Can they quit on their own?

[snafu]

.....................

 

On a side note, all of you that do drugs like pot etc.. don't have a leg to stand on handing out advice, its like a serial killer handing out advice to a mass murderer. But of course your drugs are different.

.

.

.

 

What’s that supposed to mean? Yes, me smoking pot is nothing like smoking crack. It’s like night and day. You should pound down a few more scotch and waters and think about what you said. I know people who have recovered from it and people that have died from this shit. I speak from experience.

[phreakwars]

I 100% endorse Marijuana as a gateway drug to help people kick the drug habit.

 

I haven't done it in over a year, but I still stand by it's potential as a withdrawl drug.

 

And, it's non addicting.

.

.

[snafu]

I 100% endorse Marijuana as a gateway drug to help people kick the drug habit.

 

I haven't done it in over a year, but I still stand by it's potential as a withdrawl drug.

 

And, it's non addicting.

.

.

 

Yes it dose. It helped me even quit drinking and cigarettes.

[Msixty]

On a side note, all of you that do drugs like pot etc.. don't have a leg to stand on handing out advice, its like a serial killer handing out advice to a mass murderer. But of course your drugs are different.

 

have you ever had coffee or a soda? then by your logic you have no 'leg to stand on' with us pot smokers, caffeine is an addictive substance with although toned down, similar effects on your system as say... coke... and looking at that 'logic' of yours, you're smoking SOMETHING.

[Msixty]

So are you disputing what I said or agreeing with it?? Because it sounds an awful lot like you are agreeing.

.

.

.

 

 

I'm displaying the error in your logic. you are trying to say i am as bad as someone who will give up their kids for a high, i am simply pointing out that by your 'logic' you would be just as bad. but you're not, and I'm not, so your logic is flawed.

[snafu]

What I am saying is this: Anyone who takes any drug should not be handing out advice to another person who is also taking drugs.

 

Any addiction: Crack, Meth, Nicotine, Caffeine etc.. is still an addiction and a indication of how much control an individual has over themselves, some may keep it to a low level, some don't, either way it is a person not totally steering their own ship, they are weak minded.

 

I never said anything directly about you or to you, you are working on the basis of your own knowledge about yourself. You are the only one who knows what you do and do not do. It seems that you feel like your doing something wrong, I suggest you go with that feeling and modify your behavior.

 

My logic is sound.

.

.

.

 

That’s bullshit. And buy your logic anybody that drinks has no leg to stand on either.

Taking other drugs might mean that that person still has an addictive behavior but if that someone has done hard drugs and quit, their testimony could be invaluable to someone who wants to quit.

They have been there, done that. I started out doing drugs when I was 14. I can tell you that having an addictive behavior, pot was a good crutch to wean off and quit harder drugs. Even alcohol. Without pot I could not have made it through the 2 years of cooking and smoking this shit up in my nightly nightmares. Yes two fucking years of pure hell.

I’ve run the streets. I know the element these people live in. So I would have to say that your logic is completely backwards.

[phreakwars]

By his logic, people should not be prescribed methadone. Yet it is widely used.

 

What about nicotine patches ??

 

It goes back to being the same thing as chewing on a carrot stick or bubble gum. It's used to take out the mental thoughts of having a cigarette.

 

When your dealing with a heavy drug like Meth, crack, heroin, coke, etc. The temptation factor is much higher then it would be with weed.

 

You'll never see anybody suck dick for a joint.

 

Since the substance does not cause those types of addictions, yet does offer an alternative to a buzz, it is almost the perfect drug.

 

Remember how weed was classified, as a Level 1 drug.

 

Level 1 drugs are those which do not have a medical purpose. It is still not illegal in the united states, or anywhere in the world for that matter to manufacture or distribute drugs. It is however illegal to distribute a drug that has been placed in that Level 1 group.

 

Hense, the fight to legalize marijuana starts with proving it has a MEDICINAL use (like help with withdrawl).

 

And sorry, but classifying it as a level one only comes from the racial fears of the drug from years ago.

 

.

.

[Jhony5]

No. Crack addicts absolutely cannot quit on their own. I know she is your friend but please, please report this for the sake of her child. I hate being a rat but this child comes first. Please, please, please do something for the child's sake. He or she does not deserve a crack addict for a mother.

 

 

Ohhhhh c'mon Phanny. Thats a fucking cop-out. I smoked crack before. Several times in the past. We bought some powder, used a spoon, a candle, a dab of water and some baking soda. Heated it while stirring just like pudding, and smoked it while cat fishing. It was fun. No one died. No one started sucking dick or stealing radios to pawn for another fix. Its not as addictive as people might lead you to believe. If you're smoking crack everyday and making a mess of your life, than FUCKING STOP IT!!! You don't need treatment. You don't need counseling. You need to fucking stop smoking so much crack. If you abuse crack, than flat out you're a piece of shit and you choose this. Its not a contagious virus. Its a habit. STOP IT! If crack didn't exist, then I fucking guarantee that these same hobo ass losers would be tanking their lives via some other form of intoxicant.

Its not the crack that ruins lives, its the people that smoke it.

 

What I am saying is this: Anyone who takes any drug should not be handing out advice to another person who is also taking drugs

 

I'd say its the opposite. Talking about narcotics when you never used them, is akin to me discussing space travel or what its like to be a cheerleader for the National Football League. I smoked pot for 20 damn years and quit cold to ensure I got custody of my child. I have license to speak about narcotics because I know alot about them.

I've smoked cocaine many many times so I know what the fuck its like. I also know you'd have to be a weak minded fool to let a dirty drug like that too dictate the quality of your life. A person that has experience abusing drugs is the best type of person to hand out advice about it. Again, my advice to you if you're smoking coke everyday.......FUCKING STOP IT!!!

[hugo]

I quit smoking marijuana by having a beer in each hand.

[Jhony5]

I quit smoking marijuana by having a beer in each hand.

 

 

I tried that. But I couldn't keep the damn things lit.

[snafu]

Thats right fool

 

Geee really? I would have never guessed:rolleyes:

 

So a prostitute should stick to hand jobs if she wants to stop being a prostitute??

 

The streets are full of shit talkers, pussy mother fuckers and homos, which one were you? or was it all three?

 

The streets..gimme a break.. Will I now be subjugated to hearing about the hard core streets? Yo man I'm from NY, LA.... Detroit city Man.. it was insane Man!! you wouldn't understand man !!.. whatever, the only reason anyone thinks anything about the streets is tough or hard is because they don't actually know shit about real violence, fuck the streets !! the so called hard streets only exist because the cops and the law keep all the so called hard street people from being wiped off the face of the planet.

 

I am not the one handing out the bullshit advice, I am the one simply pointing out the hypocrisy, my logic is sound.

 

Thats right do the drugs, get hooked on the drugs, die with the drugs. No free clinics, no free medical and no free synthetics

 

Fuck them also, same-same

 

O-yes you will, in fact Ive seen people give it up for a bag-o-weed

 

Racial fears?? like weed is..what.. Chinese or something

 

And AIDS doesn't ruin lives its the people that have sex that ruin lives.. de da de.... ok then..

 

 

Thats like me using the fact that I married a black woman and have 4 half black kids, so I should have license to use the word ****** when ever I want and because of my 21 year close association I have a special understanding and insight into what black is because I know a lot about them.... de da de.... other then those two things I agree.

.

.

.

 

All your berating still doesn

[Jhony5]

Thats like me using the fact that I married a black woman and have 4 half black kids, so I should have license to use the word ****** when ever I want and because of my 21 year close association I have a special understanding and insight into what black is because I know a lot about them.... de da de.... other then those two things I agree.

NO. No Its not. Thats not a very good metaphor.

 

I wasn't tying to poise myself as a narcotics expert. My point was simple. I find it silly when people talk about how hard it is to quit smoking crack, or any drug, when they've never smoked it. Is like criticizing a food that you've never tasted (A much better metaphor). I smoked crack. Its lame. I've heard news reporters do this, like their making excuses for the low life druggies that get hooked. With sensationalist statements like "One hit and the user is addicted". Thats what I'm talking about, and its full-on bullshit!

 

I take issue when people try and make habitual drug abuse (this includes alcohol) parallel to a disease. ADDICTION IS NOT A DISEASE! You can't catch alcoholism. This is fucking politically correct hogwash.

Yes, your body can become physically dependent on a substance. However this does not equate to a "disease". Ultimately its the mind that controls the body and what the body ingests. When I stopped getting high, FUCK YA I was a little antsy the first few days. Watching my friends smoke was difficult at first. BUT....I didn't cave. My "disease" didn't take me down.

 

For those of you that haven't smoked cocaine, allow me to illustrate what its like. When you take a hit it feels really really really good. Weeeeeeeeee. I'm talkin really really good. But, unlike marijuana or alcohol, it goes away in less than 30 seconds. I mean really really fast. Too make it worse, the euphoria is suddenly replaced by a dark empty feeling. Like your stuck in the bottom of a ten foot hole and theres no way out save for one......another hit. Which is why the OP described her friend sitting in the bathroom for a long long time. Its not like weed. You don't take a few hits and your good to go. You have to keep chasing that dragon if you want to keep the high. Any person with self control should see this as an irrational pursuit.

Its like really great sex with a girl that punches you in the dick after you cum. A concept that intelligent and mentally strong people can grasp as unwelcoming and detrimental.

[snafu]

......................

 

For those of you that haven't smoked cocaine, allow me to illustrate what its like. When you take a hit it feels really really really good. Weeeeeeeeee. I'm talkin really really good. But, unlike marijuana or alcohol, it goes away in less than 30 seconds. I mean really really fast. Too make it worse, the euphoria is suddenly replaced by a dark empty feeling. Like your stuck in the bottom of a ten foot hole and theres no way out save for one......another hit. Which is why the OP described her friend sitting in the bathroom for a long long time. Its not like weed. You don't take a few hits and your good to go. You have to keep chasing that dragon if you want to keep the high. Any person with self control should see this as an irrational pursuit.

Its like really great sex with a girl that punches you in the dick after you cum. A concept that intelligent and mentally strong people can grasp as unwelcoming and detrimental.

 

Perfect analogy. The 30 second thing. And you spend the rest of your life trying to catch that feeling again.

 

But it might have been easy for you to walk away. It wasn't so easy for me.

[Jhony5]

Perfect analogy. The 30 second thing. And you spend the rest of your life trying to catch that feeling again.

 

But it might have been easy for you to walk away. It wasn't so easy for me.

 

Well ya know, I suppose you're right. Intoxicants effect people in different ways. Like me with alcohol. I feel like I've been poisoned when I drink the sauce. Other people love the stuff. Sometimes it boggles my mind when I hear people say they don't smoke weed because it makes them feel sick.

 

But as they say, to each his own. I suppose cocaine is no different. It just so happens that of all the friends I've done coke with, none of us really gave a shit whether we did it again.

 

Its just hard for me to understand how people who habitually use cocaine, can't see what its doing to them. I lost a good friend to pills. Hes not dead. Hes just lost. When we were about 19, myself and his other friends would tell him continuously what was going to happen if he kept taking pills everyday. Eventually he degraded into a bizarre and warped person. Haven't spoken to him in years.

[manicmonday]

Well ya know, I suppose you're right. Intoxicants effect people in different ways. Like me with alcohol. I feel like I've been poisoned when I drink the sauce. Other people love the stuff. Sometimes it boggles my mind when I hear people say they don't smoke weed because it makes them feel sick.

 

But as they say, to each his own. I suppose cocaine is no different. It just so happens that of all the friends I've done coke with, none of us really gave a shit whether we did it again.

 

Its just hard for me to understand how people who habitually use cocaine, can't see what its doing to them. I lost a good friend to pills. Hes not dead. Hes just lost. When we were about 19, myself and his other friends would tell him continuously what was going to happen if he kept taking pills everyday. Eventually he degraded into a bizarre and warped person. Haven't spoken to him in years.

 

I think you should also know that any disease can't be caught. Diabetes, bi-polar, any number of things, alcholism, are disease, and they can't be "caught". AIDS can be caught, but it's a virus. Mislabeled and mis-talked about. But still a virus. It drives me crazy when people talk about things with the wrong verbage and labeling.

 

And from your bird's eye view of addiction, you have proved nothing. Looking at the stats any number of reliable health organizations, which I don't have time for right now, would prove you wrong in a nano second. Just because you didn't have a problem with hard core drugs doesn't mean true addiction doesn't exsist. I don't have a penis, but that doesn't mean they don't exsist.

[Jhony5]

I think you should also know that any disease can't be caught. Diabetes, bi-polar, any number of things, alcoholism, are disease, and they can't be "caught". AIDS can be caught, but it's a virus. Mislabeled and mis-talked about. But still a virus. It drives me crazy when people talk about things with the wrong verbage and labeling.

 

And from your bird's eye view of addiction, you have proved nothing. Looking at the stats any number of reliable health organizations, which I don't have time for right now, would prove you wrong in a nano second. Just because you didn't have a problem with hard core drugs doesn't mean true addiction doesn't exsist. I don't have a penis, but that doesn't mean they don't exsist.

 

Let me put it to you like this. ADDICTION IS THE ONLY DISEASE THAT SOMEONE CAN DECIDE NOT TO HAVE ANYMORE! You can't decide not to have diabetes. You can't wake up and decide to quit having AIDS.

 

 

Bi-polar is more akin to addiction then any actual disease. Because its better labeled as a "condition". A disease is a sickness, with real fucking symptoms. What are the symptoms of alcoholism? Blurred vision. Slurred speech. Impaired motor skills. Nausea. How does one acquire these symptoms? By being drunk. Do people wake up and say to themselves "oh noes, I'm drunk again. I'm having another drunkenness outbreak"? FUCK NO! You get drunk by having no self control and sticking a bottle of booze in your mouth and drinking it.

 

Statistics by health organizations are skewed and biased toward influencing people to feel they have no personal fault for their alcoholism because they have a disease. Thusly they should report immediately to their local clinic and pay $$$ to get themselves better. A perpetuation of the profit margin for the national alcoholism treatment centers of America. Ya, their all connected and they want you to believe you need their help to battle your "disease". Its a business.

[manicmonday]

Let me put it to you like this. ADDICTION IS THE ONLY DISEASE THAT SOMEONE CAN DECIDE NOT TO HAVE ANYMORE! You can't decide not to have diabetes. You can't wake up and decide to quit having AIDS.

 

Show my one reliable source, besides you saying so and your buddies waking up and saying so, that addiction is something you wake up and not have anymore? I have my Masters in Psychology, as a refresher to you as you have been gone awhile, so find me ONE, reliable source beside you say so, because it is a disease, it has symptoms and is treatable.

 

 

Bi-polar is more akin to addiction then any actual disease. Because its better labeled as a "condition".

 

Newsflash buddy, we aren't back in the 1800's where we talk about bi-polar in hushed tones and use words like "conditions". It's not an addiction, by your definition where one wakes up and says, hey, I'm not bi-polar anymore. I have no more syptoms, I'm cured. Doesn't work like that.

 

A disease is a sickness, with real fucking symptoms. What are the symptoms of alcoholism? Blurred vision. Slurred speech. Impaired motor skills. Nausea. How does one acquire these symptoms? By being drunk. Do people wake up and say to themselves "oh noes, I'm drunk again. I'm having another drunkenness outbreak"? FUCK NO! You get drunk by having no self control and sticking a bottle of booze in your mouth and drinking it.

No, but in saying all this, you show your lack of understanding of the mind. You don't have a clear understanding of how the body and body are intertwined. You are on the same par with nazzfucker, who I have chose to ignore, because of his ignorance and inability to learn farther.

 

Statistics by health organizations are skewed and biased toward influencing people to feel they have no personal fault for their alcoholism because they have a disease. Thusly they should report immediately to their local clinic and pay $$$ to get themselves better. A perpetuation of the profit margin for the national alcoholism treatment centers of America. Ya, their all connected and they want you to believe you need their help to battle your "disease". Its a business.

Conspiracy theorist much? Been talking to builder?

[Jhony5]

Show my one reliable source, besides you saying so and your buddies waking up and saying so, that addiction is something you wake up and not have anymore?

 

PFFFT!

 

We all have addictions, lady.

 

Caffeine. Porn. Food. Sex. Alcohol. Adrenaline. Sex. Marijuana. Theft. Sex.

 

You escaped my point entirely. There is no known disease in which one can decide for themselves not to have the symptoms of said disease.

 

Its a fucking cop-out. "I can't help it....I have a disease. The treatment center says so". Ya your sick alright. Sick in your fucking head because your a weak minded fuck that can't say no to something thats obviously destroying you.

 

Its not the addiction itself that can be classified as a sickness. Its the mental defect called LACK OF SELF CONTROLISM.

 

it has symptoms and is treatable.

 

Treatable? HAHAHAHAHAHA OO AND HA HA! The one fucking medical sickness thats "treatable" by simply deciding not to be sick anymore.

 

Newsflash buddy, we aren't back in the 1800's where we talk about bi-polar in hushed tones and use words like "conditions". It's not an addiction, by your definition where one wakes up and says, hey, I'm not bi-polar anymore. I have no more symptoms, I'm cured. Doesn't work like that.

You can call it bi-polar. You can call it a ham sandwich if ya want. I call it....being a fucking nut job.

 

No, but in saying all this, you show your lack of understanding of the mind. You don't have a clear understanding of how the body and mind are intertwined.

I understand this perfect. What I said was spot-on. There is no such thing as an involuntary reflex that causes one to drink alcohol. Its a decision. A decision that can be controlled. PERIOD!

 

Conspiracy theorist much? Been talking to builder?

 

Its not a conspiracy. Its a business. Do you honestly think those multi-million dollar treatment facilities/companies want people to think they have it within themselves to stop drinking? Do you honestly think they dream of a day when they have cured all of this "disease" and now they have no job?

 

Why then? Why has alcoholism been deemed a medical condition by medical professionals? Ill tell ya why. INSURANCE!

 

INSURANCE

 

INSURANCE

 

INSURANCE = CASH FLOW

 

By recognizing addiction as a disease, they have secured their ability to bring in millions of dollars annually. All paid for by insurance.

[manicmonday]

PFFFT!

 

 

 

 

Treatable? HAHAHAHAHAHA OO AND HA HA! The one fucking medical sickness thats "treatable" by simply deciding not to be sick anymore.

 

You can call it bi-polar. You can call it a ham sandwich if ya want. I call it....being a fucking nut job.

 

 

And with this you prove that you are a uneducated lackey who refuses to learn anything but what his buddies tells him.

 

Thank you for telling me now, so I don't waste my time.

[Jhony5]

And with this you prove that you are a uneducated lackey who refuses to learn anything but what his buddies tells him.

 

Thank you for telling me now, so I don't waste my time.

 

 

Admitting defeat already? That was too easy.

 

I want a better opponent.

 

This is a fucking debate forum. Not a friendly chat room. If ya want to make buddies with people and talk nice, go to myspace.com. Don't act like an easily offended woman and get all upset. Fucking debate, take the heat, or get you sweet little ass outta here. This is not the place for weak hearted debaters.

 

Instead of countering my point like an intelligent person, you want to try and insult my intelligence.

 

I noticed the only part of my previous post you choose to respond to was the one part in which I was just joking. Lighten up girl.

 

I know nothing about bi-polar syndrome, nor is that what we are discussing. What we are discussing is the classification of addiction as a disease. I say its not a sickness. Its a choice. Yes, if someone inundates their body with a chemical than physical dependency will result. There will be withdrawal symptoms. Because the abuser CHOSE to make himself sick this way. However, after a few days or possibly weeks of sobriety, the body is rid of its detoxification symptoms. Any relapse is caused by the individuals CHOICE to succumb to urge. We aren't talking about a virus. We aren't talking about a bacterial infestation. We aren't talking about an actual physical anomaly causing symptomatic responses. We are talking about people that haven't the courage nor the desire to thwart their addiction. People get high because it makes them feel good. NOT because they are actually sick. Convince me of otherwise.

 

Why don't ya gather up your considerable training in the field of psychology and use it to discuss what I had to say about the tie between the classification of addiction as a disease and the benefit, both to the "patient" and the treatment facility, of this classification as being a way to garnish insurance benefits?

[manicmonday]

 

This is a fucking debate forum. Not a friendly chat room. If ya want to make buddies with people and talk nice, go to myspace.com. Don't act like an easily offended woman and get all upset.

 

You don't know me. I'm not upset, offended or hurt.

 

Fucking debate, take the heat, or get you sweet little ass outta here. This is not the place for weak hearted debaters.

I asked you to bring facts, and you didn't. You stated your position, and then left. What's to debate after that? I can't refute you if you don't bring facts to the table in the first place. Isn't that how it works? I'm just a little woman, you might need to teach me.

 

Instead of countering my point like an intelligent person, you want to try and insult my intelligence.

It wasn't hard to do:p

 

I noticed the only part of my previous post you choose to respond to was the one part in which I was just joking. Lighten up girl.

Do your research, I don't joke about mental disease ever. Ever. You called it a nut job. Conversation over. It will happen every time. I didn't go to school for 6 years just in Psychology alone to listen to your psychobabble say "nut job". That's not a debate. It's also personal. I don't care if it's funny, if it's meant to be a joke, if you think I should lighten up. It's not funny now, it will never be funny. Read some of my posts on here. I have a sense of humor. Read me in shout. I have a sense of humor. Joke about mental disorders, diseases and "nut jobs" and the conversation is over. Debate over.

 

 

 

Why don't ya gather up your considerable training in the field of psychology and use it to discuss what I had to say about the tie between the classification of addiction as a disease and the benefit, both to the "patient" and the treatment facility, of this classification as being a way to garnish insurance benefits?

So far, Mr Jhony, your debate has been that addicted people are just using politically correct jargon for insurance companies to make money. I haven't seen you offer any evidence to this besides "me and my buddies". I asked you for some evidence to back you up, but you blew me off. But I again ask you for some. Am I up to speed with your inexperienced, uneducated, tunnel vision, if it didn't happen to me it can't happen to any body else train of thought?

[Jhony5]

I couldn't have said this better myself. Well, I guess I kinda did.

 

Alcoholism: A disease of speculation

"In 1976, the writer Ivan Illich warned in the book, Limits to Medicine, that 'the medical establishment has become a major threat to health'. At the time, he was dismissed as a maverick, but a quarter of a century later, even the medical establishment is prepared to admit that he may well be right. (Anthony Browne, April 14, 2002, the Observer)"

 

History and science have shown us that the existence of the disease of alcoholism is pure speculation. Just saying alcoholism is a disease, doesn't make it true. Nevertheless, medical professionals and American culture lovingly embraced the disease concept and quickly applied it to every possible deviant behavior from alcohol abuse to compulsive lecturing. The disease concept was a panacea for many failing medical institutions adding billions of dollars to the industry and leading to a prompt evolution of pop-psychology. Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual.

 

The disease concept oozes into every crevice of our society perpetuating harmful misinformation that hurts the very people it was intended to help. It is a backwards situation where the assumptions of a few were adopted as fact by the medical profession, devoid of supporting evidence. And soon after, the disease concept was accepted by the general public. With this said, visiting the history of the disease concept gives us all a better understanding of how and why all of this happened.

 

The disease concept originated in the 1800s with a fellow by the name of Dr. Benjamin Rush. He believed alcoholics were diseased and used the idea to promote his prohibitionist political platform. He also believed that dishonesty, political dissention and being of African-American decent were diseases. The "disease concept" was used throughout the late 1800s and early 1900s by prohibitionists and those involved in the Temperance Movement to further a political agenda. Prior to this time, the term alcoholic did not exist. Alcohol was freely consumed, but drunkenness was not tolerated. Many sociologists contribute its non-existence to the very stigma that the disease concept removes. In fact, "Despite an ardent search, however, temperance adherents never identified an account of a drunkard before the 1800s who reported that he has lost control of his drinking." (Stanton Peele "Diseasing of America" pg. 37) "Drunkenness was not so much seen as the cause of deviant behavior-in particular crime and violence- as it was construed as a sign that an individual was willing to engage in such behavior." (H.G. Levine, "The Good Creature of God and the Demon Rum," in Alcohol and Disinhibitition, eds. R. Room and G. Collins.) During this period of time social ties and family played a much more influential role in an individual's life. Therefore, deviant behaviors were undesirable and less likely to occur. It was not until industrialization began, when the importance of social and family ties diminished, that alcoholism became a problem. We now live in a society that encourages binge drinking as a social norm, but at the same time, we live in a society that discourages it.

 

The "recovery" community's adoption of the disease concept began with an early AA member named Marty Mann. Her efforts, combined with a somewhat dubious scientist named E.M. Jellinek, began national acceptance of the disease concept. It was Jellinek's "scientific" study that opened the door for the medical communities' support. E.M. Jellinek's study was funded by the efforts of Marty Mann and R. Brinkley Smithers. And, like so many other circumstances involving Jellinek and Marty Mann, the study was bogus if not outright fraudulent. The surveys he based his conclusions on were from a hand picked group of alcoholics. There were 158 questionnaires handed out and 60 of them were suspiciously not included. His conclusion was based on less than 100 hand picked alcoholics chosen by Marty Mann. Ms. Mann, of course, had a personal agenda to remove the stigma about the homeless and dirty alcoholic or "bowery drunk" in order to gain financial support from the wealthy. By removing the stigma, the problem becomes one of the general population, which would then include the wealthy. The first step was Jellinek publishing his findings in his book "The Stages of Alcoholism" which was based on the selective study. Later, E.M. Jellinek was asked by Yale University to refute his own findings. He complied. E.M. Jellinek's Stages of Alcoholism did not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

 

Early in the 20th Century, the validity of the disease concept was often debated in medical circles. However, in 1956 the American Medical Association (AMA) proclaimed alcoholism an "illness." Then, in 1966, the AMA proclaimed alcoholism a disease. The decision was wrapped in controversy. Historically, Marty Mann had her hand in much of this and manipulated information and doctors into agreeing with the disease concept. Marty Mann used her position as founder of the NCA (National Counsel for Alcoholism) to promote the disease concept through Jellinek and a somewhat clandestine relationship with the founder of the NIAAA (National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse) whose founder worked with Marty Mann during the institute's early development. The founder of NIAAA (R. Brinkley Smithers) was a major contributor to and promoter of the disease concept. It was his money that actually funded Jellinek's work at Yale. Smithers was also responsible for gaining insurance coverage for patients in treatment (hence the 28 day program). Smithers was certainly not altruistic in his efforts. At that time he had already launched a treatment program for which he was lobbying for insurance payments. Acceptance by the medical community was the only way this could happen; alcoholism had to be a medical problem in order for medical insurance to pay for programs. We can see the influence of these "advances" everyday in treatment programs. Today the treatment industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, with insurance paying the lion's share of the costs.

 

While it can be argued that Smithers's efforts played an important role, it was Jellinek's study that was such a monumental turning point for the supporters of the disease concept. The current disease paradigm was, in part, developed and promulgated by Jellinek and various other partial participants with personal agendas. Today, Jellinek's "Stages of the Alcoholic" is still widely used to diagnose substance abusers. But, these stages are based on a corrupt study that the author, himself, later refuted. Jellinek not only published a fraudulent study, he defrauded members of his academic community, and apparently lied about his educational background to gain acceptance. Nonetheless, it was Jellinek's "Stages of the Alcoholic" that led to diagnosing alcoholism as a disease and eventually to the medical acceptance of alcoholism as a disease. Astoundingly, the inception of the current disease and treatment paradigm is based on fraud.

 

While many advocate for its benefits, the disease concept has proven to be far more damaging to the substance abuser then anyone could have predicted. Therapists claim the disease concept helps the patient to understand the seriousness of [his/her] problems. But in reality, this idea has backfired. The disease concept strips the substance abuser of responsibility. A disease cannot be cured by force of will; therefore, adding the medical label transfers the responsibility from the abuser to caregivers. Inevitably the abusers become unwilling victims, and just as inevitably they take on that role. In retrospect then, the disease concept has effectively increased alcoholism and drug abuse. Furthermore, its only benefit has been vast monetary reward for the professionals' and governmental agencies responsible for providing recovery services. Specifically, it has not offered a solution for those attempting to stop abusive alcohol and drug use.

 

Baldwin Research Institute, Inc. interviewed 545 self-acknowledged substance abusers. Out of the 545, 454 of them had been to at least one conventional, disease-based treatment facility prior to the interview. Some had been to as many as 20 or more conventional, disease-based treatment facilities prior to the interview. Of the total 545 substance abusers, 542 never thought they had a disease. Rather, they thought they had made poor choices regarding their substance use. Three thought they had a disease, and it should be noted that those three were continuing to abuse substances. For those who did not think they had a disease, more than 400 of them falsely stated during conventional treatment that they believed they had a disease. The pressure to conform to the treatment rhetoric and the built-in excuse to relapse were the primary reasons given by treatment clients for saying they had a disease even when they believed wholeheartedly that it was not true. Many substance abusers embrace any excuse to be insincere and abdicate responsibility for themselves, even if they know in their heart it's a lie.

 

 

 

 

This article proves that its not just "me and my stoned buddies" forming this opinion. This article backs up EXACTLY what I fucking told you to begin with. Its a business and your a part of it. Thusly blinding you to the real nature of pseudo-science.

 

http://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

 

Go ahead and think that because I didn't attend a university, that I'm unintelligent. Personally I'd feel embarrassed to get verbally raped by a high-school drop-out,

[snafu]

You know, I am going to have to go out on a limb here and agree with J5 on most of his points ( except the glorification & justification of weed)

 

ADDICTIONS:

An addiction is not a diseases it is a choice. Those with addictions give into "consuming" the substance they are addicted to. If they had no access to the substance they would no longer have issues with that substance. Unlike a REAL disease, the symptoms and negative effects of an addiction simply go away after the user stop using, and strangely enough their health gets better also. addictions are not a disease. and neither is obesity

 

DIABETES:

The majority of diabetes cases are brought on by the individual life style choices, it is karma, natures pay back. So in some ways diabetes is also a choice. The individual chose to live a certain way and the consequence was diabetes. Natures just desert.

 

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I'm gonna agree with J5 on the glorification of pot and his interpretation of addiction. However I will disagree with Nazz partly about diabetes. Children are born with type one diabetes. It wasn't induced by a bad life style. Although some diabetes can be treated and prevented, it is hereditary. Age and your ansesrty are two thirds of the cause of type two diebetes. Overweight is the other third.

[smutt butt]

I guess i was a "good" crack smoker. Way back in '88 we used to cook our own "crack". I would smoke it that night, run out, "jones" for a while, wake up the next day and not think anything about it until i bought some more coke a month or 2 later.

[snafu]

I guess i was a "good" crack smoker. Way back in '88 we used to cook our own "crack". I would smoke it that night, run out, "jones" for a while, wake up the next day and not think anything about it until i bought some more coke a month or 2 later.

 

I remember the cooking was a high in it's self. Watching it melt down into and oil and you swirl just at the right time.