Jesus in the Glorious Qur'an

[Mr X]

''Mohammed, would have had some knowledge on the bible prior to his supposed encounter with Gabriel.How would have he known what was good or evil?...angel versus devil. about who God was..or who Gabriel was.

 

The point I was making(sorry if I explained poorly) was that there were christian sects around saudi...mohammed even though illiterate could have been taught "verbally" some passages of the bible.The bible clearly warns of false prophets and angels of light..who are really angels of darkness...in other words ,e.g satan appearing in the form of gabriel trying to decieve you.

 

There is one way to check if Gabriel was really Gabriel...is asking the question "Is Jesus the messiah..the Son of God?"

 

Satan would have to have said "NO"...The real Gabriel would have answered "YES"

 

Mohammed did not ask this question.Therefore he does not know who he really is talking to.''

 

Muhammed(pbuh) used to go to the cave of Hira to seek some peace of mind.

He did not understand why people worshipped images of their own manufacture.He did not like the ignorance people lived in(drinking,and using women and discarding them,slavery).Though he knew that there must be a purpose for this life,it was hard for him to figure out.He wanted guidance more than anything,probably why God chose him.God sent Gabriel to answer his questions and to guide him to his Creator.Gabriel revealed the first verses of the Qu'ran.

Jesus is not the son of God.The point you're trying to make is still beyond me.Honey even satan knows that Jesus is not the son of God,but makes you believe so to deviate you from the right path.But that's just what I believe.

Gabriel would have never answered YES!We have different ideas of Gabriel so I doubt this argument will get anywhere.

There were no christian sects in saudi,they were pushed out.Idolatry was the main practice in saudi.

 

AIG, if Jesus is not the Son of God you can just forget passages in the old testament...and the whole of the new testament that relate to him(Jesus)...because that is what Mohammeds teachings about.

 

 

Let me explain it this way..God/Jehovah sends an Angel(Jesus),but this Angel has to be made in to flesh and not only that..he has be born in the house of David...that means He has to be born to a women related to the house of David(I'm referring to prophesy concerning the Messiah)...Gabriel warns mary and joseph about her new born baby.He has to be raised in the teachings of the Torah and explain and show the jewish people that a new covenant is replacing the old...he(jesus) is given the wisdom and power of God ...anyway God foresee's the hostile reaction of the Jewish sanhedrin and writes in the old testament what is to become of Jesus...as jesus is to be become the sacrificial lamb...and intermediary with God...Jesus is Gods most trusted Son...as in heaven he sits at the right side.When Jesus dies on the cross as prophesied and his spirit departs to heaven...he still visits his apostles..as they now lack faith after his death...and need reassurance that Jesus is live and with them in spirit.

 

As for christian sects in saudi...I was trying to tell you that mohammed had contact with christians and plagarised from the bible.He would have to have knowledge prior to meeting supposed Gabriel.Did Mohammed know who Gabriel was?

 

AIG..If you stop reading the Qur'an as a commentary on the bible...old/new testament...you would understand the point I am making.But that depends if you understand spiritual concepts and biblical history.

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

Let me explain it this way..God/Jehovah sends an Angel(Jesus),but this Angel has to be made in to flesh and not only that..he has be born in the house of David...that means He has to be born to a women related to the house of David(I'm referring to prophesy concerning the Messiah)...Gabriel warns mary and joseph about her new born baby.He has to be raised in the teachings of the Torah and explain and show the jewish people that a new covenant is replacing the old...he(jesus) is given the wisdom and power of God ...anyway God foresee's the hostile reaction of the Jewish sanhedrin and writes in the old testament what is to become of Jesus...as jesus is to be become the sacrificial lamb...and intermediary with God...Jesus is Gods most trusted Son...as in heaven he sits at the right side.When Jesus dies on the cross as prophesied and his spirit departs to heaven...he still visits his apostles..as they now lack faith after his death...and need reassurance that Jesus is live and with them in spirit.

 

Ok Mr X,you've confused me even more.Now Jesus was an angel?

What the hell should I believe when each of you are telling me diiferent things.I honestly wish to understand but you guys are doing a poor job of it.

What was Jesus to you? God?man?angel?son

Even your religion has confused itself!

Why does the single aspect of One God scare you so much?Why is it so unbelievable that God Almighty cannot have the same attributes as us?

[Mr X]

Oh..ok AIG

 

 

btw there are folk who believe it this way...like me

 

God=Father/Jehovah The Holy Ghost is the extension of his power

Jesus=Son of God/Angel/Messiah/the word of God

Gabriel=Son of God/Angel

Lucifer/Satan=Son of God/Angel/Devil

 

Jesus is not God...but the Son of God(angel)....they are two different distinct individuals.Yes I dissagree with other christian sects that say Jesus is God...that does not make sense..as Jesus would not have prayed on his knees if he was God...and conversed with himself...really ridiculous..they kind of make him a schizophrenic with an identity crisis.They don't understand that Jesus was teaching them the concept of telepathy(I don't know a better word than that).

 

 

I'll end it for now

 

This is why I put this in(see above quote)...as I don't know about MRIH and others understanding of the bible....the above is how I understand it...I was warning you that this is my belief and interpretation...and that you were wasting your time with arguing with me about the trinity.BECAUSE I"M NOT OF THE TRINITARIAN BELIEF e.g Jesus is God(which is wrong)

 

 

If Jesus is the messiah..he would have existed before time as an angel..who else could he have been in Gods unseen kingdom...the bible says he was the Son of God...which makes sense..as God is quoted as saying"This is my only begotten Son...of whom I'm am well pleased"

 

Jesus is an Angel made in the flesh...a messenger of God Jehovah

 

He was "the word of God" meaning God spoke through him

 

The telepathy part of the quote..was an explanation of this.

 

Ok AIG,I'll put it to you this way....If I could send my thoughts to you(telepathically) and you speak my very words...does that make you me? No it does not!!!..thats why jesus was trying to teach these idiots(Jews and later some christians) it in parables...because it was like trying to teach a bunch of neanderthals advanced spiritual concepts(which is really simple).

 

That is why Jesus is Known as "the word of God"(logos) Gods mouth piece.

 

The messiah can not teach anything unless it came from God...that would mean the messiah would have to be one with God(linked telepathically spiritually) e.g speak the mind of God...this does not mean he(Jesus) is God, but a messenger or spokesmen...where does the message come from?...it would have to be taught and transmitted to Jesus(he often communicates with the father)..just like the prophets.

 

Their are passages in the new testament that some Jews mistakenly thought Jesus as a prophet...like saying he was prophet elijah returned(Technically he can be construed as one)..but he was foretold messiah...the jews of the time were of the old testament and under Roman occupation so they thought that the messiah(jesus) was coming to free them..if they read the old testament concerning the messiah properly..that was not the messiahs mission.

 

In the old testament God says that the messiah will come out of the line of David.Thats why there is a geneology in the new testament to prove that indeed that mary and joseph were from the tribe of Judah(Davids tribe).

 

 

 

Um... hope that helps

[builder]

Ok Mr X,you've confused me even more.Now Jesus was an angel?

What the hell should I believe when each of you are telling me diiferent things.I honestly wish to understand but you guys are doing a poor job of it.

What was Jesus to you? God?man?angel?son

Even your religion has confused itself!

Why does the single aspect of One God scare you so much?Why is it so unbelievable that God Almighty cannot have the same attributes as us?

 

I'll weigh in here. It's getting interesting.

 

"What was Jesus to you?" Good question, AIG.

 

To my mind, Jesus was a carpenter, just like me. A builder and creator.

Unlike me, Jesus had no power tools. Hence, He would have been built like a brick shithouse, with hands of steel, and shoulders of muscle. Completely opposite to the effete depictions of Him found in Catholic idolatry and images.

 

Up to the age of 29 (I think) he laboured for a living, working with his hands.

 

He also saw through the corruption and greed that passed for a "religion" back then. Funny how times change? Not.

 

Remember how Jesus stormed into the "temple" and overturned all those money-changing tables, and furiously vented his spleen on those "priests"?

 

Remember how that tax-collector copped such a bagging off Jesus, that whenever he saw Jesus coming down the road, he would climb a tree to hide?

 

A Roman-paid tax-collector shits his pants at the sight of this Jesus bloke, and avoids him like the plague, eventually giving up his position to follow Jesus?

 

To me, Jesus was one pissed-off mofo, and the people who followed him did not do so because he turned the other cheek, and humbled himself before the established mores. They followed him because he had the guts to stand up to arseholes, including corrupt leaders of the church, and he was big and mean enough to put the fear of God Himself into anyone he chose to target.

 

Why was he killed? Tall poppy syndrome. He started a people's action group that was destabilising the gov, and the church. Simple shit really. It's still happening today.

 

Don't be thinking Jesus was a malnourished feeble, with shining puppy-dog eyes. He was a fierce, menacing, take-no-shit, kinda bloke, with a stare that could melt your resolve, and make you think about tossing away all of your belongings, just to tag along in his wake.

 

My two cents.

[Mr X]

hahahaha builder, that really helps...that was more like fiddy cents worth.

[builder]

hahahaha builder, that really helps...that was more like fiddy cents worth.

 

fiddy cents? Don't get me started now. I cringe at how the churches portray this bloke now.

 

Remember this one too. Jesus carried his own cross. It was made from hardwood 6 inches square, 12 feet long and 5 wide (roughly) It possibly would have weighed 300 pounds.

 

Could the skinny, kindly, namby-pamby Jesus have lugged that shit?

 

http://www.rayandtrixie.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jesusred7.jpg

 

I don't think so. I think he was more like this one.

 

[attach=full]171[/attach]

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

Oh my! Thanks boys that really helps.

Mr X I agree with you on something that you believe.Jesus was not God but he was a messanger of God.He spoke the words of God to the people,but was definately not God.Although I still don't believe he was an angel or the son of God.I believe he was just a man and a Prophet of God.

 

Builder I have no idea if Jesus was the incredible hulk that you describe him to be,but I also doubt he was as feeble as they make him out to be in their pictures.

[WildBaldMonkey]

I'm not trying to get into a huge debate here but, I am of the Trinitarian belief for these reasons,

 

Daniel 7:13-14

 

Mark 2:3-12

 

2 Corinthians 5:21

 

Colossians 2:9

 

There are more if anyone is interested.

[Mr X]

I'm not trying to get into a huge debate here but, I am of the Trinitarian belief for these reasons,

 

Daniel 7:13-14

 

Mark 2:3-12

 

2 Corinthians 5:21

 

Colossians 2:9

 

There are more if anyone is interested.

 

 

Yeah I thought my post would bring out the trinitarians...so ok(excuse me AIG ,take a break)

 

Daniel 7:13-14(NIV)

"In my vision at night I looked,and there before me was like the son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven.He approached the ancient of days and was led in to his presence.He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all peoples,nations and men of every language worshipped him

His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

Question:Who is the"ancient of days"?...It sez also "...and was led to his presence"..um who's presence?(emphasis on "his")

 

Ancient of days ="...led into his presence" this means the"ancient of days is a "he"="his" thats two different people present....how can I approach myself or be led to myself?(thats if you believe Jesus is God)

 

"He was given authority,glory and sovereign power...." question:Who gave him[Jesus] authority? who is the giver?

 

2 Corinthians5:21(NIV)

God made him who had no sin to be a sin for us,so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

 

It sez "GOD MADE HIM.."...not God made himself..

 

Collossians 2:9 (NIV)

For in christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form

 

christ means anointed...who anointed him?...man or angel or God...or himself?

Jesus the anointed one was given wisdom and power of God..evident in the miracles and raising of lazarus but used it sparingly and relied on reasoning with the Jewish scholars.

 

I won't quote the other as it's basically saying "given authority etc"

 

Yes please quote some more WBM

 

Btw WBM If Jesus is God..then why did he bow down on his knees to pray to God in heaven(mt of olives)..if he is God himself? God on bended knee?

 

What is with the chit chat between God and son if they are both the same person? don't you find that a little crazy?

[Mr X]

Oh my! Thanks boys that really helps.

Mr X I agree with you on something that you believe.Jesus was not God but he was a messanger of God.He spoke the words of God to the people,but was definately not God.Although I still don't believe he was an angel or the son of God.I believe he was just a man and a Prophet of God.

 

Builder I have no idea if Jesus was the incredible hulk that you describe him to be,but I also doubt he was as feeble as they make him out to be in their pictures.

 

Yes AIG,but that does not let you off the hook hahahahaha

 

The old covenant that was for the Jews was conditional on them upholding God statutes...but the Jews rebelled and God dissolved it with the new covenant...e.g where are the levites(the priest hood) that were in charge of the burnt offerings etc? where is the Temple of Soloman?..its a long story...but The jews of today i.e Israel...cannot be all from the tribe of Judah or the House of David...where is ephaim...benjamin...levi....naphtali the other tribes etc etc etc.

 

Thats where the messiah comes in...notice AIG...it's called "the new testament" Yes jesus is also known as "the son of man" because now he is in the flesh...in the line of "the house of David"..I'm referring to prophecy.

 

Anyway the Jews are a stiffnecked people(Gods words not mine)..they are really Gods problem...they are better understood if you read the old testament..I'd rather leave them alone.

 

You know people that say"The Jews Killed Jesus" hahaha a big duh on their part..they were suppose to..what do think prophecy is about?

 

If they did'nt kill Jesus(in flesh not spirit)..God would have been a liar.

 

 

If you don't understand what I've just typed..I might as well talk to the trees(fascinating really)...read the bible AIG with an open mind...

 

I'll get to mohammed some other time.

[builder]

Oh my! Thanks boys that really helps.

Mr X I agree with you on something that you believe.Jesus was not God but he was a messanger of God.He spoke the words of God to the people,but was definately not God.Although I still don't believe he was an angel or the son of God.I believe he was just a man and a Prophet of God.

 

I concur. I believe that greatness is thrust upon people by lesser individuals who have a plan, but lack direction. Harking back to my last coupla posts, Jesus was a natural leader simply because of his attitude, his size and strength, and his understanding of human nature.

 

He quite simply took shit from no one. Think about this. An angry throng of maybe one hundred are preparing to stone someone to death. They are hyped, and armed, and keen to see some blood. Jesus romps in, and calls it off. How did he do that? Was it some perceived greatness about the man? Or was he such a big mean mofo, that whoever cast that first stone would be his next conquest?

 

Please bear with me here. We are talking about a time when stoning to death saved the courts considerable time and money, and was not only not frowned upon, but clearly encouraged by the Romans as "justice by the people, for the people".

 

So how could one man walk into such a scene, and call a halt to proceedings, unless he was clearly one not to mess with?

 

Was he the Messiah? If he was, then how come he was celebrated at birth, and forgotten for 29 years? His public life lasted only 3 years. I mean fame can be fleeting, but martyrdom lasts millennia? Was there no other in the history of christianity with any balls? Jesus had the balls to buck the establishment, and criticise the church leaders. That is why he is still respected. Did he heal anyone? Who knows? He was so popular at that time that anyone who managed to actually get near him would have felt ecstatic.

 

Builder I have no idea if Jesus was the incredible hulk that you describe him to be,but I also doubt he was as feeble as they make him out to be in their pictures.

 

He was no feeble. The bible has been cleaned up, and the bullshit spread about this great activist and insightful man is a disgrace to his memory.

 

The other thing that pisses me off is, his death was in vain. His memory has been hijacked and used for purposes he did not die for. He had no intention of placing a guilt trip on anyone.

 

Christianity is full of guilt trips, idolatry, paganism, and outright deceipt.

 

I'm builder, and I'm disgusted.

 

Late edit: Money drives the church, which is what pissed Jesus off in the first place. The very reason why he convinced his followers to give up everything they had to tag along. He did not ask you to give all of your shit to him. He did not ask for tithings. He did not recognise wealth as equalling anything other than what wealth stands for; greed.

[WildBaldMonkey]

Yeah I thought my post would bring out the trinitarians...so ok(excuse me AIG ,take a break)

 

Daniel 7:13-14(NIV)

"In my vision at night I looked,and there before me was like the son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven.He approached the ancient of days and was led in to his presence.He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all peoples,nations and men of every language worshipped him

His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

Question:Who is the"ancient of days"?...It sez also "...and was led to his presence"..um who's presence?(emphasis on "his")

 

Ancient of days ="...led into his presence" this means the"ancient of days is a "he"="his" thats two different people present....how can I approach myself or be led to myself?(thats if you believe Jesus is God)

 

"He was given authority,glory and sovereign power...." question:Who gave him[Jesus] authority? who is the giver?

 

2 Corinthians5:21(NIV)

God made him who had no sin to be a sin for us,so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

 

It sez "GOD MADE HIM.."...not God made himself..

 

Collossians 2:9 (NIV)

For in christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form

 

christ means anointed...who anointed him?...man or angel or God...or himself?

Jesus the anointed one was given wisdom and power of God..evident in the miracles and raising of lazarus but used it sparingly and relied on reasoning with the Jewish scholars.

 

I won't quote the other as it's basically saying "given authority etc"

 

Yes please quote some more WBM

 

Btw WBM If Jesus is God..then why did he bow down on his knees to pray to God in heaven(mt of olives)..if he is God himself? God on bended knee?

 

What is with the chit chat between God and son if they are both the same person? don't you find that a little crazy?

 

As far as the passage in Daniel 7:13-14 goes how do you explain where it says "all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him". Worship is for God alone, so how do you take this verse? Is he creating another God for people to worship? The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one eternal being of God. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Why did Jesus tell people to be baptized in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because that is God.

 

Also how can John 1 or John 1:14 be explained if Jesus isn't God?

 

For 2 Corinthians 5:21 I should have been more specific. My point for this verse is that Jesus "had no sin". No one but God could live a sinless life on this earth. But as far as it saying "God made him" in this verse it's talking about how God made Jesus to be sin so that sin could be punished.

You didn't address Mark 2:3-12 when Jesus heals a man and forgives his sin. The teachers of the law knew that only God could forgive sin, which is why they thought Jesus was blaspheming. Also read John 10:27-39 espescially verse 30. In fact when it came time for Jesus to get crucified, his charge was blasphemy! (Mark 14:61-64)

As far as prayer, Jesus was communicating with God. Jesus is the perfect example of what serving God truly is, serving Him, doing His will (even to the point of death), keeping God's commandments, prayer etc. During His time on earth Jesus took a servants role, but it didn't make Him any less God.

[EnterNetProphet]

As far as the passage in Daniel 7:13-14 goes how do you explain where it says "all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him". Worship is for God alone, so how do you take this verse? Is he creating another God for people to worship? The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one eternal being of God. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Why did Jesus tell people to be baptized in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Because that is God.

 

Also how can John 1 or John 1:14 be explained if Jesus isn't God?

 

For 2 Corinthians 5:21 I should have been more specific. My point for this verse is that Jesus "had no sin". No one but God could live a sinless life on this earth. But as far as it saying "God made him" in this verse it's talking about how God made Jesus to be sin so that sin could be punished.

You didn't address Mark 2:3-12 when Jesus heals a man and forgives his sin. The teachers of the law knew that only God could forgive sin, which is why they thought Jesus was blaspheming. Also read John 10:27-39 espescially verse 30. In fact when it came time for Jesus to get crucified, his charge was blasphemy! (Mark 14:61-64)

As far as prayer, Jesus was communicating with God. Jesus is the perfect example of what serving God truly is, serving Him, doing His will (even to the point of death), keeping God's commandments, prayer etc. During His time on earth Jesus took a servants role, but it didn't make Him any less God.

 

If God bestows his authority and powers to someone..that means that person has the authority to do his bidding in his name...an agent on earth.

 

Since God has no sin...he is judge and can declare Jesus as having no sin too...was it not the apostles who wrote the gospels under the guidance of the holy spirit.What God wills....becomes..if he sez i have no sin..thats Gods verdict.

 

 

As for worshipping...who is being worshipped in the spiritual world?

 

 

You want me to believe that God/Son/Holy Ghost are physically the same person.I'm saying that they were spiritually connected(logos) ...but are separate distinct individuals.If they are physically the same person...why is jesus having conversations with himself?...why does he pray to himself? why does satan bargain with him ,when satan offered earthly kingdoms to Jesus when he was being tempted in the desert/wilderness...why would satan offer/bribe these things to God(according to you)..God would think nothing of them ...as he created everything.

 

As for teachers of the laws....who are these pharasee's or those that comprised the sanhedrin....was it not alotted to the levites(priesthood) to make burnt/wave offerings for the forgiveness of sins.Where are the levites in the new testament?

 

When jesus sez"..i will sit at the right hand of the father"...how can jesus sit at the right hand of himself?

 

There is a Lord Jesus...and there is a lord God...which is higher?

 

Who is greater in authority...the son or the father?...they can not both be equal.

 

If i followed your interpretation...the new testament would be nothing more than the rantings of a religious enigmatic schizophrenic.

 

I'm just saying there is another interpretation to just "jesus is God".

[EnterNetProphet]

Oh Hey builder..you still giving me a lot to think about!!!

[builder]

Oh Hey builder..you still giving me a lot to think about!!!

 

Sounds like a good thing.

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

Hey ENP.Welcome to GF.Good posting.Fill me in on why you were put in the idiot box.

[EnterNetProphet]

Hey ENP.Welcome to GF.Good posting.Fill me in on why you were put in the idiot box.

 

Oh hi AIG,seems I ruffled a few feathers when I changed my Tag from"Mr X" to "EnterNetProphet"..I er did'nt read my replies to the thread"Mr X is taking a break"(now that I have) hahaha... they really missed me that much( I did state this when i first joined, that my tag was temporary).

 

I noticed bewilder(builder) and ur self have been idiot boxed as well..I'm a lil confused on that as to why,but it can't be all that bad(limitations imposed of course).

 

btw Net Profit=breaking even

[EnterNetProphet]

Sounds like a good thing.

 

hahaha i have made a mental note of what you posted.

 

I was going to add something to that thread that mentioned india's security...but decided not to...er about the formation of pakistan etc.

 

 

Very interesting stuff

[EnterNetProphet]

To my dear friend WildBaldMonkey

 

umm..hold off on this debate..there seems to be a messy translation problem...as you know the new testament was written in mostly koine(common greek) not the high greek the poets and scholars used, and aramaic.

 

As you know english is a very young language...and over the centuries some implied conotations have lost their actual meaning.There is another factor of biased translations and the choice of words that translators used(well because koine was used to spread the message to the lay folk).

 

Here is a site that explains this confusing mess.

 

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/nwtbiased.htm

 

Yes reminds me of the saying"lost in the translation"

 

I'm not saying your right or wrong btw..