Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

February 16, 2007

On 16 Feb 2007 11:34:31 -0800, in alt.atheism

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in

<1171654471.205453.30150@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>:

>On Feb 16, 1:52 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>wrote:

>> codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>> > On Feb 15, 2:01 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>> > wrote:

>>

>> >>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>> >>>On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>> >>>>"codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>

>> >>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>

>> >>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>> >>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>> >>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>> >>>>>>>--

>> >>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>> >>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>> >>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>> >>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>> >>>>>>Jesus.

>>

>> >>>>>There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>

>> >>>>There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in

>> >>>>Christ/Messiah myth.

>>

>> >>>>>And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>> >>>>>would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>>

>> >>>>Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

>> >>>>outside of the bible or the religion.

>>

>> >>>I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking

>> >>>If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the

>> >>>Origin of the species by Darwin...

>> >>>Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.

>>

>> >>===>That is STUPID!

>>

>> >>We know Darwin WROTE that book, we have his PICTURES,

>> >>even pictures of his father and sister.

>>

>> > YOU KNOW IT FROM WHO? NOT FROM DARWIN HIMSELF.

>> > You have his picture? How do you know If it is Darwin?

>> > Did you meet him in person before.

>> > You see again, somewhere you decide to trust someone who

>> > reported who Darwin was and wrote. We all depend

>> > on hearsay

>>

>> ===>What inane questions you hide behind!

>> Only an idiot would think there is any comparison between

>> evidence for Darwin and evidence for "Jesus". -- L.- Hide quoted text -

>>

>> - Show quoted text -

>

>Of course there is no comparison at all

We agree on that.

>Christ was foretold, Darwin not

There is no evidence that He was foretold.

>Christ resurrected, Darwin not

There is no evidence that He resurrected.

>Christ ascended in heaven, Darwin not

There is no evidence that He ascended.

>Christ open the gate of after life, Darwin can't even help himself

There no evidence for any afterlife.

>Christ will come again to judge Darwin, Darwin won't judge nobody

There is no evidence that there will be a judgement.

>The last word belong to Christ and not to Darwin

There is no evidence that any of your claims are related to reality.

February 17, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 15, 1:57 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>>>>>--

>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>>>>Jesus.

>>

>>> There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>> And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>>> would be born,

>>

>>===>NOWHERE is any such thing "prophecised". -- L.

>>

>>then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>

> You are such a prentious little asshole...

> Are you a Scibe versed in Moses Law? No

> Are you a Doctor of the Law? No

> Now you may think that anybody who can read and write

> should give his opnion on what the Law of Moses says

> and that opinion should become authoritative, it ain't so,

> Otherwise the whole Israel should turn into the

> land of lawyers and Scribes.

> The same way people are trained to explain the American

> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

> your PRIVATE OPINION.

> You are not a good Historian either, otherwise you would

> have baked your opinion up with something authorritative from the

> distant

> past. I went back 2000 years in time and quoted what

> Paul said about Deuteronomy 18:15 and how it applied to

> Jesus,

===>So, what?

Rabbi Akiba declared it was Bar Kochba!

Flavius Josephus dclared it was the Roman Emperor Vespasian!

In fact there never was and never will be any such person.

Your attempted historicizing is just pure nonsense.

Ridiculous.

I also quoted the Qur'an to support my opinion.

===>The Qur'an?

===>In fact Muslims claim that passage refers to MOHAMMED!

"From amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites.

You pile one laughable argumant on top of another.

> Apparently If you were a good historian you should do the same.

> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ, therefore the Apostle

> cheated.

===>That is very easy.

"The traditional Jewish interpretation is that

While, on the surface, Deuteronomy 18:9-22 might appear to be speaking

about a prophet, in reality it concerns the establishment of the Office

of the Prophet, a position filled by 50 Jewish prophets after Moses.

The Office of the Prophet is established via the expression "all that I

shall command him". If, for the sake of argument, one were to assume

that the prophet being described here is to be only one special future

prophet, then it follows that all prophets who came after Moses, except

for Moses and this particular prophet, were false prophets. And, one

must not ignore the warning found in Deuteronomy 18:20 concerning the

fate of a false prophet. This is, of course, absurd

February 17, 2007

totally discreditiung himself,

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

[sNIPALOT]

>

> How do you decide this is credible and this is not?

> Just because something meets your fantazy does not make it credible.

That is EXACTLY what "codebreaker" is doing, but unfortunately

he's too blinded by doctrinal prejudice to begin to think and

realize he's talking about himself and his kind.

However, he must be warned:

THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH! -- L.

February 17, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 15, 8:12 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 15, 2:01 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>"codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>

>>>>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>>>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>>>>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>>>>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>>>>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>>>>>>>>Jesus.

>>

>>>>>>>There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>

>>>>>>There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in

>>>>>>Christ/Messiah myth.

>>

>>>>>>>And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>>>>>>>would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>>

>>>>>>Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

>>>>>>outside of the bible or the religion.

>>

>>>>>I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking

>>>>>If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the

>>>>>Origin of the species by Darwin...

>>>>>Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.

>>

>>>>===>That is STUPID!

>>

>>>>We know Darwin WROTE that book, we have his PICTURES,

>>>>even pictures of his father and sister.

>>

>>>>The stories (Gospels) about "Christ" are pure fiction

>>>>written by some unknown Christian authors. -- L.- Hide quoted text -

>>

>>>Let us wait 2000 years later and see If his books, his sisters, father

>>>existence would not be questioned.

>>

>>===>What an inane response!

>

> Hey Historian, post your source from a first century Jerusalem

> authority

> who ever questioned Jesus existence.

===>No one in the first century ever heard of the "Jesus"

character of Gospel fiction.

> The Talmud did not question it. It had interest in doing so.

> The Jewish Council of Jamnia did not question it.

> It had interst in doing so.

===>They only made fun of the ridiculous claims of

the Pauline Christos Cult.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing"

"we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles

foolishness"

In fact it was pure craziness to all thinking, intelligent, educated

people since the first century!

THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH! -- L.

February 17, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 15, 8:19 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 15, 1:57 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>>>>>>Jesus.

>>

>>>>> There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>>>> And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>>>>> would be born,

>>

>>>>===>NOWHERE is any such thing "prophecised". -- L.

>>

>>>>then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>>

>>>I will believe that If the Jewish Council Of Jamnia claimed it.

>>>They are the gardiens and authority on this Jewish Scriptures.

>>>And since their goal was to stop the spread of Christianity,

>>>the system of belief grounded on Christ/Messiah, since their

>>>agenda was to stop it, "Moses never said such thing"

>>>would have been easier for them.

>>

>>===>Is it that much easier for you to just LIE than to tell

>>us WHERE "it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>>would be born"? -- L.- Hide quoted text -

>

> You are not a good historian. You take your opinion as history.

> I quoted text from first century Christians. You quoted nothing

> to support your view.

> What is the official opinion of the children of Israel

> on Jesus?

> If you say he was a prophet. My question is this?

> Why do you think they accepted a list of prophets

> like a Isaiah, Jeremy, Daniel, Habbakuk, Zakkariah and j'en passe

> and even compiled their books into a canonical writing, yet rejected

> Jesus?

===>Because ther was no such person. -- L.

February 17, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 15, 10:16 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>

>>>Why do you think they accepted a list of prophets

>>>like a Isaiah, Jeremy, Daniel, Habbakuk, Zakkariah and j'en passe

>>>and even compiled their books into a canonical writing, yet rejected

>>>Jesus?

>>>What rational explanation can you come up with?

>>

>>He didn't exist.

>

> How do you insult someone who never existed.

> Read the Talmud in its pages where Jesus and his mother are

> mentioned. It is even stupid to get angry at something which

> not real.

===>The Pauline Christos Cult was ridiculed.

"we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles

foolishness".

And that was before they began to claim there was a real PERSON who

was that "Christos". -- L.

February 17, 2007

Jeckyl wrote:

>>You are such a prentious little asshole...

>

> Charming.

>

>>The same way people are trained to explain the American

>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

>>your PRIVATE OPINION.

>

> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?

>

>>You are not a good Historian either

>

> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial

> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was

> supposedly alive.

>

>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

>

> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the

> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and

> jewish scripture do not say that.

>

>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

>>by some Historians?

>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause

>>and effect.

>

> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite

> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

>

>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

>

> It certainly does not support yours.

>

>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

>

> Shame that.

>

===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

the Pauline claims about "Christ".

It is as if some new sect decided it was Don Quixote.

No Don Quixote, No Christ. -- L.

February 17, 2007

Jeckyl wrote:

>>None of the Apostles contemporaries ever question Jesus existence.

>

> That shows a lack of critical thinking on their part.

>

> Of course, they didn't have the standard of historical evidence we have now,

> nor the tools to research it. So one really can't blame them for accepting

> what was told to them.

>

===>Thsoe "Apostles" are ALSO fictional characters, just like

the main protagonist "Jesus". -- L.

February 17, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 16, 1:52 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 15, 2:01 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

>>

>>>>>On Feb 14, 11:20 am, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>"codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote innews:1171458165.012872.319100@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>>

>>>>>>>On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>>On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>>

>>>>>>>>>http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

>>>>>>>>>--

>>>>>>>>>Try showing that site to an actual historian.

>>>>>>>>>See how hard you get laughed at.

>>

>>>>>>>>Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

>>>>>>>>Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

>>>>>>>>Jesus.

>>

>>>>>>>There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

>>

>>>>>>There would be no Christians without the religion, which is a BELIEF in

>>>>>>Christ/Messiah myth.

>>

>>>>>>>And since it is prophecised that in this world Christ

>>>>>>>would be born, then Christ was born in the form of Jesus.

>>

>>>>>>Circular argument. See if you can find evidence of an historic Jesus

>>>>>>outside of the bible or the religion.

>>

>>>>>I don't think this is what evidence means. It is like asking

>>>>>If we can find a record of Darwin of evolution outside the

>>>>>Origin of the species by Darwin...

>>>>>Yours is indeed a circular reasoning.

>>

>>>>===>That is STUPID!

>>

>>>>We know Darwin WROTE that book, we have his PICTURES,

>>>>even pictures of his father and sister.

>>

>>>YOU KNOW IT FROM WHO? NOT FROM DARWIN HIMSELF.

>>>You have his picture? How do you know If it is Darwin?

>>>Did you meet him in person before.

>>>You see again, somewhere you decide to trust someone who

>>>reported who Darwin was and wrote. We all depend

>>>on hearsay

>>

>>===>What inane questions you hide behind!

>>Only an idiot would think there is any comparison between

>>evidence for Darwin and evidence for "Jesus". -- L.- Hide quoted text -

>>

>>- Show quoted text -

>

> Of course there is no comparison at all

> Christ was foretold, Darwin not

> Christ resurrected, Darwin not

> Christ ascended in heaven, Darwin not

> Christ open the gate of after life, Darwin can't even help himself

> Christ will come again to judge Darwin, Darwin won't judge nobody

> The last word belong to Christ and not to Darwin

===>EXACTLY.

CHRIST is Fantasy/FICTION.

DARWIN not.

Thanks for the list. -- L.

>

February 17, 2007

> How do you know it is his? Someone claimed it

> How do you know it is ORIGINAL ? Someone told you so

> You had no way to know

> and this take us back to where we were. It take a trust

> in someone no matter what to believe something. We all depends

> on hearsay.

> Don't get confused. Hearsay can be done in writing.

> The claim that something is written down therefore it is not

> a hearsay is bogus. Now If you can believe all that Hoopla

> about Darwin, why do you demand a different standard for Jesus

> and his trusted apostles?

Your lack of knowledge on what constitutes historical evidence is appalling,

and your ramblings here are a nonsense. You think that trying to discredit

viable evidence for Darwin somehow makes up for the lack of credible

contemporary historical evidence for Jesus. . On the contrary, it highlights

it, and makes you look foolish in the process.

February 17, 2007

>> > Did you ever meet Darwin in person? No

>> > Where you there when he was writing? No

>> That doesn't matter .. its not required to be credibel historical

>> evidence.

> So why you keep claiming that since Luke never met Jesus therefore

> His report is not reliable

Exactly.

One doesn't personally have to have met every historical figure, but one

does require evidence form those who had met him, or were contemporary with

him and wrote about him, or evidence in the forms of artifacts or works

written by that person.

Nothing like that exists for Jesus.

February 17, 2007

>> Its called doing research. You shoul try it sometime. There is credible

> "Searching when you know nothing is like trying to sort weed from

> scratch when you don't even know what the scratch is made of."

Ok .. so then research would be pointless for you.

February 17, 2007

> Christ was foretold, Darwin not

A crist was foretold.. There is nothing to suggest that that is jesus (if he

existed)

> Christ resurrected, Darwin not