Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

February 18, 2007

After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 9:31 am

Bible Believer perhaps from noway@nowhere.com wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:46:23 +1100, "Jeckyl"

> <noone@nowhere.com> claimed:

>

>>> knew nothing of the Jesus of the gospels, which is a mish-mash of

>>> stories about earlier hero figures. All there is, is

>>> rationalisation.

>>

>>Yes . .there is a great deal in the story that is based on other myths

>>and legends and has been constructed to appear to fulfil scriptures.

>

> It is the other way around.

>

>>So is saying no such person exists. We have no conclusive proof

>>either way .. but there is non-conclusive 'evidence' (in the bible and

>>elsewhere).

>

> The science of textual criticism states that we accept

> a text as true, until it is proved false. Especially one

> that is historically accurate and the Bible texts are.

>

It is obvious that you know nothing about higher biblical criticism.

Your statement is false. A work that has such blatant examples of tall

tales like walking on water, zombies by the thousands getting up and

walking around, 7 loaves and fishes feeding hundreds of people, must be

considered at the onset as a work of fiction, myth etc. Only an idiot

would treat such a work of fiction as true.

>>> And please learn the difference between "the assertion that he never

>>> existed at all", and "no reason to believe he existed".

>>

>>Exactly my point .. perhaps you are missing it. There is no

>>historically

>>conclusive evidence for an historical Jesus. That does not mean it is

>>irational or illogical to personally believe that there was such a

>>person, as long as that believe does not contradict any evidence we do

>>have.

>

> See above. The fact is, that you don't question the existence

> of many historical figures, even though their existence is

> based on a copy of single text, by a third party much later.

>

> And it's not about "extraordinary claims requiring

> extraordinary evidence", because Caesar claimed to be,

> "God above all gods" and yet,

Where did he do this?

> even with only a small

> amount of textual evidence, his existence is not questioned.

Show u;s the writings of this Jesus. So us contemporary remarks by

others for this Jesus. Show us contemporary statutes or coins with the

portrat of this Jesus. Julius Caesar has been mentioned in the records

of the senate of his day. Who or what mentions anything about this

Jesus anywhere near his lifetime?

To same you the effort of looking the answers are none exist, none

exists, none exists, none exists and none exists. You comparison is

not even remotely apropos.

> This is hypocrisy!

>

No, rather your proposal is hypocrisy.

>>> As there is none for, there is no reason to assume he did.

>>

>>And none to assume he didn't. It works both ways.

>>

>>However, there is strong evidence against many of the events that were

>>supposed to take place concerning Jesus.

>

> That's not true.

>

Perhaps you might provide some of this evidence you say exists?

>

>>Do you have an explanation of the various new testament bible books

>>and letters (and the early non-canonical works such as the Gospel of

>>Thomas, the Egerton Gospel), and their chronology .. who wrote what

>>and upon what previous book it may have been based etc?

>

> Try to place on equal footing, texts that were not written

> by the people whose names appear on them and were

> actually written one to two centuries later, is disingenuous.

>

> What critics try to do, is use the date of a council in the

> 4th century and demand to know why certain books

> were excluded, without ever asking when the books were

> written and wondering if that's the reason they were excluded.

>

Those councils most likely could not tell when ANY of the texts nor by

whom they were written for those accepted and for those rejected. All

were anonymous as to author and date.

> Hello???

>

--

Later,

Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery

http://webpagesorcery.com

We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

February 18, 2007

On Feb 17, 7:04 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:43:15 +1100, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com>

> wrote:

>

> >> I am not applying double standard. You have one standard one

> >> Jesus and another standard for Darwin

>

> >Not at all .. its the same standard

>

> We have the writings of Darwin. We have his descendents. He is part of

> recent history.

Anybody can write anything and attributes it to a character that he

made up.

writing is no evidence of existence of someone.

Even If Jesus did write something we know you as malicious cunts, and

as so, we will come up with some malicious ideas that Paul wrote for

him

or this that or.

Did not Moses write the Torah, was that enough to count him

as a historical figure?

FUCK YOU AAAAALLLLLLLLLL

>

> Evidence points to him. Nobody starts off by "believing in" Darwin and

> then looking for something that can be rationalised as "proof".

>

> - Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

February 18, 2007

After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 2:01 pm

weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>

> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.

>>>>

>>>> I do.

>>>> Jesus never existed.

>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE for

>>>> your outrageous estimate of probability??

>>>> Yes, I thought so.

>>>>

>>>>> I am interested to hear

>>>>>your proof that Paul did not exist,

>>>>

>>>> Non sequitur!!!

>>>> Read what I wrote.

>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!

>>>>

>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with

>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?

>>>>

>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name the

>>>> con-men that started the scam, with proof that Jesus and

>>>> Paul really existed!!

>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?

>>>>

>>>> Fuck me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.

>>>

>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.

>>

>> I don't believe it!

>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?

>>

>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.

>>

>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian fairy

>> tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in power.

>>

>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional apologists

>> have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent plausiblility of

>> your baseless guesses on the subject.

>>

>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently

>> holidaying.

>

> So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make up, and

> sound convincing, but are less than worthless.

>

> --Wax

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. As the adage says -- don't

attribute to malice what can be accounted for by stupidity. For

example ask almost anyone who got kicked out of the Garden of Eden and

to a person they will say Adam and Eve even though some of them have

read those scriptures more than a hundred times. Yet they would be

wrong. The bible makes an explicit point to say the MAN (and only the

MAN) was sent from Eden.

--

Later,

Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery

http://webpagesorcery.com

We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

February 18, 2007

On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

>

> It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

> of Prophets. End of story. Another example of Christians invoking the

> "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy using texts from Tanach. Now you

> simply drag in Muslims as well. Christians and Muslims carry no

> theological weight for the Jews.

>

See I did not drag the Muslims in this, Muslims were in

this long ago. You did not know that? This is the reason

we have telling you to investigate more bfore taking

any position. Here is what dragged the Muslims.

Yet I did not write it:

Say people of the Book!

commit no excesses in your religion:

Nor say of God nothing but truth.

MESSIAH/CHRIST, Jesus the Son of Mary

was a Messenger of God, and His

WORD, which He casted in Mary,

and a Spirit proceeding from Him

So believe in God and His Messengers,

Say not Three: desist it will

be better for you for God is one.

Glory be to Him for far exalted

is He above having a Son. To

Him belong all things in heaven and on

earth. And enough is

God as a disposer of affairs. Qur'an 4:171

February 18, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

news:1171825168.844983.77200@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

> > codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > > On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > > wrote:

> > >> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > >>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > >>> wrote:

> > >>>> Jeckyl wrote:

> > >>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...

> > >>>>> Charming.

> > >>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American

> > >>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

> > >>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

> > >>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

> > >>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.

> > >>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the

messiah ?

> > >>>>>> You are not a good Historian either

> > >>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of

historial

> > >>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he

was

> > >>>>> supposedly alive.

> > >>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

> > >>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

> > >>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

> > >>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is

beside the

> > >>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old

testament and

> > >>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.

> > >>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

> > >>>>>> by some Historians?

> > >>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the

cause

> > >>>>>> and effect.

> > >>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you

would cite

> > >>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

> > >>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

> > >>>>> It certainly does not support yours.

> > >>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

> > >>>>> Shame that.

> > >>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

> > >>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".

> > >>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

> > >>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

> > >>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

> > >> ===>I don't "believe" it.

> > >> I KNOW it.

> >

> > >>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

> > >>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep

repeating.

> >

> > > Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba

> > > was the Messiah/Christ.

> >

> > He goofed, and he paid the price.

> >

> > > We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's

> > > claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS

> > > we can help you connect them. But before anything let me

> > > ask you some:

> > > Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where

> > > do you think that he based his claim on?

> > > Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the

> > > Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,

> > > where do you think he based his claim on?.

> >

> > > Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva

> > > Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author

> > > of the Qur'an, The Ebionites

> > > and thousand of Rabbis who later

> > > converted into Islam all agree on one thing:

> > > in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.

> > > And this is what we have been saying.

> >

> > It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

> > of Prophets.

>

> The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.

> So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel

> here we are concerned with only one particular prophet

> like Moses and that is the Messiah/Christ.

> LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON

> OF A JEWISH WHORE

>

Prove he is the son of a Jewish whore!!!

Didn't think you could....

Host

February 18, 2007

On Feb 18, 3:51 pm, "the_Host" <the_H...@everywhere.net> wrote:

> "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

>

> news:1171825168.844983.77200@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>

> > On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

> > > codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > > > On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > > > wrote:

> > > >> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > > >>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > > >>> wrote:

> > > >>>> Jeckyl wrote:

> > > >>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...

> > > >>>>> Charming.

> > > >>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American

> > > >>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

> > > >>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

> > > >>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

> > > >>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.

> > > >>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the

> messiah ?

> > > >>>>>> You are not a good Historian either

> > > >>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of

> historial

> > > >>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he

> was

> > > >>>>> supposedly alive.

> > > >>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

> > > >>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

> > > >>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

> > > >>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is

> beside the

> > > >>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old

> testament and

> > > >>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.

> > > >>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

> > > >>>>>> by some Historians?

> > > >>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the

> cause

> > > >>>>>> and effect.

> > > >>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you

> would cite

> > > >>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

> > > >>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

> > > >>>>> It certainly does not support yours.

> > > >>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

> > > >>>>> Shame that.

> > > >>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

> > > >>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".

> > > >>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

> > > >>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

> > > >>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

> > > >> ===>I don't "believe" it.

> > > >> I KNOW it.

>

> > > >>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

> > > >>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep

> repeating.

>

> > > > Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba

> > > > was the Messiah/Christ.

>

> > > He goofed, and he paid the price.

>

> > > > We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's

> > > > claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS

> > > > we can help you connect them. But before anything let me

> > > > ask you some:

> > > > Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where

> > > > do you think that he based his claim on?

> > > > Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the

> > > > Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,

> > > > where do you think he based his claim on?.

>

> > > > Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva

> > > > Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author

> > > > of the Qur'an, The Ebionites

> > > > and thousand of Rabbis who later

> > > > converted into Islam all agree on one thing:

> > > > in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.

> > > > And this is what we have been saying.

>

> > > It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

> > > of Prophets.

>

> > The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.

> > So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel

> > here we are concerned with only one particular prophet

> > like Moses and that is the Messiah/Christ.

> > LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON

> > OF A JEWISH WHORE

>

> Prove he is the son of a Jewish whore!!!

> Didn't think you could....

>

> Host- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

You are the proof. Otherwise you would not be here

February 18, 2007

"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote

> weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.

>>>>>

>>>>> I do.

>>>>> Jesus never existed.

>>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE

>>>>> for your outrageous estimate of probability??

>>>>> Yes, I thought so.

>>>>>

>>>>>> I am interested to hear

>>>>>> your proof that Paul did not exist,

>>>>>

>>>>> Non sequitur!!!

>>>>> Read what I wrote.

>>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!

>>>>>

>>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with

>>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?

>>>>>

>>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name

>>>>> the con-men that started the scam, with proof that

>>>>> Jesus and Paul really existed!!

>>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?

>>>>>

>>>>> Fuck me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.

>>>>

>>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.

>>>

>>> I don't believe it!

>>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?

>>>

>>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.

>>>

>>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian

>>> fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in

>>> power.

>>>

>>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional

>>> apologists have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent

>>> plausiblility of your baseless guesses on the subject.

>>>

>>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently

>>> holidaying.

>>

>> So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make

>> up, and sound convincing, but are less than worthless.

>>

>> --Wax

>

> It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. As the adage says --

> don't attribute to malice what can be accounted for by

> stupidity. For example ask almost anyone who got kicked out

> of the Garden of Eden and to a person they will say Adam and

> Eve even though some of them have read those scriptures more

> than a hundred times. Yet they would be wrong. The bible

> makes an explicit point to say the MAN (and only the

> MAN) was sent from Eden.

Michael Gray said. "I have the very plausible theory that most of the

Christian fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested

interest in power." That's called a "conspiracy theory."

--Wax

February 18, 2007

"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote

> Bible Believer perhaps from noway@nowhere.com wrote:

< CLIP >

>>

>> And it's not about "extraordinary claims requiring

>> extraordinary evidence", because Caesar claimed to be,

>> "God above all gods" and yet,

>

> Where did he do this?

Julius Caesar never claimed to be a God, but Augustus saw him in a vision

and had the Roman Senate declare Caesar to be a God. This allowed Augustus

to claim the title "Son of God". I don't know if Tiberius made any such

claims, but Caligula said he was an incarnated God.

--Wax

February 18, 2007

>> It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

>> of Prophets.

> The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.

That is a point .. it refers to a particular prophet. Which prophet, it

doesn't say.

it does not say that prophet is the Christ or Messiah, just that the prophet

will speak God's word, and then goes on to describe how you can tell (which

is basically, if a prophecy comes true, it came from God, otherwise it

didn't)

> So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel

> here we are concerned with only one particular prophet

> like Moses

Yes

> and that is the Messiah/Christ.

It doesn't say that. You're reading things into it that aren't actually

there. It may well be that the people beofer and up to the time of Jesus

believed that .. people do tend to read a lot into individual lines of

scripture. Do we have any information about what was actually taught and

believed in those times regarding the prophet described in that verse being

associated also with the messiah?

Note: I'm not saying it wasn't .. just that the verse itself does not make

that association. And "yes it does / no it doesn't" arguments aren't

helping at all. Nor do presenting the interpretations of people AFTER that

time. I'd just like to see something relevant that proves (or illustrates)

your point about how people pre-Jesus did actually interpret the prophet

describe to be.

> LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON

> OF A JEWISH WHORE

Again, personal insults. You're losing any respect I may have had for you by

lowering yourself like that. And you dare to call yourself a chrristian.

Shame.

February 18, 2007

> Here is what dragged the Muslims.

> Yet I did not write it:

> Say people of the Book!

> commit no excesses in your religion:

> Nor say of God nothing but truth.

> MESSIAH/CHRIST, Jesus the Son of Mary

> was a Messenger of God, and His

> WORD, which He casted in Mary,

> and a Spirit proceeding from Him

> So believe in God and His Messengers,

> Say not Three: desist it will

> be better for you for God is one.

> Glory be to Him for far exalted

> is He above having a Son. To

> Him belong all things in heaven and on

> earth. And enough is

> God as a disposer of affairs. Qur'an 4:171

Yes, the Quran does recognize the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

But it says nothing about the passage in Deut predicting the messiah. That

quote from the Quran does not mean that people at and before the time of

Jesus associated the prophet promised in that passage of Deut with the

Messiah, or that Jesus was that prophet.

BTW: you missed out on an 'only' in 'was ONLY a messenger of Allah'.

February 18, 2007

> Even If Jesus did write something

If he did, and we had it, that would bethe evidence that we want to see.

> we know you as malicious cunts

Who are you calling a malicious cunt?

> Did not Moses write the Torah, was that enough to count him

> as a historical figure?

I don't think people doubt the existence of Moses.

> FUCK YOU AAAAALLLLLLLLLL

You obviously know that you have no grounds for your supposed arguments if

you are resorting to swearing and name calling . Very unchristian.

February 18, 2007

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:01:56 GMT, "weatherwax"

<weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

- Refer: <Eo1Ch.86572$2m6.79831@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

>

>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.

>>>>

>>>> I do.

>>>> Jesus never existed.

>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE for

>>>> your outrageous estimate of probability??

>>>> Yes, I thought so.

>>>>

>>>>> I am interested to hear

>>>>>your proof that Paul did not exist,

>>>>

>>>> Non sequitur!!!

>>>> Read what I wrote.

>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!

>>>>

>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with

>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?

>>>>

>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name the

>>>> con-men that started the scam, with proof that Jesus and

>>>> Paul really existed!!

>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?

>>>>

>>>> Fuck me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.

>>>

>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.

>>

>> I don't believe it!

>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?

>>

>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.

>>

>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian fairy

>> tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in power.

>>

>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional apologists

>> have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent plausiblility of

>> your baseless guesses on the subject.

>>

>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently

>> holidaying.

>

>So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make up, and sound

>convincing, but are less than worthless.

Once again, you do not appear to have read what I wrote.

I see that I made a mistake in assuming that a conversation with you

might be of some productive value, but I see that I am wasting my

time.

By your pathetic "logic", anyone who claims that Sherlock Holmes is

not real is indulging in a conspiracy theory??

Gimme a break.

Get real or get plonked.

--

February 18, 2007

My point is that there is LESS evidence for Jesus than for John the Baptist.

At least the account in Josephus is regarded as legitimate, rather than the

much latter addition of a passage about Jesus. Josephus is _close_ to

contemporary evidence for John (who was beheaded around the same time as

Josephus was born). He would have had access at least to those who were

contemporary with John, but that still makes it technically hearsay

evidence.

> Codebreaker can no more provide evidence that John the Baptist nor any

> apostle existed any more than he could for Joshua ben Joseph.

The point I'm making is that he can provide even LESS evidence for Jesus

that for those other figures like John whose evidence is arguable.

February 18, 2007

>>Yes . .there is a great deal in the story that is based on other myths and

>>legends and has been constructed to appear to fulfil scriptures.

> It is the other way around.

That doesn't seem to make sense .. those myths and legends existed before

the bible stories were written. So they could not have been written to

fullfil scripture.

>>So is saying no such person exists. We have no conclusive proof either

>>way

>>.. but there is non-conclusive 'evidence' (in the bible and elsewhere).

> The science of textual criticism states that we accept

> a text as true, until it is proved false. Especially one

> that is historically accurate and the Bible texts are.

They are not historically accurate .. like any good work of fiction, they

have some historical facts within them .. that does not make them factual or

accurate documents.

Regardless. the bible stories that are written as first-hand information

about Jesus are not contemporary with Jesus, and those that are cloer to

contmporary are not first hand (Paul never met Jesus) so both are

inadmissable.

Maybe we will find something some day that is .. its amazing what new things

archeoligst uncover.

> See above. The fact is, that you don't question the existence

> of many historical figures, even though their existence is

> based on a copy of single text, by a third party much later.

Which figures are you referring to?

And regardless.. I ahve bene talking here about historical proof .. There is

none.

>>> As there is none for, there is no reason to assume he did.

>>And none to assume he didn't. It works both ways.

>>However, there is strong evidence against many of the events that were

>>supposed to take place concerning Jesus.

> That's not true.

Yes .. it is. However, it is not historically provable, but that none of

the events were recorded as having happened. Events of the significance and

far reaching effects (erathquakes, multitudes follwoing Jesus, herod killing

children, etc) would have been recorded somewhere .. but they haven't. That

evidence (or I guess technically, lack of evidence) strongly suggests that

those events did not happen). But it si not really historical proof.

> What critics try to do, is use the date of a council in the

> 4th century and demand to know why certain books

> were excluded, without ever asking when the books were

> written and wondering if that's the reason they were excluded.

> Hello???

Yes .. and that has nothing to do with historical proof .. its theology.

February 18, 2007

After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 4:48 pm

weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>

> "Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote

>> weatherwax perhaps from weatherwax@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>>> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>>>"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote

>>>>>> "weatherwax" <weatherwax@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>I assume that you have a more probable theory.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I do.

>>>>>> Jesus never existed.

>>>>>> I assume by your reply that you have ZERO EVIDENCE

>>>>>> for your outrageous estimate of probability??

>>>>>> Yes, I thought so.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I am interested to hear

>>>>>>> your proof that Paul did not exist,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Non sequitur!!!

>>>>>> Read what I wrote.

>>>>>> I was referring to Jesus, as were you!

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>and if Christianity did not start with

>>>>>>>Paul, who started it, and when did it begin?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> You are conflating my personally not being able to name

>>>>>> the con-men that started the scam, with proof that

>>>>>> Jesus and Paul really existed!!

>>>>>> Where did your brain go on holiday too?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Fuck me, you are as bad as the worst theist kooks.

>>>>>

>>>>>In other words: You have no credible theory.

>>>>

>>>> I don't believe it!

>>>> Are you deliberately acting stupid?

>>>>

>>>> You plainly did not read what I wrote.

>>>>

>>>> I have the very plausible theory that most of the Christian

>>>> fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested interest in

>>>> power.

>>>>

>>>> That is far more credible than anything that delusional

>>>> apologists have arrived at, and far exceeds the non-existent

>>>> plausiblility of your baseless guesses on the subject.

>>>>

>>>> You never did answer me as to where you brain is currently

>>>> holidaying.

>>>

>>> So you have a conspiracy theory. Those are easy to make

>>> up, and sound convincing, but are less than worthless.

>>>

>>> --Wax

>>

>> It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. As the adage says --

>> don't attribute to malice what can be accounted for by

>> stupidity. For example ask almost anyone who got kicked out

>> of the Garden of Eden and to a person they will say Adam and

>> Eve even though some of them have read those scriptures more

>> than a hundred times. Yet they would be wrong. The bible

>> makes an explicit point to say the MAN (and only the

>> MAN) was sent from Eden.

>

> Michael Gray said. "I have the very plausible theory that most of the

> Christian fairy tale was invented by humans with a vested

> interest in power." That's called a "conspiracy theory."

No it isn't. To be a conspiracy all of those writers would have had to

act in unison. That wasn't what happened. And outside the scribes

that were in a conspiracy to concoct the Torah "discovered" by King

Josiah, there is no evidence any of the other biblical writers actually

knew each other especially when considering almost all of scripture was

written anonymously.

It was more in the nature of knowing a good story and running with it

and changing some of it to fit one's own theology/philosophy.

>

> --Wax

--

Later,

Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery

http://webpagesorcery.com

We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

February 18, 2007

On Feb 14, 8:02 am, "codebrea...@bigsecret.com"

<Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:

> On Feb 14, 12:40 am, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:

>

> > On 13 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0800, "Snowman" <jkel...@zoomnet.net> wrote:

>

> > >On Feb 12, 3:06 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:

>

> > >http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

> > > --

> > >Try showing that site to an actual historian.

> > >See how hard you get laughed at.

>

> > Try finding a real historian who can provide any evidence outside the

> > Christian tradition to corroborate Christian claims of an historic

> > Jesus.

>

> There would not be Christians without Christ/Messiah

Right. And there wouldn't be Mithraists without Mithra. Moron.

February 18, 2007

"codebreaker@bigsecret.com" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

news:1171832599.665162.296470@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> On Feb 18, 3:51 pm, "the_Host" <the_H...@everywhere.net> wrote:

> > "codebrea...@bigsecret.com" <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote in message

> >

> > news:1171825168.844983.77200@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> >

> > > On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

> > > > codebrea...@bigsecret.com wrote:

> > > > > On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > >> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > > > >>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius

<Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > > > >>> wrote:

> > > > >>>> Jeckyl wrote:

> > > > >>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...

> > > > >>>>> Charming.

> > > > >>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American

> > > > >>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

> > > > >>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

> > > > >>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

> > > > >>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.

> > > > >>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as

the

> > messiah ?

> > > > >>>>>> You are not a good Historian either

> > > > >>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of

> > historial

> > > > >>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when

he

> > was

> > > > >>>>> supposedly alive.

> > > > >>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

> > > > >>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

> > > > >>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

> > > > >>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is

> > beside the

> > > > >>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old

> > testament and

> > > > >>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.

> > > > >>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

> > > > >>>>>> by some Historians?

> > > > >>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the

> > cause

> > > > >>>>>> and effect.

> > > > >>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise

you

> > would cite

> > > > >>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

> > > > >>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

> > > > >>>>> It certainly does not support yours.

> > > > >>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

> > > > >>>>> Shame that.

> > > > >>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

> > > > >>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".

> > > > >>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

> > > > >>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

> > > > >>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

> > > > >> ===>I don't "believe" it.

> > > > >> I KNOW it.

> >

> > > > >>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

> > > > >>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep

> > repeating.

> >

> > > > > Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba

> > > > > was the Messiah/Christ.

> >

> > > > He goofed, and he paid the price.

> >

> > > > > We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's

> > > > > claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS

> > > > > we can help you connect them. But before anything let me

> > > > > ask you some:

> > > > > Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where

> > > > > do you think that he based his claim on?

> > > > > Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the

> > > > > Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,

> > > > > where do you think he based his claim on?.

> >

> > > > > Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva

> > > > > Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author

> > > > > of the Qur'an, The Ebionites

> > > > > and thousand of Rabbis who later

> > > > > converted into Islam all agree on one thing:

> > > > > in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.

> > > > > And this is what we have been saying.

> >

> > > > It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains

lots

> > > > of Prophets.

> >

> > > The text say, you shall listen to HIM and not to THEM.

> > > So it does not matter how many prophets arose in Israel

> > > here we are concerned with only one particular prophet

> > > like Moses and that is the Messiah/Christ.

> > > LITTLE COMMON SENSE IS WHAT YOU NEED SON

> > > OF A JEWISH WHORE

> >

> > Prove he is the son of a Jewish whore!!!

> > Didn't think you could....

> >

> > Host- Hide quoted text -

> >

> > - Show quoted text -

>

> You are the proof. Otherwise you would not be here

>

You have to do better than that, that wasn't even funny...

Host

yo

February 19, 2007

Tohu.Bohu@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>Jeckyl wrote:

>>

>>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...

>>

>>>Charming.

>>

>>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American

>>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

>>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

>>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

>>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.

>>

>>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?

>>

>>>>You are not a good Historian either

>>

>>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial

>>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was

>>>supposedly alive.

>>

>>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

>>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

>>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

>>

>>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the

>>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and

>>>jewish scripture do not say that.

>>

>>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

>>>>by some Historians?

>>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause

>>>>and effect.

>>

>>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite

>>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

>>

>>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

>>

>>>It certainly does not support yours.

>>

>>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

>>

>>>Shame that.

>>

>>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

>>the Pauline claims about "Christ".

>

> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.

===>No claiom is based on Deut. 18:14-19,

only YOURS. -- L.

February 19, 2007

Christopher A.Lee wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:57:58 +1100, "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com>

> wrote:

>

>>>Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book

>>>by Jesus enemies.

>>

>>Can you please quote the reference to it.

>

> It seems to be a later response to what Christians said. But all I

> know of this comes from a book by Frank Zindler, The Jesus the Jews

> Never Knew.

===>The Jews have known THOUSANDS of "Yeshuas".

But nobody knew the IESOUS of Gospel fiction,

since he never existed. -- L.

February 19, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> wrote:

>

>>Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>

>>>On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>wrote:

>>

>>>>Jeckyl wrote:

>>

>>>>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...

>>

>>>>>Charming.

>>

>>>>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American

>>>>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

>>>>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

>>>>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

>>>>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.

>>

>>>>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?

>>

>>>>>>You are not a good Historian either

>>

>>>>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial

>>>>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was

>>>>>supposedly alive.

>>

>>>>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

>>>>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

>>>>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

>>

>>>>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the

>>>>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and

>>>>>jewish scripture do not say that.

>>

>>>>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

>>>>>>by some Historians?

>>>>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause

>>>>>>and effect.

>>

>>>>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite

>>>>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

>>

>>>>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

>>

>>>>>It certainly does not support yours.

>>

>>>>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

>>

>>>>>Shame that.

>>

>>>>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

>>>>the Pauline claims about "Christ".

>>

>>>It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

>>>Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

>>>Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

>>

>>===>I don't "believe" it.

>>I KNOW it.

>>

>>>Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

>>>based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.

>>

>>===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep repeating.

>

> Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba

> was the Messiah/Christ.

===>He PROCLAIMED Bar Kokhba as the Messiah.

> We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's

> claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS

> we can help you connect them. But before anything let me

> ask you some:

> Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where

> do you think that he based his claim on?

===>Definitely NOT on Deuteronomy!

Only YOU keep ASSSerting that it has to do with

"the Messiah". -- L.

February 19, 2007

On Feb 18, 7:09 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> Christopher A.Lee wrote:

> > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:57:58 +1100, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com>

> > wrote:

>

> >>>Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book

> >>>by Jesus enemies.

>

> >>Can you please quote the reference to it.

>

> > It seems to be a later response to what Christians said. But all I

> > know of this comes from a book by Frank Zindler, The Jesus the Jews

> > Never Knew.

>

> ===>The Jews have known THOUSANDS of "Yeshuas".

> But nobody knew the IESOUS of Gospel fiction,

> since he never existed. -- L.

You did not do your RESEARCH. Were all those thousand

IESOUS born of Maries?

February 19, 2007

On Feb 18, 7:07 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

wrote:

> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

> > wrote:

>

> >>Jeckyl wrote:

>

> >>>>You are such a prentious little asshole...

>

> >>>Charming.

>

> >>>>The same way people are trained to explain the American

> >>>>Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

> >>>>trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

> >>>>You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

> >>>>your PRIVATE OPINION.

>

> >>>So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the messiah ?

>

> >>>>You are not a good Historian either

>

> >>>You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial

> >>>evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was

> >>>supposedly alive.

>

> >>>>Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

> >>>>a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

> >>>>18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

>

> >>>Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is beside the

> >>>point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old testament and

> >>>jewish scripture do not say that.

>

> >>>>Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

> >>>>by some Historians?

> >>>>Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause

> >>>>and effect.

>

> >>>Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you would cite

> >>>the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

>

> >>>>Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

>

> >>>It certainly does not support yours.

>

> >>>>JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

>

> >>>Shame that.

>

> >>===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

> >>the Pauline claims about "Christ".

>

> > It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

> > Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

> > Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

> > Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

> > based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.

>

> ===>No claiom is based on Deut. 18:14-19,

> only YOURS. -- L.

You are not even honest with the text

February 19, 2007

cactus wrote:

> codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

>

>> On Feb 17, 5:04 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Tohu.B...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>

>>>> On Feb 16, 7:26 pm, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Jeckyl wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>>> You are such a prentious little asshole...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Charming.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> The same way people are trained to explain the American

>>>>>>> Constitution, the same way there were people in Israel

>>>>>>> trained to read the Law of Moses and interprete it.

>>>>>>> You are not ONE of them, so why should I care about

>>>>>>> your PRIVATE OPINION.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> So are you saying that the Jewish faith recognises Jesus as the

>>>>>> messiah ?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> You are not a good Historian either

>>>>>>

>>>>>> You ceratinly aren't .. you've not given one single bit of historial

>>>>>> evidence. Only hearsay from people who never new jesus when he was

>>>>>> supposedly alive.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Go back to first Century Jerusalem and quote a Scribe or

>>>>>>> a doctor of the Mosaic Law who ever said that Deuteronomy

>>>>>>> 18:15 never was about a Messiah/Christ

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Whether or not the Jews where expecting a promised messiah is

>>>>>> beside the

>>>>>> point. The issue is whether jesus was that messiah. The old

>>>>>> testament and

>>>>>> jewish scripture do not say that.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Do you think that being historian mean reading the works

>>>>>>> by some Historians?

>>>>>>> Being historian means being able to investigate and find the cause

>>>>>>> and effect.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Exactly .. obviosuly not something you have done, otherwise you

>>>>>> would cite

>>>>>> the credible contemporary evidence of Jesus existence.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hey it looks like History does not support your viewpoint.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> It certainly does not support yours.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> JESUS IS THE CHRIST, NO JESUS, NO CHRIST

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Shame that.

>>>>>

>>>>> ===>In fact the Gospel writers invented "Jesus" to strengthen

>>>>> the Pauline claims about "Christ".

>>>>

>>>> It is easy to claim it, now you must prove it.

>>>> Given the fact that you believe that Rabbi Akkiba accepted

>>>> Bar Khobba as the Messiah of Israel.

>>>

>>> ===>I don't "believe" it.

>>> I KNOW it.

>>>

>>>> Given the fact that any Jewish claim about the Messiah is always

>>>> based on Deuteronomy 18:14-19.>> ===>FALSE ASSertiom you keep

>>>> repeating.

>

>>

>> Did not you say that Rabbi Akiva believe Bar-Khobba

>> was the Messiah/Christ.

>

> He goofed, and he paid the price.

>

>> We are reading the same source about Bar-Khobbah's

>> claim, so If you can't connect the DOTS

>> we can help you connect them. But before anything let me

>> ask you some:

>> Bar-Khobbah claimed that he was the Messiah. Where

>> do you think that he based his claim on?

>> Rabbi Akiva anointed Bar-Khobba thinking he was the

>> Messiah/Christ, though he changed his mind later,

>> where do you think he based his claim on?.

>>

>> Now as you see. Bar Khobba, Rabbi Akiva

>> Jesus, Paul, Peter, Appolos, Stephen, the author

>> of the Qur'an, The Ebionites

>> and thousand of Rabbis who later

>> converted into Islam all agree on one thing:

>> in Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses fortold the Messiah.

>> And this is what we have been saying.

>

> It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

> of Prophets. End of story. Another example of Christians invoking the

> "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy using texts from Tanach. Now you

> simply drag in Muslims as well. Christians and Muslims carry no

> theological weight for the Jews.

>

>>

>> Reading historical material is useless If you can't connect

>> the dots

>

> And misinterpreting it is equally useless.

>

>>

>>>> Given the fact Jesus TRIAL is mentioned in the Talmuld a book

>>>> by Jesus enemies.

>>>

>>> ===>Not the "Jesus" of the NT!

>>

>> How many Jesuses broke Moses Law on SABBATH day

>> when Pontius Pilatius was Governor of Judea?

>> How many Jesuses did Caiphas trialed, you son of a bitch?

>>

>>>> Given the fact that the Gospel writers could not write the Talmud

>>>

>>> ===>Irrelevant.

>>

>> Irrelevant to you because it caught you off guard.

>> Talmud was not written by Luke or Mark or Matthew

>> yet it mentions a trial of a man named Jesus who was later

>> put to death

>>

>>>> It is safe to believe that Jesus existed as a historical

>>>> figure

>>>

>>> ===>NON SEQUITUR, based on false premises.

>>

>> What is my premises here. Please tell me If you have

>> any clue

>>

>>> and that Deuteronomy 18:14-19 in the words of

>>>

>>>> Rabbi Akiva is about the Messiah/Christ that Paul

>>>> did not invent.

>>>

>>> ===>FALSE ASSertion,

>>> FALSE CONCLUSION. -- L.- Hide quoted text -

>>

>> You are not ashamed of yourself yet?

>> A fictional character invented by Paul would not

>> be applied to Bar Khobba.

===>What kind of dishonest nitwit are you?

NO ONE appleis ANYTHING of Saul/Paul to Bar Kokhba.

Yet Bar Kobba and

>> his Rabbi thought he was the Messiah/Christ.

===>Why do you keep on LYING, falsely combining

"Messiah" with "Christ"?

How dishonest can you get?

therefore Paul did not invent him.

===>You're NUTS!

Saul/Paul invented the god CHRISTOS

for his new savior cult.

NOTHING to do with the Jewish "Messiah".

>> Rabbi Paul and Rabbi Akiva are reading the same

>> source, the Torah of Moses. AS SIMPLE AS THAT

===>For a simple-minded nitwit like YOU

it looks that "simple".

Oh, well.........

THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH,

so, don't even try it. -- L.

February 19, 2007

After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 18 February 2007 5:52 pm

Jeckyl perhaps from noone@nowhere.com wrote:

>> Did not Moses write the Torah, was that enough to count him

>> as a historical figure?

>

> I don't think people doubt the existence of Moses.

>

Yes, they indeed do. Modern archaeology discoveries discount the whole

of the Exodus episode. There was no evidence. And that can be summed

up in one word -- shit. Three million people would leave a lot of it

after rambling around the desert for 40 years. And no bones and no

pottery shards, and no garbage. Josiah's scribes made most of the

Torah up perhaps from oral legends and perhaps from whole cloth to lend

credence to their right to control and kill the inhabitants of the

territories they adopted after King Darius sent them back with his

blessings and musclemen.

--

Later,

Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

Webpage Sorcery

http://webpagesorcery.com

We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

February 19, 2007

codebreaker@bigsecret.com wrote:

> On Feb 18, 1:33 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

>

>>It doesn't. All it does is mention Prophets, and Nevi'im contains lots

>>of Prophets. End of story. Another example of Christians invoking the

>>"post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy using texts from Tanach. Now you

>>simply drag in Muslims as well. Christians and Muslims carry no

>>theological weight for the Jews.

>>

>

> See I did not drag the Muslims in this, Muslims were in

> this long ago. You did not know that? This is the reason

> we have telling you to investigate more bfore taking

> any position. Here is what dragged the Muslims.

> Yet I did not write it:

> Say people of the Book!

> commit no excesses in your religion:

> Nor say of God nothing but truth.

> MESSIAH/CHRIST, Jesus the Son of Mary

> was a Messenger of God, and His

> WORD, which He casted in Mary,

> and a Spirit proceeding from Him

> So believe in God and His Messengers,

> Say not Three: desist it will

> be better for you for God is one.

> Glory be to Him for far exalted

> is He above having a Son. To

> Him belong all things in heaven and on

> earth. And enough is

> God as a disposer of affairs. Qur'an 4:171

>

===>LIAR!

There's no "MESSIAH/CHRIST" in the Qur'an! -- L.

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Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible

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