Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> > Let me tell again that you need to read the history of the Old

> > Testament and how its canon was chosen.

>

> Yes .. of course .. I have read on this. Thanks.

>

> > Christians had no control on this.

>

> Yes they did . .that is why different christian bibles have a different sets

> of old testament books, and different sets to the jewish hewbrew bible

> texts. The old testament(s) in the bibles are not exactly the same as the

> jewish scripture. There is a lot in common, but its not the same.

Son of bitch, you are not istening. Two groups of

Jewish scholars chose two different set of canon for the New

Testament. Catholic Church aligned with one of the group by adopting

the Scriptures it chose, Martin Luther later decided to adopt the

Scriptures chosen by the second group.

What part of this do you keep missing

>

> > If they had they would have included books quoted by Paul.

>

> Indeed .. the bible really needs someone to do a much better job of checking

> it for self-consistency.

>

> > But as I said earlier it was for the Jew to decide the Canon of their

> > Scriptures

>

> Yes it is.

>

> But the bibles old testament is not just the Jewish scriptures. As you

> admit yourself, martin Luther decided to exlude some .. there is you proof

> that it's content has been changed by christians (assuming you accept martin

> luther as a christian)

Martin Luther did not change nothing. He adopted a canon already

chosen

and in use by a group of a jewish Scholar. You should remember that

the Jews

had two different canons in use. Catholic vote for one Canon, and

Martin Luther

decided to vote for the next Canon. Yet both canons are jewish work

You vote Demon-Craps, and I vote Republican...

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 9:04 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> You are right. You shouldn't talk about things you are not sure of. You

> must be thinking of the Babylonian Talmud, which is a commentary on the

> Tanakh, or Old Testament.

Now If you don't know how the Old Testament Canonization process took

place

the whole debate is meaningless. Talmud is not Scriptures it is a

commentary

of Scriptures by Rabbis. Here we are talking about Canonization

of the Old Testament. Why don't you do some research?

instead talking "de coq

February 14, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" wrote

> <A0054...@airmail.net> wrote:

>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>>> "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote

>>

>>>>> At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the

>>>>> Acts of the Apostles appealed to Moses Deut 18:15

>>>>> to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah. At

>>>>> least I know that Paul made the same point during

>>>>> the jewish council. At least I know that the author

>>>>> of the Qur'an made the same claim. At least I know

>>>>> from the Jewish Oracle that the Messiah had to be

>>>>> born into the world. At least I know from the

>>>>> Testimonies of the Apostles that Jesus fits the

>>>>> description of whom the previous talked

>>>>> about. Act of the Apostles. So are you telling me

>>>>> that you read the whole "New Testament" without

>>>>> coming across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may

>>>>> have reading comprehension problem. So do all

>>>>> evol-atheist-secular jerks.

>>

>> >> Deuteronomy 18:15

>>>> The LORD your God will raise up for you a

>>>> prophet like me from among you - from your

>>>> fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.

>>

>>>> No reference to a messiah, a son of God, or to Jesus

>>>> Christ in this passage. Moses is merely telling the

>>>> people that there will be some one else to lead

>>>> them after he is gone.

>>

>>>> It shows how dishonest the author of the New

>>>> Testament can be.

>>

>>>And how dishonest the author of the Qur'an too because

>>> it is shown that he developped in his book this Mosaic

>>> pronouncement at lengh.

>>> FUCK YOU AND PLONK AGAIN

>>

>> You should get some help with that hostiliity.

>

> Whatever, jerk.

> A bunch of atheistic jerks sit on their MONKEY asses and

> try to lectur us on things they are clueless about. HOW

> DARE!

> If you don't know Moses foretold Christ/Messiah how good

> is that reading of the Bible?

> If you don't know the point Peter made in front of the

> Children of Isreal, why don't you just leave the whole

> issue alone.

Don't blame Peter for misquoting Deuteronomy 18:15. He probably didn't say

it at all. It is the author, Luke, who claims that Peter said it, and Luke

even contradicts himself.

> If you can't make sense of Stephen speech before the

> Sanhedrin, why do you keep bragging about how smart

> you are?

Again, Stephen's speech is recorded in Acts, which is supposed to have been

written by Luke. But consider this:

Acts 7:15-16

So Jacob went down to Egypt and died there, along

with our ancestors, and their bones were later moved

to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham

had bought for a certain sum of money from the sons

of Hamor in Shechem.

However,

Genesis 49:29-30

Then he (Jacob) instructed them, "I am about to go

to my people. Bury me with my fathers in the cave

in the field of Ephron the Hittite. It is the cave in the

field of Machpelah, near Mamre in the land of Canaan,

which Abraham bought for a burial plot from Ephron

the Hittite.

The author of Acts does not know where Jacob was buried.

> If you don't know the point being made in the Qur'an in

> connection to Christ + Moses Law and you are unable to

> track it back to the council of Jerusalem, why don't you

> just shut up?

> Down with you all

The Qur'an is no better than the Bible.

>> Why are you so touchy when somebody criticizes your

>> mythical hero or his fiction writers or his frothing

>> supporters?

>>

>> Maybe you should try a different author, it might calm you.

>> Try some Daniel Dennet, he's pretty gentle.

--Wax

February 14, 2007

On 13 Feb 2007 18:46:59 -0800, in alt.atheism

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in

<1171421219.319349.197250@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:

>On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>> > Let me tell again that you need to read the history of the Old

>> > Testament and how its canon was chosen.

>>

>> Yes .. of course .. I have read on this. Thanks.

>>

>> > Christians had no control on this.

>>

>> Yes they did . .that is why different christian bibles have a different sets

>> of old testament books, and different sets to the jewish hewbrew bible

>> texts. The old testament(s) in the bibles are not exactly the same as the

>> jewish scripture. There is a lot in common, but its not the same.

>

> Son of bitch, you are not istening. Two groups of

> Jewish scholars chose two different set of canon for the New

>Testament. Catholic Church aligned with one of the group by adopting

>the Scriptures it chose, Martin Luther later decided to adopt the

>Scriptures chosen by the second group.

>What part of this do you keep missing

Why you think you know what you are talking about.

There is no difference between Luther and the RCC on the New Testament.

>> > If they had they would have included books quoted by Paul.

>>

>> Indeed .. the bible really needs someone to do a much better job of checking

>> it for self-consistency.

>>

>> > But as I said earlier it was for the Jew to decide the Canon of their

>> > Scriptures

>>

>> Yes it is.

>>

>> But the bibles old testament is not just the Jewish scriptures. As you

>> admit yourself, martin Luther decided to exlude some .. there is you proof

>> that it's content has been changed by christians (assuming you accept martin

>> luther as a christian)

>

> Martin Luther did not change nothing. He adopted a canon already chosen

> and in use by a group of a jewish Scholar. You should remember that the Jews

> had two different canons in use. Catholic vote for one Canon, and Martin Luther

> decided to vote for the next Canon. Yet both canons are jewish work

Remember that the only important books in the Hebrew Scriptures are the

Books of Moses. The other books, are notably less important, whether

they are the ones that Protestants call the Old Testament or the ones

called the Apocrypha.

> You vote Demon-Craps, and I vote Republican...

Is it possible to be a Christian and still vote for Republicans? Don't

they betray all of Jesus's teachings?

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 9:46 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>

> > > Let me tell again that you need to read the history of the Old

> > > Testament and how its canon was chosen.

>

> > Yes .. of course .. I have read on this. Thanks.

>

> > > Christians had no control on this.

>

> > Yes they did . .that is why different christian bibles have a different sets

> > of old testament books, and different sets to the jewish hewbrew bible

> > texts. The old testament(s) in the bibles are not exactly the same as the

> > jewish scripture. There is a lot in common, but its not the same.

Correction:

Son of bitch, you are not istening. Two groups of

Jewish scholars chose two different set of canon for the OLD

TESTAMENT. Catholic Church aligned with one of the group by adopting

the Scriptures it chose, Martin Luther later decided to adopt the

Scriptures chosen by the second group.

What part of this do you keep missing

>

> > > If they had they would have included books quoted by Paul.

>

> > Indeed .. the bible really needs someone to do a much better job of checking

> > it for self-consistency.

>

> > > But as I said earlier it was for the Jew to decide the Canon of their

> > > Scriptures

>

> > Yes it is.

>

> > But the bibles old testament is not just the Jewish scriptures. As you

> > admit yourself, martin Luther decided to exlude some .. there is you proof

> > that it's content has been changed by christians (assuming you accept martin

> > luther as a christian)

>

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 10:40 pm, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2007 18:46:59 -0800, in alt.atheism

> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in

> <1171421219.319349.197...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:

>

> >On Feb 13, 9:28 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> >> > Let me tell again that you need to read the history of the Old

> >> > Testament and how its canon was chosen.

>

> >> Yes .. of course .. I have read on this. Thanks.

>

> >> > Christians had no control on this.

>

> >> Yes they did . .that is why different christian bibles have a different sets

> >> of old testament books, and different sets to the jewish hewbrew bible

> >> texts. The old testament(s) in the bibles are not exactly the same as the

> >> jewish scripture. There is a lot in common, but its not the same.

>

> > Son of bitch, you are not istening. Two groups of

> > Jewish scholars chose two different set of canon for the New

> >Testament. Catholic Church aligned with one of the group by adopting

> >the Scriptures it chose, Martin Luther later decided to adopt the

> >Scriptures chosen by the second group.

> >What part of this do you keep missing

>

> Why you think you know what you are talking about.

>

> There is no difference between Luther and the RCC on the New Testament.

You should read Old Testament instead of New Testament. I just made

the correction

>

> >> > If they had they would have included books quoted by Paul.

>

> >> Indeed .. the bible really needs someone to do a much better job of checking

> >> it for self-consistency.

>

> >> > But as I said earlier it was for the Jew to decide the Canon of their

> >> > Scriptures

>

> >> Yes it is.

>

> >> But the bibles old testament is not just the Jewish scriptures. As you

> >> admit yourself, martin Luther decided to exlude some .. there is you proof

> >> that it's content has been changed by christians (assuming you accept martin

> >> luther as a christian)

>

> > Martin Luther did not change nothing. He adopted a canon already chosen

> > and in use by a group of a jewish Scholar. You should remember that the Jews

> > had two different canons in use. Catholic vote for one Canon, and Martin Luther

> > decided to vote for the next Canon. Yet both canons are jewish work

>

> Remember that the only important books in the Hebrew Scriptures are the

> Books of Moses. The other books, are notably less important, whether

> they are the ones that Protestants call the Old Testament or the ones

> called the Apocrypha.

>

> > You vote Demon-Craps, and I vote Republican...

>

> Is it possible to be a Christian and still vote for Republicans? Don't

> they betray all of Jesus's teachings?- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 10:24 pm, "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" wrote

>

> > <A0054...@airmail.net> wrote:

> >> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> >>> "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> >>>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote

>

> >>>>> At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the

> >>>>> Acts of the Apostles appealed to Moses Deut 18:15

> >>>>> to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah. At

> >>>>> least I know that Paul made the same point during

> >>>>> the jewish council. At least I know that the author

> >>>>> of the Qur'an made the same claim. At least I know

> >>>>> from the Jewish Oracle that the Messiah had to be

> >>>>> born into the world. At least I know from the

> >>>>> Testimonies of the Apostles that Jesus fits the

> >>>>> description of whom the previous talked

> >>>>> about. Act of the Apostles. So are you telling me

> >>>>> that you read the whole "New Testament" without

> >>>>> coming across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may

> >>>>> have reading comprehension problem. So do all

> >>>>> evol-atheist-secular jerks.

>

> >> >> Deuteronomy 18:15

> >>>> The LORD your God will raise up for you a

> >>>> prophet like me from among you - from your

> >>>> fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.

>

> >>>> No reference to a messiah, a son of God, or to Jesus

> >>>> Christ in this passage. Moses is merely telling the

> >>>> people that there will be some one else to lead

> >>>> them after he is gone.

>

> >>>> It shows how dishonest the author of the New

> >>>> Testament can be.

>

> >>>And how dishonest the author of the Qur'an too because

> >>> it is shown that he developped in his book this Mosaic

> >>> pronouncement at lengh.

> >>> FUCK YOU AND PLONK AGAIN

>

> >> You should get some help with that hostiliity.

>

> > Whatever, jerk.

> > A bunch of atheistic jerks sit on their MONKEY asses and

> > try to lectur us on things they are clueless about. HOW

> > DARE!

> > If you don't know Moses foretold Christ/Messiah how good

> > is that reading of the Bible?

> > If you don't know the point Peter made in front of the

> > Children of Isreal, why don't you just leave the whole

> > issue alone.

>

> Don't blame Peter for misquoting Deuteronomy 18:15. He probably didn't say

> it at all. It is the author, Luke, who claims that Peter said it, and Luke

> even contradicts himself.

>

> > If you can't make sense of Stephen speech before the

> > Sanhedrin, why do you keep bragging about how smart

> > you are?

>

> Again, Stephen's speech is recorded in Acts, which is supposed to have been

> written by Luke. But consider this:

Paul claimed it in Roman and GALATIANS

>

> Acts 7:15-16

> So Jacob went down to Egypt and died there, along

> with our ancestors, and their bones were later moved

> to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham

> had bought for a certain sum of money from the sons

> of Hamor in Shechem.

>

> However,

>

> Genesis 49:29-30

> Then he (Jacob) instructed them, "I am about to go

> to my people. Bury me with my fathers in the cave

> in the field of Ephron the Hittite. It is the cave in the

> field of Machpelah, near Mamre in the land of Canaan,

> which Abraham bought for a burial plot from Ephron

> the Hittite.

>

> The author of Acts does not know where Jacob was buried.

But Paul knew exactly what Moses said. His whole exegesis is based

On Deuteronomy 18:15. Read Galates and Romans

And the author of the Qur'an who rebutted Paul over Moses' Law

based his whole

exegesis on what Moses told the Children of Israel.

Usually when the rebutter and the rebutted agree on one thing

this is called the common ground. The common ground between those

two enemies, Paul and his reversal, the Qur'an, is Moses' promise

to the Children of Israel in the Desert of Sinai.

It is well balanced, it is you who are mising something. We are not

It is you who can't see this equilibrium because your brain has been

damaged

by EVOLUTION and natural selection.

Once Deuteronomy 18:15 is missing in your reading of the New

Testament

the whole thing become messy and off-base to the point of looking

like

a fairy tale or a myth, but once Deuteronomy 18:15 is introduced

history starts taking shape. It is a wonder. Our book is a wonder, a

MIRACLE.

Now be gone son of a bitch and plonk again. Let me sit here in the

threshold

of the two worlds, lost in the eloquence SILENCE

>

> > If you don't know the point being made in the Qur'an in

> > connection to Christ + Moses Law and you are unable to

> > track it back to the council of Jerusalem, why don't you

> > just shut up?

> > Down with you all

>

> The Qur'an is no better than the Bible.

>

> >> Why are you so touchy when somebody criticizes your

> >> mythical hero or his fiction writers or his frothing

> >> supporters?

>

> >> Maybe you should try a different author, it might calm you.

> >> Try some Daniel Dennet, he's pretty gentle.

>

> --Wax- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

February 14, 2007

On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

--

Try showing that site to an actual historian.

See how hard you get laughed at.

February 14, 2007

>Reply to article by: "Codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com>

>Date written: 12 Feb 2007 11:55:15 -0800

>MsgID:<1171310111.284595.50290@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

>> I would readily admit that I don't know what it is at stake in the

>> Bible or in the whole affair regarding Jesus.

>> I would also state that you don't know either.

>At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the Acts of the Apostles appealed

>to Moses Deut 18:15 to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah.

>At least I know that Paul made the same point during the jewish council.

>At least I know that the author of the Qur'an made the same claim.

>At least I know from the Jewish Oracle that the Messiah had to be born into the world.

>At least I know from the Testimonies of the Apostles that Jesus fits the description

>of whom the previous talked about. Act of the Apostles

>So are you telling me that you read the whole "New Testament" without coming

>across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may have reading comprehension problem.

>So do all evol-atheist-secular jerks.

In the OT, God prophecized to Jeremiah that no one would be a descendant of Jeconiah (Coniah), yet

Jesus was, therefore that disqualifies Jesus from being the Messiah.

Apparently the same people who don't read their Bible are the same ones who believe in it.

The Sage

=============================================================

http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm

"All those painted screens erected by man to shut out reality

-- history, religion, duty, social position --

all were illusions, mere opium fantasies"

John Fowles, The French Lieutenant's Woman

=============================================================

February 14, 2007

On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkelley@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>

>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

> --

>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>See how hard you get laughed at.

Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

Jesus.

February 14, 2007

On Feb 14, 12:21 am, The_Sage <The_S...@everywhere.com> wrote:

> >Reply to article by: "Codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com>

> >Date written: 12 Feb 2007 11:55:15 -0800

> >MsgID:<1171310111.284595.50...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>

> >> I would readily admit that I don't know what it is at stake in the

> >> Bible or in the whole affair regarding Jesus.

> >> I would also state that you don't know either.

> >At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the Acts of the Apostles appealed

> >to Moses Deut 18:15 to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah.

> >At least I know that Paul made the same point during the jewish council.

> >At least I know that the author of the Qur'an made the same claim.

> >At least I know from the Jewish Oracle that the Messiah had to be born into the world.

> >At least I know from the Testimonies of the Apostles that Jesus fits the description

> >of whom the previous talked about. Act of the Apostles

> >So are you telling me that you read the whole "New Testament" without coming

> >across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may have reading comprehension problem.

> >So do all evol-atheist-secular jerks.

>

> In the OT, God prophecized to Jeremiah that no one would be a descendant of Jeconiah (Coniah), yet

> Jesus was, therefore that disqualifies Jesus from being the Messiah.

>

> Apparently the same people who don't read their Bible are the same ones who believe in it.

>

> The Sage

>

Now I see why the Auhtor of the Qur'an kept accusing the Jewish

scholars for messing up with the Scriptures.

He said they did so for preventing people to see Jesus as the

Christ

that is to say the Messiah

> =============================================================http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm

>

> "All those painted screens erected by man to shut out reality

> -- history, religion, duty, social position --

> all were illusions, mere opium fantasies"

> John Fowles, The French Lieutenant's Woman

> =============================================================- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

February 14, 2007

On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

> On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>

> >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>

> >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

> > --

> >Try showing that site to an actual historian.

> >See how hard you get laughed at.

>

> Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

> Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

> Jesus.

There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

No Jesus, No Christ

Simple logic. As simple as that. You think any chronicler

is an historian, you are wrong.

February 14, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in

news:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>> On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>> >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>> >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>> > --

>> >Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>> >See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>> Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>> Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>> Jesus.

>

> There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in

Christ/Messiah myth.

> And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

> would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

outside of the bible or the religion.

> No Jesus, No Christ

> Simple logic. As simple as that. You think any chronicler

> is an historian, you are wrong.

>

I agree. Chroniclers of the bible are far from historians.

--

Uncle Vic

aa Atheist #2011

Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped

chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Convicted by Earthquack

Plonked by Fester

February 14, 2007

"Snowman" <jkelley@zoomnet.net> wrote in news:1171429143.523699.170340

@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>

> http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

> --

> Try showing that site to an actual historian.

> See how hard you get laughed at.

>

I've been laughing at the absurd beliefs of Christians for many years.

--

Uncle Vic

aa Atheist #2011

Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped

chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Convicted by Earthquack

Plonked by Fester

February 14, 2007

<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote

> "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" wrote

>>

>> > <A0054...@airmail.net> wrote:

>> >> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>> >>> "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> >>>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote

>>

>> >>>>> At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the

>> >>>>> Acts of the Apostles appealed to Moses Deut 18:15

>> >>>>> to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah. At

>> >>>>> least I know that Paul made the same point during

>> >>>>> the jewish council. At least I know that the author

>> >>>>> of the Qur'an made the same claim. At least I know

>> >>>>> from the Jewish Oracle that the Messiah had to be

>> >>>>> born into the world. At least I know from the

>> >>>>> Testimonies of the Apostles that Jesus fits the

>> >>>>> description of whom the previous talked

>> >>>>> about. Act of the Apostles. So are you telling me

>> >>>>> that you read the whole "New Testament" without

>> >>>>> coming across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may

>> >>>>> have reading comprehension problem. So do all

>> >>>>> evol-atheist-secular jerks.

>>

>> >> >> Deuteronomy 18:15

>> >>>> The LORD your God will raise up for you a

>> >>>> prophet like me from among you - from your

>> >>>> fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.

>>

>> >>>> No reference to a messiah, a son of God, or to Jesus

>> >>>> Christ in this passage. Moses is merely telling the

>> >>>> people that there will be some one else to lead

>> >>>> them after he is gone.

>>

>> >>>> It shows how dishonest the author of the New

>> >>>> Testament can be.

>>

>> >>>And how dishonest the author of the Qur'an too because

>> >>> it is shown that he developped in his book this Mosaic

>> >>> pronouncement at lengh.

>> >>> FUCK YOU AND PLONK AGAIN

>>

>> >> You should get some help with that hostiliity.

>>

>> > Whatever, jerk.

>> > A bunch of atheistic jerks sit on their MONKEY asses and

>> > try to lectur us on things they are clueless about. HOW

>> > DARE!

>> > If you don't know Moses foretold Christ/Messiah how good

>> > is that reading of the Bible?

>> > If you don't know the point Peter made in front of the

>> > Children of Isreal, why don't you just leave the whole

>> > issue alone.

>>

>> Don't blame Peter for misquoting Deuteronomy 18:15. He probably didn't

>> say

>> it at all. It is the author, Luke, who claims that Peter said it, and

>> Luke

>> even contradicts himself.

>>

>> > If you can't make sense of Stephen speech before the

>> > Sanhedrin, why do you keep bragging about how smart

>> > you are?

>>

>> Again, Stephen's speech is recorded in Acts, which is supposed to have

>> been

>> written by Luke. But consider this:

>

> Paul claimed it in Roman and GALATIANS

>

>>

>> Acts 7:15-16

>> So Jacob went down to Egypt and died there, along

>> with our ancestors, and their bones were later moved

>> to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham

>> had bought for a certain sum of money from the sons

>> of Hamor in Shechem.

>>

>> However,

>>

>> Genesis 49:29-30

>> Then he (Jacob) instructed them, "I am about to go

>> to my people. Bury me with my fathers in the cave

>> in the field of Ephron the Hittite. It is the cave in the

>> field of Machpelah, near Mamre in the land of

>> Canaan, which Abraham bought for a burial plot from

>> Ephron the Hittite.

>>

>> The author of Acts does not know where Jacob was

>> buried.

>

> But Paul knew exactly what Moses said. His whole

> exegesis is based On Deuteronomy 18:15. Read Galates

> and Romans. And the author of the Qur'an who rebutted

> Paul over Moses' Law based his whole exegesis on what

> Moses told the Children of Israel. Usually when the rebutter

> and the rebutted agree on one thing this is called the common

> ground. The common ground between those two enemies,

> Paul and his reversal, the Qur'an, is Moses' promise

> to the Children of Israel in the Desert of Sinai.

> It is well balanced, it is you who are mising something. We

> are not. It is you who can't see this equilibrium because your

> brain has been damaged by EVOLUTION and natural

> selection.

>

> Once Deuteronomy 18:15 is missing in your reading of the

> New Testament the whole thing become messy and off-base

> to the point of looking like a fairy tale or a myth, but once

> Deuteronomy 18:15 is introduced history starts taking

> shape. It is a wonder. Our book is a wonder, a MIRACLE.

> Now be gone son of a bitch and plonk again. Let me sit

> here in the threshold of the two worlds, lost in the

> eloquence SILENCE

You still don't get it.

It does not matter who you quote, or where you quote it from. You cannot

change the fact that Deuteronomy 18:15 is a reference to Joshua son of Nun.

It has nothing at all to do with a messiah. All you have to do is read the

passage in context.

--Wax

February 14, 2007

On Feb 13, 6:36 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> On Feb 13, 1:54 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:

>

> > On Feb 13, 1:23 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

>

> > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> > > On Feb 13, 12:33 pm, "abracadabra" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>

> > > > "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

>

> > > >news:1171375553.307650.80700@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...

>

> > > > > On Feb 12, 4:27 pm, "abracadabra" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > > >> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

>

> > > > >>news:1171310111.284595.50290@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

>

> > > > >> >>

> > > > >> >> I would readily admit that I don't know what it is at stake in the

> > > > >> >> Bible or in the whole affair regarding Jesus.

>

> > > > >> >> I would also state that you don't know either.

>

> > > > >> > At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the Acts of the

> > > > >> > Apostles appealed

> > > > >> > to Moses Deut 18:15 to establish that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah.

>

> > > > >> Which version of the New Testament? Most versions rely on texts that are

> > > > >> questionable. None are based on original writings of the Apostles.

> > > > >> Reading

> > > > >> something in "a bible" means nothing.

>

> > > > > Now how about reading from the Talmud, the book by Jesus enemies. Try

> > > > > that.

>

> > > > I read lots of mythology as a kid, and I don't really have a need to read

> > > > any more mythology.

>

> > > > > I don't think anybody in his right mind would question the originality

> > > > > of the Epistle to Galatians. The Author of the Qur'an, the guy who

> > > > > analyzed and rebutted the Epistle to Galatians did not think it was

> > > > > not ORIGINAL otherwise he wouldn't have wasted his time and energy to

> > > > > rebuke it.

> > > > > Again OUR BOOK was written by believers and for believers, not for

> > > > > Atheists.

>

> > > > If you had read the New Testament, you'd know it was written for atheists as

> > > > well. Of course you're more of an atheist than I am - I don't profess to

>

> > > Luke wrote his book for Theophulus so that he may know the veracity of

> > > the teaching

> > > handed down to him.

> > > Through Teopholus it is the whole community of believers who are

> > > concerned

> > > by this book and not the doomed atheists.

>

> > > MAY YOU PERISH ALL. DOWN WITH THE LEFT, THE DEMO-CRAPS

>

> > > > know if any or all "gods" exist, but I'll bet real money that you don't

> > > > believe in any god but your own - you're an "atheist" to every god but one.

>

> > > > > The first Generation of believers did not have a book of New

> > > > > Testament, yet they all had faith in one Savior that Moses foretold.

>

> > > > Actually they had many faiths.- Hide quoted text -

>

> > > Show the historical evidence.

>

> > snip

>

> >http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

>

> > But I suspect an idiot like you will deny the evidence. Your little

> > dead-jew-on-a-stick never existed.

>

> Now pagan ritual is a historical fact. now that rabbish that you post

> is the ultimate evidence.Hmmmmmmm...

No, not the "ultimate". It's a place to begin, with all these

complicated things made simple enough for a shithead like you to

understand.

> Question: What evidence is there that this link meets the requirement

> needed

> for something to become an evidence?

> Now here is what you missed.

Here's what you missed, you knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing moron.

There is NO evidence that your insipid "Christ" ever lived. There is

an increasing amount of evidence that there was NO historical figure

for the legend of Jesus the rabbi to be based upon.

> The historical fact regarding Christ

> death and resurrection give meaning to paganism symbolism hence the

> inclusion that Paul debated against Jewish doctors of the Law. In

> another word Christ lurred

> pagans from polytheism into the Monotheism, the worship of One God

> of Israel. For anything, there is meaning, grasp the meaning and leave

> the rest alone.

"The rest"? Like the FACTS, dumbass?

> YOU SECUALR-EVOL-ATHEISTIC COALTION ARE AT A LOSS on this.

> Your analytical exegesis is poor. As soon as you see similarity

> instead of investigating to underline the meaning behind something.

> You just rush to conclusion.

Summing up the last 150 years of research by the finest minds in

archaeology, historical text research, and anthropology is a "rush to

conclusion"?

> yelling, "We have all figured out, it is pagan or this or that"

> YOUR KNOWLEDGE IS LAUGHABLE

And your lack of it even more so, idiot christian boy. Your religion

is dying out in every land where people are well educated. And there's

nothing you can do about it. So why don't you go pray in your closet

like your cheesy little book says, and leave normal, decent people

alone?

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta

aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!

EAC Martian Commander

Plonked by Kadaitcha Man Sept 06

"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."

-Mark Twain

Religious societies are less moral than secular ones:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

February 14, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in

news:1171410398.426495.228160@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> Whatever, jerk.

> A bunch of atheistic jerks sit on their MONKEY asses and try to

> lectur us on things

Hmmm. Who is the OP, Bernie? Why, it's YOU, isn't it? You chose to

crosspost this to alt.atheism, and you expected us to just ignore you?

> they are clueless about. HOW DARE!

Sez the clueless moron that doesn't even know his own family history. We

ALL came from the same ancestors as the apes. You can't wish that away.

> If you don't know Moses foretold Christ/Messiah how good is that

> reading of the Bible?

Don't give a shit.

> If you don't know the point Peter made in front of the Children of

> Isreal, why don't

Don't give a shit.

> you just leave the whole issue alone.

> If you can't make sense of Stephen speech before the Sanhedrin, why do

> you keep bragging about how smart you are?

Don't give a shit.

> If you don't know the point being made in the Qur'an in connection to

> Christ + Moses Law and you are unable to track it back to the

> council of Jerusalem, why don't you just shut up?

Don't give a shit.

> Down with you all

Which, in Australia, is up.

--

Uncle Vic

aa Atheist #2011

Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped

chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

Convicted by Earthquack

Plonked by Fester

February 14, 2007

On 13 Feb 2007 15:46:38 -0800, "codebreaker@bigsecret.com"

<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>On Feb 13, 6:14 pm, jem <A0054...@airmail.net> wrote:

>> On 13 Feb 2007 06:08:53 -0800, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

>>

>> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>> >On Feb 12, 10:55 pm, "weatherwax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> >> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote

>>

>> >> > At least I know that the Apostles as reported in the Acts

>> >> > of the Apostles appealed to Moses Deut 18:15 to establish

>> >> > that Jesus was the Christ/Messiah. At least I know that

>> >> > Paul made the same point during the jewish council.

>> >> > At least I know that the author of the Qur'an made the

>> >> > same claim. At least I know from the Jewish Oracle that

>> >> > the Messiah had to be born into the world.

>> >> > At least I know from the Testimonies of the Apostles that

>> >> > Jesus fits the description of whom the previous talked

>> >> > about. Act of the Apostles. So are you telling me that you

>> >> > read the whole "New Testament" without coming

>> >> > across this? Hmmmmmmmm.... You may have reading

>> >> > comprehension problem. So do all evol-atheist-secular

>> >> > jerks.

>>

>> >> Deuteronomy 18:15

>> >> The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet

>> >> like me from among you - from your fellow Israelites;

>> >> you must listen to him.

>>

>> >> No reference to a messiah, a son of God, or to Jesus Christ in this passage.

>> >> Moses is merely telling the people that there will be some one else to lead

>> >> them after he is gone.

>>

>> >> It shows how dishonest the author of the New Testament can be.

>>

>> >And how dishonest the author of the Qur'an too because it is shown

>> >that he developped in his book this Mosaic pronouncement at lengh.

>> >FUCK YOU AND PLONK AGAIN

>>

>> You should get some help with that hostiliity.

>

> Whatever, jerk.

> A bunch of atheistic jerks sit on their MONKEY asses and try to

>lectur us on things

>they are clueless about. HOW DARE!

>If you don't know Moses foretold Christ/Messiah how good is that

>reading of the Bible?

>If you don't know the point Peter made in front of the Children of

>Isreal, why don't

>you just leave the whole issue alone.

>If you can't make sense of Stephen speech before the Sanhedrin, why do

>you keep bragging about how smart you are?

>If you don't know the point being made in the Qur'an in connection to

>Christ + Moses Law and you are unable to track it back to the

>council of Jerusalem, why don't you just shut up?

>Down with you all

So all one has to have as qualification to be a jerk is to not believe

what you believe.

Irony meter overload.

If I don't know your myth to a great detail so that I can argue on

specifics, it doesn't change the fact that you are depending on myth

as fact. I have read and forgot (happily forgot) the specifics that

show how flawed your bible is. I loathe the hypocrisy of fundies. I

wouldn't be capable of managing the dissonance you are not even aware

of, congratulations.

Your knowledge of the bible doesn't impress near me as much as a

retarded kid knowing comprehensive sports trivia.

At least that kid is dealing with reality so he has an edge on you

there.

What would make mine a monkey ass and yours not a monkey ass? Does

your belief mean you were created by a god yet I was not? Are you

going to bring up some demon bullshit as an answer?

You go ahead and keep your mind in the bronze age, you have a lot of

company.

I'll be here in the 21st century, if you ever visit it drop me a line.

Work on curbing the hostility, its unhealthy. Even for a partitioned

mind.

>

>> Why are you so touchy when somebody criticizes your mythical hero or

>> his fiction writers or his frothing supporters?

>>

>> Maybe you should try a different author, it might calm you.

>> Try some Daniel Dennet, he's pretty gentle.

>>

>> >> --Wax- Hide quoted text -

>>

>> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>>

>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>>

>> - Show quoted text -

>

February 14, 2007

On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>

> > On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

> >> On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>

> >> >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>

> >> >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

> >> > --

> >> >Try showing that site to an actual historian.

> >> >See how hard you get laughed at.

>

> >> Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

> >> Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

> >> Jesus.

>

> > There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>

> There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in

> Christ/Messiah myth.

>

> > And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

> > would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>

> Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

> outside of the bible or the religion.

I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking

If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the

Origin of the species by Darwin...

Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.

Of course it is easy to toss the word evidence around to

look sophisticate, but we are not impressed as far

as we are concerned.

>

> > No Jesus, No Christ

> > Simple logic. As simple as that. You think any chronicler

> > is an historian, you are wrong.

>

> I agree. Chroniclers of the bible are far from historians.

>

> --

> Uncle Vic

> aa Atheist #2011

> Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped

> chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department

> Convicted by Earthquack

> Plonked by Fester

February 14, 2007

<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote

> Correction:

>

> Son of bitch, you are not istening. Two groups of

> Jewish scholars chose two different set of canon for the OLD

> TESTAMENT. Catholic Church aligned with one of the

> group by adopting the Scriptures it chose, Martin Luther later

> decided to adopt the Scriptures chosen by the second group.

> What part of this do you keep missing

You are totally confused.

--Wax

February 14, 2007

On Feb 14, 1:46 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Feb 13, 6:36 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

>

> <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>

> Summing up the last 150 years of research by the finest minds in

> archaeology, historical text research, and anthropology is a "rush to

> conclusion"?

150 years of what??????????????????? Fine mind?

You make me laugh indeed

February 14, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com"

> Let me tell again that you need to read the history of the

> Old Testament and how its canon was chosen. Christians

> had no control on this. If they had they would have included

> books quoted by Paul. Yet numerous books quoted

> by Paul such as the book of the jublile of Moses was

> rejected by the Jew as non authoritative.

> I was assuming that you are aware of the two groups of

> Jewish Scholars who selected two different canons. The

> babylonian Canon chosen by Jewish Scholar during their

> meeting in Babylon and the Palestinian Canon chosen in

> Palestine by another group of scholars.

You are confusing the Jewish canon with the Palestinian and Babylonian

Talmuds. The Talmuds are collections of the oral traditions plus

commenentary on the Tanake.

The Jewish canon was established long before the Talmuds.

The first two sections of the Jewish canon (the Torah and the Prophets) were

completed long before the Christian Jesus was born. And the third part (the

Writings) was completed about 100 c.e.

Early Christians used a Greek translation called the Septuagint which was

translated between 300 and 100 b.c.e. The Septuagint contained both the

Torah and the Prophets plus numerous other texts.

The Septuagint is still used by the Greek Orthodox Church, and early Latin

translations of the Old Testament were translated from the Septuagint.

When the Jewish cannon was completed it did not include all of the books

which were in the Septuagint.

In the 4th century, Jerome began a Latin translation based upon Hebrew

scripture. Those books which were not in the Jewish canon he translated

from the Greek but referred to them as the Apocrypha.

When Martin Luther produced his German translation he placed the Apocrypha

between the Old Testament and the New. The Apocrypha was originally

included in the King James Translation, bu in time Protestant denominations

discarded the Apocrypha altogether.

--Wax

ed. The Jewish canon was complete long

The Babylonian and Jerusalem scholars you refer to did not not establ

Christianity had

> always used one of these two sets of Canon until Martin

> Luther came along and threw some books out on the

> excuse that they were not inspired. Catholic still use these

> books as DEUTEROCANONICAL, that is to say second

> Canon. But as I said earlier it was for the Jew to decide the

> Canon of their Scriptures Christianity

>

>>

>> >> find whatever it is they want to find in there. Unfortunately for

>> >> believers, non-christians can do the same.

>>

>> > You can wish king Cirus was the Christ

>>

>> Who said anything about wishing that? You do seem to come out on some

>> odd

>> tangents, or have problems in reading what people actually write.

>

February 14, 2007

On Feb 14, 4:17 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> On Feb 14, 1:46 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:

>

> > On Feb 13, 6:36 pm, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

>

> > <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

>

> > Summing up the last 150 years of research by the finest minds in

> > archaeology, historical text research, and anthropology is a "rush to

> > conclusion"?

>

> 150 years of what??????????????????? Fine mind?

> You make me laugh indeed

That's because you're an ignorant, illiterate waste of humanity. Even

if you were smart enough to read the evidence, you're too scared of

what it might say.

Sooo...you simply laugh at it. You laugh to cover up your ignorance,

and you laugh to cover up your fear. A pathetic excuse for a human

being, cringing in fear of what you don't know.

A fine advertisement of what the disease called religion does to

someone.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta

aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!

EAC Martian Commander

Plonked by Kadaitcha Man Sept 06

"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."

-Mark Twain

Religious societies are less moral than secular ones:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

February 15, 2007

There is no contemporary evidence of Jesus.

There are for other figures in the new testament, like Pilate , John The

Baptist, The Jewish priests etc, Jesus disciples.

But nothing about Jesus .. which, considering the events surrounding his

birth, life and death, and the fame he supposedly had across the land is

highly implausible.

The lack of any third part evidence would be enough to relegate any similar

figure into the realms of myth or story.

> It is like asking If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside

> the

> Origin of the species by Darwin...

We ar etalking about a person .. not a theory. the theory exists already.

If you ar etalking about whetehr Darwin existed, there is plenty of

contemporary evidence about him from the time he lived. Including the books

he wrote.

There is nothing from when Jesus was supposedly alive .. no writings by him

or about him, no physical evidence .. nothing. All we have is stories that

first appeared many many years after his supposed death.

February 15, 2007

One fine day in alt.atheism, "codebreaker@bigsecret.com"

<Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> bloodied us up with this:

> On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote

>> innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>

>> > On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>> >> On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net>

>> >> wrote:

>>

>> >> >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>> >> >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>> >> > --

>> >> >Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>> >> >See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>> >> Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside

>> >> the Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an

>> >> historic Jesus.

>>

>> > There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>

>> There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF

>> in Christ/Messiah myth.

>>

>> > And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>> > would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>>

>> Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

>> outside of the bible or the religion.

>

> I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking

> If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the

> Origin of the species by Darwin...

We can, actually.

--

Uncle Vic

aa Atheist #2011

Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped

chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.

Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.

Member Duke Spanking Club.

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