BTW, tonight this Cameron chap is going to present his evidence at 9 p. m. on the Discovery Channel. Those ancient crypts near Jerusalem, remember? Quote
Guest Semper Lib Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:8fucu2lopo8agcao7mdklhuiug7c5v4iji@4ax.com... > On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 04:39:18 GMT, "Semper Lib Quote
Guest Semper Lib Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in message news:1172751003.875222.105230@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... On Feb 28, 9:57?pm, "Semper Lib?r" <nopolicesta...@freedom4all.org> wrote: > "thomas p." <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message > > news:1172395449.982024.88750@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com... > On 25 Feb., 03:12, "Semper Libr" <nopolicesta...@freedom4all.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > "jl" <jls1...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > > >news:1172064169.603657.251320@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... > > On Feb 21, 1:34 am, "Semper Lib r" <nopolicesta...@freedom4all.org> > > wrote: > > > > "thomas p." <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message > > > >news:1171624464.851175.119410@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > On 16 Feb., 00:29, "Semper Libr" <nopolicesta...@freedom4all.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > "thomas p." <tonyofbe...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message > > > > >news:1171435152.882605.285700@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com... > > > > On 13 Feb., 23:16, "Semper Liber" <nopolicesta...@freedom4all.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > In any event, you didn't answer the question. > > > > >Yes he did. > > > > > Sorry, no, he didn't. Perhaps you didn't understand the question?- > > > >If the question was "Would you lay down your life for a myth?", it was > > > >silly. People who die for a belief (see the above) do not think it is > > > >a myth. ?No, I would not die for a myth, but that does not support > > > >your argument in the least. People die for myths all the time, but > > > >they believe them. > > > > No, the question was whether resurrection was evidence of god. He never > > > answered that, and it would be interesting to know what he would > consider > > > evidence - a house call perhaps? > > >That would be helpful, but a spectacular sight like all those 6-winged > > >seraphims and God all high and lifted up and seated on his throne by > > >an altar with red-hot coals would be better. (See Isaiah, ch. 6 for > > >details.) > > > That will be seen by everyone eventually, at the great white throne > > judgement (See Rev.20 -11 for details). In the meantime, what about a > > universe of billions of galaxies that produces life through the laws that > > governs it?- > >First the question of the resurrection, there is no evidence it > >happened. > > Eyewitnesses are considered evidence in every court. > > > The existence of the universe is evidence that the universe > >exists; the only laws that we know of concerning the universe are made > >by man and are descriptive. > > Total rubbish. If the universe wasn't governed by verifiable universal laws, > we wouldn't be discussing it. In fact the universe is governed by several > constant laws that if any were to be changed, the universe and life would > cease to be. > > One of the fundamental questions that has faced scientists is not just > whether there is any life out there, but why does life exist in the first > place? More to the point, why are the physics of the universe such that they > favour the creation of life? > > The idea behind the anthropic principle is that the basic constants that > govern the universe were set so that life would be possible. If the values > of these constants were just a fraction out, then it would not be possible > for life to exist. > > An easy way to demonstrate this is to pretend you are responsible for > creating a new universe which will be able to sustain life. The first thing > you have to do is to decide on the strength of the explosion of the Big Bang > that begins the universe. > > You might think that you could have a slightly less powerful Big Bang than > we did. If you did this, then the contents of the universe wouldn't be > thrown out as fast or far enough, and before long they would slow down and > stop expanding, and then start contracting into a Big Crunch, ending the > universe. The time in between Big Bang and Big Crunch would be too short for > life to exist. > > So you start off with a more powerful Big Bang than we had. The contents of > the universe fly out with incredible speed, and never slow down enough to > start contracting again. In fact, they keep on expanding forever, so much > that the matter in the universe doesn't have a chance to accrete and clump > together to form stars. > > This means that you're stuck with a Big Bang essentially identical to the > one we had. Since you don't get to play around with the Big Bang, you decide > to move onto gravity. Perhaps you think that life would be much more > comfortable with less gravity so it wouldn't be as tiring to walk or run, so > you tone down the gravity a little. > > Unfortunately, this means that when the hydrogen left over from the Big Bang > is lying around, when it began to clump up together to form stars, the > gravity isn't strong enough to pull in a large amount of material. As a > result, the only stars that form are red giants, which are very small and > comparatively cold. The atoms in the core of the star aren't under > sufficient pressure to undergo fusion and produce the heavier atoms that are > required for life. The stars never explode (undergo supernovae) and even if > there were any heavy atoms in their cores, they would never get outside the > star. > > Shrugging your shoulders, you put the gravity above normal - it might mean > that it's harder to get out of bed in the mornings, but it's for their own > good. Yet again, though, greater gravity is not conducive to life. True, > stars would form quicker since the strong gravity causes the hydrogen atoms > to clump together very fast. But this strong gravity would also result in > the stars literally burning out far too quickly as they collapse in under > their own weight. The stars wouldn't last long enough to warm the planets > that form around them. > > So far, you can't alter the power of the Big Bang, or the gravity in the > universe. What else is there to alter, then? > > Well, there's the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and > neutrons together in the nuclei of atoms - you could change the value of > that. But you'd better not change it too much - if you increase it by just > 13% of its value in our universe, you'd get atoms that were just made of two > protons and no neutrons forming. These would quickly decay into atoms made > of just two neutrons, leaving no hydrogen, no water and no hydrocarbons in > the universe. Which means no life. > > Starting to get the idea? >These equations prove that there was no Big Bang. w= velocity of light x=wt x'=wt' gamma = 1/sqrt (1-v^2/w^2) > w= x/t = x'/t' = (x-vt)gamma/(t-vx/w^2)gamma =(x-vt) / (t-vt/ >w) >There is no distance contraction. >Robert B. Winn This wasn't intended as a defence of the "Big Bang", however..... The issue here is intelligent design of the universe. The fact we can use math to understand the universe shows the law is consistent and orderly, so thanks for that. Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:53:24 GMT, "Semper Lib Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted March 4, 2007 Posted March 4, 2007 On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:56:59 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque" <HEsque@bellsouth.net> wrote: - Refer: <e%BGh.3715$Wc.1872@bignews3.bellsouth.net> > >"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message >news:o62lu2lpmr5f8ecfstlertdao57rvkb32c@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:05:25 -0500, "H. Wm. Esque" >> <HEsque@bellsouth.net> wrote: >> - Refer: <08uGh.2340$Dw2.1537@bignews4.bellsouth.net> >> > >> >"Scott Richter" <scottrichter422@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >news:1hue729.pr88setfk8njN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com... >> >> rbwinn <rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> >No Evidence of God?? Is this a claim? If so, whose responsibility >> >is proof? I would contend there is no way to prove such a >> >claim, therefore, the claimant would likely attempt to shift the >> >responsibility to those whom he considers his opponents. >> >> Most sane thinking adults would take it as rhetoric. >> I.e.: A "Put up or shut up" challenge. >> >> Those who demand "evidence" of the non-existence of impossible >> infantile fantasies are most likely not in the categories of sane, >> thinking, or adult. >> >This is a very ambiguous statement. No it wasn't. >Are you implying that those >who demand "....." are sane? Or is is that you are defining God? What? Who is being unclear now? I cannot make head nor tail of what you are asking. "defining God"?? What the Fuck? That is a warning to the kiddies out there in usenet land: don't touch the sacramental wine before noon. I shall rephrase it for the English comprehension challenged: Those who say "Prove that an impossible object does not exist", are bonkers. Is that clear enough for you? -- Quote
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