Science and Religion

[fullauto]

MJ... I think it's good that a muslim can come in a mainly Xtian website and defend his muslim faith with as much conviction as you.... you abviously have a strong faith and I wish you the best defending yourself....

---- BUT ----

People have been debating who's religion is correct for thousands of years without a winner and yet we still have millions of 'converts' or people who are lead into it by there parents every year...

I don't think that you can succesfully defend islam here! People here, to include myself, for the most part hate Islam even before we really get to take a look at it... And that is the fault of EVERY Muslim, not just the few fuck-sticks who make videos of beheadings.... The western world is STILL repenting and attoning over what Hitler did... but yet we have the muslims dancing in the street when our towers came down like there was a 2 for 1 sale at allahmart on sexually mature 9 year olds!

It's not so much the religion that makes us hate muslims, as it is the muslims themselves....

I do think it's good that a muslim can come in here to debate this stuff openly...but do you think any of these guys would get as much respect on a mainly Islamic forum.... probably not.... and that's not because of the Quer'an, it because muslims are some of the most intolerant people in the world! Just know that you should be greatful and apreciative that Western Xtians are generally as tolerant and open as they are.... God knows the muslims haven't been...

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Any convert to any religion shows either weak moral character, or intellegence .

or stupidity

 

And, MRIH, you've helped me prove yet ANOTHER surah from the Qu'ran ^_^.

That damn koran needs more proving than either you or I ever could prove.

 

I don't want to copy the verses,

Thank you,

 

but I'll paraphrase what I'm aiming at:

Blast!

 

Surah Al-Hajri

"And even if you show a kafir(nonbeliever,) this divine write, with all of its science, all of its morals, they will not believe. Kafirs are so bent on denying the truth, that if we (Allah, as earlier clarified,) open a straight path to heaven, that will not suffice; the kafir will call it a trick."

You're just aiding my book .

Proof? What is this? Anyone could say this about anything, and claim it came from God... no proof at all, just empty words!

[phreakwars]

Post by C.J.. coming up, just put him on ignore, he won't even TRY to make sense anyway..

 

HA HA HA HA , WE WIN !!!

 

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[phreakwars]

Uh, I'd call you a pedophile.

 

Unless you were living over a thousand years ago where this practice was normal.

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[OmegaManiac]

What would you call someone like .......

Is this a trick question?

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Uh, I'd call you a pedophile.

 

Unless you were living over a thousand years ago where this practice was normal.

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PW, I gave you more credit for brains than that! Sacrificing virgins was considered "normal" at sundry times and places throughout history... It doesn't make it right! Lynching african americans was considered "normal" a hundred years ago in the south... It doesn't make it right!

 

GET A GRIP... PEDOPHILIA IS PEDOPHILIA!!!!!!!!!

[OmegaManiac]

Use one teaspoonful per cup (more or less) for desired strength, add boiling water.

[OmegaManiac]

You want to boil phreakwars or muhammed? Perhaps both?

I'll never tell........

[OmegaManiac]

Lynching african americans was considered "normal" a hundred years ago in the south... It doesn't make it right!

 

Actually it was more recently than that.

[Crazywumbat]

Ummm.....the average follower of the Christian faith since it was founded till the 1600's? See...you're referring to the actions of one person from 1500 years ago but what you aren't mentioning is just about everything listed above was done by more than a few Christians.

[Gentilhomme]

Ok guys,

 

I've been reading this and i feel the need to bring some reason to this table. There has been SOME good points brought up, but none by CJ, (man, smarten up) and the incredable amount of bad-mouthing just makes you look like an idiot.

Anyhow, here is my little rant.

 

Personally, find religion far to easy to shut down at every point. Alot of it can be traced through sociological and psycological developpement, not to mention its anthrapological impacts that, due mostly to its former amount of control and the comforts of the easliy take-advatagable/brought up intos, plus a few ignorent idiots (like CJ), these are why it remains after the age of enlightment. Now that make me come off as a science toting bullshitter, i know, but if you starty looking into even basic psycology you can figure out the origins of most (not all) religions.

 

There are those like Christianity, Judism and Islam that say alot of thing concerning all powerful enities that were probably ment to be figurative when they were first created, then beliefs unrelentless hold on people left them to misconstrue the initial IDEAS borrows form Kevin Smith and turn them into their own wild beliefs. Now some of that shit was good but as we've seen again, and again, and again thorughout history, there will always be those that will interpret it in such a way that leads to suffering. (Burnung redheads, hanging black people, slaughtering Jews, crashing planes into towers etc...)

 

SO, why not stop all this self-rightious tomfoolery and just start thinking for yourselves. I'm sure that you've gotton alot of the good stuff from your respective teachings and that they've givien you a decent moral structure that'll let you live in reletive peace with those around you, BUT if you start telling people that your right, they're wrong and your beliefs should rule them (As is the case in even our "Equal" western cultures) this is where i got to say 'Fuck off' personally i couldn't care less what you believe in, so long as it dosn't infringe on the naturel rights and freedoms that are accepted now adays.

 

Oh and one last thing, ENOUGH WITH THE PEDOPHILIA BS! You can say what is wrong is wrong, but the simple fact is, what is consider WRONG is completely reletive to the time, if you can't realize that then i pray to god (i dunno if thats a joke or not) that you are never given any sort of power over others. If you grew up eating steak form a cup, it wouldn't seem weird to you now would it? This is the same reason that many christien parents....have christien children, its wht they grow up wiht... Taoists also often have Taoist kids.....funny how that works isn't it?

[flaxmagnifique]

Okay.

 

New here. ^_^

 

I'm a Pagan. I was a Christian for the majority of my life, Christian parents do have Christian children. Until the Christian children turn into their own persons, anyway.

 

And this 'debate' really has turned into a tossing of insults and a conglomeration of ideals that just don't mesh well.

 

Christians are Christians, Islamics are Islamics (though their prophet was a bit freaky with the young'un, you must remember, that was tradition.) Both religions are equally valid for the people that follow them. You put two staunch believers in a room with each other and they will argue until one of them dies. So what is the point in throwing insults at each other?

 

Science and Religion have been going against each other for centuries. Centuries. The fact of the matter is, Religion is an idea of faith, of mind, and of heart.

 

Science is cold, sterile, and it always has to be right. I dislike both of them, yet you can see where one will grab a foothole in the other.

 

It's very obvious that MJ knows absolutely nothing about Christianity. That's fine, MJ is quite obviously Islamic. So why would he?

 

GentilHomme is very right in the way that most entities were orginally just ideas, thoughts, comforts. Psychological blankets, if you will. I'll admit, I use my Paganism as a blanket, though it isn't just that to me.

 

Science is a cold room. You go into it to find what you need and then you leave.

 

Religion, in my experience, is something some people need to survive.

 

Can you really compare the two?

[Gentilhomme]

ok.. now let us be frank

[Gentilhomme]

the view that science is sterile is yours, it isn't fact. It can strike passion and enlighenmnet in the minds AND hearts of those who search it for anwsers, and it dosn't always need to be right, just function without being constantly baggared by religion who holds special rights because of peoples dependancy on it. Keep in mind, people depend on science too, don't take that as just a 'she needs a tumour removed' snese (which is DAMN importent) but if you look at religion, it was just a rabble of people looking for anwsers, they didn't have they knowledge to anwser them truthfully (which isn't to say they LIED in a negative sense) so they made answers which have had thousands of years to bubble up. Science, as a truely funtional system, is still quite young and therefore dosn't have the same place in peoples lives. So if you really think about it, science is just religion v2.1. Its is functional, factual and accually does preform miricles.

 

While your views hold some truth, they seem to be very much yours, in a debate it is best to leave personal feelings aside and look at facts if you wanna get to the nitty gritty. PS J.P smells like dog urine.

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

(Burnung redheads, hanging black people, slaughtering Jews, crashing planes into towers etc...)

This is my point exactly, all 4 of these examples were done in the name of some ideology, but not in the name God! (notice crashing planes into towers by islamic al-queda) This is why I say that islam is NOT a religion, it is a socio-political ideology. Much like communism of the former soviet union that had elements of atheism in it, Islam has elements of monotheism in it.

 

Oh and one last thing, ENOUGH WITH THE PEDOPHILIA BS! You can say what is wrong is wrong, but the simple fact is, what is consider WRONG is completely reletive to the time,

Then was it not wrong for the nazis to kill 6 million jews in germany and poland form 1939 to 1945 because for them it was socially accepted? Was it not wrong for lynch mobs to hang african americans (less than 100 years ago, thanks Omega)? Was it not wrong for mohammed(may piss be upon him) to fuck a 9 year old little girl? I really want to see your answer to these three questions.

[Gentilhomme]

Easy, the world over this was the norm. i think somebody mentioned that earlier. Your Nazi example is simply horrible (stop using it, you look like an idiot), that was NEVER socially accepted, that was a bunch a hypotized germans with guns and money saying 'fuck off and let use burn' to anyone who objected (oh, and there was alot of people who wanted. 2, lynching africans..hmm, was;nt there a war to stop that? yah i think so, my american (the FREE-EST of the free, the EQUAL-EST or the equal =/ ) history isn't amazing but i think i know that much, OH and the British empire (that really big one way back then) had already made slavery illegal and it was alreadly gone in any coutry not under insane-tyranical rule. As for the whole 9 year old, i'll admit i don't know that whole deal well, but MJ mentioned that nothing happened till she was atleast 12, and as he rightfully stated earlier, life spane was short and this is how it was. It certainly happened amoung christiens, maybe not christ himself but that fact that Mohammed was subject to those conditions only shows, unlike christ, that he was a human being. (not that i'm implying that christ was a allegator or an alien or the son of god or somethign as equally foolish) You also need to think about how much a figure head or religion plays in its values, i somehow doubt that MJ will be ingaging in sexual intercorse with a nine year old, or 12 or whatever. You're really getting lost in the point and your other 'examples' (which don't fit at all) are really short sighted.

 

Sorry i'm getting personal,but man, you're really being an american sterotype. (the bad one) you gotta step outside your own narrow life (not an insult, but we northamericans are pretty sheltered and conditionned, especially you folks in the middle) Anyhow, i'm tied and lost my train of thought so.. OPh yah, the first thingy about islam being a cult, again you're sheltered, trust me when i say there are MANY more in islam who hate the idiots as much as you. and ugh, my brain...yah, incase you didn't read my first entry, i mentioned something about the whole abuse of religion thing. Don't blame islam becaise a bunch of nut cases used it to duke wieners into strapping c4 to their chests and going for some coffee, in the same way it isn't that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' (sorry if that patronizing you...) 'islam dosn't kill people, psycos with rocket propelled grenades kill people' And i use various examples (redheads, black, towers) to showcase more then JUST christien faults and bring into light that shit happens all around and pointing fingers at a doctirne of religon isn't going to make thigns better, just mekt the nuts wanna kill you more (bring them on is not an approit respose) If theres anything i hav'nt adressed, forgive me. it's 1am, i jst lost some friends and i need a foods real bad. nite nite

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Easy, the world over this was the norm. i think somebody mentioned that earlier.

Pedophilia was normal the world over in 700AD????.. I don't think so.

Your Nazi example is simply horrible (stop using it, you look like an idiot),

Well answer the question then !!!!! The example is very valid until one of you DAFT INDIVIDUALS answers the question!!!!

that was NEVER socially accepted,

If it wasn't socially accepted then, uhhhhh, WHY IN TH EFUCK WAS IT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE??? YOU are the one who looks stupid here! Answer the fucking question. Was it right or wrong? What's so difficult about the question... Answer it already. Was it right or wrong? Maybe we need a pol for you islamic appoligists.

that was a bunch a hypotized germans with guns and money saying 'fuck off and let use burn' to anyone who objected (oh, and there was alot of people who wanted.

What is the difference between of "bunch of people" accepting something and "society" accepting something? You are either stupid or insane.

2, lynching africans..hmm, was;nt there a war to stop that?

No there wasn't. Since the lynchings took place well into the 20th century, which war stopped it? WWI, WWII... You look way stupider than I, you daft moron!

yah i think so, my american (the FREE-EST of the free, the EQUAL-EST or the equal =/ ) history isn't amazing but i think i know that much,

Well, you obviously don't know SHIT! and your a complete imbecile, If was only twice as intelligent as you, I'd commit suicide out of embarassment (If I could figure out how to do it, because I'd still be stupid)

As for the whole 9 year old, i'll admit i don't know that whole deal well, but MJ mentioned that nothing happened till she was atleast 12,

Even MJ said he only thought she was 12 and couldn't prove it, however history has recorded that mohammed(may piss be upon him) consummated his marriage to aisha when she was 9. You have already proven how stupid you are, so you needn't keep on!

You're really getting lost in the point and your other 'examples' (which don't fit at all) are really short sighted.

Werll, I realize now that you need an IQ over 65 to understand the point so I'll explain it for you... Mohammed(may piss be upon him) is a supposed to a representative of God. As a representative of God he should act accordingly. Any of his actions should also transcend time and space to accurately express what should or should not be an acceptable practice for all cultures, anywhere at anytime. To do anything else would be hypocrisy on God's representative's part. Now the point I was trying to make is this "If it is wrong, then it is wrong. It doesn't matter what other fluff you put around it, it is just wrong." Here's another example for you. 500 years ago, slavery was accepted all over the world. It was socially acceptable EVERYWHERE. Does that make it right?

 

Sorry i'm getting personal,but man,

No your not! Your a pompous self-righteous asshole.

 

you're really being an american sterotype. (the bad one)

Hey stupid shit, I'm in the minority here! knock, knock, anybody home?

 

you gotta step outside your own narrow life (not an insult, but we northamericans are pretty sheltered and conditionned, especially you folks in the middle)

You are the one(s) who are asleep, and brainwashed into believing that islam is a religion of peace with nice followers who really love us.

 

Anyhow, i'm tied and lost my train of thought so..

That's what happens to those of you with IQ's less than 65.

 

OPh yah, the first thingy about islam being a cult, again you're sheltered, trust me when i say there are MANY more in islam who hate the idiots as much as you.

Where are they? I haven't heard many of them. Even MJ or Lovely wouldn't denounce what they (the islamic terrorists) are doing. LovelyLady gave a half-hearted denunciation a while back after being coerced.

 

and ugh, my brain...

lament all you want, it'll probably always be crippled.

 

yah, incase you didn't read my first entry, i mentioned something about the whole abuse of religion thing.

Yeah I read it, it was stupid!

 

Don't blame islam

Why?

 

becaise a bunch of nut cases used it to duke wieners into strapping c4 to their chests and going for some coffee,

I don't have anything against c4, just detonating it around innocent people.

 

in the same way it isn't that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' (sorry if that patronizing you...) 'islam dosn't kill people, psycos with rocket propelled grenades kill people'

Your right! NOT! A better analogy is Nazis don't kill Jews, SS guards with canasters of Xylon-B gas kill Jews!

 

And i use various examples (redheads, black, towers) to showcase more then JUST christien faults and bring into light that shit happens all around and pointing fingers at a doctirne of religon isn't going to make thigns better, just mekt the nuts wanna kill you more (bring them on is not an approit respose)

I need another moron to english translation, wait I think I made this one out... You use examples to prove your point... Ok , what examples? Pointing fingers at killers will make them kill, therefore we shouldn't point fingers at them... This is the stupdiest thing you've said so far. If I (we) cowar to there inceasant demands, then they will see that they can get me to cowar to anything and they will ! Go suck an imams dick, you coward!

 

If theres anything i hav'nt adressed, forgive me. it's 1am, i jst lost some friends and i need a foods real bad. nite nite

Moron to English translation, please.

[Gentilhomme]

You've really little. If you're missing the point then thats your problem,

Firstly, again with the nazis....not every nazi was for the whole nutcase trip, the fuck heads really were the minority, but they had power. ( If you didn't know this, try reading The Wave, its kinda dumb but it might give you a idea of that whole situation)

you did bring up a decent point about slavery being common place (keep it up and people might start respecting your opinions, just loose the unessessary insults) But as far as that is concerned, you must keep in mind the political structure of the time (there was pretty much only one basic systeme) there was many power hungry fools, with power, who ran the show only for their betterment. It was widely accepted because of how the populations of the planet were developped. (learn a little socioology then get back to me on that) It is this same developpment the gives you the values that are held today, over time these will constantly change so to say that there is an absolute right or wrong simply can't work. (I'm not saying i support lynching or slavery, i would fight to stop it, but most wouldn't many years ago in their respective regions)

Anyhow, the rest of your rambling was just your failure to understand my points and i feel no need to furthur prove what i'm saying. (oh and for the record, my IQ is about twice your estimate, insulting people isn't gonna get you anywhere)

 

P.S: would somebody respectable comment on my entries, i enjoy good arguement, this ranter is boring me.

[Crazywumbat]

Pedophilia was normal the world over in 700AD????.. I don't think so.

 

Well you thought wrong buddy...

 

"According to Hostensius, once a girl was physically ready to consummate a sexual relationship, she was ready for marriage, and the same was true for boys. However, since puberty came earlier for females than males, they could marry at a younger age (usually, he said, girls were ready at age twelve and boys at age fourteen) (Brundage, 434)."

 

So what about all your pedo Christian ancestors? I guess its perfectly acceptable for them to commit atrocious acts, since its in the name of God almighty an whatnot, but when a Muslim does it hes labeled a horrible person?

 

And unlike half the garbage you spew, I can actually post a source for this.

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/sex-spouses.shtml

 

You are the one(s) who are asleep, and brainwashed into believing that islam is a religion of peace with nice followers who really love us.

 

The same thing could be said about Christianity.

 

What you seem to do in all your Anti-Islamic posts is talk about how horrible and brutish Islam is, but refuse to see that your religion has done the same horrible things, many times on a much wider scale. Until you can realize that then your arguments hold no validity.

[Gentilhomme]

Firstly, god i'm glad to see there is somebody with half a brain.

 

Secondly, the only thign i;ld like to say is; saying Christrens suck too won't go anywhere good, any religon isn't good or bad. One, whats good or bad will varie, its followers will differ from the morals of other religions (but any major religion, the message is pretty much the same; Fuck off and be kind!)

and two, that good and bad shit is also interpreted differently amoung the followers of the same religion, please note the factioning of religions as an example of interpretation. That alone i think is proof that no religion is 'Bad' in a sense, they are far too varied (though personally, i think we'd be better off not having created religion of anykind, but that is just opinion.)

Oh and saying christiens have been fucking things up on a wider scale is true, but not because of the religion, but remeber, were coming off the time of the british empire (christiens) so its not fair to blame the religion in that situation.

 

Anywho, good stuff.

[fullauto]

I have a unique opinion.... As a satanist, I think all religions based on the blind faith in 'God' are the churches of fools.... But, I understand why people are Xtians, Jews, or Muslims.... I think it's basically because children are 'indoctrinated' at an early age when they are very impressionable, and are made to believe some very strange things... (again, just my opinion)... But, as Ive said before, I think that bitternes between religions who all worship 'god' in one form or another is largely a culture problem.... And that is backed up by one very true fact!

 

We don't hate the Muslims because they are Muslims... If that were true I would hate Xtians and Jews too! We hate them because they are fucking sociopaths and constitute a major threat now... The fact that I, an American Satanist, hates them and not Xtians or Jews is just proof that it is not thier religion that we hate.... it's THEM! We simply lump them together into the group 'Muslim' because it is a) common to all of them and b) it convienient!

 

Imagine saying this every time you were pissed at Islam!

 

"Goddamned, those fucking radical persons of colour whom may or may not be a muslim and doesn't know the true faith of Islam pricks are pissing me off!"

 

or we can just say

 

"fuck those sand-******s!" or "I shit on Muslims!"

 

It's a convenience thing! And it makes for better banter!

[Gentilhomme]

Fair enough point, but slapping the same label on minority of shit-heads as is the title of an otherwise decent group only leads to the persecution and suffering of those decent people due to 1) the acts of those shit-heads who carrey a simular banner 2) the ignorent masses that are persecuting the decent ones along wiht the shitheads and drowning out the voice of reason under a blind cloud of jackassery.

 

you could easily turn "Goddamned, those fucking radical persons of colour whom may or may not be a muslim and doesn't know the true faith of Islam pricks are pissing me off!" in "Goddamned, those fucking shitheads (or hmm, maybe terrorists would fit here as well...yah..) are pissing me off."

[fullauto]

I wish we could, but I don't think that we are going to change the rules of slander.... they were ratified about 6500 BC.... HAHAHAHhahaha

[OmegaManiac]

It is kinda interesting to think of all the atrocities that have been committed in the name of (enter your favorite diety here). Chances are of course that the said actions were more politicaly based than spiritualy. Just a guess...

[C-J...]

There is a big difference..

 

If a single worshipper of a religion (any religion) commits a horrible act, its not cause of the religion, its caused by him/her alone.

 

If the prophet/inventer/leader of a religion commits this act, it shows every single follower/worshipper of said religion, that it is acceptable.

 

 

Muhammed set the bar for each and every muslim 1400 years ago, and ever since then Islam has comitted horrific acts in the name of allah/muhammed.

 

Jesus never harmed anyone, while muhammed was a murdering, hypocritic, lying, deceiving, childmolesting maniac.

 

Nuff said.