Michael Moore

[tizz]

Ya ya I know, everyone is sick of this guys fat arse.

 

Anyhoo.... I was watching "Bowling for Columbine" tonight and I got thinking back to F911. OK I watched it (I am a fan of Moore's work, though not some sort of worshiper of his point of view. Face it, he is entertaining) Anyway, I was thinking back to the general reactions to F911 and recalled two reactions in general. !.. He was a genius and god for exposing some hidden truth and 2.. He was out of his mind and a complete liar. Personally I still get a chuckle out of both. I remember when I finally broke down and watched it off a link from a forum (oops, was I supposed to admit that? ) but I remember realizing that most of what he had to say was pretty much common knowledge for anyone who followed world events or politics so there was not great unveiling of truth. And then there were the claims that he was full of shit. Well, not really. I don't recall anything he had to say to be a lie at all, just a selective truth (OK VERY selective)

 

No as far as documentaries go he did commit a major faux pas. A documentary is at least supposed to ATTEMPT to be objective, so ya he screwed up there (but that is just part of the beauty of his work) Other than that I suppose all he can be labeled accused of is being stricken with liberalitis, a MAJOR case of it, but that is not a crime (or at least it isn't supposed to be.

 

I argued all this back when the topic was hot and faced attack for NOT being utterly appalled that he used his power in media and his gift of convincing people based on selective truths.

 

What I really want to know from those that consider him the new anti-christ (BTW you are wrong that title belongs to Michael Eisner) is........

 

What is the difference between Moore and GW Bush? They both used selective truths to gain support. They both use a fear (pretty much of each other) and some creative psychology to get the weak minded, tv addicted, rag mag reading public to rise up behind them into the great vastness of ignorance.

 

Most people who hate Moore support Bush, and most who hate bush support Moore. Duh... They are one in the same.

[Insomniac]

I personally know a lot of people who are liberal democrats that hate Moore.

 

I like his movies. They're entertaining, but I know enough to realize that they aren't totally factual. He's biased. He will not admit both the bad and the good, he will try to be one sided to make a point.

 

It's like bullshitting an essay. It might be the right thesis, and the right sources, but you did a lot of twisting, manipulation, and bullshitting to fit it all together. Haven't we all done this?

 

Micheal Moore represents something. He's the perfect example of freedom of speech.

[edit] As for the question, I think the difference between the two is that Bush stands for different ideals, and has more political power to make those ideals into policy. Micheal Moore doesn't have a learning deficiency and was never the head cheerleader at his university.

[Kryptonite Man]

That fat bastich represents the WORST example of freedom of speech, by lying and showing only half the story, and portraying our soldiers as bloodthirsty savages like the shitbags we're fighting in the Middle East. Moore is a liar and an ambulance chasing piece of trash! Preying on the misery of the families of our war dead like some bloated vulture spewing out his venomous propoganda against America. It makes me sick to my stomach!!!!

 

Because of asshats like him in the '60's, I lost an uncle in the Vietnam War, in Cambodia, thanks to that motherfucker Pol Pot and his perverted savages of the Khemere Rouge.(may Pot and his shitbag bastards rot in EVERY level of Hell for ten thousand trillion eternities!!!) If Michael Moore did this to my brother, who was in the Army, my entire family would gladly hunt him down and kick his fat ass from here to the gates of Hell and back just for the fun of it!

 

That's how pissed off my family can get.

[ToriAllen]

When watching his movies you have to do a lot of research afterward. You find most of the clips in the movies have nothing to do with each other, but they are paired in such a way that it seems they go together. In F911, Michael Moore showed clips of footage from local news stations and presented it as his own. Most of the people in the film did not even know they were going to be in the film. It is sad how easily some people are deceived by cut and splice techniques.

[fullauto]

Don't trust a man that gets rich soap-boxing aginst the rich

[tizz]

That fat bastich represents the WORST example of freedom of speech, by lying and showing only half the story, and portraying our soldiers as bloodthirsty savages like the shitbags we're fighting in the Middle East. Moore is a liar and an ambulance chasing piece of trash! Preying on the misery of the families of our war dead like some bloated vulture spewing out his venomous propoganda against America. It makes me sick to my stomach!!!!

 

Because of asshats like him in the '60's, I lost an uncle in the Vietnam War, in Cambodia, thanks to that motherfucker Pol Pot and his perverted savages of the Khemere Rouge.(may Pot and his shitbag bastards rot in EVERY level of Hell for ten thousand trillion eternities!!!) If Michael Moore did this to my brother, who was in the Army, my entire family would gladly hunt him down and kick his fat ass from here to the gates of Hell and back just for the fun of it!

 

That's how pissed off my family can get.

 

I admit he chose his own truths, but truth it ALL was. I ask you to find me ANY person with any kind of significant power, whether it be from media or politics or just plain money, who does not do EXACTLY the same thing.

 

 

UMM and BTW what does Moore have to do with Vietnam, Pol Pot or any orf that other crap for that matter?

 

Cambodia was a US strategic fuck up from hell. Not Moore.

[tizz]

When watching his movies you have to do a lot of research afterward. You find most of the clips in the movies have nothing to do with each other, but they are paired in such a way that it seems they go together. In F911, Michael Moore showed clips of footage from local news stations and presented it as his own. Most of the people in the film did not even know they were going to be in the film. It is sad how easily some people are deceived by cut and splice techniques.

 

Ya but he is HARDLY the first to use that

[eisanbt]

You mean the fuck-ups like him in the 60s who were asking that your uncle be brought home? Vietnam was a prime example of Neo-Imperialist bullshit on both the US and Russian's part. Its because of fuck-ups like GW that hundreds were killed in LAOS and Chilie and dozens of other countries were slaughtered for the 'good' of the US. Might I add that all of which were completely illegal and without the knowledge/consent of the american people. (Accually Bush senior to be specific, Ex CIA director and orchistrator of more then one 'Secret' war) And I use the term good very loosely as they costed the country a tremndous amount for the immediate interests of those in power. (Look into the Bush family's connection with the oil industry for another examples of goverment using state resources to profit themselves.)

 

When i say this i say it with no malice towards the PEOPLE of the US but with hatred to the POWER of the US but, FUCK US IMPERIALISM! (And French, and British and to the aid of Canada in various imperialist activities!)

 

Note to the uneducated: When i say secret war, I don't mean its a wacked up leftist theory, They are no longer secrets. And there are plently of dead orientals, and South Americans and Africans to attest to that. (Not to mention the after effects of these activities which caused countless more deaths. Nothing like installing a horrific ruler to keep a country from gaining intelligent/civil rule...Now about that Saddam fellow...)

[Humchuckninny]

I attended Columbine High School, and after watching Bowling For Columbine I refuse to read or watch anything else Michael Moore has produced. The misconceptions and different mentalities he portrays throughout the movie are very incorrect (not to mention Moore is on the other end of the political spectrum that I am on already). Oh man, don't get me started, I could be here for hours..,

[fullauto]

I attended Columbine High School, and after watching Bowling For Columbine I refuse to read or watch anything else Michael Moore has produced. The misconceptions and different mentalities he portrays throughout the movie are very incorrect (not to mention Moore is on the other end of the political spectrum that I am on already). Oh man, don't get me started, I could be here for hours..,

 

Tell it like you see it brother... we could all use a little truth in this shit storm

[Humchuckninny]

It's just that Moore presented the idea that it was the communities fault for what happened. And the NRA's fault. And the government's fault. Hell, it was everyone's fault but those "poor" boys who did it. Anyone who has been to Columbine High School (before OR after the shooting) would know that bullying there isn't much of a problem. True, the school was (and still is) geared towards athletics - it is a major source of income, and the sports teams there are very good. However, some students simply chose to be bullied, if that makes sense. They liked to victimize themselves. I put the full blame of what happened upon the two boys. It was their own decision, and by putting the blame elsewhere it leads to the "mentality" that your actions are not a reflection of you. I can go out and do something, and obviously it was society's pressure on me that caused that. No. I was the one who chose to do it. I hope that makes sense.

[tizz]

The one thing I am REALLY surprised he glossed over in Bowling is that in every school shooting since 96, including the kindergatener in Flint, the kids were on seritonin inhibtors (IE Prozac Zoloft ect..)

 

Ya the kids did it, but when a kid does something like that you HAVE to look deeper

[Anna Perenna]

I admit he chose his own truths, but truth it ALL was. I ask you to find me ANY person with any kind of significant power, whether it be from media or politics or just plain money, who does not do EXACTLY the same thing.

 

Exactly.

 

And has anyone ever stopped to think, that if MM really had been spreading lies, his ass would have been sued from here to Africa by now?

 

The fact is, as biased as he indubitably is, he's not a liar.

 

Besides, America needs him.

[ToriAllen]

Exactly.

 

And has anyone ever stopped to think, that if MM really had been spreading lies, his ass would have been sued from here to Africa by now?

 

The fact is, as biased as he indubitably is, he's not a liar.

 

Besides, America needs him.

He can't be sued because of the way his film is listed. It is considered art. He doesn't outright lie, he just cuts and splices in such a way that the film itself is deceitful. His lawyers make sure everything is within the limits of the law.

[Kryptonite Man]

You mean the fuck-ups like him in the 60s who were asking that your uncle be brought home? Vietnam was a prime example of Neo-Imperialist bullshit on both the US and Russian's part. Its because of fuck-ups like GW that hundreds were killed in LAOS and Chilie and dozens of other countries were slaughtered for the 'good' of the US. Might I add that all of which were completely illegal and without the knowledge/consent of the american people. (Accually Bush senior to be specific, Ex CIA director and orchistrator of more then one 'Secret' war) And I use the term good very loosely as they costed the country a tremndous amount for the immediate interests of those in power. (Look into the Bush family's connection with the oil industry for another examples of goverment using state resources to profit themselves.)

 

When i say this i say it with no malice towards the PEOPLE of the US but with hatred to the POWER of the US but, FUCK US IMPERIALISM! (And French, and British and to the aid of Canada in various imperialist activities!)

 

Note to the uneducated: When i say secret war, I don't mean its a wacked up leftist theory, They are no longer secrets. And there are plently of dead orientals, and South Americans and Africans to attest to that. (Not to mention the after effects of these activities which caused countless more deaths. Nothing like installing a horrific ruler to keep a country from gaining intelligent/civil rule...Now about that Saddam fellow...)

 

Hey dumbass!!! DON'T BUY INTO THAT "AMERICA IS AN IMPERIALIST NATION BULLSHIT!!" Because that's exactly what it is....BULLSHIT!!!!

[builder]

He can't be sued because of the way his film is listed. It is considered art. He doesn't outright lie, he just cuts and splices in such a way that the film itself is deceitful. His lawyers make sure everything is within the limits of the law.

 

And he learnt this technique from where?

 

Tori, Moore might be a rabid lefty, but without the doubt factor, the war machine would be rabidly spreading democracy all over the globe.

 

In the name of God, of course. The mission must be blessed.

 

How many fuck-ups will it take before the debtors close in?

[eisanbt]

Hey dumbass!!! DON'T BUY INTO THAT "AMERICA IS AN IMPERIALIST NATION BULLSHIT!!" Because that's exactly what it is....BULLSHIT!!!!

 

 

Believe what you will but really man, do your research. I'm not getting this from IS or Michel Moore or any other 'nutcase' media source (Well maybe Moore is an idiot), I'm going off well documneted facts. Records FROM the US government and the reports that were given by media/government/affected families of the suffering countries, most of which are still struggling today due to past US interference. And I'm not claiming that the US is the only one doing this, you've just the most resources to do so and with the least interferncd from your people (Not including dictators that is as they don't need to hide shit form their people) We live in rich countries because we play VERY dirty capitalism. (AKA Total capitalism) Canada is not as bad because our politicans just can't get away with it but we're certainly without dirty hands. This one reason why theres so many commies/socialists/anarchists out there, it is simply inherient in a capitalist system to maximize profit for yourself and if that is at the cost of others, all the better! Less competition., more complience.

 

Capitalism= BS

[ToriAllen]

Ya but he is HARDLY the first to use that

No, and he won't be the last either. People are far too gullible to pass up such a trick.

[Kryptonite Man]

Believe what you will but really man, do your research. I'm not getting this from IS or Michel Moore or any other 'nutcase' media source (Well maybe Moore is an idiot), I'm going off well documneted facts. Records FROM the US government and the reports that were given by media/government/affected families of the suffering countries, most of which are still struggling today due to past US interference. And I'm not claiming that the US is the only one doing this, you've just the most resources to do so and with the least interferncd from your people (Not including dictators that is as they don't need to hide shit form their people) We live in rich countries because we play VERY dirty capitalism. (AKA Total capitalism) Canada is not as bad because our politicans just can't get away with it but we're certainly without dirty hands. This one reason why theres so many commies/socialists/anarchists out there, it is simply inherient in a capitalist system to maximize profit for yourself and if that is at the cost of others, all the better! Less competition., more complience.

 

Capitalism= BS

Unlike you I DO my homework and research based on the facts and not the bullshit liberal spin you adhere to. The fact that Moore is screwing up the effort to stop the terrorist fuck-ups only proves that he hates everything good that this country at least tries to stand for. You don't have a clue as to what you're babbling about , Eisenblatt. Quit sniffing glue and get a brain. And a life while you're at it.

[tizz]

Our actions now, in being the police of the world (and trying to make an extra buck at every global traffic stop) is exactly the kind of behavior that fuels terrorist attacks. We find to find a better way to deal than to simply trample the morals and values of every non-Christian non-democratic culture on earth (or at least every one that offers a way for us to gain off of them)

 

This has nothing to do with liberals or democrats, it has to do with extreme arrogance that WILL, in the end, be our downfall

[Anna Perenna]

He can't be sued because of the way his film is listed. It is considered art.

 

Where do you get your "facts" from?

 

And, as usual (whenever you try to correct me), you're wrong.

 

His films are listed as "factual films" or "documentaries".

 

Generally, a documentary must meet the following five requirements:

(1) it must attempt to tell a true story in a non-dramatic fashion;

(2) it must appear to do so by presenting only factual evidence;

(3) it must not attempt to re-create the truth (though some would defend the validity of this method);

(4) it must claim objectivity;

(5) most importantly, (and perhaps most difficult to ascertain) it must, as closely as possible, present all factual evidence in its original context.

 

And the Academy Awards Guidelines (MM won an Oscar) state the following:

 

1. An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial re-enactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction.

 

He doesn't outright lie, he just cuts and splices in such a way that the film itself is deceitful.

 

Oh really?

 

I have seen the majority of his films, and as someone who can actually claim to have nothing to gain from taking a side (I'm neither Liberal nor Conservative - I'm not even American) I never saw his films as deceitful in any way. He simply chose to include footage that supported his subject matter.

 

He didn't "doctor" his footage at all.

 

And at least he doesn't try and present his opinion as FACT, without ever backing it up.

 

Back your shit up, please.

 

His lawyers make sure everything is within the limits of the law.

 

And don't all controversial documentary film makers? Morgan Spurlock, etc?

 

Everyone who has a problem with Michael Moore is either way too influenced by the desperate, lying, bullshit anti-Moore propaganda, or just plain pissed off about the massive impact he has.

 

He actually manages to sway people's opinions.

 

And so he should.

[eisanbt]

Unlike you I DO my homework and research based on the facts and not the bullshit liberal spin you adhere to. The fact that Moore is screwing up the effort to stop the terrorist fuck-ups only proves that he hates everything good that this country at least tries to stand for. You don't have a clue as to what you're babbling about , Eisenblatt. Quit sniffing glue and get a brain. And a life while you're at it.

 

Had you taken a moment to consider what i said, I DENOUNCED michel moore as he is as much of an idiot as anyone. I hardly read any media but the local paper, which is right winged for reference, and base my opinions on documents. All of this was already stated in my last post. Must a repeat myself a third time?

[Pinky]

He didn't "doctor" his footage at all.

 

Actually Anna, I feel obligated to point out that Moore does pull some fairly manipulative tactics in some of his films that are quite sketchy.

 

For example, in Bowling for Columbine he edits the film together in such a fashion that we're led to believe that he walked out of the bank with a gun on the same visit he opened the account to get his 'free gun'. In reality, that segment was shot over a couple weeks - he had to wait until a background check was completed before picking up the gun.

 

I generally think that Moore's work has declined in recent years. His first real film, "Roger and Me" I found to be interesting. With regards to that film, the fact of the matter is that American corporations feel very little social responsibility. Their obligation is only to their shareholders. In the eyes of GM, closing down the plants in Flint was a necessary evil to help boost the bottom line. Interestingly, this attitude isn't pervasive everywhere else in the developed world. For example, the Japanese have a dramatically more stakeholder-oriented disposition. They're very hesitant to downsize simply to boost profits. They like to keep production facilities inside the country. Only recently have they begun to loosen their resistance to foreign direct investment, too. Germans, to a lesser extent, embrace 'social capitalism' - they're not as cut-throat as Americans are with regard to the bottom line. So really, Moore's criticisms in the film are somewhat moot. Sorry, but that's just the way American corporations are... they see social responsibilty as belonging in the realm of government, not the market.

 

Anyways, Moore's more recent films have been too bias for my liking. Yes, while technically falling under the definition of documentary, his last couple entries have been nauseatingly bias. They lack any sort of real objectivity to them. That's not to say I necessarily disagree with what he says... I do believe the Iraq war was a mistake, and I think that gun laws in America are a fukking joke. But Bowling for Columbine and F9/11 felt like Moore was trying to force-feed gullible idiots their opinions. What I hated most is how he tried to portray everything in black and white terms, without giving enough substancial material for the audience to make up their own minds. I mean, his message in F9/11 can be summed up as: Bush and Co. = evil, anti-war protestors, democrats and everyone killed in Iraq = Good.

[tizz]

UMMM I am sorry, but although I know some pretty daft people, I have yet to meet one that actually thought he came out of the bank with a gun on the same day. Besides DODO, even if yo DID think that, how would explain everyone in different clothes? Everyone has already conceded that he worked truth to his advantage, but I have yet to understand how someone can bitch about Moore doing it, but praise Bush for the exact same bullshit? At least Moore is entertaining and actually knows how to speak the language. (Dear Santa, this year for Christmas I want someone to send GW bush to toastmasters!!!!!!!!!! His fuckups are not even funny anymore, they are just painful!)

[Kryptonite Man]

Had you taken a moment to consider what i said, I DENOUNCED michel moore as he is as much of an idiot as anyone. I hardly read any media but the local paper, which is right winged for reference, and base my opinions on documents. All of this was already stated in my last post. Must a repeat myself a third time?

My mistake. It's just that Micael Moore gets me so riled, I can't see straight. I apologize.