Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

[Guest weatherwax]

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" wrote

>

>

> You keep guessing that Messiah and Christ are too different

> words but this is unsuported, not by History nor a sound

> Exegesis not even

> by Theology

> or sociology.

> Messiah is the Hebraic transliteration for the Greek word Christ. It

> has been translated this way since the down of Christianity. Even

> Islam which seems to be defending the Law of Moses in

> opposition to Paul translates it as Christ which is Al-Messih in

> Arabic. Unless you acknowledge that you will failed

> to understand the History of Christianity in both its versions,

> the New and the Old Covenants.

 

That is so funny, I can't pass it up.

 

"Messiah" is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word "mashiyach"

which isusually translated into English as "anointed". It was commonly used

to designate a king, and sometimes a priest or prophet. "The Messiah" is a

Jewish expression referring to a future king.

 

In the Greek Septuagint, "mashiyach" was translated into the Greek

"christos", which also means "anointed". In the Greek New Testament, the

word "Christos" was given a new meaning by Paul when he used it to designate

"the son of God." In English it is spelled "Christ".

 

In the Koran, "Al-Messih" is not the son of God, therefore it cannot have

the Christian meaning of "Christ". Nor is "Al-Messih a future king,

therefore it is not the same as the Jewish "Messiah".

 

--Wax

[Guest Libertarius]

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 20, 1:23 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>An idiot who can read and grasp the meaning of the Epistle

>>>>>>>to Galatians is far better than you.

>>

>>>>>>===>You only BELIEVE you can "read and grasp" Galatians.

>>>>>>In fact you approach it with preconceived doctrinal prejudices

>>>>>>you acquired from your preacher(s), and apply blind faith

>>>>>>to accept whatever you are SUPPOSED to understand by the

>>>>>>ramblings of a crazy, vision-seeing, hallucinating, lying

>>>>>>phony "apostle".

>>

>>>>>Ok, now what about his opponent position, how does

>>>>>their position fit in your theory that Paul created Christ

>>>>>a fictional character?

>>>>>I am assuming that you know they wanted Paul to

>>>>>include circumcision and the Law of Moses in his teaching.

>>>>>How do you reconcile their position with yours

>>

>>>>===>You obviously did not read all my response.

>>>>See below.

>>

>>>>>>>Apparently you don't know what Paul was saying

>>>>>>>to the Galatians on one hand and what his Opponents

>>>>>>>were saying in the other hand. If you had any clue

>>>>>>>as what his opponents were saying you would not come

>>>>>>>up with that nonsense that Paul created a fictional

>>>>>>>Character.

>>

>>>>>>===>There was no such thing anywhere in the Jewish culture as a

>>>>>>dying/rising, self-sacrificing, incarnate savior god named

>>>>>>"Christos".

>>>>>>If you believe it was not an invention, prove it otherwise.

>>

>>>>>Now why the pharisees had not been saying that.

>>

>>>>===>How do you know they were no saying that?

>>

>>>>>All what they wanted was Paul to teach the costums

>>>>>of Moses along with the Christos that he invented

>>

>>>>===>Why not?

>>

>>>Why not?

>>>What are you talking about?

>>>Because Christos being Paul invention

>>>has no basis in the Scriptures, therefore it would be sacrilegeous

>>>to associate it with God Law.

>>>People of the BOOK do nothing without Scriptures

>>>why you miss that amaze me

>>

>>>>>Hmmmm.. I still can't get it.

>>>>>Again let me remind you your premises.

>>>>>Paul invented Chistos.

>>>>>There is nothing about Christos in the Jewish Scriptures

>>>>>Messiah and Christos are two differents world.

>>

>>>>===>By gosh, You've got it!

>>

>>>The trouble here is that,the Pharisees in

>>>the Epistle to the Galatians are preaching the

>>>Gospel of Circumcision and Gospel being associated

>>>with Christ,

>>

>>===>NONSENSE!

>>"Gospel" is just the English translation of

>>"EUANGELION", mening GOOD NEWS.

>

>

>

>

>>For the Jews, "good news" would have been

>>LIBERATION and THEOCRACY.

>

>

> Where did the Jews tell this?

> You make it up as you go.

 

===>Read Zechariah 14.

> You are a LIAR.

===>So says YOU, an ignorant nitwit.

Have you never heard of the "gospel of the kingdom of God"?

>

>

>>For Saul/Paul, "good news" was a dead and risen

>>savior god who would take him and his followers

>>"into the air".

>

>

> The point is that according to History and the Bible

> the Jews who believed were preaching the Gospel

> but in a different context, the context of the Law of

> Moses and the Old Covenant.

 

===>The were preaching A "gospel", i.e.

the gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD

ON EARTH, and NOT a PAGAN gospel of some

incarnate savior god dying for them and taking them

up into into the sky!

 

This nis what you are incapable of comprehending.

>

> Are they servants of Christ? So Am I

 

===>That has nothing to do with the Jews.

He is talking about another group of CHRISTOS worshiping

GENTILES!

> The pharisees who believe in Jesus

> as the Christ/Messiah of Israel were preaching

> the Gospel of resurrection of Mankind.

 

===>That is utterly idiotic.

There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

"Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

liberator king "Messiah",

and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

> Their doctrines were passed on to the next generation

> until the generation who put it in writin and named it the Qur'an

 

===>That is pure NONSENSE!

>

>

> Read my other post:

> THE CLASH OF COVENANTS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>> Pharisees are preaching Christ

>>

>>

>>>a Pauline fictional invention.

>>

>>===>NEVER!

>

>

>

> Are they servants of Christ? So Am I. 2 cor 8

>

> Now back your contention up with a text at least.

> It is sad you missed the contents of the Bible,

> yet you always want to debate about it.

> At least Know what you are talking about.

>

>

>

>>>What sense does this make If Christ was not

>>>spoken of in Moses Torah?

>>

>>===>It makes no sense at all.

>>But it is just your invention.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>>>>Questions again from me.

>>>>>Why did the pharisees bothered for somebody else invention?

>>

>>>>===>I already told you why.

>>>>Why do you keep asking the same question?

>>

>>>>>Would not Paul be free to use his invention the way he wanted.

>>

>>>>===>Of course not.

>>>>He claimed he was "grafting on" his followers.

>>

>>>>>But it looks like the party of Paul and the Party of the pharisees

>>>>>who advocated circumcision were reading the

>>>>>same Torah of Moses and reading about the same Messiah/Christ

>>

>>>>>>How do you reconcile your nonsense theory

>>

>>>>===>It is NOT a "theory", and if it seems "nonsense" to you,

>>>>it is because you are blinded by your doctrinal prejudices.

>>

>>>>>>>with the issues debated against his opponent in Galatians?

>>

>>>>>>>If Paul created Chrestos, a fictional character that

>>>>>>>he chose to preach to the Greeks or the Gentiles

>>>>>>>why did the pharisees who believed still followed

>>>>>>>him around so that he may include the Law of Moses

>>>>>>>in his teaching?

>>

>>>>>>===>Because he was their competitor,

>>>>>>converting potential allies of the

>>>>>>Jewish resistance to his own pro-Roman, anti-Jewish

>>>>>>new-fangled savior cult, claiming that his converts

>>>>>>would be the new heirs to the Abrahamic promises.

>>

>>>>>This was not my question. But you are bringing in something

>>>>>interesting as competitor.

>>>>>Paul preaching Chrestos was competitor to the pharisee.

>>>>>What was the Message of the pharisees then?

>>

>>>>===>First and foremost, their message was obedience

>>>>to the TORAH.

>>>>Secondly, their intention was to recruit the Jews in the

>>>>Diaspora, as well as Gedntile sympathizers known as

>>>>"God fearers", to the Jewish cause.

>>

>>>Obedience to the Torah through Circumcision along

>>>with Christ.

>>

>>===>NOTHING to do with "Christ".

>

>

> Christ according to the world best translators means Messiah

> in Hebrew, the equivalent of Al-Massih in Arabic.

> You should be ashamed of yourself for making unsuported

> speculations. Is this how Academia work? Hmmmmm...

>

>

>

>>Can't you get this through your thick skull?

>>How dense can you get?

>

>

>

> This is speculation. I don't dwell in individual

> speculations If you can't back it up with evidence

> from History or The Scriptures itself

>

>

>

>>

>>

>>>>>For them to be competitors, that would mean that

>>>>>the Pharisees were preaching the same Chrestos

>>>>>who was supposed to be Paul's invention.

>>

>>>>===>Again, you misinterpret "competition", because you are

>>>>incapable of thinking outside your doctrinal prejudices.

>

>

> Correct me then...

> Competitors are those selling the same

> product.

 

===>STUPID NONSENSE.

Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

Are they "selling the same product"?

Of course not.

 

And Paul made it clear that his

> adversaries are also selling Christ/Messiah.

> Are they Hebrews? So am I

> Are they Israelites? So am I

> Are they servant of Christ? So Am I

 

===>Don't be so stupid.

He is talking about some splinter group of his

"Christos" cult, that believed they should

be more like thgir Jewish ancestors,

But is NOT talking about the Pharisees.

>

> This is clear. Paul and His opponents are

> serving the same Christ of Deut 18:19

 

===>There's no "Christ" in Deuteronomy.

> but with a different FLAVOR:

> The flavor of the New Covenant and the flavor

> of the old Covenant.

> You see two groups of Jews in JERUSALEM

> we see three: The Paul's party,those

> who supported his doctrine of the New Covenant,

> The pharisees of Acts 15 who accepted Jesus

 

===>Where does it say anything about pharisees

"who accepted Jesus"?

 

BOVINE MANURE! -- L.

[Guest izzy]

"weatherwax" wrote:

> "Messiah" is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word "mashiyach"

> which isusually translated into English as "anointed". It was commonly used

> to designate a king, and sometimes a priest or prophet. "The Messiah" is a

> Jewish expression referring to a future king.

>>

The Red Wheel-Barrow

by William Carlos Williams

 

so much depends upon

a red wheel barrow

glazed with rain water

beside the white chickens.

<<

 

Deconstruction:

 

so much depends upon

ONE MAN

[the] SAVIOR-MESSIAH

[and] ON the MEMORY/REMEMBRANCE of HIS ONE/ONLY SON

 

Here's why: Using @ = aleph, KH = het, kh = khaf, 3 = aiyin

 

The Hebrew word for wheelbarrow is KHaDoFeN

< Aramaic KHaD = one + @oFeN = wheel.

The Hebrew word for red is @aDoM.

So, red wheelbarrow = KHaDoFeN @aDoM

Change that a little to KHaD BeN-@aDaM = one + man/human

 

Rain-water = Ma:-GeSHeM.

Glazed/glassed = ZaGaG/Z'khookhiS.

Change Ma:GeSHeM Z' khookhis

to MaGaSH MaSHiaKH = salver/SAVIOR + MeSSiaH

 

Beside = 3aL YaD = on + hand; honor/memorial/monument

white chickens = (tarnagol) HoDoo LaVaN

Modify this to KHaD Lo BeN = his one/only son

 

This transliteration phenomena is related to the genesis of idioms in

a target language. For example: Count sheep ! (to go to sleep) is

probably the translation of a Hebrew pun (transliteration) on a Latin

phrase.

Latin sopor sond = sleep soundly/deeply => Hebrew S'PoR tSo@N = count

(young) sheep. The English idiom has been borrowed back into Israeli

Hebrew as LiSPoR KeVeS = to count sheep.

 

To see more example like this, do a Google search on < idioms Hebrew

izzy cohen >

 

ciao,

Israel "izzy" Cohen

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/

[Guest jem]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:59:51 GMT, "weatherwax"

<weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>

>"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" wrote

>>

>>

>> You keep guessing that Messiah and Christ are too different

>> words but this is unsuported, not by History nor a sound

>> Exegesis not even

>> by Theology

>> or sociology.

>> Messiah is the Hebraic transliteration for the Greek word Christ. It

>> has been translated this way since the down of Christianity. Even

>> Islam which seems to be defending the Law of Moses in

>> opposition to Paul translates it as Christ which is Al-Messih in

>> Arabic. Unless you acknowledge that you will failed

>> to understand the History of Christianity in both its versions,

>> the New and the Old Covenants.

>

>That is so funny, I can't pass it up.

>

>"Messiah" is the English transliteration of the Hebrew word "mashiyach"

>which isusually translated into English as "anointed". It was commonly used

>to designate a king, and sometimes a priest or prophet. "The Messiah" is a

>Jewish expression referring to a future king.

>

>In the Greek Septuagint, "mashiyach" was translated into the Greek

>"christos", which also means "anointed". In the Greek New Testament, the

>word "Christos" was given a new meaning by Paul when he used it to designate

>"the son of God." In English it is spelled "Christ".

>

>In the Koran, "Al-Messih" is not the son of God, therefore it cannot have

>the Christian meaning of "Christ". Nor is "Al-Messih a future king,

>therefore it is not the same as the Jewish "Messiah".

>

>--Wax

>

Nice work.

 

another part of that post ticks me off,

"JESUS IS THE MESSIAH"

They can't just keep it to "my messiah" they have to insist it applies

to everyone, including those of us that think it is bullshit.

Push push push.

For me hayzoos is not a priest, prophet, a king, anointed, son of god,

god, or anything other than a problem.

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 9:50 am, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> On Feb 21, 12:51 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>

> In fact it comes from Greek literature, a translation

> of a Greek word.

> E.g. when the death of an enemy king is announced,

> it was considered a "GOSPEL" (EUANGELION).

 

 

What is the GREEK word for community?

I was told it is EKKLESIA which is translated as Church in English

and EGLISE in French.

Does this mean that the word EKKLESIA was never used in the Greeks

everyday life? No, it makes no difference it was used before

or after the Apostles. The truth was that the Apostles adapted

their message to the level of understanding of their audience

within the context of their CULTURE and language. This process is

known

as ACCULTURATION.

Your approach to History and literature and linguistic is dangeroulsy

flawed.

No wonder you dwell in PLATITUDES

 

>

> The EUANGELION for the Jews was LIBERATION and the

> establishment of the promised Theocracy (literally,

> "Kingdom of God").

>

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

> This nis what you are incapable of comprehending.

>

>

>

> > Are they servants of Christ? So Am I

>

> ===>That has nothing to do with the Jews.

> He is talking about another group of CHRISTOS worshiping

> GENTILES!

 

Oh God! You are messed up. Do you have reading comprehension

problem or what?

Did you ever learn to analyze a text and how to be consistent with

the author intent?

Are you just too ARROGANT to admit to your ignorance?

Here is the text again for your help.

2Are they Hebrews? So am I.

Are they Israelites? So am I.

Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

23Are they SERVANTS of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like

this.)

I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently,

been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.

2 cor 10

 

Ever since a gentile is an Hebrew? Are they Hebrews here suggest

that he is speaking of the circumcision party, the same group

he has been fighting in Galatia. They preached the old Covenant.

He warned Timothy about hteir motives

"They say,"the Law is good" of course it is good as long as it is

used in accorance with his purpose."

Before attacking someone YOU must know what he is saying AND

from that you can figure out what his opponents are saying.

You have no clue about either side, yet you want to show off

you knowledge.

The Jews are debating their Scriptures, Moses Torah,please

admit to you being at a loss.

I am having some serious doubts about your claim as the world

reknown historian. Reading some History books written by others

does no turn one into an Historian.

 

SIR YOU HAVE MANY PROBLEMS

 

 

 

>

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

..

> > The point is that according to History and the Bible

> > the Jews who believed were preaching the Gospel

> > but in a different context, the context of the Law of

> > Moses and the Old Covenant.

>

> ===>The were preaching A "gospel", i.e.

> the gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD

> ON EARTH, and NOT a PAGAN gospel of some

> incarnate savior god dying for them and taking them

> up into into the sky!

 

Paul also mentioned the kingdom of God in his epistle.

Now you must tell us how his opponents kingdom

of God was articulated and how they differed.

But before that let me remind you that the issue here

is whether or not Deut 18:14-19 was about the Messiah/Christ.

If Deut 18:15 is not about the Messiah/Christ, then what is

the content of Paul opponents doctrine about Jesus.

WHY THEY PREACHED HIM, AND THEY PREACHED

HIM AS WHAT?

>

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> the Gospel of resurrection of Mankind.

>

> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

> liberator king "Messiah",

> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

 

Why do you keep guessing?

Why don't you read Acts 15.

You truly have no sense of History.

You have no source to back up your FUCKING ASSERTIONs

You keep flying from one branch to another branch without

consistency like a lost and desperate bird.

 

HOW SAD FOR SOMEONE WHO PRIDES HIMSELF AS AN ACADEMIC

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > The pharisees who believe in Jesus

> > as the Christ/Messiah of Israel were preaching

> > the Gospel of resurrection of Mankind.

>

> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

> liberator king "Messiah",

> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

 

How about your famous EBIONITES whom you liked

to cite. Did you forgt them so quickly or are you saying

that they were no Hebrews? You have been citing

them for their opposition to Paul. What was their origin?

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

>

> >>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

> >>>On Feb 20, 1:23 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> >>>wrote:

>

> >>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

> >>>>>>>An idiot who can read and grasp the meaning of the Epistle

> >>>>>>>to Galatians is far better than you.

>

> >>>>>>===>You only BELIEVE you can "read and grasp" Galatians.

> >>>>>>In fact you approach it with preconceived doctrinal prejudices

> >>>>>>you acquired from your preacher(s), and apply blind faith

> >>>>>>to accept whatever you are SUPPOSED to understand by the

> >>>>>>ramblings of a crazy, vision-seeing, hallucinating, lying

> >>>>>>phony "apostle".

>

> >>>>>Ok, now what about his opponent position, how does

> >>>>>their position fit in your theory that Paul created Christ

> >>>>>a fictional character?

> >>>>>I am assuming that you know they wanted Paul to

> >>>>>include circumcision and the Law of Moses in his teaching.

> >>>>>How do you reconcile their position with yours

>

> >>>>===>You obviously did not read all my response.

> >>>>See below.

>

> >>>>>>>Apparently you don't know what Paul was saying

> >>>>>>>to the Galatians on one hand and what his Opponents

> >>>>>>>were saying in the other hand. If you had any clue

> >>>>>>>as what his opponents were saying you would not come

> >>>>>>>up with that nonsense that Paul created a fictional

> >>>>>>>Character.

>

> >>>>>>===>There was no such thing anywhere in the Jewish culture as a

> >>>>>>dying/rising, self-sacrificing, incarnate savior god named

> >>>>>>"Christos".

> >>>>>>If you believe it was not an invention, prove it otherwise.

>

> >>>>>Now why the pharisees had not been saying that.

>

> >>>>===>How do you know they were no saying that?

>

> >>>>>All what they wanted was Paul to teach the costums

> >>>>>of Moses along with the Christos that he invented

>

> >>>>===>Why not?

>

> >>>Why not?

> >>>What are you talking about?

> >>>Because Christos being Paul invention

> >>>has no basis in the Scriptures, therefore it would be sacrilegeous

> >>>to associate it with God Law.

> >>>People of the BOOK do nothing without Scriptures

> >>>why you miss that amaze me

>

> >>>>>Hmmmm.. I still can't get it.

> >>>>>Again let me remind you your premises.

> >>>>>Paul invented Chistos.

> >>>>>There is nothing about Christos in the Jewish Scriptures

> >>>>>Messiah and Christos are two differents world.

>

> >>>>===>By gosh, You've got it!

>

> >>>The trouble here is that,the Pharisees in

> >>>the Epistle to the Galatians are preaching the

> >>>Gospel of Circumcision and Gospel being associated

> >>>with Christ,

>

> >>===>NONSENSE!

> >>"Gospel" is just the English translation of

> >>"EUANGELION", mening GOOD NEWS.

>

> >>For the Jews, "good news" would have been

> >>LIBERATION and THEOCRACY.

>

> > Where did the Jews tell this?

> > You make it up as you go.

>

> ===>Read Zechariah 14.

>

> > You are a LIAR.

>

> ===>So says YOU, an ignorant nitwit.

> Have you never heard of the "gospel of the kingdom of God"?

>

>

>

> >>For Saul/Paul, "good news" was a dead and risen

> >>savior god who would take him and his followers

> >>"into the air".

>

> > The point is that according to History and the Bible

> > the Jews who believed were preaching the Gospel

> > but in a different context, the context of the Law of

> > Moses and the Old Covenant.

>

> ===>The were preaching A "gospel", i.e.

> the gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD

> ON EARTH, and NOT a PAGAN gospel of some

> incarnate savior god dying for them and taking them

> up into into the sky!

>

> This nis what you are incapable of comprehending.

>

>

>

> > Are they servants of Christ? So Am I

>

> ===>That has nothing to do with the Jews.

> He is talking about another group of CHRISTOS worshiping

> GENTILES!

>

> > The pharisees who believe in Jesus

> > as the Christ/Messiah of Israel were preaching

> > the Gospel of resurrection of Mankind.

>

> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

> liberator king "Messiah",

> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>

> > Their doctrines were passed on to the next generation

> > until the generation who put it in writin and named it the Qur'an

>

> ===>That is pure NONSENSE!

>

Even If you read the Qur'an you would not comprehend. Soo

I am not surprised by what yu say

[Guest Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

>

>

> ===>STUPID NONSENSE.

> Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

> Are they "selling the same product"?

> Of course not.

>

 

Of course they are BOTH selling SOFT DRINK. Pepsi is not selling wine

They are competitors

[Guest Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

>

> >>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

> >>>On Feb 20, 1:23 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> >>>wrote:

>

> > adversaries are also selling Christ/Messiah.

> > Are they Hebrews? So am I

> > Are they Israelites? So am I

> > Are they servant of Christ? So Am I

>

> ===>Don't be so stupid.

> He is talking about some splinter group of his

> "Christos" cult, that believed they should

> be more like thgir Jewish ancestors,

> But is NOT talking about the Pharisees.

 

 

Acts 15 tells us that the Pharisees who believed

were advocating the costums and Law/Torah of Moses

and were encouraging the Gentiles to circumcise.

This is the group of Parisees who were present at

the COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM. This is the group

Paul refered to as the PARTY OF CIRCUMCISION.

This is the same group who preached the Gospel

to the Galatians.

This is he same group who were saying the "Law is good for the

Gentiles"

It takes thinking to analyze a text.

I knew you did not know what was being debated

 

 

>

>

>

[Guest Jeckyl]

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

news:1173058974.229774.196380@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

>> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>> liberator king "Messiah",

>> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

 

There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as Christ/Messiah ,,

otherwise you would not be arguing with them. So your claim that no one

ever has seems to be plainly wrong.

 

BTW: Are you saying that the christos was supposedly a real person in bodily

form? or was 'incarnate' a typo?

[Guest Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com]

On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

> ===>Where does it say anything about pharisees

> "who accepted Jesus"?

 

 

Acts 15 gave you some CLUES. You chose to ignore them

The council of Jerusalem made some useful points

you chose to miss them all. YOU CAN'T READ

How sad

 

>

> BOVINE MANURE! -- L.

[Guest weatherwax]

"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:12umukld2i6gia4@corp.supernews.com...

> "codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

> news:1173058974.229774.196380@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>> liberator king "Messiah",

>>> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>

> There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as Christ/Messiah ,,

> otherwise you would not be arguing with them. So your claim that no one

> ever has seems to be plainly wrong.

 

Is a "Christ/Messiah" something like a Chimera?

 

Can you point out the biblical passage in which a "Christ/Messiah" is

mentioned?

> BTW: Are you saying that the christos was supposedly a real

> person in bodily form? or was 'incarnate' a typo?

 

What part of the word "incarnate" don't you understand?

 

--Wax

[Guest weatherwax]

<Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com> wrote

> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:

>>

>>

>> ===>STUPID NONSENSE.

>> Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

>> Are they "selling the same product"?

>> Of course not.

>>

>

> Of course they are BOTH selling SOFT DRINK. Pepsi is not

> selling wine They are competitors

 

You just flunked the Pepsi challenge.

 

--Wax

[Guest Jeckyl]

"weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:jpQGh.103145$5j1.2201@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message

> news:12umukld2i6gia4@corp.supernews.com...

>> "codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

>> news:1173058974.229774.196380@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>>> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>>> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>>> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>>> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>>> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>>> liberator king "Messiah",

>>>> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>>> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>>> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>> There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as Christ/Messiah ,,

>> otherwise you would not be arguing with them. So your claim that no one

>> ever has seems to be plainly wrong.

> Is a "Christ/Messiah" something like a Chimera?

 

I assume what was means was Jesus as both a messiah and christ

> Can you point out the biblical passage in which a "Christ/Messiah" is

> mentioned?

>> BTW: Are you saying that the christos was supposedly a real

>> person in bodily form? or was 'incarnate' a typo?

> What part of the word "incarnate" don't you understand?

 

I do understand it .. that's why I'm confused about what codebreaker is

saying .. why say the jews believe in a HUMAN (his emphasis) messiah and

contrast that with Paul's followers also believing in a human saviour. That

doesn't seem to correspond with what (I think) he was saying previously ..

that Paul was talking about a spiritual Christ (not a real person). That's

why i was wondering if the term 'incarnate' was a typo there, or was really

what he meant to be saying.

[Guest weatherwax]

"Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote

> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote

>> "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote

>>> "codebreaker@bigsecret.com" wrote

>>>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>>> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>>>> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>>>> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>>>> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>>>> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>>>> liberator king "Messiah",

>>>>> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>>>> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>>>> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>>> There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as

>>> Christ/Messiah ,, otherwise you would not be arguing with them. So your

>>> claim

>>> that no one ever has seems to be plainly wrong.

>>

>> Is a "Christ/Messiah" something like a Chimera?

>

> I assume what was means was Jesus as both a messiah and christ

 

Jesus could not have been both a god (Christ), and not a god (messiah) at

the same time.

>> Can you point out the biblical passage in which a "Christ/Messiah" is

>> mentioned?

>>

>>> BTW: Are you saying that the christos was supposedly a real

>>> person in bodily form? or was 'incarnate' a typo?

>>

>> What part of the word "incarnate" don't you understand?

>

> I do understand it .. that's why I'm confused about what codebreaker is

> saying .. why say the jews believe in a HUMAN

> (his emphasis) messiah and contrast that with Paul's followers

> also believing in a human saviour. That doesn't seem to correspond with

> what (I think) he was saying previously .. that Paul was talking about a

> spiritual Christ (not a real person). That's why i was wondering if the

> term 'incarnate' was a typo

> there, or was really what he meant to be saying.

 

You had quoted Libertarius, not codebreaker. That may be where the

confusion came in. All Libertarius is saying is that Paul believed Christ

to be both God and human, as opposed to a messiah which is just human.

 

--Wax

[Guest codebreaker@bigsecret.com]

> <Tohu.B...@hotmail.com> wrote

>

> > Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

> >> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> >>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:

>

> >> ===>STUPID NONSENSE.

> >> Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

> >> Are they "selling the same product"?

> >> Of course not.

>

> > Of course they are BOTH selling SOFT DRINK. Pepsi is not

> > selling wine They are competitors

>

> You just flunked the Pepsi challenge.

 

You think so because you view Judaism as a missionary religion.

It is not. Judaism is a national religion, a religion of the nation of

the Children of Israel. It does not seek converts therefore no

competitor.

Proselyts turn to Judaism out of love for God and in rejection

of Idols worship. They had to go through a ritual of circumcision

and reject their own history and culture for the jewish history.

And they were still treated as inferiors and not worthy

of entering the Temple.

The point here is that the people Paul might be competing with

in the Gentile world

are not the Jews of Judaism but the Jews believers in Jesus as

the Messiah/Christ of Israel, christians yet advocating the Law

of Moses for the Gentiles as well as the Jews

This is backed up by Acts 15. Let us read it together.

The Council at Jerusalem

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and

were teaching the brothers:

"Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom

taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."

2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and

debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed,

along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem

to see the apostles and elders about this question.

4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed

by the church and the apostles and elders,

to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the

Pharisees

stood up and said,

"The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of

Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

 

This is the same group of pharisees Paul has been fighting

in most of his epistles. The party of Circumcision.

This is the same group preaching a Gospel of circumcision

to the Galatians.

This is the same group he was talking about when he asked

rhetorically:

Are they Hebrews? So am I

Are they descendant of Abraham? So am I

Are they sevants of Christ? So am I

This is the same group of people he warned Timothy

to shun away.

"They say, the Law is good. Yes it is good as long as

it is used in accoradnce with its purpose..." Paul

 

-Those pharisees must not be confused with the

pharisees of Judaism who were still rejecting

Jesus as the Christ/Messiah.

It is then clear that at Jerusalem at this time

THERE were three groups arguing about what

the Torah of Moses says:

Paul and his followers. His Christ was still

the Christ that Moses foretold but the death

and resurrection of the Messiah made a new Covenant possible

therefore we are nolonger serving under the old One.

 

-The Pharisees or the party of circumcision:

They viewed Jesus as the fulfillement of the

Prophecy in the Torah of Moses, Deut 18:15

preach the resurrection of the dead in Christ but

were still in favor for the Law of Moses

not only for the Jews but also for the Gentiles.

They follow a different Christiology.

Their Christ's nature is what they believed Moses

said the Messiah was: A Prophet like Moses himself

My conviction is that the Qur'an and Islam summarize

their doctrines.

Unless you see this middle way group Christians

you will never be able to fully understand the Genesis

of Christianity.

They were Christians as they parted way with the Jew of Judaism

and become followers of Christ/Messiah which

the word Christian means, but at the same time share the

costums of Moses and the doctrines of Circumcision with the

Jews of Judaism, circumcision and customs that Paul rejected

altogether

 

Now come the Jews of Judaism:

They thought that Jesus did not fulfil

Deuteronomy 18:15 because he did not

resemble Moses. Unlike Moses he died

on the cross and worked most time

on the sabbath day which Moses forbid.

Therefore he could not be the Messiah/Christ

foretold by the Law of Moses.

A Crucified Messiah? how is that possible?

this seems to be their motto

 

So as you can see all those 3 groups agree on one thing:

the Text of the Torah Deut 18:14-19

foretold the Messiah/Christ.

Whether Jesus fitted the description or not

was the bone of their contention.

But this also raises one question. If Paul

preached the same Messiah/Christ fortold in Deuterononmy

why on earth did he refer to him as the Son of God

a concept found nowhere in the Torah of Moses?

We will deal with this later... But just remember that Paul

preached to the Gentiles and wrote that he was nolonger

under Moses Law as the Law was a school master designed

to take us to the Messiah/Christ, since Christ has come

he was nolonger under the tutelage of that schoolmaster.

The implication? the concept of Son Of God was not blasphemous

and was as valid for the Gentiles as Messiah found in the Law/Torah.

 

OUR SCRIPTURES AND OUR HISTORY ARE TOO WONDERFUL

TO BE LEFT IN THE HANDS OF THE SECULARS ASSHOLES

 

Plonk Again

[Guest Jeckyl]

"weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:zlYGh.105261$5j1.93851@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote

>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote

>>> "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote

>>>> "codebreaker@bigsecret.com" wrote

>>>>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>>>> ===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>>>>> There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>>>>> "Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>>>>> In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>>>>> The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>>>>> liberator king "Messiah",

>>>>>> and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>>>>> of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>>>>> named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>>>> There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as

>>>> Christ/Messiah ,, otherwise you would not be arguing with them. So

>>>> your claim

>>>> that no one ever has seems to be plainly wrong.

>>> Is a "Christ/Messiah" something like a Chimera?

>> I assume what was means was Jesus as both a messiah and christ

> Jesus could not have been both a god (Christ), and not a god (messiah) at

> the same time.

 

Why not ... he is supposedly both 100% man and 100% God.

> You had quoted Libertarius, not codebreaker.

 

Sorry .. must have miscounted the >>>>>

[Guest Libertarius]

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

>

>>>The pharisees who believe in Jesus

>>>as the Christ/Messiah of Israel were preaching

>>>the Gospel of resurrection of Mankind.

>>

>>===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>"Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>liberator king "Messiah",

>>and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>

>

> How about your famous EBIONITES whom you liked

> to cite. Did you forgt them so quickly or are you saying

> that they were no Hebrews? You have been citing

> them for their opposition to Paul. What was their origin?

 

===>They were JEWS, they believed in a "Messiah",

and NOT in the LIES of Saul/Paul and his Pagan savior

god "CHRISTOS" ("Christ" for you), and certainly NOT in YOUR

concoction of "Christ/Messiah";

and it is ridiculous to claim they were "Phariseess".

[Guest Libertarius]

Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>

>>===>STUPID NONSENSE.

>>Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

>>Are they "selling the same product"?

>>Of course not.

>>

>

>

> Of course they are BOTH selling SOFT DRINK. Pepsi is not selling wine

> They are competitors

>

===>Sure, and Judaism and the Christos Cult were both RELIGION.

But they offer different "products", just as Pepsi and Coke are

NOT THE SAME PRODUCT, you nitwit! -- L.

[Guest Libertarius]

Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 21, 12:59 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Feb 20, 1:23 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>>>wrote:

>>

>

>>>adversaries are also selling Christ/Messiah.

>>>Are they Hebrews? So am I

>>>Are they Israelites? So am I

>>>Are they servant of Christ? So Am I

>>

>>===>Don't be so stupid.

>>He is talking about some splinter group of his

>>"Christos" cult, that believed they should

>>be more like thgir Jewish ancestors,

>>But is NOT talking about the Pharisees.

>

>

>

> Acts 15 tells us that the Pharisees who believed

> were advocating the costums and Law/Torah of Moses

> and were encouraging the Gentiles to circumcise.

 

===>Correct.

> This is the group of Parisees who were present at

> the COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM.

 

===>FALSE!

It is YOUR invention.

Acts says no such thing.

 

This is the group

> Paul refered to as the PARTY OF CIRCUMCISION.

 

===>Sure. But those are not "pharisees".

They are referred to as NAZOREANS or

THE WAY or THE POOR.

A completely different sect of Jews.

> This is the same group who preached the Gospel

> to the Galatians.

 

===>?SO, what? NOT PHARISEES.

> This is he same group who were saying the "Law is good for the

> Gentiles"

 

===>So, what? NOT PHARISEES.

> It takes thinking to analyze a text.

 

===>And you are incapable of and not permitted to do that.

 

THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH -- L.

[Guest Libertarius]

Jeckyl wrote:

> "codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

> news:1173058974.229774.196380@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>

>>On Mar 3, 6:16 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>

>>>===>That is utterly idiotic.

>>>There were NEVER any Pharisees who believed in

>>>"Jesus as the Christ/Messiah"

>>>In fact NO ONE has ever believed in any "Christ/Messiah".

>>>The Jews believed in the coming of a HUMAN

>>>liberator king "Messiah",

>>>and the Pagans (and some renegade Jews)

>>>of Saul/Paul believed in an incarnate savior god

>>>named "CHRISTOS" (Christ for you in English).

>

>

> There are people here who claim to believe in Jesus as Christ/Messiah ,,

 

===>I know of NO ONE, other than stupid YOU

who ever talks about a "Christ/Messiah". -- L.

[Guest Libertarius]

weatherwax wrote:

> <Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com> wrote

>

>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>wrote:

>>

>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>>

>>>> Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>===>STUPID NONSENSE.

>>>Coke and Pepsi are COMPETITORS.

>>>Are they "selling the same product"?

>>>Of course not.

>>>

>>

>>Of course they are BOTH selling SOFT DRINK. Pepsi is not

>>selling wine They are competitors

>

>

> You just flunked the Pepsi challenge.

>

> --Wax

 

===>Thanks, Wax,

I needed that. -- L.