Would you be mad if your childs school fingerprinted them without your permission?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Sounds great in theory CES, but I am deeply afraid of the government who wants this much involvement in it's people's lives. I don't believe in anarchy, but I do be in deregulation of the government. It's not about being honest or dishonest, it's about privacy. I still enjoy it, I'm sorry you don't think it's so expendable.

 

I love privacy very much. I am a private person and live my life that way.

 

However, I already have a drivers license. The DMV in California has a record of my fingerprint as it is required to get a license.

 

My Ohio license has my SSN and DOB, signature and photograph.

 

The only two components not recorded in that little license is my complete fingerprints and DNA.

 

This information could be encoded on a microchip. I have no problems with it.

 

I've maintained for years that the way to stop identity theft is to require an electronic thumbprint in addition to a signature. Proof of who made the transaction.

 

It would be impossible for people to try and rip off your identity without leaving a trace.

 

Besides, do you really think the government doesn't know where you are, where you live, your phone number, your SSN, DOB, your credit profile and credit records, etc? Of course they do. Big deal. It means nothing unless you are a criminal or a bad citizen who owes taxes and stuff like that.

 

If you were EVER in the military, they have a complete set of fingerprints, dental records, and blood type on you.

 

Privacy in today's society is more a function of how you conduct yourself in relationship to the public at large, not in terms of what information the government has on you. They already have almost everything.

 

I'm with Tori on this one. A national DNA database would exonerate the innocent, punish the guilty, and make it impossible to hide if you were a wanted person.

 

I guess I'm asking you to define for me what you think you have that is personal now that you would lose?

[wardmd]

Absolutely!

 

Furthermore, this is why it is now time for a NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION CARD.

 

No more fucking problems identifying people or illegal aliens, or anyone for that matter.

 

Your NATIONAL IDENTITY card should have a microchip with your personal information, SSN, DOB, fingerprint record and DNA record and a new photo taken every 3 years.

 

Make it a requirement for obtaining a drivers license, unemployment benefits, public assistance, welfare, Social Security benefits, anything. It should be the identification of the land.

 

The only people who complain are the ones who don't want to be honest citizens.

 

Fuck Em.

Holy SHIT! CES... You and I are on the same page on this one!

 

Screw the ACLU!

 

Hell, we give our fingerprint (here in California, only our thumb print) and our picture when we get a Drivers license. Then think of all of the electronic information about you which is tracked by the various sources (Credit Card usage, cell phone locations [cells used], etc.).

 

Granted, this information is (or so we believe) "owned" by private parties (and that "Big Brother" has to get a warrant to get it [or, at least to USE it against you).

 

Personally, I don't give a shit if "Big Brother" knows where I go, and what I do ('cause I'm not breaking the law)...

 

Of course people who try to get away with everything they can are opposed to having a cop on every corner, but the rest of us would just as soon have all you law breakers off the streets...

 

As to the topic at hand...

 

You know, if the dip-shit punk who actually BROKE THE FUCKING PENCIL simply admitted their error (or, heaven forbid, actually informed the teacher of the "problem" in the first place) - NONE of this Finger-Print crap would have come up at all..

 

It is, after all, the STUPID, PUNK kid (who refuses to take responsibility for their own actions) which is the CAUSE of the problem...

 

Yeah, the teacher probably over reacted, but I don't give a shit if every kid is finger printed... But, the bottom line STILL is, that the stupid punk KID is the one who caused the problem...

 

It would be one thing if he/she super-glued a pencil into the sharpener, but a simple broken pencil - give me a break...

 

If my kid broke a pencil in a shapener, and told the teacher - and THEN the teacher had a fit (over the broken pencil) - THEN I'd have a field day with that teacher (I LOVE giving teachers and administrators SHIT when they go over the edge)...

 

FYI, BOTH of my grandmothers were teachers, my mother was a teacher, and my sister IS a teacher...

[tiredofwhiners]

Ok i have to admit i'm seeing the light on this one. I still don't agree with the teacher using threats for a broken pencil, but to solve crimes and put the right people away maybe it's not so bad.

[Lethalfind]

I just got off the phone with the principle. She apologized profusely, she stated the story as was told to me by my daughter was correct. The teachers did in fact fingerprint all the students (38) with the intent of frightening one of them into admitting who had broken their pencil off in the pencil sharpener. The fingerprints were thrown away at the time. The bigger issue to me here is that the teachers have that little control of their class that they have to use this kind of intimidation tactic.

The principle assured me that this was innappropriate and would never happen again, the teachers have been admonished on this fact. The principle agreed that this should never have happened. She offered to have the teachers themselves call me to apologize. I told her this was not necessary.

I told her that in the future Diane is thought to have done something she shouldn't I would prefer they call me rather then taking this approach with her.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Holy SHIT! CES... You and I are on the same page on this one!

 

Screw the ACLU!...

 

See..see...common ground. Worse things have happened!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just got off the phone with the principle. She apologized profusely, she stated the story as was told to me by my daughter was correct. The teachers did in fact fingerprint all the students (38) with the intent of frightening one of them into admitting who had broken their pencil off in the pencil sharpener. The fingerprints were thrown away at the time. The bigger issue to me here is that the teachers have that little control of their class that they have to use this kind of intimidation tactic.

The principle assured me that this was innappropriate and would never happen again, the teachers have been admonished on this fact. The principle agreed that this should never have happened. She offered to have the teachers themselves call me to apologize. I told her this was not necessary.

I told her that in the future Diane is thought to have done something she shouldn't I would prefer they call me rather then taking this approach with her.

 

Good for you. I'm glad you got what you wanted.

 

Now will you shut the hell up?

[Lethalfind]

Good for you. I'm glad you got what you wanted.

 

Now will you shut the hell up?

 

On this topic but probably not in general, its not in my nature.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

On this topic but probably not in general, its not in my nature.

 

Lady...you're preaching to the choir on that one!

[ImWithStupid]

The bigger issue to me here is that the teachers have that little control of their class that they have to use this kind of intimidation tactic.

 

Not sticking up for what the teacher did, as it was unexeptable, but I think much of the problem as far as the teacher's control of the class has to do with parents not teaching their kids to respect adults and authority figures like they should.

 

If I lied to a teacher or another adult or was disrespectful when I was a kid my mom would have beat my ass. Most kids today don't have this fear of their parents and definately not their teachers because they aren't taught respect like they used to be.

[wardmd]

See..see...common ground. Worse things have happened!

Yep... When you're right, you're right (for now)...

[ToriAllen]

I just got off the phone with the principle. She apologized profusely, she stated the story as was told to me by my daughter was correct. The teachers did in fact fingerprint all the students (38) with the intent of frightening one of them into admitting who had broken their pencil off in the pencil sharpener. The fingerprints were thrown away at the time. The bigger issue to me here is that the teachers have that little control of their class that they have to use this kind of intimidation tactic.

The principle assured me that this was innappropriate and would never happen again, the teachers have been admonished on this fact. The principle agreed that this should never have happened. She offered to have the teachers themselves call me to apologize. I told her this was not necessary.

I told her that in the future Diane is thought to have done something she shouldn't I would prefer they call me rather then taking this approach with her.

It sounds like the kind of scare tactic I would use with my kids. So, you were wrong in thinking it was some big conspiracy, and now you are redirecting your anger to the teachers ‘inability to control the class’.

 

I thought the original argument was the rights of minors, and you being pissed that the school was going to keep your daughters finger prints on file. Let’s see…

 

The teacher took all their fingerprints and used a telescope in the science lab to compare them and found out who had done it.

I was not notified before or after that my child had been fingerprinted. From what Diane has told me they have kept her fingerprints on file just in case this happens again.Of course I have yet to speak with the principle about this but I have spoken with the police and they tell me they can't fingerprint your child under these circumstances.

BUT evidently my daughters school thinks they can fingerprint her without my permission and retain her prints on file.Unfortunately people today seem to think that minors don't have rights like adults do.

Your reaction was irrational and impulsive. You were so ready to call in the infantry, you did not care what the truth was, and you were so blind by your anger that the clearly implausible nature of the whole situation never occurred to you.

I believe I stated that this was most likely a ruse of some sort all along. Let’s see….

There is a difference in lying and not having the benefit of full truth.

She told what she knew, which, as I suspected, was not the whole truth. The teacher threw them away after she took them. No harm, no foul, and certainly no conspiracy by the school to take your daughters constitutional rights away. You should have gone to the teacher in the first place. Going to the police before knowing what was going on was ridiculous. I’m sure that sort of threat is not listed as unacceptable in the teacher handbook. There were better ways to go about this than the attention getting song and dance you went through. Talk to the teacher, if she doesn’t see a problem, go to the principle, if she doesn’t see a problem, then go to the police. It is common sense to go through the chain of command. If anything you will know the whole truth and be able to present the whole story to the higher ups.

 

Not sticking up for what the teacher did, as it was unexeptable, but I think much of the problem as far as the teacher's control of the class has to do with parents not teaching their kids to respect adults and authority figures like they should.

 

If I lied to a teacher or another adult or was disrespectful when I was a kid my mom would have beat my ass. Most kids today don't have this fear of their parents and definately not their teachers because they aren't taught respect like they used to be.

I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be a teacher nowadays. The kids are disrespectful, and the parents are undermining.

[Lethalfind]

It sounds like the kind of scare tactic I would use with my kids. So, you were wrong in thinking it was some big conspiracy, and now you are redirecting your anger to the teachers ‘inability to control the class’.

 

I thought the original argument was the rights of minors, and you being pissed that the school was going to keep your daughters finger prints on file. Let’s see…

 

 

Your reaction was irrational and impulsive. You were so ready to call in the infantry, you did not care what the truth was, and you were so blind by your anger that the clearly implausible nature of the whole situation never occurred to you.

I believe I stated that this was most likely a ruse of some sort all along. Let’s see….

 

She told what she knew, which, as I suspected, was not the whole truth. The teacher threw them away after she took them. No harm, no foul, and certainly no conspiracy by the school to take your daughters constitutional rights away. You should have gone to the teacher in the first place. Going to the police before knowing what was going on was ridiculous. I’m sure that sort of threat is not listed as unacceptable in the teacher handbook. There were better ways to go about this than the attention getting song and dance you went through. Talk to the teacher, if she doesn’t see a problem, go to the principle, if she doesn’t see a problem, then go to the police. It is common sense to go through the chain of command. If anything you will know the whole truth and be able to present the whole story to the higher ups.

 

 

I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be a teacher nowadays. The kids are disrespectful, and the parents are undermining.

 

Your right, I was absolutely blinded by my anger...which is why I let this problem stew in my mind for awhile rather then charging in and having a go at the teacher. I thought logically about it and realized that if only for times sake how long would it take to look over that many kids fingerprints, I've never done it but it would have to take more time then they have. I still don't think its right and feel that its a scare tactic that the school has no business being involved in. Funnily enough the principal agreed with me.

As for you using something like that with your children, they are your children, as a parent you have the right to approach things with more leeway then the school has. You can spank them, the school can't. You can deprive them of a meal, the school can't. The list is endless...

I asked the police a general question, so I would know if I had the right to make an issue of this at the school to start with. I didn't make a report or tell them what school or person I thought had done this. I wanted to have the full information of what was allowed legally. I would never go into Dianes school without a full understanding of what they can and can't do. As far as going directly to the teacher I disagree. I was affraid of making things hard on Diane if I got into something with the teacher.

As for the teacher throwing them away...she did in fact do this but according to the principle the teacher did tell the students they would be kept on file and used if something like this happened again...Everything my daughter told me was accurate as far as what the teachers said.

I do still feel that children have certain rights that should not be infringed upon and said this to the principle who by the way agreed with me on this. The principle behaved as if she was embarrased that this had happened and was concerned. This is a public school by the way, not some private school that has to be concerned about loosing a pupil and therefore their money. I told the principle that if and when my daughter is enough of a discipline problem where they feel she isn't being truthful or some other situation then I need to be called. I won't put up with this kind of behavior and Diane knows there is hell to pay for this however the teacher doesn't need to be taking this kind of action.

[manicmonday]

 

I guess I'm asking you to define for me what you think you have that is personal now that you would lose?

 

I know that the government already has all the info they need on any given individual. However, I feel that the more the government gets involved, the more corrupt society gets. History bears this out. A tyrant government, a criminal society. It's not the chicken before the egg. Think about when your parents starting making the rules stricter. You(and I) looked for ways to rebel. This also applies to the Socialogy of the society, although not a blanket statement. I want the goverment to back off, give us our personal freedoms that we are supposed to have and I will call them when I need them. Not have them in my face before I ever even say boooo.

[ToriAllen]

Your right

I know

' date=' I was absolutely blinded by my anger...which is why I let this problem stew in my mind for awhile rather then charging in and having a go at[/quote']talking to

the teacher. I thought logically about it

a month or so later' date=' after it was pointed out several times

and realized that if only for times sake how long would it take to look over that many kids fingerprints, I've never done it but it would have to take more time then they have. I still don't think its right and feel that its a scare tactic that the school has no business being involved in.

Which is what you should have told the teacher when you talked to her

Funnily enough the principal agreed with me.

They tend to do that when they see a woman that seems ready to sue over little shit like that.

As for you using something like that with your children, they are your children, as a parent you have the right to approach things with more leeway then the school has. You can spank them, the school can't. You can deprive them of a meal, the school can't. The list is endless...

I would never deprive my children of meals. That sounds a lot like abuse. Some schools still have paddling.

I asked the police a general question, so I would know if I had the right to make an issue of this at the school to start with. I didn't make a report or tell them what school or person I thought had done this. I wanted to have the full information of what was allowed legally. I would never go into Dianes school without a full understanding of what they can and can't do.

I

[Lethalfind]

I knowtalking toa month or so later, after it was pointed out several timesWhich is what you should have told the teacher when you talked to herThey tend to do that when they see a woman that seems ready to sue over little shit like that. I would never deprive my children of meals. That sounds a lot like abuse. Some schools still have paddling. I

[ToriAllen]

Tori, talking to you is like chasing your own tail. I feel nothing of value has transpired. I hope you do because if not then its a complete waste of time.

Listening to you is like watching you chase your own tail.

I could have told you at the beginning that nothing of value would come of this. Oh wait, I did.

[wardmd]

I just got off the phone with the principle. She apologized profusely, she stated the story as was told to me by my daughter was correct. The teachers did in fact fingerprint all the students (38) with the intent of frightening one of them into admitting who had broken their pencil off in the pencil sharpener. The fingerprints were thrown away at the time. The bigger issue to me here is that the teachers have that little control of their class that they have to use this kind of intimidation tactic.

The principle assured me that this was innappropriate and would never happen again, the teachers have been admonished on this fact. The principle agreed that this should never have happened. She offered to have the teachers themselves call me to apologize. I told her this was not necessary.

I told her that in the future Diane is thought to have done something she shouldn't I would prefer they call me rather then taking this approach with her.

NO! NO! NO!

 

You don't want a PERSONAL apology; you want a PUBLIC apology...

 

You should offer to come to the teacher's class, where the principal and the teacher can BOTH apologize to you AND YOUR DAUGHTER IN FRONT OF THE CLASS...

 

I'm afraid, however, that THAT offer would be rejected by the school (funny how they don't seem to have a problem with the mass-accusation of the entire class and/or fingerprinting the kids, but to admit that THEY were WRONG [publicly] - don't hold your breath)...

 

My guess, also, is that you'll get the typical "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by what happened." type of non-apology... THAT wording DOESN'T say that they are sorry for WHAT THEY DID, but that they're sorry that YOU got offended by what they did (implicit in that wording is NO admission of wrong doing on their part).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

NO! NO! NO!

 

You don't want a PERSONAL apology; you want a PUBLIC apology...

 

You should offer to come to the teacher's class, where the principal and the teacher can BOTH apologize to you AND YOUR DAUGHTER IN FRONT OF THE CLASS...

 

I'm afraid, however, that THAT offer would be rejected by the school (funny how they don't seem to have a problem with the mass-accusation of the entire class and/or fingerprinting the kids, but to admit that THEY were WRONG [publicly] - don't hold your breath)...

 

My guess, also, is that you'll get the typical "I'm sorry if anyone was offended by what happened." type of non-apology... THAT wording DOESN'T say that they are sorry for WHAT THEY DID, but that they're sorry that YOU got offended by what they did (implicit in that wording is NO admission of wrong doing on their part).

 

Oh Jesus Fucking Christ...

 

Let's just completely erode what little sense of authority and spine we have left in the public school system.

 

No wonder our schools are going into the toilet.

 

That's Right! Yes, you too can be yelled at, disrespected by your students, stolen from, have your classroom items vandalized, and the moment you try to instill a sense of power and control over your students, in order to provide a learning environment whereby they actually are learning, you can be run up the proverbial flag pole by your student's parents and demanded to make apologies both public and private when in reality you just want to tell people the truth about how their kid is a loudmouth troublemaker who would have been an excellent candidate for an abortion!

 

And you can do this for an annual salary of $21,000 per year!

 

Betcha can't wait to join up eh?

 

Fucking morons...why not just blow your kids schools up, at least it's merciful instead of destroying it one brick at a time.

[wardmd]

I know that the government already has all the info they need on any given individual. However, I feel that the more the government gets involved, the more corrupt society gets. History bears this out. A tyrant government, a criminal society. It's not the chicken before the egg. Think about when your parents starting making the rules stricter. You(and I) looked for ways to rebel. This also applies to the Socialogy of the society, although not a blanket statement. I want the goverment to back off, give us our personal freedoms that we are supposed to have and I will call them when I need them. Not have them in my face before I ever even say boooo.

As for me, I could care less if a police officer followed me around 24/7... Yeah, I'd probably take longer to get places (I might actually have to stay BELOW the speed limit ALL the time), but would that be a BAD thing?

 

Other than that, I don't think I make a habit of breaking the law... So what's the big deal?

 

I know the basic "Fifth Amendment" protection against self-incrimination, but that does NOT include a protection of self-IDENTIFICATION... If that were the case, the police would not be allowed to photograph you and take your fingerprints when you are arrested, nor would you be required to correctly identify yourself (give your real name).

 

The Fifth Amendment does NOT provide a loop-hole for you to break the law with impunity

[ToriAllen]

Clearly, there could be NO REASONABLE expectation that ALL of the kids in the class broke off the pencil in the sharpener (intentionally or otherwise)...

You're making this into more than what it was. It was a threat. No ones finger prints were analyzed, so no crime was committed. This has been blown out of proportion enough already.

By the way, when finger prints are analyzed, the database goes through all of the prints in the system, even though not all of the people in the system committed the crime.

I wonder if the teacher would consider it REASONABLE to take EVERY TEACHER into custody, if there is an allegation that SOME teacher engaged in sexual activities with a student?

 

If there was an anonymous note alluding to one of the teachers sleeping with a student, I guarantee that the police would most certainly question every single one. And, I'm fairly sure they would probably threaten jail time to those they questioned.

[wardmd]

You're making this into more than what it was. It was a threat. No ones finger prints were analyzed, so no crime was committed. This has been blown out of proportion enough already.

By the way, when finger prints are analyzed, the database goes through all of the prints in the system, even though not all of the people in the system committed the crime.

 

 

If there was an anonymous note alluding to one of the teachers sleeping with a student, I guarantee that the police would most certainly question every single one. And, I'm fairly sure they would probably threaten jail time to those they questioned.

I'm not suggesting that the teacher was, in fact, going to go through with the identification of the fingerprints... BUT what does the actions of the teacher TEACH our kids?

 

That it's OKAY for an authority figure to do whatever they want, just because?

 

My point is that the more you tolerate the CRAP that our "Educators" foist upon our kids, the more CRAP we're going to get...

 

We've seen, time after time, STUPID Liberal Policies - openly embraced by the vast majority of the Education "elite"...

 

We got Ebonics (as opposed to teaching English, so that people have a better chance of getting a decent job)...

 

Teaching kids in their native languages (as opposed to English Emersion [even though the vast majority of KIDS do far better picking up English by emersion], AND that the vast majority of voters [even in BLUE California]).

 

And how can we "graduate" kids who are functionally ILLITERATE (50% of seniors in 4 year universities, and 75% of

[ToriAllen]

I'm not suggesting that the teacher was, in fact, going to go through with the identification of the fingerprints... BUT what does the actions of the teacher TEACH our kids?

 

That it's OKAY for an authority figure to do whatever they want, just because?

 

My point is that the more you tolerate the CRAP that our "Educators" foist upon our kids, the more CRAP we're going to get...

 

We've seen, time after time, STUPID Liberal Policies - openly embraced by the vast majority of the Education "elite"...

Frivolous law suits and chest beating are typical of the liberal party. Taking power away from educators to the point where they have no control anymore is typical of the liberal party. Are you sure you really know the difference between liberal and conservative? Conservatives would look at this, roll their eyes, and think about the good old days when fake fingerprinting would not have been considered an

[wardmd]

Frivolous law suits and chest beating are typical of the liberal party. Taking power away from educators to the point where they have no control anymore is typical of the liberal party. Are you sure you really know the difference between liberal and conservative? Conservatives would look at this, roll their eyes, and think about the good old days when fake fingerprinting would not have been considered an

[wardmd]

Oh Jesus Fucking Christ...

Let's just completely erode what little sense of authority and spine we have left in the public school system.

 

No wonder our schools are going into the toilet.

First, has it been determined that the broken pencil was a DELIBERATE ACT of sabotage, or was it, simply, a mistake made by a skull full of mush?

 

If by the erosion of a “sense of authority and spine” you mean that teachers and/or administrator are losing (or have lost) control over unruly students, then I agree…

 

I FULLY SUPPORT kicking trouble makers OUT OF SCHOOL (personally, I rather wish we could FORCE PARENTS to come to school and baby-sit their little MONSTERS, rather than simply kicking the kids out of school).

 

Unfortunately, the tendency is to not want to hurt their poor little “self-esteem” – rather than to even SUGGEST that they should be responsible for their actions (and that goes DOUBLE for parents who, obviously, have no business having children [because they just push them off onto the schools as glorified day-care centers]).

 

However, we have a SIMILAR problem with unruly TEACHERS.

That's Right! Yes, you too can be yelled at, disrespected by your students, stolen from, have your classroom items vandalized, and the moment you try to instill a sense of power and control over your students, in order to provide a learning environment whereby they actually are learning, you can be run up the proverbial flag pole by your student's parents and demanded to make apologies both public and private when in reality you just want to tell people the truth about how their kid is a loudmouth troublemaker who would have been an excellent candidate for an abortion!

 

And you can do this for an annual salary of $21,000 per year!

 

Betcha can't wait to join up eh?

Perhaps you missed my family history… BOTH of my grandmothers WERE teachers; My MOTHER WAS a teacher; and my SISTER IS a teacher (so don’t go preaching to ME about how difficult a teacher’s life is…)

 

There are MANY problems facing our educational system…

 

Teachers getting paid too little (for the crap they have to endure)

Lack of Discipline in the classroom

Lack of ENFORCEMENT of PUNISHMENT for those who are disruptive

Lack of dedication to academics (in favor of “Liberal Arts” huggy-feely crap)

Social Promotion (“graduating” MORONS, and calling it an “education”)

Fucking morons...why not just blow your kids schools up, at least it's merciful instead of destroying it one brick at a time.

The Liberal MORONS (Unions and the Courts) are the ones destroying it…

 

If an unruly kid is disruptive in class, the teacher SHOULD be able to kick that kid out of class (AND the Administration SHOULD back the teachers)… BUT that usually does NOT happen… The teacher is FORCED to endure the kid (day after day), because the linguini spined Administrators refuse to KICK unruly kids out of school…

 

However, when a TEACHER acts inappropriately, then the TEACHER must be called on the carpet for THEIR actions, too…

 

What YOU are suggesting is to simply accept ANYTHING that teachers say (whether it be right or wrong) – THAT, too, has led to the erosion of the ACADEMIC standards (teachers indoctrinating kids into their political, social, religious [or lack thereof] ideologies)…

 

If teachers would concentrate on TEACHING (academics), and leave the MORAL, ETHICAL, RELIGIOUS beliefs of the students to the PARENTS, and/or stop making a federal crime out of a broken pencil in a fucking pencil sharpener, perhaps there would not be 50% of our COLLEGE SENIORS (in 4 year universities) and 75% of “seniors” (in 2 year colleges) who cannot determine which of two credit card offers is better…

 

SOME of those MORONS may very well end up as teachers (and get tenure in a few short years) – THEN what are we stuck with?

 

Bottom line, if MY child DELIBERATLY broke a pencil in a sharpener (or otherwise disrupts class) – I want to know about it, and I will take appropriate disciplinary action… BUT, if a teacher gets out of line, I expect my daughter to tell me that, too – and, again, I will take appropriate action.

[angie]

I think someone needs to remove the 'shift' button from your keyboard. You're like our very own David Caruso.