Guest Gunner Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On 21 Apr 2007 20:57:16 -0700, bongblaster54@yahoo.com wrote: >> -- >> Notan- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >AMERICAN SHEEP SOLDIERS IN IRAQ, ARE SHEEP GETTING MASSACRED Back in your box, bonghead <plink> Gunner "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. -- Grover Norquist Quote
Guest Gunner Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 23:01:57 -0500, Lawrence Glickman <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote: >On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:51:13 -0600, Notan ><notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> >>61 years old and still using phrases like "pizza face." >> >>Impressive. > >I think I know what you need. A good smackdown. Somebody to whup on >your ass until a fire gets lit in your belly. And then you start >fighting back. > >I know it sounds a little harsh, but I think that might do the job. >Somebody to thump on you until that instinct to survive causes you >to wake up and fight back. > >You see, if you DON'T fight back, you're going to get the shit beat >out of you, because the perp gets his jollies off making your face >look like the ass end of a donkey. If you DO fight back, you still >end up looking like shit, but so does the perp! So...which way do you >want it to be? > >Keeping in mind one thing. When the shit hits the fan, and it is time >to ACT, you ARE going to get hurt. There are a lot worse things than >getting hurt. So you go into battle KNOWING you are going to get >hurt, you get over that idea, and get on with the job of taking down >the opposition. > >In some situations, you know you're going to DIE. Like that Jewish >Holocaust Survivor Professor who kept a door closed so that Cho >couldn't get inside the room to kill more students. He knew he was >going to die. He took the bullets through the closed door. What a >GODLY MAN. You and I should kiss his feet. We should bow to him on >bended knee, because he knew what being a grown up was all about. A >MENCH! Balls of steel. Fire in the gut. Putting others safety >before his own. He is a Saint. There should be more MEN like him in >our tribe. Don't shame us by being a pussy. > >Lg Indeed. The fellow deserves a High Kadish. Gunner "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. -- Grover Norquist Quote
Guest 0:-] Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >Lawrence Glickman wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >> >>> 0:-] wrote: >>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have charged the nut >>>>>>>>>> he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and I'm sure >>>>>>>>> he did) >>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for the events >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody would have >>>>>>>> tackled him before he needed to reload. If young people can't cover 15 >>>>>>>> to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in serious need of physical >>>>>>>> conditioning. >>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a computer. >>>>>> Nope. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>> >>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at least was >>>>>> shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>> <snip> >>>>> >>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the same, >>>>> there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the other. >>>>> >>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>> >>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two scenarios >>>> are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop me. Does it you? >>>> >>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>> approximations? >>>> >>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>> >>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight back >>>> increase their odds of survival and those that fight back ARMED >>>> increase their chances even more. >>>> >>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various scenarios >>>> where fighting back could save lives, each different than the prior >>>> ones, now would you? >>>> >>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent or >>>> potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the day? >>>> >>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's hopeless to >>>> fight back and cowering in approaching death is more sensible? >>>> >>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>> >>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue armed. >>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker isn't >>> better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances where it's >>> not. >>> >>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>> >>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the people >>> had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the people, and a >>> multitude of other variables, there's no way to know what a "stand" would >>> have resulted in. It's possible they did try to rush him. >>> >>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what the >>> outcome would have been. >>> >>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's nothing >>> but speculation. >> >> News Bulletin for Notan: >> >> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >> ammo. >> >> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >> >> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >> die. > >Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >where everything is bolted down? Doesn't matter. My college texts would have been horrific weapons had I chosen to use them for that purpose. Have you seen any skinny light college texts? Most people carry hard electronics with them these days. Book bags loaded down with whatever. I've never seen a room, not even in a monastery, that did not have something in it that could be a weapon if one was determined to fight. People will flinch even if you throw a pillow at them. There's your chance. Kane Quote
Guest Notan Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Gunner wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> > wrote: > >>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>> >>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >>> ammo. >>> >>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>> >>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >>> die. >> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >> where everything is bolted down? >> >> -- >> Notan > > Unload a fire extingusher in his face or direction and under cover of > the cloud..the rest of the pack do the same and then beat him to death > with the extingusher. Yes..people may have been shot. Even killed. And > he would be dead and unable to kill more. > > You saying you wouldnt take a bullet to prevent kids from being > murdered? I think I would, but until actually forced into that scenario, I couldn't guarantee it. -- Notan Quote
Guest 0:-] Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:47:38 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >Lawrence Glickman wrote: > ><snip> > >> It was a classroom. But how would you like to be the target of 30 >> notebook computers thrown at you with extreme prejudice. All the >> books that were available, equals a bag of bricks for each student. >> >> You need two things to survive. >> >> Guts and brains. > >Somehow, y'all know exactly what should have been done, without >any clue as to what might have been done. If anything. You haven't offered anything at all. Does that mean that you suggest not doing anything other than cowering? I wonder how many would have died at the hand of Kip Kinkel if those few teens, a think about four or five of them, hand't braved his gunfire, taken a shot, and tackled him anyway. He was well armed with plenty of ammunition. > >Isn't armchair, after-the-fact quarterbacking a wonderful thing. In fact yes. Good scientists, and clear thinkers do it all the time. As sure as someone does win the lottery, someone will be faced (much more likely) a violent life threatening confrontation one day. One can just trust they'll do the thing most likely to allow them to survive and blithely ignore any thought about it, or one can know that thinking ahead might be the very thing that will save them and others. >Most of you would probably just shit yourselves, if ever put in >a similar situation. Could be. I doubt have a drawer full of shit would stop me from acting violently in defense though. I recall an army sometime in history that was infected with dysentery, who fought with no pants...and won. As an atheist I find life an extremely precious commodity...for I know I get ONLY one of them. So I'll shit and fight. If need be. You, apparently, would rather cower and hope you won't shit when your turn comes for the next bullet from a "Cho," is that not correct? Quote
Guest Notan Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 0:-] wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan > <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>> >>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have charged the nut >>>>>>>>>>> he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>> he did) >>>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for the events >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody would have >>>>>>>>> tackled him before he needed to reload. If young people can't cover 15 >>>>>>>>> to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in serious need of physical >>>>>>>>> conditioning. >>>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a computer. >>>>>>> Nope. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at least was >>>>>>> shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the same, >>>>>> there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>>> >>>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two scenarios >>>>> are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop me. Does it you? >>>>> >>>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>>> approximations? >>>>> >>>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>>> >>>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight back >>>>> increase their odds of survival and those that fight back ARMED >>>>> increase their chances even more. >>>>> >>>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various scenarios >>>>> where fighting back could save lives, each different than the prior >>>>> ones, now would you? >>>>> >>>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent or >>>>> potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the day? >>>>> >>>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's hopeless to >>>>> fight back and cowering in approaching death is more sensible? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>>> >>>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue armed. >>>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker isn't >>>> better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances where it's >>>> not. >>>> >>>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>>> >>>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the people >>>> had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the people, and a >>>> multitude of other variables, there's no way to know what a "stand" would >>>> have resulted in. It's possible they did try to rush him. >>>> >>>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what the >>>> outcome would have been. >>>> >>>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's nothing >>>> but speculation. >>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>> >>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >>> ammo. >>> >>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>> >>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >>> die. >> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >> where everything is bolted down? > > Doesn't matter. My college texts would have been horrific weapons had > I chosen to use them for that purpose. > > Have you seen any skinny light college texts? > > Most people carry hard electronics with them these days. > > Book bags loaded down with whatever. > > I've never seen a room, not even in a monastery, that did not have > something in it that could be a weapon if one was determined to fight. > > People will flinch even if you throw a pillow at them. There's your > chance. With all these "should haves," the question remains, why did they all die? -- Notan Quote
Guest Gunner Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:38:58 -0400, Imus Limbaugh <llimbaught@aol.com> wrote: > >Myth: The Second Amendment guarantees the individual right to own a gun. > >Fact: The Supreme Court has always interpreted this as a state's militia's >right, not an individual's. False THE SUPREME COURT'S THIRTY-FIVE OTHER GUN CASES: WHAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT David B. Kopel [FNa1] Saint Louis University Public Law Review 1999 Symposium, Gun Control 99 Copyright Quote
Guest Notan Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 0:-] wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:47:38 -0600, Notan > <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >>> It was a classroom. But how would you like to be the target of 30 >>> notebook computers thrown at you with extreme prejudice. All the >>> books that were available, equals a bag of bricks for each student. >>> >>> You need two things to survive. >>> >>> Guts and brains. >> Somehow, y'all know exactly what should have been done, without >> any clue as to what might have been done. If anything. > > You haven't offered anything at all. Does that mean that you suggest > not doing anything other than cowering? > > I wonder how many would have died at the hand of Kip Kinkel if those > few teens, a think about four or five of them, hand't braved his > gunfire, taken a shot, and tackled him anyway. He was well armed with > plenty of ammunition. > >> Isn't armchair, after-the-fact quarterbacking a wonderful thing. > > In fact yes. Good scientists, and clear thinkers do it all the time. > > As sure as someone does win the lottery, someone will be faced (much > more likely) a violent life threatening confrontation one day. > > One can just trust they'll do the thing most likely to allow them to > survive and blithely ignore any thought about it, or one can know that > thinking ahead might be the very thing that will save them and others. > >> Most of you would probably just shit yourselves, if ever put in >> a similar situation. > > Could be. I doubt have a drawer full of shit would stop me from acting > violently in defense though. > > I recall an army sometime in history that was infected with dysentery, > who fought with no pants...and won. > > As an atheist I find life an extremely precious commodity...for I know > I get ONLY one of them. So I'll shit and fight. If need be. > > You, apparently, would rather cower and hope you won't shit when your > turn comes for the next bullet from a "Cho," is that not correct? Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I wouldn't fight? -- Notan Quote
Guest Notan Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Gunner wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:51:13 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> > wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:13:58 -0600, Notan >>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>> >>>> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:47:38 -0600, Notan >>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>> It was a classroom. But how would you like to be the target of 30 >>>>>>> notebook computers thrown at you with extreme prejudice. All the >>>>>>> books that were available, equals a bag of bricks for each student. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You need two things to survive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Guts and brains. >>>>>> Somehow, y'all know exactly what should have been done, without >>>>>> any clue as to what might have been done. If anything. >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn't armchair, after-the-fact quarterbacking a wonderful thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most of you would probably just shit yourselves, if ever put in >>>>>> a similar situation. >>>>> I am tempted to call you a FUCKING NITWIT, but won't because that >>>>> would reflect badly on myself. >>>>> >>>>> I have looked down the wrong end of a gun barrel more times than you >>>>> have jacked off. I've lived to tell the tale because I have been >>>>> ARMED WITH A KNIFE. IOW, you try to kill me, you are coming along for >>>>> the ride. >>>>> >>>>> The time I faced down 5 full grown men, college age, whilst alone in >>>>> the wilderness, where my remains wouldn't have been found except by a >>>>> dog. >>>>> >>>>> The times in the City I've been chased through streets and alleyways >>>>> by madmen with bad thoughts in their heads. You haven't a fucking >>>>> clue. I'm 61, alive, and will KILL anybody who tries to bring harm to >>>>> myself or my family. I will kill them dead. I have little to live >>>>> for except to try to wake you freaks out of your drug-induced comas. >>>>> >>>>> I was hitch hiking on night and the guy who picked me up pulled a gun >>>>> on me and held it to my head. I pulled my razor knife and held it >>>>> tight to his jugular vein. I commanded him to stop the vehicle and >>>>> let me out or we BOTH were going to die. If he didn't get that bullet >>>>> placement just right, my muscular reflex would have slit him open in >>>>> the middle of nowhere and he would have died from exsanguination. >>>>> >>>>> I've been in more fights than you have dreamed of. Some for my Life. >>>>> You cannot say the same. I won them all, in one way or another, and >>>>> have the scars to prove it. >>>> And, yet, you still live in what describe as a bad part of town (to say >>>> the least), and probably continue to put yourself in situations where >>>> you can "prove yourself." >>>> >>>> I am tempted to call you a FUCKING NITWIT, but won't because that would >>>> reflect badly on myself. >>> Are you a 13 year old pizza face like I thought?? >>> >>> prove myself? I don't have to prove anything to anybody, except that >>> if they try to harm me, they're going to regret it for the brief few >>> minutes they have left on earth. >>> >>> Some day you might grow up, but I highly doubt it. You may grow old, >>> but I don't think you have what it takes to grow up. >> 61 years old and still using phrases like "pizza face." >> >> Impressive. > > > And apparently accurate. Seems The Glick hit a nerve. Huh? -- Notan Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Lawrence Glickman wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:47:38 -0600, Notan > <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >>> It was a classroom. But how would you like to be the target of 30 >>> notebook computers thrown at you with extreme prejudice. All the >>> books that were available, equals a bag of bricks for each student. >>> >>> You need two things to survive. >>> >>> Guts and brains. >> >> Somehow, y'all know exactly what should have been done, without >> any clue as to what might have been done. If anything. >> >> Isn't armchair, after-the-fact quarterbacking a wonderful thing. >> >> Most of you would probably just shit yourselves, if ever put in >> a similar situation. > > I am tempted to call you a FUCKING NITWIT, but won't because that > would reflect badly on myself. > > I have looked down the wrong end of a gun barrel more times than you > have jacked off. I've lived to tell the tale because I have been > ARMED WITH A KNIFE. IOW, you try to kill me, you are coming along for > the ride. > > The time I faced down 5 full grown men, college age, whilst alone in > the wilderness, where my remains wouldn't have been found except by a > dog. > > The times in the City I've been chased through streets and alleyways > by madmen with bad thoughts in their heads. You haven't a fucking > clue. I'm 61, alive, and will KILL anybody who tries to bring harm to > myself or my family. I will kill them dead. I have little to live > for except to try to wake you freaks out of your drug-induced comas. > > I was hitch hiking on night and the guy who picked me up pulled a gun > on me and held it to my head. I pulled my razor knife and held it > tight to his jugular vein. I commanded him to stop the vehicle and > let me out or we BOTH were going to die. If he didn't get that bullet > placement just right, my muscular reflex would have slit him open in > the middle of nowhere and he would have died from exsanguination. > > I've been in more fights than you have dreamed of. Some for my Life. > You cannot say the same. I won them all, in one way or another, and > have the scars to prove it. > > Lg I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I know plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in the situations you described. What on earth were you doing wrong that you kept finding yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city high school and even there we have some kids who are in fights every week and others who have rarely or never been in fights. I always tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in fights, you are doing something wrong; you are doing something to create them. Your post reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and contempt for anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. It sounds like you are compelled to create a fight and survive to convince yourself that you have any value. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like. -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Captain Compassion wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan > <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>> >>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have >>>>>>>>>>> charged the nut he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure he did) >>>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for >>>>>>>>>> the events that >>>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>>>>>>>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload. If young >>>>>>>>> people can't cover 15 to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in >>>>>>>>> serious need of physical conditioning. >>>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a >>>>>>>> computer. Nope. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at >>>>>>> least was shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the >>>>>> same, there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the >>>>>> other. >>>>>> >>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>>> >>>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two >>>>> scenarios are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop >>>>> me. Does it you? >>>>> >>>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>>> approximations? >>>>> >>>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>>> >>>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight >>>>> back increase their odds of survival and those that fight back >>>>> ARMED increase their chances even more. >>>>> >>>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various >>>>> scenarios where fighting back could save lives, each different >>>>> than the prior ones, now would you? >>>>> >>>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent >>>>> or potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the >>>>> day? >>>>> >>>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's >>>>> hopeless to fight back and cowering in approaching death is more >>>>> sensible? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>>> >>>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue >>>>> armed. >>>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker >>>> isn't better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances >>>> where it's not. >>>> >>>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. >>>> Somebody would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>>> >>>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the >>>> people had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the >>>> people, and a multitude of other variables, there's no way to know >>>> what a "stand" would have resulted in. It's possible they did >>>> try to rush him. >>>> >>>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what >>>> the outcome would have been. >>>> >>>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's >>>> nothing but speculation. >>> >>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>> >>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it >>> have been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a >>> room full of very hard material objects, some of which must have >>> been in and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the >>> same time whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to >>> slow down the ammo. >>> >>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>> >>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or >>> they WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill >>> them or die. >> >> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >> where everything is bolted down? > > Then you throw books, brief cases, purses, cell phones, IPods..... FWIW, I throw like a girl (and indeed am one). Nothing I throw winds up anywhere near its target. I imagine most of those kids were in utter shock. This was completely unexpected and once they realized what was going on, most dove for the floor to protect themselves -- a powerful instinct. I don't understand people who are blaming the victims here, many of whom never even saw it coming. -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Lawrence Glickman wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 21:51:13 -0600, Notan > <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: > >> >> 61 years old and still using phrases like "pizza face." >> >> Impressive. > > I think I know what you need. A good smackdown. Somebody to whup on > your ass until a fire gets lit in your belly. And then you start > fighting back. > > I know it sounds a little harsh, but I think that might do the job. > Somebody to thump on you until that instinct to survive causes you > to wake up and fight back. > > You see, if you DON'T fight back, you're going to get the shit beat > out of you, because the perp gets his jollies off making your face > look like the ass end of a donkey. If you DO fight back, you still > end up looking like shit, but so does the perp! So...which way do you > want it to be? > > Keeping in mind one thing. When the shit hits the fan, and it is time > to ACT, you ARE going to get hurt. There are a lot worse things than > getting hurt. So you go into battle KNOWING you are going to get > hurt, you get over that idea, and get on with the job of taking down > the opposition. > > In some situations, you know you're going to DIE. Like that Jewish > Holocaust Survivor Professor who kept a door closed so that Cho > couldn't get inside the room to kill more students. He knew he was > going to die. He took the bullets through the closed door. What a > GODLY MAN. You and I should kiss his feet. We should bow to him on > bended knee, because he knew what being a grown up was all about. A > MENCH! Balls of steel. Fire in the gut. Putting others safety > before his own. He is a Saint. There should be more MEN like him in > our tribe. Don't shame us by being a pussy. He was an incredible man, a true hero. One thing I thought was if the Nazis had killed him, all those kids in his class might have died because he wasn't there to save them. It was kind of an "It's A Wonderful Life" realization, when George realizes if he hadn't saved his brother, his brother wouldn't have been alive to save all the men on the transport and they would have died. The school really needs to make a scholarship in the name of that heroic professor, or name a building after him, or something. He showed how truly great humans can be on a day when we saw how terrible they can be, too. > > Lg -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest Captain Compassion Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:16:02 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: >Captain Compassion wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan >> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >> >>> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have >>>>>>>>>>>> charged the nut he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure he did) >>>>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for >>>>>>>>>>> the events that >>>>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>>>>>>>>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload. If young >>>>>>>>>> people can't cover 15 to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in >>>>>>>>>> serious need of physical conditioning. >>>>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a >>>>>>>>> computer. Nope. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at >>>>>>>> least was shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the >>>>>>> same, there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the >>>>>>> other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two >>>>>> scenarios are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop >>>>>> me. Does it you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>>>> approximations? >>>>>> >>>>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>>>> >>>>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight >>>>>> back increase their odds of survival and those that fight back >>>>>> ARMED increase their chances even more. >>>>>> >>>>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various >>>>>> scenarios where fighting back could save lives, each different >>>>>> than the prior ones, now would you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent >>>>>> or potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the >>>>>> day? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's >>>>>> hopeless to fight back and cowering in approaching death is more >>>>>> sensible? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>>>> >>>>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue >>>>>> armed. >>>>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker >>>>> isn't better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances >>>>> where it's not. >>>>> >>>>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. >>>>> Somebody would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>>>> >>>>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the >>>>> people had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the >>>>> people, and a multitude of other variables, there's no way to know >>>>> what a "stand" would have resulted in. It's possible they did >>>>> try to rush him. >>>>> >>>>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what >>>>> the outcome would have been. >>>>> >>>>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's >>>>> nothing but speculation. >>>> >>>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>>> >>>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it >>>> have been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a >>>> room full of very hard material objects, some of which must have >>>> been in and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the >>>> same time whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to >>>> slow down the ammo. >>>> >>>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>>> >>>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or >>>> they WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill >>>> them or die. >>> >>> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >>> where everything is bolted down? >> >> Then you throw books, brief cases, purses, cell phones, IPods..... > >FWIW, I throw like a girl (and indeed am one). Nothing I throw winds up >anywhere near its target. I imagine most of those kids were in utter shock. >This was completely unexpected and once they realized what was going on, >most dove for the floor to protect themselves -- a powerful instinct. I >don't understand people who are blaming the victims here, many of whom never >even saw it coming. In the early 70s I went to college on the GI bill some of my classes half of the students were Nam vets. If a gentleman of Asian persuasion came into the class shooting I suspect the results would have been different. -- There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their cook fires. -- Captain Compassion. Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS "Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant. "Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life. --Will Durant Joseph R. Darancette daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net Quote
Guest Lawrence Glickman Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:15:54 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: >I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I know >plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in the situations >you described. What on earth were you doing wrong that you kept finding >yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city high school and even there we >have some kids who are in fights every week and others who have rarely or >never been in fights. I always tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in >fights, you are doing something wrong; you are doing something to create >them. Your post reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and >contempt for anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. It sounds >like you are compelled to create a fight and survive to convince yourself >that you have any value. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like. You could be wrong. Big of you to admit to that. I was on my own and on the street at a very young age, after my dysfunctional family fell apart and I was left with no choice in the matter but to leave that train wreck and head out on my own. From that early age on, it was predator and prey, with myself being the prey living in a large city. Yes I am proud to still be around. Lesser men/women wouldn't have made it (survived). Lg Quote
Guest Lawrence Glickman Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:18:50 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: >> In some situations, you know you're going to DIE. Like that Jewish >> Holocaust Survivor Professor who kept a door closed so that Cho >> couldn't get inside the room to kill more students. He knew he was >> going to die. He took the bullets through the closed door. What a >> GODLY MAN. You and I should kiss his feet. We should bow to him on >> bended knee, because he knew what being a grown up was all about. A >> MENCH! Balls of steel. Fire in the gut. Putting others safety >> before his own. He is a Saint. There should be more MEN like him in >> our tribe. Don't shame us by being a pussy. ============================================================== >He was an incredible man, a true hero. One thing I thought was if the Nazis >had killed him, all those kids in his class might have died because he >wasn't there to save them. It was kind of an "It's A Wonderful Life" >realization, when George realizes if he hadn't saved his brother, his >brother wouldn't have been alive to save all the men on the transport and >they would have died. The school really needs to make a scholarship in the >name of that heroic professor, or name a building after him, or something. >He showed how truly great humans can be on a day when we saw how terrible >they can be, too. >nimue I expect there will be a building renamed or rededicated for him. Or there should be. His son, as well as the rest of the school, should be very very proud of his heroism. Nobody wants to be in a situation like that. Nobody ever wants to die. If there was value to Life, this man knew more about it than most others, having been a concentration camp survivor. Blessed be his name. Amen. Lg Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Lawrence Glickman wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:15:54 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I >> know plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in >> the situations you described. What on earth were you doing wrong >> that you kept finding yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city >> high school and even there we have some kids who are in fights every >> week and others who have rarely or never been in fights. I always >> tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in fights, you are doing >> something wrong; you are doing something to create them. Your post >> reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and contempt for >> anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. It sounds like >> you are compelled to create a fight and survive to convince yourself >> that you have any value. I could be wrong, but that's what it >> sounds like. > > You could be wrong. Big of you to admit to that. I was on my own and > on the street at a very young age, after my dysfunctional family > fell apart and I was left with no choice in the matter but to leave > that train wreck and head out on my own. It sounds like you have had a hard life and I feel for you about that, but I know other people who have hard lives, too, and haven't had to fight the way you have. Again, I teach in an inner-city school and I have seen kids who have been through absolute hell but still, as teenagers, have learned how to survive by succeeding, not fighting. They've learned to live their lives in such a way that they stay out of those situations and even though that isn't easy, they have managed it. > > From that early age on, it was predator and prey, with myself being > the prey living in a large city. Oh, lord. I hear your story from the gang-bangers all the time. So dramatic. Is that all you have to be proud of? Kids in the exact same situations (or worse) as yours or those gang-bangers have learned to navigate life in such a way that they avoid that and succeed. I am NOT saying it's easy to do that. In fact, it is probably more difficult to do that than it is to fight, which is almost expected -- that's why I really respect the kids who have learned how not to fight, how to avoid fighting and bad situations and just do their best. > > Yes I am proud to still be around. Lesser men/women wouldn't have > made it (survived). Sigh. What does <<lesser men/women>> mean? You have such pride in your fighting skills that I think you have created fights to prove yourself to yourself. As I have said, there are other ways than fighting. That is not the only way to survive and I still say if you continually find yourself in those situations, you are doing something wrong. > > Lg -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest Lawrence Glickman Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:27:39 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> wrote: >Lawrence Glickman wrote: >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:15:54 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I >>> know plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in >>> the situations you described. What on earth were you doing wrong >>> that you kept finding yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city >>> high school and even there we have some kids who are in fights every >>> week and others who have rarely or never been in fights. I always >>> tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in fights, you are doing >>> something wrong; you are doing something to create them. Your post >>> reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and contempt for >>> anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. It sounds like >>> you are compelled to create a fight and survive to convince yourself >>> that you have any value. I could be wrong, but that's what it >>> sounds like. >> >> You could be wrong. Big of you to admit to that. I was on my own and >> on the street at a very young age, after my dysfunctional family >> fell apart and I was left with no choice in the matter but to leave >> that train wreck and head out on my own. > >It sounds like you have had a hard life and I feel for you about that, but I >know other people who have hard lives, too, and haven't had to fight the way >you have. Again, I teach in an inner-city school and I have seen kids who >have been through absolute hell but still, as teenagers, have learned how to >survive by succeeding, not fighting. They've learned to live their lives in >such a way that they stay out of those situations and even though that isn't >easy, they have managed it. >> >> From that early age on, it was predator and prey, with myself being >> the prey living in a large city. > >Oh, lord. I hear your story from the gang-bangers all the time. So >dramatic. Is that all you have to be proud of? Kids in the exact same >situations (or worse) as yours or those gang-bangers have learned to >navigate life in such a way that they avoid that and succeed. I am NOT >saying it's easy to do that. In fact, it is probably more difficult to do >that than it is to fight, which is almost expected -- that's why I really >respect the kids who have learned how not to fight, how to avoid fighting >and bad situations and just do their best. >> >> Yes I am proud to still be around. Lesser men/women wouldn't have >> made it (survived). > >Sigh. What does <<lesser men/women>> mean? You have such pride in your >fighting skills that I think you have created fights to prove yourself to >yourself. As I have said, there are other ways than fighting. That is not >the only way to survive and I still say if you continually find yourself in >those situations, you are doing something wrong. >> >> Lg Yes you can hide under your bed or in your closet. It is highly safe in there. I go out into the world, where it is less safe. I go where I want to, when I want to. I give myself this freedom. I EARN this freedom, and everything that goes with it. To you that is a mistake. I should spend my entire life in a library. Get fucking real. Lg Quote
Guest Myal Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 nimue wrote: > Lawrence Glickman wrote: > >>On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:15:54 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> >>wrote: >> >> >>>I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I >>>know plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in >>>the situations you described. What on earth were you doing wrong >>>that you kept finding yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city >>>high school and even there we have some kids who are in fights every >>>week and others who have rarely or never been in fights. I always >>>tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in fights, you are doing >>>something wrong; you are doing something to create them. Your post >>>reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and contempt for >>>anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. It sounds like >>>you are compelled to create a fight and survive to convince yourself >>>that you have any value. I could be wrong, but that's what it >>>sounds like. >> >>You could be wrong. Big of you to admit to that. I was on my own and >>on the street at a very young age, after my dysfunctional family >>fell apart and I was left with no choice in the matter but to leave >>that train wreck and head out on my own. > > > It sounds like you have had a hard life and I feel for you about that, but I > know other people who have hard lives, too, and haven't had to fight the way > you have. Again, I teach in an inner-city school and I have seen kids who > have been through absolute hell but still, as teenagers, have learned how to > survive by succeeding, not fighting. They've learned to live their lives in > such a way that they stay out of those situations and even though that isn't > easy, they have managed it. > There is likelyhood that they havent been in or acted / reacted to the exact same situations or circumstance tho . everyone and evryones life is remarkably unique , as is what they have had to do to survive it at times >>From that early age on, it was predator and prey, with myself being >>the prey living in a large city. > > > Oh, lord. I hear your story from the gang-bangers all the time. So > dramatic. gangbangers are not part of the "other people" you mentioned above? Is that all you have to be proud of? Kids in the exact same > situations (or worse) as yours or those gang-bangers have learned to > navigate life in such a way that they avoid that and succeed. I am NOT > saying it's easy to do that. how did they learn this tho ? did you teach them or do they experience it themselves ? IOW , are people stil taking advantage of kids or trying to , and are kids still having to physicaly protect themselves if they wish not to be taken advantage of ? In fact, it is probably more difficult to do > that than it is to fight, which is almost expected -- that's why I really > respect the kids who have learned how not to fight, how to avoid fighting > and bad situations and just do their best. > not all situations are the same , often its a choice between comply and be bashed / mugged / raped or fight ..... which one does learning not to fight fit into ? people doing the bad things have often done it for a long time ad are used to trapping their victims kids are still learning aout what are danger signs , usualyby experience . >>Yes I am proud to still be around. Lesser men/women wouldn't have >>made it (survived). > > > Sigh. What does <<lesser men/women>> mean? You have such pride in your > fighting skills that I think you have created fights to prove yourself to > yourself. As I have said, there are other ways than fighting. yep , bend over and take it like a man !! Having spent time myself on the street as a kid , I know its not all about "say no to bullying" and working at succeding ... succeeding often means just being alive , or having made it to the ER in time That is not > the only way to survive and I still say if you continually find yourself in > those situations, you are doing something wrong. > Once youve been there , you trynot to go there again , but having been there leaves a big enoughimpression on you that you do stay ready for incase it does come on you again somewhere , somehow . BTDT , even tho its been years since anything like it , Im ready incase STILL .... >>Lg > > Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Lawrence Glickman wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:27:39 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:15:54 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I have to say, it sure sounds like you have been living wrong. I >>>> know plenty of people your age who have never found themselves in >>>> the situations you described. What on earth were you doing wrong >>>> that you kept finding yourself in them? I teach at an inner-city >>>> high school and even there we have some kids who are in fights >>>> every week and others who have rarely or never been in fights. I >>>> always tell my kids if you keep finding yourself in fights, you >>>> are doing something wrong; you are doing something to create them. >>>> Your post reeks of pride in yourself for having those fights and >>>> contempt for anyone who hasn't fought as much as you. Foolish. >>>> It sounds like you are compelled to create a fight and survive to >>>> convince yourself that you have any value. I could be wrong, but >>>> that's what it sounds like. >>> >>> You could be wrong. Big of you to admit to that. I was on my own >>> and on the street at a very young age, after my dysfunctional >>> family fell apart and I was left with no choice in the matter but >>> to leave that train wreck and head out on my own. >> >> It sounds like you have had a hard life and I feel for you about >> that, but I know other people who have hard lives, too, and haven't >> had to fight the way you have. Again, I teach in an inner-city >> school and I have seen kids who have been through absolute hell but >> still, as teenagers, have learned how to survive by succeeding, not >> fighting. They've learned to live their lives in such a way that >> they stay out of those situations and even though that isn't easy, >> they have managed it. >>> >>> From that early age on, it was predator and prey, with myself being >>> the prey living in a large city. >> >> Oh, lord. I hear your story from the gang-bangers all the time. So >> dramatic. Is that all you have to be proud of? Kids in the exact >> same situations (or worse) as yours or those gang-bangers have >> learned to navigate life in such a way that they avoid that and >> succeed. I am NOT saying it's easy to do that. In fact, it is >> probably more difficult to do that than it is to fight, which is >> almost expected -- that's why I really respect the kids who have >> learned how not to fight, how to avoid fighting and bad situations >> and just do their best. >>> >>> Yes I am proud to still be around. Lesser men/women wouldn't have >>> made it (survived). >> >> Sigh. What does <<lesser men/women>> mean? You have such pride in >> your fighting skills that I think you have created fights to prove >> yourself to yourself. As I have said, there are other ways than >> fighting. That is not the only way to survive and I still say if >> you continually find yourself in those situations, you are doing >> something wrong. >>> >>> Lg > > Yes you can hide under your bed or in your closet. When did I say to do that? When? Never. That is NOT the only other option. Heck, the future valedictorian of the high school where I work has been raised pretty much in homeless shelters by a mother who honestly is pretty dreadful. This kid has been very successful in spite of all, is very involved in school activities and trips, and never fights. > It is highly safe > in there. I go out into the world, where it is less safe. So? So do my successful inner-city kids. Every day. They go from their neighborhoods to school and back just like the gang-bangers.They are all from the same neighborhood, after all. However, the non-fighters go other places, too, such as cultural events in the city -- Broadway shows, concerts, museums, etc. Some have even been to Europe. Trust me when I say that we don't choose the fighters for these trips. The kids who have learned to survive without fighting go to way, way more places than the kids who don't know how to do anything without fighting. Well, the gang-bangers do tend to see jail while the other kids don't. > I go where > I want to, when I want to. I give myself this freedom. Good for you. However, one does not have to fight to do that. The non-fighting kids are in the exact same neighborhoods as the fighters. Trust me when I say the non-fighters are going places and the fighters aren't. > I EARN this > freedom, and everything that goes with it. I guess you earned it in the only way YOU could. However, that certainly is not the only way. > > To you that is a mistake. No, going where you want is not a mistake. Creating fights is. >I should spend my entire life in a library. When did I say that? Never. If you admit that you can survive and thrive without fighting all the time you will have to admit you have made some bad choices and that would just be too painful. > Get fucking real. I am real. Why don't you come work in a Title 1 school in Brooklyn, tough guy? > > Lg -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest nimue Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Lawrence Glickman wrote: > On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:18:50 -0400, "nimue" <cup_o_cakes@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>> In some situations, you know you're going to DIE. Like that Jewish >>> Holocaust Survivor Professor who kept a door closed so that Cho >>> couldn't get inside the room to kill more students. He knew he was >>> going to die. He took the bullets through the closed door. What a >>> GODLY MAN. You and I should kiss his feet. We should bow to him on >>> bended knee, because he knew what being a grown up was all about. A >>> MENCH! Balls of steel. Fire in the gut. Putting others safety >>> before his own. He is a Saint. There should be more MEN like him >>> in our tribe. Don't shame us by being a pussy. > > ============================================================== >> He was an incredible man, a true hero. One thing I thought was if >> the Nazis had killed him, all those kids in his class might have >> died because he wasn't there to save them. It was kind of an "It's >> A Wonderful Life" realization, when George realizes if he hadn't >> saved his brother, his brother wouldn't have been alive to save all >> the men on the transport and they would have died. The school >> really needs to make a scholarship in the name of that heroic >> professor, or name a building after him, or something. He showed how >> truly great humans can be on a day when we saw how terrible they can >> be, too. > >> nimue > > I expect there will be a building renamed or rededicated for him. Or > there should be. His son, as well as the rest of the school, should > be very very proud of his heroism. Nobody wants to be in a situation > like that. Nobody ever wants to die. If there was value to Life, > this man knew more about it than most others, having been a > concentration camp survivor. > > Blessed be his name. Amen. Although we are disagreeing on other things, I have to say we are in perfect agreement on this. I am just going to write the professor's name here so we don't forget it. His name was Liviu Librescu and he showed us all what true heroism is. Thank you for acknowledging him. > > Lg -- nimue Perspective and proportion are the first casualties of hysteria. Steven A. Shaw Quote
Guest Gunner Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:51:50 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >Gunner wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> >> wrote: >> >>>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>>> >>>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >>>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >>>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >>>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >>>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >>>> ammo. >>>> >>>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>>> >>>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >>>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >>>> die. >>> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >>> where everything is bolted down? >>> >>> -- >>> Notan >> >> Unload a fire extingusher in his face or direction and under cover of >> the cloud..the rest of the pack do the same and then beat him to death >> with the extingusher. Yes..people may have been shot. Even killed. And >> he would be dead and unable to kill more. >> >> You saying you wouldnt take a bullet to prevent kids from being >> murdered? > >I think I would, but until actually forced into that scenario, I couldn't >guarantee it. Fair answer. Ill go with that. No one ever knows how they will respond, truly, until the shit hits the fan. Which btw...is why smart folks do "game scenarios" in their heads. Think of it as "sports training". The same method used by golfers and tennis players. You play a match in your head..and it trains your back brain and muscles. Works quite well. Gunner "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. -- Grover Norquist Quote
Guest Gunner Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:56:43 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >0:-] wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan >> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >> >>> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have charged the nut >>>>>>>>>>>> he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>> he did) >>>>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for the events >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody would have >>>>>>>>>> tackled him before he needed to reload. If young people can't cover 15 >>>>>>>>>> to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in serious need of physical >>>>>>>>>> conditioning. >>>>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a computer. >>>>>>>> Nope. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at least was >>>>>>>> shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the same, >>>>>>> there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two scenarios >>>>>> are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop me. Does it you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>>>> approximations? >>>>>> >>>>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>>>> >>>>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight back >>>>>> increase their odds of survival and those that fight back ARMED >>>>>> increase their chances even more. >>>>>> >>>>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various scenarios >>>>>> where fighting back could save lives, each different than the prior >>>>>> ones, now would you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent or >>>>>> potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the day? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's hopeless to >>>>>> fight back and cowering in approaching death is more sensible? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>>>> >>>>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue armed. >>>>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker isn't >>>>> better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances where it's >>>>> not. >>>>> >>>>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>>>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>>>> >>>>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the people >>>>> had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the people, and a >>>>> multitude of other variables, there's no way to know what a "stand" would >>>>> have resulted in. It's possible they did try to rush him. >>>>> >>>>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what the >>>>> outcome would have been. >>>>> >>>>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's nothing >>>>> but speculation. >>>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>>> >>>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >>>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >>>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >>>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >>>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >>>> ammo. >>>> >>>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>>> >>>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >>>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >>>> die. >>> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >>> where everything is bolted down? >> >> Doesn't matter. My college texts would have been horrific weapons had >> I chosen to use them for that purpose. >> >> Have you seen any skinny light college texts? >> >> Most people carry hard electronics with them these days. >> >> Book bags loaded down with whatever. >> >> I've never seen a room, not even in a monastery, that did not have >> something in it that could be a weapon if one was determined to fight. >> >> People will flinch even if you throw a pillow at them. There's your >> chance. > >With all these "should haves," the question remains, why did they all die? Because they let themselves be killed. Unfortunately. Doesnt speak well for the culture they came from, or their parents lack of training them to "adapt, improvise, overcome" Gunner "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. -- Grover Norquist Quote
Guest Notan Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Gunner wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:56:43 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> > wrote: > >> 0:-] wrote: >>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan >>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>> >>>> Lawrence Glickman wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 19:36:57 -0600, Notan >>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 16:06:30 -0600, Notan >>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 0:-] wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:59:04 -0600, Notan >>>>>>>>> <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Notan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Omnipotent wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your right, if all the people in the room would have charged the nut >>>>>>>>>>>>> he wouldn't have reloaded the first time. >>>>>>>>>>>> What was the distance between Cho and those in the classroom? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If it was anything more than 10-15 feet, with practice (and I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>> he did) >>>>>>>>>>>> he'd have no problem loading a new magazine. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also remember that those in the classroom weren't ready for the events >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> followed... He was. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody would have >>>>>>>>>>> tackled him before he needed to reload. If young people can't cover 15 >>>>>>>>>>> to 20 feet in a few seconds they are in serious need of physical >>>>>>>>>>> conditioning. >>>>>>>>>> Easy to say, after the fact, from behind the security of a computer. >>>>>>>>> Nope. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/16/kinkel.arraign.update/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And Kip was stopped, in the middle of his shooting people in the >>>>>>>>> Thurston HS gym, by a group of boys that tackled him. One at least was >>>>>>>>> shot even before he nailed Kip. He fought anyway. >>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Notan." >>>>>>>> And unless the circumstances/scenarios/etc. were exactly the same, >>>>>>>> there's no way to say what worked in one would work in the other. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Try the real world, for a change, "Kane." >>>>>>> I do. I have. I will. Trust me on this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> R R R R R ... you just insisted that I cannot, since no two scenarios >>>>>>> are exact. Of course they aren't. That does not stop me. Does it you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why would you claim that one can't make good predictions based on >>>>>>> approximations? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These things are studied and certain outcomes ARE predictable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One such was made by the FBI: Those intended victims that fight back >>>>>>> increase their odds of survival and those that fight back ARMED >>>>>>> increase their chances even more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You wouldn't really want to claim that there are not various scenarios >>>>>>> where fighting back could save lives, each different than the prior >>>>>>> ones, now would you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did you read the link I posted a number of times today on violent or >>>>>>> potentially violent confrontations where fighting back won the day? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or do you need, to survive emotionally, the idea that it's hopeless to >>>>>>> fight back and cowering in approaching death is more sensible? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All different unduplicate scenarios that resulting in wins for the >>>>>>> armed intended victims, or someone that came to their rescue armed. >>>>>> I'm not saying that, in general, attempting to stop an attacker isn't >>>>>> better than just sitting back, but there are circumstances where it's >>>>>> not. >>>>>> >>>>>> You said, "They should have charged him while he was shooting. Somebody >>>>>> would have tackled him before he needed to reload..." >>>>>> >>>>>> Without knowing the layout of the room, the training, if any, the people >>>>>> had in self-defense, <again> how close Cho was to the people, and a >>>>>> multitude of other variables, there's no way to know what a "stand" would >>>>>> have resulted in. It's possible they did try to rush him. >>>>>> >>>>>> But your answer is an absolute. If they did this, this is what the >>>>>> outcome would have been. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unless you know something that no one else seems to know, it's nothing >>>>>> but speculation. >>>>> News Bulletin for Notan: >>>>> >>>>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have >>>>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room >>>>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in >>>>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time >>>>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the >>>>> ammo. >>>>> >>>>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. >>>>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. >>>>> >>>>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they >>>>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or >>>>> die. >>>> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, >>>> where everything is bolted down? >>> Doesn't matter. My college texts would have been horrific weapons had >>> I chosen to use them for that purpose. >>> >>> Have you seen any skinny light college texts? >>> >>> Most people carry hard electronics with them these days. >>> >>> Book bags loaded down with whatever. >>> >>> I've never seen a room, not even in a monastery, that did not have >>> something in it that could be a weapon if one was determined to fight. >>> >>> People will flinch even if you throw a pillow at them. There's your >>> chance. >> With all these "should haves," the question remains, why did they all die? > > > Because they let themselves be killed. > > Unfortunately. Doesnt speak well for the culture they came from, or > their parents lack of training them to "adapt, improvise, overcome" It's unfortunate that this is what society has come down to... The idea that, as a teenager , you have to be ready to fight for your life. Times have certainly changed. -- Notan Quote
Guest Shadowland Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On Apr 22, 12:54 pm, Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:51:50 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> > wrote: > > > > > > >Gunner wrote: > >> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 20:35:28 -0600, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> > >> wrote: > > >>>> News Bulletin for Notan: > > >>>> Every object in a room is a potential weapon. How hard would it have > >>>> been to throw tables and chairs at the perp? 30 people with a room > >>>> full of very hard material objects, some of which must have been in > >>>> and on their desks. All throwing shit at the perp at the same time > >>>> whilst rushing him with some table in front of you to slow down the > >>>> ammo. > > >>>> PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED TO REACT AGRESSIVELY WHEN ATTACKED. > >>>> SUBMISSION EQUALS DEATH. > > >>>> It is kill or be killed. Remember that Notan. You kill them, or they > >>>> WILL kill you. There is no choice in such a situation. Kill them or > >>>> die. > >>> Was it a classroom with tables and chairs? Or was it a lecture hall, > >>> where everything is bolted down? > > >>> -- > >>> Notan > > >> Unload a fire extingusher in his face or direction and under cover of > >> the cloud..the rest of the pack do the same and then beat him to death > >> with the extingusher. Yes..people may have been shot. Even killed. And > >> he would be dead and unable to kill more. > > >> You saying you wouldnt take a bullet to prevent kids from being > >> murdered? > > >I think I would, but until actually forced into that scenario, I couldn't > >guarantee it. > > Fair answer. Ill go with that. No one ever knows how they will respond, > truly, until the shit hits the fan. > > Which btw...is why smart folks do "game scenarios" in their heads. Think > of it as "sports training". The same method used by golfers and tennis > players. You play a match in your head..and it trains your back brain > and muscles. Works quite well. Right. Visualization. There's a famous work by a 18th century samurai who wrote that visualzation was essential for preparing for actual battle. He suggest one not only visualize sword movements and the like, but also imagine every wound and horror one would possibly encounter. Quote
Guest Bill Smith Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 On 20 Apr 2007 23:20:52 -0700, Luc <zx034blast56@bazooka.e4ward.com> wrote: >--forwarded post-- > > >>From what I gather, this Korean nutball took a .22 caliber pistol and >a 9 mm pistol to Virignia Tech and began shooting. Those are not high >powered, high-capacity magazine weapons. He shot two people, then >left, came back, and opened fire. He was locked in a classroom with >another sixty people who could not get out, and thus he shot them, >reloaded, shot them, reloaded, shot them, reloaded, probably five to >six times before he ran low on ammo and killed himself. > >Think about that. What group of people allows a gunman locked in a >room with them to shoot them, stop, reload, shoot them, stop, reload, >shoot them, stop, reload, and on and on and on. Sixty people were shot >by one man with a pistol without a single one of them making any >substantial resistance. Isn't this noteworthy? What kind of sheep live >in our society who would allow someone to shoot them and sixty others >without making any kind of resistance? Don't be too quick to judge, you weren't there, and until the investigation is complete we won't really know what happened, if then. There has to be a leader, some one who takes that first action. Whoever is first will draw fire and it requires great courage. Once the example is set, others may follow and if Cho had faced a barrage of books and furniture thrown at him, the death toll would have been much lower. I'm very much in favor of shall issue CCLs, but people in should be taught what they can do to defend themselves if no one is armed. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.