Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Kelsey Bjarnason wrote: <snip> > We reject it as evidence because it isn't evidence. Let's see if we can > make this sink in. > > Suppose Mike says he has a document which says you owe him a million > dollars, payable on demand. Are you going to pay up? > > Obviously not. You're going to expect him to back up his claim - with > evidence that such a document exists. Aha! Now I chime in and tell you I > have seen this document and because I'm now offering testimony, you have > to - by your own standards - accept that the document is valid, and you > now owe him a million dollars, so pay up. Hey, get him to pay off on it and I'll split it with ya wink wink > Are you going to do this? Obviously not - because he could be lying. Or > I could. Or we both could. Or there may be terms and conditions in the > document which would let you off the hook. Or any of a hundred other > reasons why you don't have to pay. > > The problem though is that by not paying, you'd be expressly agreeing > that testimony is not, in fact, evidence of the debt. You wouldn't accept > it, but for some reason you expect us to accept it. > > What we do expect is evidence . You expect Jason to supply evidence of his God? Why, the nerve! "Evidence? We don't need no stinkin' evidence!" <snip> Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason wrote: > I was referring to these two steps: > > STEP 1 Single cell (example: bacteria) > STEP 2 Single animal cell (with DNA nucleus capable of sexual reproduction) And leaving out the millions of steps that came before and between. > Testimony is considered as evidence in court. Someone pointed out that > physical evidence (eg gun, bloody knife) is more important than testimony. > I agreed with that person that made that statement. > > Let's say that the neighbors in an apartment building hear a married > couple having an argument. They hear the husband say, "I'm going to kill > you". The argument ends and the police are not called. The following day, > the wife was shot as she was walking home from work. The husband took a > shower after he shot his wife and washed his hands with bleach to remove > any evidence. There were no witnesses present when the husband shot his > wife. The police are not able to find a gun when they search the apartment > and all surrounding areas. They arrest the husband and charge him with the > murder. All of the neighbors provide testimony at the murder trial. > > The jury members convict the husband of first degree murder--based upon > the testimonies of the people that heard the argument and heard him say, > "I'm going to kill you." No, they wouldn't. You'd never even find a DA that would even think about arresting the guy to begin with, much less prosecuting him, based on simply an "I'm going to kill you." Was there even a body? > Do you now understand that TESTIMONY is evidence--even if there is no > physical evidence? Testimony is simply evidence that the person says he saw/heard/tasted/smelled/felt something but NOT evidence that the something actually exists.. But if the neighbor claimed "Yeah, I saw him shoot her and bury her body right here" and yet there was no body found (or better yet, the wife is actually standing there, alive and well) the testimony would likely be ignored. Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1181643770.817395.36870@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >> A person that has been healed is evidence that he was healed. It is >> not evidence of a god. > > Yes, that is true. "The evidence that they were healed is evidence for God." Remember saying that, Jason? Are you now saying exactly the opposite? If I provided physical evidence which indicated that > her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? Why would we have to be able to explain it? Just because we couldn't (assuming you ever actually managed to show this physical evidence, which you've never shown before) how would such a lack of explanation automatically mean "god did it" instead of "Mike did it"? Quote
Guest Don Kresch Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 In alt.atheism On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:55:55 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) let us all know that: >In article <gfou63h4mfoelteph2jnou1er6o8n7ha07@4ax.com>, Don Kresch ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > >> In alt.atheism On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:53:29 -0700, Jason@nospam.com >> (Jason) let us all know that: >> >> >In article <1k8u63p8g5ekm82c78psrvmlh24v5qbs6t@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> > >> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:07:52 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> <Jason-1206071207530001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> > >> >> >> > You want to try again. I'll find 10 or 20 more questions for you.- >> >Skjul = >> >> >> tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, we all know that you are not capable of being embarrassed by your >> >> >> dishonesty. It is odd that you are proud of it though. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Questions for Evolutionists >> >> > >> >> >BlueBar >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 1. Where did the space for the universe come from? >> >> >> >> That question shows a profound lack of understanding of cosmological >> >> origins. >> > >> >not an answer >> >> It is an answer. >> >> >> >> > 2. Where did matter come from? >> >> >> >> It's a form of energy and is a result of the Big Bang. >> >good answer--but where did the energy re: Big Bang come from? >> >> Always there. >> >> >> >> >> > 3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, >inertia, etc.)? >> >> >> >> Like the first question, the question betrays be a misunderstanding of >> >> physics so deep that it would be impossible to clarify it. >> >not an answer >> >> It is an answer. >> >> >> Now then: when will you respond to my answers of your original >> 20 questions? >Repost the questions and your answers. No problem. In alt.atheism On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) let us all know that: > > 20 Questions for Evolutionists > > 1. Where has macro evolution ever been observed? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html > What's the mechanism >for getting new complexity such as new vital organs? Mutation. Natural selection >How, for example, >could a caterpillar evolve into a butterfly? It transforms, dumbshit. > > 2. Where are the billions of transitional fossils that should be there >if your theory is right? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html > 3. Who are the evolutionary ancestors of the insects? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC220_1.html > 4. What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could >ever assemble itself? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF003.html > 5. How could organs as complicated as the eye http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html > or the ear http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB302.html > or the brain of even a tiny bird ever come about by chance or natural processes? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB303.html > How could a bacterial motor evolve? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html > > 6. If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Oh for fucks sake, Hovind: this has nothing to do with evolution. 7 and 8 have nothing to do with evolution, either. That is in the field of COSMOLOGY and ASTROPHYSICS, moron. Stop believing Kent Hovind. He's a liar and a con-artist. > 9. How did sexual reproduction evolve? http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/dec98.html > > 10. If the big bang occurred, where did all the information It's not information. > 11. Why do so many of the earth's ancient cultures have flood legends? Because the started near rivers. > > 12. Where did matter come from? Where did god come from? > What about space, time, energy, and even the laws of physics? > > 13. How did the first living cell begin? No one really knows, but it's not a miracle. How did god begin? Yes, god began. No, god didn't not begin. Yes, god began. No, god didn't not begin. I'll keep repeating that until you understand that you can't special plead. > 14. Just before life appeared, did the atmosphere have oxygen or did >it not have oxygen? Didn't. > > 15. Why aren't meteorites found in supposedly old rocks? We do find them there in their remnants. Search for "iridium layer" in google. You'll find something interesting. > > 16. If it takes intelligence to make an arrowhead, why doesn't it take >vastly more intelligence to create a human? Why doesn't it take vastly more intelligence than that to create god? > Do you really believe that >hydrogen will turn into people if you wait long enough? Only if you want to strawman evolution, which clearly you do. > > 17. Which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA--which can >only be produced by DNA? http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB015.html > > 18. Can you name one reasonable hypothesis on how the moon got >there http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/moon/moon_formation.html >--any hypothesis that is consistent with all the data? Why aren't >students told the scientific reasons for rejecting all the evolutionary >theories for the moon's origin? There AREN'T any evolutionary theories for it because IT'S NOT PART OF EVOLUTION, YOU IGNORANT FUCK. IT'S PART OF ASTROPHYSICS/COSMOLOGY, YOU IGNORANT FUCK. > 19. Why won't qualified evolutionists enter into a written, scientific >debate? Because they don't want to dirty themselves with the laughable bullshit of creationists. > > 20. Would you like to explain the origin of any of the following >twenty-one features of the earth: No. I've humored you enough > If so, I will point out some obvious problems with your >explanation No, you won't. You will just point us to a place that closes its eyes and screams "gawddidit" over and over. Don --- aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert. "No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another" Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" Quote
Guest Robibnikoff Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in snip > Martin, > I don't believe the advocates of evolution are stupid or naive. Atheists > believe there is no God WRONG. -- Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 Quote
Guest Robibnikoff Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in snip > Martin, > No, I don't think that Christians or yourself needs medication. Perhaps, > some of the advocates of evolution do need medication since they seem to > get really angry when someone attacks their precious theory. Oh please - Like no creationist ever got angry when someone attacked their "precious theory". Don't be such a hypocrite. -- Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 Quote
Guest Robibnikoff Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote snip > Speculation is not evidence. The advocates of creation science have fossil > evidence. They have a fossil of your god? Cool. Got a cite for that? -- Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 Quote
Guest Robibnikoff Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 <gudloos@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1181730514.728942.170120@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com... On 12 Jun., 19:30, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > news:Jason-1206071128330001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > > > > > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > Martin > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >> On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > In article <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > >> > Martin > > >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > > > God > > >> > > God doesn't exist. > > >> > > created mankind, he > >> > > > gave us free will. > > >> > > Free will doesn't exist. > > >> > > You're 0 for 2. > > >> > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands free > >> > will, > >> > many Bible doctrines and even issues related to life; sociological > >> > and > >> > psychological issues--make sense. For example, I now understand why > >> > some > >> > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month each > >> > year > >> > in > >> > third world countries. I also understand why some people do terrible > >> > things such as becoming murderers or rapists. > > >> Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten > >> people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men who > >> killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in their > >> god? > > >> Martin > > > Martin, > > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to God--but > > they > > are wrong. You can find many cases in history where people done terrible > > things that they believed were pleasing to God--but were not pleasing to > > God. > > Jason > > Who are you to judge? > > - Vis tekst i anf Quote
Guest Robibnikoff Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 <gudloos@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1181731109.336180.80870@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com... On 12 Jun., 21:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <5d83hcF31q6f...@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message snip > > > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to God--but > > > they > > > are wrong. You can find many cases in history where people done > > > terrible > > > things that they believed were pleasing to God--but were not pleasing > > > to > > > God. > > > Jason > > > Who are you to judge? > > It's easy to judge the actions of the men that killed 3000 people on 9/11. >But you are judging god. Exactly - I was talking about that him judging what his god finds pleasing, not the 9/11 hijackers. -- Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 Quote
Guest John Baker Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:48:04 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >On 12 Jun., 19:42, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> In article <1181643770.817395.36...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >> >> >> >> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> > On 11 Jun., 21:54, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > > In article <0de0k4-blk....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason >snip > >> > A person that has been healed is evidence that he was healed. It is >> > not evidence of a god. >> > >> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that >> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened?- > >I would not be able to explain it, and that is not evidence that god >did it. But then, Jason isn't about to provide any evidence either..... Quote
Guest Jim07D7 Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: >In article <1181699847.672385.230670@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin ><phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 13, 8:33 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:50:33 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> > Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote in >> > <1181613033.399853.282...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: >> > >> > >On Jun 12, 7:48 am, Matt Silberstein >> > ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> And, yet, you know that when Christians pray and things happen it is >> > >> because they pray. But somehow when Muslims pray and things happen it >> > >> is not because God did it. >> > >> > >Not Yahweh anyway. >> > >> > Of course it is. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahai all agree that >> > they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Sure, they all tell >> > different stories and claim the others are wrong, but they're all pretty >> > clear that they worship the same God. >> > >> > If there is a God, it appears that He enjoys the confusion, because He's >> > made no effort to clear it up. >> >> Genesis 1 talks of the Elohim. It is Genesis 2 that speaks of >> Yahweh. According to Exodus, Yahweh insisted that he be worshipped >> ahead of "other gods". >> >> Martin > >They are different names for God. > "God" is a name. Quote
Guest John Baker Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:31:58 -0400, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote >in message >news:Jason-1206072004470001@66-52-22-63.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> In article <nocu63t7m5lckkpctjabhghvrbj10nrdap@4ax.com>, John Baker >> <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:53:45 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>> >snip >> >> Would you like for me to post her testimony again. She stated that she >> watched her leg bone grow two inches? > >Go ahead. It still doesn't prove that this alleged incident was caused by a >god. Or that it even happened. Jason could post and repost his claim that a woman named Cheryl testified that the alleged event occurred from now 'till the cows come home. That alone doesn't prove it did happen, or that "Cheryl" even exists. If Jason expects me to buy his story, he's going to have to produce more than a second-hand claim allegedly made by a person whom he's offered no evidence even exists. He's going to have to produce Cheryl in the flesh, preferrably with 'before' and 'after' photos that have been certified as undoctored by an expert in digital image manipulation, and he's going to have to produce at least two qualified medical professionals who actually witnessed the event and will confirm that it did happen and that it is medically unexplainable. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and a story like this isn't going to fly on nothing but Jason's (or anyone else's) say so. My guess, to borrow Jason's favorite phrase, is that he makes these little stories up on the spot. Either that or he's one of those terminally gullible rubes who believes anything anyone tells him as long as it appears to confirm his religious convictions. Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <opc3k4-7or.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > >> [snips] >> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:42:26 -0700, Jason wrote: >> >>> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that >>> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? >> Honestly, by stating the cause - if any, you haven't validated even this >> much yet - simply isn't known yet. >> >> "I don't know" is not the same as "Yes, there really is a super being who, >> of all the thousands of such beings described, just happens to match this >> particular one and he really does heal people, but does it magically >> without leaving any evidence he did it - or even that he exists." >> >> You see how those differ? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > Have you considered that God is giving you evidence that he exists by > healing people? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. Are all the people that aren't healed evidence that there is no god? BTW, if I went to a doctor that had as bad of a healing rate as your god, I'd sue him for malpractice. Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On 13 Jun., 00:01, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <opc3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > > > > > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > [snips] > > > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:42:26 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > > Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that > > > her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? > > > Honestly, by stating the cause - if any, you haven't validated even this > > much yet - simply isn't known yet. > > > "I don't know" is not the same as "Yes, there really is a super being who, > > of all the thousands of such beings described, just happens to match this > > particular one and he really does heal people, but does it magically > > without leaving any evidence he did it - or even that he exists." > > > You see how those differ? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > Have you considered that God is giving you evidence that he exists by > healing people? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in.- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On 13 Jun., 00:09, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <31d3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > [snips] > > > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:03:44 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >> It's easy to find people who will tell us what a blasphemous infidel you > > >> are for saying that the 9/11 Jihadists were not pleasing Allah with > > >> their actions. > > > > You already know that millions of people in America agree that the actions > > > of those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > "in America"? Oh, wonderful. Now someone's religion is invalidated > > simply by where they live . > > I mentioned America since those 3000 people were killed in America. > Millions of people in other countries also realize that the actions of > those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. They all think it was not, but they, like you, cannot know the mind of god. > > What is your opinion about those men that killed 3000 people on 9/11? They were motivated by their belief in the same god you believe in, the same god who repeatedly (according to the Bible) ordered even worse massacres. They also consider the Old Testament to be divinely inspired; you, on the other hand, think you know the mind of god - blasphemy! > > > > > > > You really are an ignorant piece of work.- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On 13 Jun., 01:27, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <Xns994DB0A6F64ABfreddyb...@66.150.105.47>, Fred Stone > > > > > > <fston...@earthling.com> wrote: > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >news:Jason-1206071509130001@66-52-22-111.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net: > > > > In article <31d3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> [snips] > > > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:03:44 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >> >> It's easy to find people who will tell us what a blasphemous > > >> >> infidel you are for saying that the 9/11 Jihadists were not > > >> >> pleasing Allah with their actions. > > > >> > You already know that millions of people in America agree that the > > >> > actions of those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > >> "in America"? Oh, wonderful. Now someone's religion is invalidated > > >> simply by where they live . > > > > I mentioned America since those 3000 people were killed in America. > > > Millions of people in other countries also realize that the actions of > > > those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > > What is your opinion about those men that killed 3000 people on 9/11? > > > The question is how you can be sure that you know what God's opinion > > is. And right now it looks like you're going by opinion polls. > > Fred, > One of the commandments is related to this subject--Thou shall not Murder. Did Joshua commit murder when he killed everybody in Jericho? > Those men murdered 3000 people on 9/11. They violated one of God's > commandments. Jesus said that we should love our neighbor--he did not say > anything about killing our neighbors. What is your opinion about those men > that killed 3000 people on 9/11?- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest Fred Stone Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in news:Jason-1306071239150001@66-52-22-31.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net: > In article <1181728605.275234.304810@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > >> On 12 Jun., 20:28, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, >> > Martin >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > > On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > > > In article >> > > > <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Ma= >> rtin >> > >> > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > > > > > God >> > >> > > > > God doesn't exist. >> > >> > > > > created mankind, he >> > > > > > gave us free will. >> > >> > > > > Free will doesn't exist. >> > >> > > > > You're 0 for 2. >> > >> > > > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands >> > > > free will, many Bible doctrines and even issues related to >> > > > life; sociological and psychological issues--make sense. For >> > > > example, I now understand why s= >> ome >> > > > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month >> > > > each yea= >> r in >> > > > third world countries. I also understand why some people do >> > > > terrible things such as becoming murderers or rapists. >> > >> > > Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten >> > > people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men >> > > who killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in >> > > their god? >> > >> > > Martin >> > >> > Martin, >> > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. >> > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to >> > God--but they are wrong. You can find many cases in history where >> > people done terrible things that they believed were pleasing to >> > God--but were not pleasing to God. >> > Jason- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> > >> > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> >> How do you know what is pleasing to god? According to your own Bible >> god has ordered mass killing and punished those who did not obey the >> order. You really should not second-guess god; he may not like it, >> just as he may not like all the lies you tell. > > Do you think that when men fly jets into buildings and kill 3000 > people--that it is or is not pleasing to God? In that case, it's easy > to figure out how God feels about it. There is a commandment that > states: Thou shall not Murder. > I think that they believed that their God was pleased with them. They read the commandment from God that says to kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. -- Fred Stone aa# 1369 "When they put out that deadline, people realized that we were going to lose," said an aide to an anti-war lawmaker. "Everything after that seemed like posturing." -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason wrote: > Would you like for me to post her testimony again. She stated that she > watched her leg bone grow two inches? And I watched my cat float into the air. I also saw you sign an IOU for $1,000,000. I heard the pope make me king. I saw you making an honest statement. Now prove me wrong on any of those or else you MUST take them to be fact (according to your logic.) Quote
Guest bramble Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 On 13 jun, 00:37, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181683568.769547.221...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > > > bramble <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 12 jun, 15:20, gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > On 12 Jun., 08:12, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > But the parents are not responsible for the behavior of an adult > > > > > competent child. They may regret have given birth to that child, but > > > > > they are not legally responsible for his actions after attaining > > > > > majority. They may have raised him in a way that led him to commit his > > > > > crimes, but that is a psychological issue rather than a legal one. It > > > > > might be a moral issue, depending on how they raised him. > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > cactus, > > > > My point was that God is like the parents. > > > > What utter nonsense! The parents are not all-powerful. They cannot > > > possibly be responsible for everything the child does. > > > > In much the same way the > > > > > parents were indirectly responsible for the murder since the murder would > > > > not have happened if the son had never been born--God is indirectly > > > > responsible for evil, since evil would never have happened if God had not > > > > created the solar system and life. > > > > Your analogy is transparently invalid. > > > If parents would had the ability to change for the better the behavior > > of his son, he would surely do it. We want that he would be free, but > > free to drive a reasonable life. We, as parents, do no want our kids > > to fall into a pool of shit. > > But, sometimes, we are too busy or we are not enough vlever, and our > > kids began to show bad a attitude, and we do not know how to change or > > reverse this. > > If we were like gods, our kids would have freedom to behave in a nice > > manner and to keep out of trouble. But we are not gods. > > So, go is a very bad parent. And this analogy posited by Jason is not > > valid. > > If there is a god, he would surely change all that. And this is one > > of the proves that there is not any god. > > Bramble > > God could have created robots that were programmed by God to do only kind > and wonderful things and never do bad things such as murder. Instead of > creating programmed robots, God created people that had free will. People > will eventually be judged by God in relation to how they used their free > will. Did they love God or turn their backs on God? Did they violate God's > commandments or follow the commandments? Did they love or hate? Did they > do good or evil? etc. > Jason Hi, Jason, my dear. I am glad to hear you saying fooly things. There is not any need for a god to create robots. By example, "god" put limits to our capacity and abilities, isn't it? By example, we cannot feed ourselves by grazing like cows. We cannot swim or go fishing like we were dolphins, we cannot fly like the albatross or the geese for thousand of miles, and so on. So, these animals are not robots. I told you in another post, that you are unable to do certain things. There is something inside your mind that make you unable to do it, or even wish it. Isn't so? In general, I suppose you are not molesting kids, you are not a serial killer, you are not holding up banks, you are probably not betting casinos in Las Vegas, you are not fornicating with other men, and so on. Now, here comes out the question. Do you think that you are behaving like you were a robot? If your god were a good father, as religious people like to posit, He would had made us incapable of doing bad things. All we could have been able to do, were to behave correctly, as most of the people do. By behaving correctly, I am not testing positive of being a robot. Are you a robot, Jason? Must of us are not robots. Our behavior is unpredictable to a certain point. We cannot be 100% sure, what will be our next movement. So we are not robots. Religious people speak about "temptations". They must be mild, those temptations, Jason. Sometimes, we like a little bit the wife of our neighbor, but most of us do not need to fight the urge of gropping her bottocks. Perhaps, we feel a little envy, for someone who earn a lot of money. But our sins rarely go farther than that. So, the people who behave properly, and had not any sort of temptation, I grave or serious temptations, can be called "robotic"? Do you think, that any ordinary folk, can be called robotic, because they have not serious or "punishable by prision" wishes? You have to find a different argument, dear Jason. This one is not good. Bramble Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason wrote: > Bob, Jason, > There is a world of difference between conducting scientific experiments > in labs compared to creating a star. There is a world of difference between conducting scientific experiments in labs compared to evolution on a worldwide scale that took billions of years (or abiogenesis that took place on a planetary scale over possibly thousands or millions of years.) > The scientists believe that it happened naturally. It's very likely that > it involved elements (or a combination of elements) and amino acids. > > If it happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to cause it > happen again. "If forming a sun happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to cause it happen again." Maybe the odds are such that it would take a lab 10,000,000 years to have the same thing happen again. But on a planetary basis, that might mean it happens daily (we just don't happen to be there that one time it does) or that it could have happened daily under those circumstances that existed 3.5 billion years ago but not under the conditions we now have. Just because it happened once doesn't mean we can always repeat it. The lottery happened to hit 1-20-22-46-54-63 once. Does that mean you can duplicate that "in a lab"? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 In article <5j6073t6418s8hkdp6if2lent5csp58i7s@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > >In article <1181699847.672385.230670@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > ><phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jun 13, 8:33 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:50:33 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > >> > Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote in > >> > <1181613033.399853.282...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: > >> > > >> > >On Jun 12, 7:48 am, Matt Silberstein > >> > ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> And, yet, you know that when Christians pray and things happen it is > >> > >> because they pray. But somehow when Muslims pray and things happen it > >> > >> is not because God did it. > >> > > >> > >Not Yahweh anyway. > >> > > >> > Of course it is. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahai all agree that > >> > they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Sure, they all tell > >> > different stories and claim the others are wrong, but they're all pretty > >> > clear that they worship the same God. > >> > > >> > If there is a God, it appears that He enjoys the confusion, because He's > >> > made no effort to clear it up. > >> > >> Genesis 1 talks of the Elohim. It is Genesis 2 that speaks of > >> Yahweh. According to Exodus, Yahweh insisted that he be worshipped > >> ahead of "other gods". > >> > >> Martin > > > >They are different names for God. > > > "God" is a name. Good point--I should have wrote--They are different names for Yahweh. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 In article <1181730475.609821.95410@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > On 12 Jun., 20:31, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <1181649634.232900.8...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 12, 1:00 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > In article <1181614412.939840.97...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 12, 9:39 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > In article <kkor63tinbmus479tfljt5ib6lmn7o9...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > > > > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:31:38 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > > > > > <Jason-1106071731380...@66-52-22-97.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > >Bramble, > > > > > > > >I agree with many of the points you made. When God created > > mankind, he > > > > > > > >gave us free will. He did not create robots that were > > programmed to do > > > > > > > >only good things. As a result of free will, people can decide > > to do great > > > > > > > >and wonderful things or can use their free will to decide to commit > > > > > > > >criminal acts. > > > > > > > > > >God is indirectly responsible since he created the solar system and > > > > > > > >created life--including mankind. However, when people end up in > > prison > > > > > > > >it's not God's fault. It's the fault of the person that was > > > > exercising his > > > > > > > >or her free will. > > > > > > > > > >Do you see my point? > > > > > > > > > Man came about as a result of evolution. That is what the > > evidence shows > > > > > > > us. If God created man, He used evolution. You refuse to accept that > > > > > > > fact. You prefer lies to the truth, ignorance to knowledge. You call > > > > > > > your God a liar. > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > The first chapter of the book of Genesis states that God > > > > > > > You keep talking about your imaginary friend as if he were real. You > > > > > need to be commited for psychiatric observation. > > > > > > They will have to build a lot of mental hospitals. According to the 2005 > > > > Time Almanac, there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world. (page 359). > > > > > Yes, the rational people of the world have a lot of work to do. You > > > don't think we know that? > > > > > Martin > > > > Martin, > > They place Christians in prisons and mental hospitals in communist > > countries. Do you want the government to do the same thing in America? > > Why would you ask such an insulting question? Nothing was said that > suggested such a thing. Such a question amounts to a lie. See this: > > > > You keep talking about your imaginary friend as if he were real. You > > > > need to be commited for psychiatric observation. > > A Christian in Viet Nam was recently murdered by prison guards. > > Which has nothing to do with anything being discussed. What a nasty, > vicious creature you are. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 In article <1181728605.275234.304810@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > On 12 Jun., 20:28, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > In article <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Ma= > rtin > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > God > > > > > > > God doesn't exist. > > > > > > > created mankind, he > > > > > > gave us free will. > > > > > > > Free will doesn't exist. > > > > > > > You're 0 for 2. > > > > > > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands free will, > > > > many Bible doctrines and even issues related to life; sociological and > > > > psychological issues--make sense. For example, I now understand why s= > ome > > > > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month each yea= > r in > > > > third world countries. I also understand why some people do terrible > > > > things such as becoming murderers or rapists. > > > > > Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten > > > people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men who > > > killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in their > > > god? > > > > > Martin > > > > Martin, > > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to God--but they > > are wrong. You can find many cases in history where people done terrible > > things that they believed were pleasing to God--but were not pleasing to > > God. > > Jason- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > > > > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > > How do you know what is pleasing to god? According to your own Bible > god has ordered mass killing and punished those who did not obey the > order. You really should not second-guess god; he may not like it, > just as he may not like all the lies you tell. Do you think that when men fly jets into buildings and kill 3000 people--that it is or is not pleasing to God? In that case, it's easy to figure out how God feels about it. There is a commandment that states: Thou shall not Murder. Quote
Guest Jim07D7 Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: >In article <5j6073t6418s8hkdp6if2lent5csp58i7s@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 ><Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: <...> >> > >> >They are different names for God. >> > >> "God" is a name. > >Good point--I should have wrote--They are different names for Yahweh. > "Yahweh" is a name. When Moses asked (Exodus 3:14), the reply was not a name. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 In article <1181731203.831317.84170@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > On 12 Jun., 22:03, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <Xns994D94878C66Ffreddyb...@66.150.105.47>, Fred Stone > > > > > > > > > > > > <fston...@earthling.com> wrote: > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > >news:Jason-1206071222580001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net: > > > > > > In article <5d83hcF31q6f...@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > > > > <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > > > >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > > >>news:Jason-1206071128330001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > >> > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > >> > Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> >> On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >> >> > In article > > > >> >> > <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > >> >> > Martin > > > > > >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >> >> > > > God > > > > > >> >> > > God doesn't exist. > > > > > >> >> > > created mankind, he > > > >> >> > > > gave us free will. > > > > > >> >> > > Free will doesn't exist. > > > > > >> >> > > You're 0 for 2. > > > > > >> >> > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands free > > > >> >> > will, many Bible doctrines and even issues related to life; > > > >> >> > sociological and psychological issues--make sense. For example, > > > >> >> > I now understand why some > > > >> >> > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month > > > >> >> > each year in > > > >> >> > third world countries. I also understand why some people do > > > >> >> > terrible things such as becoming murderers or rapists. > > > > > >> >> Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten > > > >> >> people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men who > > > >> >> killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in > > > >> >> their god? > > > > > >> >> Martin > > > > > >> > Martin, > > > >> > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > > >> > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to > > > >> > God--but they are wrong. You can find many cases in history where > > > >> > people done terrible things that they believed were pleasing to > > > >> > God--but were not pleasing to God. > > > >> > Jason > > > > > >> Who are you to judge? > > > > > > It's easy to judge the actions of the men that killed 3000 people on > > > > 9/11. > > > > > It's easy to find people who will tell us what a blasphemous infidel you > > > are for saying that the 9/11 Jihadists were not pleasing Allah with > > > their actions. > > > > You already know that millions of people in America agree that the actions > > of those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > > Meaning that they, like you, are judging god. What is their > authority? God stated in one of his commandments: "Thou shall not murder" so in this case it's easy to determine how God feels about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Fred Stone > > > aa# 1369 > > > "When they put out that deadline, people realized that we were going to > > > lose," said an aide to an anti-war lawmaker. "Everything after that > > > seemed like posturing."- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > > > > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > > > > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - Quote
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