The Pledge of Allegiance: Forced patriotism for kids?

[DizzyME]

The Pledge of Alligiance. At first glance, it seems to be a nice way to show your pride for your country. But when you really think about it, isn't it a bit odd to have children standing to attention every morning, facing a flag, repeating words they really have no true consept of? Kinda brings to mind a picture of Nazi Germany... Get em and brainwash them at an early age... I got to thinking about this in class while we were having a discussion about whether or not "under god" should be removed from the pledge. (Personally, I think they might as well remove it, since it wasn't there to begin with, and since there is supposedly a seperation of church and state, wouldn't it be the nice thing to do?)

 

Anyways, this debate is a general one about the Plede of Allegiance. What do you think about it? Is it something that children should be saying in schools?

[Outlaw2747]

To be honest, most of those kids don't even know what they are saying.

[DizzyME]

To be honest, most of those kids don't even know what they are saying.

 

 

I know! So why ask them to do it? Isn't it a bit odd?

[Outlaw2747]

I really dunno. Could it be a tradition from many years ago? I can at least grasp a concept of what it means but hell most adults cannot even do that!

[ImWithStupid]

I don't see anything wrong with having kids say the pledge of allegience in schools. I think that instilling patriotism in children at that young of an age, before they are old enough to understand the issues or are able to form opinions to the contrary is good.

 

I think patriotism to your homeland should be kind of like how I feel about people in general. I have respect for people I don't know until their attitude or stupidity cause me to change my opinion.

 

I think children should have respect for the flag and the United States of America until they have a reason to feel differently.

[jokersarewild]

I don't see anything wrong with having kids say the pledge of allegience in schools. I think that instilling patriotism in children at that young of an age, before they are old enough to understand the issues or are able to form opinions to the contrary is good.

 

So, brainwash them to think that an already tainted country is perfect, or at least really good, eh? Doesn't really matter. Since they know not what they are saying, they will form opinions to the contrary anyway.

 

I think patriotism to your homeland should be kind of like how I feel about people in general. I have respect for people I don't know until their attitude or stupidity cause me to change my opinion.

 

Good for you...I guess.

 

I think children should have respect for the flag and the United States of America until they have a reason to feel differently.

 

Yep, every time another Bush gets elected, patriotism loses its wings.

[ImWithStupid]

So, brainwash them to think that an already tainted country is perfect, or at least really good, eh? Doesn't really matter. Since they know not what they are saying, they will form opinions to the contrary anyway.

 

There is a big difference between "brainwashing" and teaching children to show respect.

 

Saying the pledge of allegence isn't going to brainwash anyone any more then playing the national anthem before sporting events will.

 

As far as comparing kids saying the pledge of allegence to brainwashing like the Nazis in Germany. In Germany not only were they forcefed nationalism but they were also disuaded, whether by fear or propeganda, not to think any other thoughts of their own outside the Nazi party ideas. This isn't what is happening in school by saying the pledge of allegence.

[DizzyME]

Are nationalism and patriotism really that far off from one another? Some would say no...

[Jhony5]

My daughter just learned the pledge in kindergarten. She has no idea what the hell shes saying or why she has to do that. She asked me why do they have to do the pledge. So I told her its just something you have to do. No reason to bother explaining it to her. I cant see how this fits in as brainwashing. I don't feel as though i'm being brainwashed when I go to a Colts game and they sing the national anthem before hand. A country without learned traditions and instiled pride would be void of character.

 

Alot of people have issue with teaching thier kids patriotic traditions like this, but then they teach them that when they lose a tooth to put it under their pillow. Then at night a fairy flies in through the window and buys it off them.

Psychologicaly, our traditions of 'Santa Claus' and the 'tooth fairy' and the 'easter bunny' are far more harmful to the mind of a child. Think about that shit for a minute. We want to try to convince our children that there are no monsters in their closet, that their is no such thing as the boogie man, yet a giant rabbit hops into their home and hides eggs while leaving a gift basket.

[Insomniac]

I find the pledge disturbing. It promotes a mindless ant-like allegiance to the government.

 

And the whole pledging to the flag thing... Like anybody is listening... it's so creepy. It's almost like praying to an imaginary omnipotent being.

 

I would pledge myself to the government, depending on the leadership, silently. But I will not stand up for the pledge anymore. I took a good look at the ritual in 7th grade, when we did it in the gym. There were at least a hundred people doing this, like it meant anything. And the adults were just watching us like it was their job to make sure we were patriotic. I didn't want to get lost in that senseless crap. I don't want to feel like I was harvested. I'm in charge of myself.

[skategreen]

I find the pledge disturbing. It promotes a mindless ant-like allegiance to the government.

 

And the whole pledging to the flag thing... Like anybody is listening... it's so creepy. It's almost like praying to an imaginary omnipotent being.

 

I would pledge myself to the government, depending on the leadership, silently. But I will not stand up for the pledge anymore. I took a good look at the ritual in 7th grade, when we did it in the gym. There were at least a hundred people doing this, like it meant anything. And the adults were just watching us like it was their job to make sure we were patriotic. I didn't want to get lost in that senseless crap. I don't want to feel like I was harvested. I'm in charge of myself.

 

Greetings Oh Wakeful One.

 

I notice you didn't start with a first post in the "New Members Sign In Here" Thread.

 

Neither did I when I first snooped in.

 

shakes hand Howdy, Rebel Pard'ner.

[Insomniac]

I thought I could slip in under the radar, you know? All the forum veterans check the "new members forum" for people to mentally brand as newbs for the rest of their existence.

 

But to avoid further confusion, off I go to the slaughter house... like herded cattle...

[Humchuckninny]

Technically, reciting the pledge is a form of brainwashing. But under the same definition, education is also brainwashing. Gaining knowledge it also a form of brainwashing. Brainwashing isn't a bad thing - it can be used to instate evil things, but the literal definition does not imply anything evil at all.

 

We only began saying the pledge in schools in the 1980s. And only then it was to instill a sense of patriotism into Americans. Honestly, it does no harm at all, and can potentially increase patriotism. As to the whole "under God," my argument is that technically we are a nation under God. Hear me out.

 

Cultural Moral Indexicalism states

[Insomniac]

You mentioned the phrase "Under God"... I forgot to take this into consideration.

 

As an atheist, It's not that I think all people listening to the pledge will believe in God. I know that's not true... I'm against the phrase because it puts pride in the wrong place. I think we need to acknowledge the path before us, the trillions of years of physical evolution, and millions of biological, to understand the weight we have on our shoulders as humans and develop a sense of goals, which is what really matters.

 

Because the pledge is about having pride. I understand that religious people have pride in their beliefs, but I consider atheism to be as much of a belief as any other, so it must be represented.

 

The phrase should be "one nation, existing under god, or by itself, divided yet united, with liberty and justice for all."

Face it, the pledge was never pretty to begin with. It's horribly un-songlike.

 

And now that I've thought about it, I guess the pledge isn't bad, but we need to teach the children why they do it. If you tell them because the federal government is funding education, then sure. But they need a reason.

[Humchuckninny]

I agree with your last statement Insomniac. The entire point of the pledge is lost unless we teach meaning behind it. Let's face it, most children will not find their own meaning in the pledge. So yes, the Whys behind it should also be taught.

 

That's a very interesting view on what we should change it too. I have to think about that for a couple minutes... The idea that "under God" is a representative attribute is an interesting one. I'll get back to you.

[ToriAllen]

Where I'm going with this is that Christianity, as a dominant norm in society, dictates what is moral and immoral within our society. Look at the constitution - based off of generally christian values. To me the phrase "under God" in the pledge means "we are a predominatnly christain society in moral beliefs." If we were predominatly Islam, it would read "under Allah." If we were predominatly pagan it might be "under Thor" or something.

 

Some people argue that in our society we should offer freedom to EVERYONE and that the individual is valued. This is true. And this is why we do not impose the Christain God upon anyone. By stating we are a nation under God, we do not state that we all must believe in God. It does not force a belief in God upon anyone - it merely states that God is accepted by the dominant norms in society. That's it.

 

I might also point out that democracy does mean rule by the majority. Changing the pledge because minorities (I do not mean that in the "race" category by any means) are "offended" is ridiculous. Unless a majority finds it necessary and/or offensive, we cannot change it. Doing so would give the minority a greater power over the majority, which would undermine democracy.

I agree to a point. Technically, 'God' does not refer only to the Christian God. If the phrase was meant to only encompass Christians, it would use the more specific name of Jesus. Zeus is a God in the ancient Roman world. Thor was also a God. Allah is a God. The term God is simply the English word used to describe a higher power; any higher power. That being said, the majority do believe in a God of some sort, be it Allah, nature, science, or aliens.

 

I agree with your last statement Insomniac. The entire point of the pledge is lost unless we teach meaning behind it. Let's face it, most children will not find their own meaning in the pledge. So yes, the Whys behind it should also be taught.

With most forms of learning, the memorization comes before the understanding. I learned my ABC

[Humchuckninny]

There are some values that can not be taught in a classroom. Those values fall on the parents to teach.

 

Thinking about it like that, I half agree. Yes, those values should be parents to teach, however I believe that if the schools decide to instill the memorization... "tactic" and bring the pledge into schools in the first place, the responsibility will also lie within them to teach said values.

[ToriAllen]

Thinking about it like that, I half agree. Yes, those values should be parents to teach, however I believe that if the schools decide to instill the memorization... "tactic" and bring the pledge into schools in the first place, the responsibility will also lie within them to teach said values.

Schools are regimented. They can teach about American history and patriots of the past. They can explain the meaning of the words contained in the constitution and the pledge. They can even explain the history of the pledge itself. But, the feeling, the pride comes from family. If the family is disrespectful and badmouths the government, values, and foundations of this country, then no amount of school intervention will change that attitude in the child. School is part of the

[Humchuckninny]

Schools are regimented. They can teach about American history and patriots of the past. They can explain the meaning of the words contained in the constitution and the pledge. They can even explain the history of the pledge itself. But, the feeling, the pride comes from family. If the family is disrespectful and badmouths the government, values, and foundations of this country, then no amount of school intervention will change that attitude in the child. School is part of the

[snafu]

What a stupid thread.

 

Read the pledge. It states that you pledge allegiances to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands. What other worthy reason would you have to pledge to something? Unity and self preservation is a grand thing to alien yourself with the rest of America.

One nation under God. Indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

You don

[Humchuckninny]

What a stupid thread.

Oh, I am so sorry. Thank you for gracing us with your presence, oh great one.

 

Read the pledge.

Oh, that though never occured to me. Here, during this whole discussion about the pledge of allegience, and oh! silly me, I've never read the pledge. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

It states that you pledge allegiances to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands. What other worthy reason would you have to pledge to something? Unity and self preservation is a grand thing to alien yourself with the rest of America.

One nation under God. Indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

I see. Thanks captain obvious, for pointing out to US what we already knew. And for reciting the pledge to those of us who obviously haven't read it yet

 

You don

[Insomniac]

And when I was growing up and said under God I presumed it to mean something more powerfull than you and me.

 

You also naturally had no reason to question its existence, even if somewhat mystical. Therein lies a problem with representation.

[snafu]

Listen chumfuck

 

The tread was Forced patriotism for kids.

I was simply ( for num nuts as yourself) was stating what the pledge was saying. the thread was dumb because most moron's unlike yourselve could see that.

You didn't fit in this catigory so I tried to make it simple for you.

[Humchuckninny]

Listen chumfuck

 

The tread was Forced patriotism for kids.

I was simply ( for num nuts as yourself) was stating what the pledge was saying. the thread was dumb because most moron's unlike yourselve could see that.

You didn't fit in this catigory so I tried to make it simple for you.

 

No, the fact is you either did not read any posts except for my last one (the one right before you showed your extreme pretentiousness, if you even read that one), or you didn't understand any of the posts. If you had, you would have realized that we had strayed from the "forced patriotism for kids" idea into an entirely new area of discussion - effectiveness for invoking patriotism into children and the persistant debate of keeping "under God" in the pledge.

 

Now, if you had refrained from insulting all of the rest of us on this thread and produced a "new turn" to bring the thread back TO the original topic instead of trying to pretend that you had read what was going on and steer your blatantly wrong opinions in the wrong direction, then perhaps you would have gained some respect and people might respond to whatever it was you had to say, not matter how ignorant it may have been.

[snafu]

OK my apologies for any insults.

I didn