Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 3:35 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181730475.609821.95...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On 12 Jun., 20:31, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1181649634.232900.8...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 12, 1:00 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > In article <1181614412.939840.97...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Martin > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 12, 9:39 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > > In article <kkor63tinbmus479tfljt5ib6lmn7o9...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > > > > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:31:38 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > > > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > > > > > > <Jason-1106071731380...@66-52-22-97.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > >Bramble, > > > > > > > > >I agree with many of the points you made. When God created > > > mankind, he > > > > > > > > >gave us free will. He did not create robots that were > > > programmed to do > > > > > > > > >only good things. As a result of free will, people can decide > > > to do great > > > > > > > > >and wonderful things or can use their free will to decide > to commit > > > > > > > > >criminal acts. > > > > > > > > > >God is indirectly responsible since he created the solar > system and > > > > > > > > >created life--including mankind. However, when people end up in > > > prison > > > > > > > > >it's not God's fault. It's the fault of the person that was > > > > > exercising his > > > > > > > > >or her free will. > > > > > > > > > >Do you see my point? > > > > > > > > > Man came about as a result of evolution. That is what the > > > evidence shows > > > > > > > > us. If God created man, He used evolution. You refuse to > accept that > > > > > > > > fact. You prefer lies to the truth, ignorance to knowledge. > You call > > > > > > > > your God a liar. > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > The first chapter of the book of Genesis states that God > > > > > > > You keep talking about your imaginary friend as if he were real. You > > > > > > need to be commited for psychiatric observation. > > > > > > They will have to build a lot of mental hospitals. According to the 2005 > > > > > Time Almanac, there are 1.9 billion Christians in the world. (page 359). > > > > > Yes, the rational people of the world have a lot of work to do. You > > > > don't think we know that? > > > > > Martin > > > > Martin, > > > They place Christians in prisons and mental hospitals in communist > > > countries. Do you want the government to do the same thing in America? > > > Why would you ask such an insulting question? Nothing was said that > > suggested such a thing. Such a question amounts to a lie. > > See this: > > > > > > > > You keep talking about your imaginary friend as if he were real. You > > > > > need to be commited for psychiatric observation. > > > A Christian in Viet Nam was recently murdered by prison guards. > > > Which has nothing to do with anything being discussed. What a nasty, > > vicious creature you are. So? The fact is, you are crazy, Jason, and you should be committed. You are a danger to society. Period. Martin Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:41:10 -0700, Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: - Refer: <n6h073ld1g9di7lnunsl1cnb3scf0n4fj0@4ax.com> >Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: > >>In article <5j6073t6418s8hkdp6if2lent5csp58i7s@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 >><Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: >> >>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: ><...> >>> > >>> >They are different names for God. >>> > >>> "God" is a name. >> >>Good point--I should have wrote--They are different names for Yahweh. >> > >"Yahweh" is a name. > >When Moses asked (Exodus 3:14), the reply was not a name. In Hebrew it was "hayah hayah". "I am that I am". Which makes about as much sense as anything in the vile pornographic tome. -- Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 3:39 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181728605.275234.304...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On 12 Jun., 20:28, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > In article <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Ma= > > rtin > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > God doesn't exist. > > > > > > > created mankind, he > > > > > > > gave us free will. > > > > > > > Free will doesn't exist. > > > > > > > You're 0 for 2. > > > > > > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands free will, > > > > > many Bible doctrines and even issues related to life; sociological and > > > > > psychological issues--make sense. For example, I now understand why s= > > ome > > > > > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month each yea= > > r in > > > > > third world countries. I also understand why some people do terrible > > > > > things such as becoming murderers or rapists. > > > > > Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten > > > > people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men who > > > > killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in their > > > > god? > > > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to God--but they > > > are wrong. You can find many cases in history where people done terrible > > > things that they believed were pleasing to God--but were not pleasing to > > > God. > > > How do you know what is pleasing to god? According to your own Bible > > god has ordered mass killing and punished those who did not obey the > > order. You really should not second-guess god; he may not like it, > > just as he may not like all the lies you tell. > > Do you think that when men fly jets into buildings and kill 3000 > people--that it is or is not pleasing to God? In that case, it's easy to > figure out how God feels about it. There is a commandment that states: > Thou shall not Murder. http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm Murder in the Bible The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children. The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Capital Punishment Crimes: Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Witches You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) Kill Homosexuals "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Hitting Dad Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death for Adultery If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill False Prophets If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill Followers of Other Religions. 1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) 2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) Death for Blasphemy One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT) Kill False Prophets 1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) 2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT) Infidels and Gays Should Die So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT) Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons: Kill Brats From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB) God Kills the Curious And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth- shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV) Killed by a Lion Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT) Killing the Good Samaritan The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals. When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Murdering Children Kill Sons of Sinners Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB) God Will Kill Children The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) Kill Men, Women, and Children "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all - old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) God Kills all the First Born of Egypt And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) Kill Old Men and Young Women "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.) God Will Kill the Children of Sinners If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT) More Rape and Baby Killing Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Miscellaneous Murders More of Samson's Murders (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB) Peter Kills Two People There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this - conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT) Mass Murder This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB) You Have to Kill Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB) The Danites Kill the Next Town But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB) God Kills Some More Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT) God Promises More Killing I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT) The Angel of Death My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB) Destruction of Ai Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night. Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open. Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua. When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day - twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT) Killing at Jericho When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT) God Kills an Extended Family "You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT) Mass Murder The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB) The Angel of Death That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB) Kill Your Neighbors (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT) Kill the Family of Sinners And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible) Kill Followers of Other Religions While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT) Murder At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT) Kill All of Babylon "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT) Micah Kills a Whole Town Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.) Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 3:41 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181731203.831317.84...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On 12 Jun., 22:03, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <Xns994D94878C66Ffreddyb...@66.150.105.47>, Fred Stone > > > > <fston...@earthling.com> wrote: > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > >news:Jason-1206071222580001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net: > > > > > > In article <5d83hcF31q6f...@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > > > > > <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > > > >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > > > >>news:Jason-1206071128330001@66-52-22-95.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > > >> > In article <1181649884.050718.194...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > >> > Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> >> On Jun 12, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> >> > In article > > > > >> >> > <1181611488.232237.92...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > >> >> > Martin > > > > > >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > On Jun 12, 8:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > God > > > > > >> >> > > God doesn't exist. > > > > > >> >> > > created mankind, he > > > > >> >> > > > gave us free will. > > > > > >> >> > > Free will doesn't exist. > > > > > >> >> > > You're 0 for 2. > > > > > >> >> > I disagree--Free Will does exist. Once a person understands free > > > > >> >> > will, many Bible doctrines and even issues related to life; > > > > >> >> > sociological and psychological issues--make sense. For example, > > > > >> >> > I now understand why some > > > > >> >> > people do wonderful thing such as doctors that spend a month > > > > >> >> > each year in > > > > >> >> > third world countries. I also understand why some people do > > > > >> >> > terrible things such as becoming murderers or rapists. > > > > > >> >> Are you still telling us that you would be capable of killing ten > > > > >> >> people a day if you didn't believe in God? What about the men who > > > > >> >> killed 3000 people on September 11th because they believed in > > > > >> >> their god? > > > > > >> >> Martin > > > > > >> > Martin, > > > > >> > Those people that do such things are not pleasing to God. > > > > >> > They may believe or think that their actions are pleasing to > > > > >> > God--but they are wrong. You can find many cases in history where > > > > >> > people done terrible things that they believed were pleasing to > > > > >> > God--but were not pleasing to God. > > > > >> > Jason > > > > > >> Who are you to judge? > > > > > > It's easy to judge the actions of the men that killed 3000 people on > > > > > 9/11. > > > > > It's easy to find people who will tell us what a blasphemous infidel you > > > > are for saying that the 9/11 Jihadists were not pleasing Allah with > > > > their actions. > > > > You already know that millions of people in America agree that the actions > > > of those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > Meaning that they, like you, are judging god. What is their > > authority? > > God stated in one of his commandments: Your imaginary friend is incapable of saying anything because he doesn't exist. Martin Quote
Guest stoney Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 06:20:42 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote in alt.atheism >On 9 Jun., 22:22, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote: >> On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:05:17 +0200, Tokay Pino Gris >> <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote in alt.atheism >> >> >> >> >> >> >stoney wrote: >> >> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:23:58 +0200, Tokay Pino Gris >> >> <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote in alt.atheism >> >> >>> Jason wrote: >> >>>> In article <1180745678.345285.282...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >> >>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>>> On Jun 2, 1:48 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >>>>>> Please answer the questions that I found when I googled "10 questions for >> >>>>>> evolutionists" >> >> >>>>>> 10 Questions for Evolutionists Home >> >> >>>>>> 1. When the "Big Bang" (big bunk!) supposedly began the universe - what >> >>>>>> banged? Where did that first piece of matter come from, if not God? Where >> >>>>>> did the energy come from that caused the bang? Where did the space come >> >>>>>> from that the bang expanded into? >> >> >>>>> Where do you think your God came from? >> >> >>>> You answered a question with a question. Would you let your students get >> >>>> away with that? >> >>> I would EXPECT them to do that. If a student can come up with a good >> >>> next question, he shows that he understood my question and took it a >> >>> step further. That rates an "A" (or a "1" here, or "15 points", >> >>> depending on what grade he is in.) >> >> >> Your point flew 20,000 metres above his bone ear spacers. >> >> >I know. You cannot imagine how glad I am that he lives in another >> >country.... >> >> True, but I've got a damn good idea. I wish the brain dead fuckwits DID >> live in another country. They're so damned uncivilized. > >Don't try to dump your gene pool pollutants in other countries. I haven't. -- Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. Quote
Guest stoney Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:30:02 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism >[snips] > >On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:13:09 -0700, Jason wrote: > >> Yes, I believe there was a global flood. > >And the fact that there is absolutely no evidence to back this up doesn't >bother you? Funny, you demand a far more stringent support from science >than any science ever did, yet when it comes to notions from a 2,000 year >old book, well, fuck evidence, you just believe. > >And you wonder why people think you're an idiot. We know he's an idiot. The objective supporting evidence is overwhelming. -- Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. Quote
Guest stoney Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:11:16 +0930, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in alt.atheism >On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:26:34 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote: > - Refer: <d73m639m2lhkvk6a5csgp5b87ssk28ubkn@4ax.com> >>On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 21:47:26 +0930, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> >>wrote in alt.atheism >> >>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 17:54:55 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote: >>> - Refer: <j2d963teubu5nqcelrtiebcs74obad5m1q@4ax.com> >>>>On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:32:20 +0930, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> >>>>wrote in alt.atheism >>>> >>>>>On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:55:30 -0700, George Chen >>>>><georgechen2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> - Refer: <1180940130.734812.145150@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> >>>>>>On Jun 4, 11:03 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>> In article <91q66392u07lc87upssrutbd25pvh9k...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>>> >>>>>>> <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> > Chemicals come from prior chemical processes. Atoms more complex than >>>>>>> > hydrogen come from stellar fusion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How did the chemicals in the prior chemical processes come to be? You >>>>>>> mentioned steller fusion--you need to explain what you mean. I was taught >>>>>>> that steller refers to a star or stars. >>>>>> >>>>>>It does. That's why he shouldn't have to understand what he means. >>>>>> >>>>>>See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_fusion >>>>> >>>>>Note that the village idiot said "steller". >>>>>This is a reference to an extinct sea cow. >>>>>Steller fusion is two extinct sea cows mating. >>>> >>>>That would be a neat trick. >>> >>>I "bags" the film rights, ok? >> >>Yeah, go ahead and milk it. > >You just volunteered as an extra. Extra extra read all about it. -- Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 3:49 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181731971.306554.97...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 13, 3:45 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > > >news:Jason-1206072140050001@66-52-22-63.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > > > Bob, > > > > There is a world of difference between conducting scientific experiments > > > > in labs compared to creating a star. > > > > > The scientists believe that it happened naturally. It's very likely that > > > > it involved elements (or a combination of elements) and amino acids. > > > > > If it happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to cause it > > > > happen again. > > > > So you think scientist should be able to create stars in the laboratory? > > > And their failure to do so implies that there is a 'god' who created them > > > instead? > > > Of course if his god created mankind then his god should be able to do > > it again. Don't hold your breath wanting for another species of man > > to appear. > As of now, many of the aspects of abiogenesis are based on speculation > instead of evidence. Experiments like the one mentioned above would > produce evidence. You haven't been honest with us, Jason. (Surprise.) I checked your profile: you were here on alt.atheism once before back in November of 2005 claiming to be "an advocate of creation science". You would have been told back then that there was no such thing and you've had a year and a half to produce evidence for us and yet the only "evidence" you have is that some woman claimed to have had her leg grow two inches. That's pathetic. You said you "donated" Gish's book to a bookstore and that you no longer have your old chemistry textbook but you've had time to go get another copy of Gish's book and read up on biology, chemistry, physics, psychiatry, archeology, linguistics, any subject that you feel is somehow relevent to the subject. But you haven't and it's becoming increasingly clear that you won't. You're just wasting our time. If you were really ever going to seriously look at any of the evidence for evolution or abiogenesis you would have done so a long time ago. The evidence is out there: you wouldn't have to take our word for it if you had ever bothered to look. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 4:26 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f4otjc$j2...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > I was referring to these two steps: > > > > STEP 1 Single cell (example: bacteria) > > > STEP 2 Single animal cell (with DNA nucleus capable of sexual reproduction) > > > And leaving out the millions of steps that came before and between. > > > > Testimony is considered as evidence in court. Someone pointed out that > > > physical evidence (eg gun, bloody knife) is more important than testimony. > > > I agreed with that person that made that statement. > > > > Let's say that the neighbors in an apartment building hear a married > > > couple having an argument. They hear the husband say, "I'm going to kill > > > you". The argument ends and the police are not called. The following day, > > > the wife was shot as she was walking home from work. The husband took a > > > shower after he shot his wife and washed his hands with bleach to remove > > > any evidence. There were no witnesses present when the husband shot his > > > wife. The police are not able to find a gun when they search the apartment > > > and all surrounding areas. They arrest the husband and charge him with the > > > murder. All of the neighbors provide testimony at the murder trial. > > > > The jury members convict the husband of first degree murder--based upon > > > the testimonies of the people that heard the argument and heard him say, > > > "I'm going to kill you." > > > No, they wouldn't. You'd never even find a DA that would even think > > about arresting the guy to begin with, much less prosecuting him, based > > on simply an "I'm going to kill you." Was there even a body? > > > > Do you now understand that TESTIMONY is evidence--even if there is no > > > physical evidence? > > > Testimony is simply evidence that the person says he > > saw/heard/tasted/smelled/felt something but NOT evidence that the > > something actually exists.. But if the neighbor claimed "Yeah, I saw him > > shoot her and bury her body right here" and yet there was no body found > > (or better yet, the wife is actually standing there, alive and well) the > > testimony would likely be ignored. > > Let's try again: Let's not bother. You are getting tiresome. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 4:03 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f4pa1r$vp...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > In article <opc3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> [snips] > > > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:42:26 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >>> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that > > >>> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? > > >> Honestly, by stating the cause - if any, you haven't validated even this > > >> much yet - simply isn't known yet. > > > >> "I don't know" is not the same as "Yes, there really is a super being who, > > >> of all the thousands of such beings described, just happens to match this > > >> particular one and he really does heal people, but does it magically > > >> without leaving any evidence he did it - or even that he exists." > > > >> You see how those differ? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > > Have you considered that God is giving you evidence that he exists by > > > healing people? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > Are all the people that aren't healed evidence that there is no god? > > > BTW, if I went to a doctor that had as bad of a healing rate as your > > god, I'd sue him for malpractice. > > The people (like Cheryl Prewitt) that are healed by God ie your imaginary friend. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 4:31 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f4pd81$3l...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > Bob, > > > Jason, > > > > There is a world of difference between conducting scientific experiments > > > in labs compared to creating a star. > > > There is a world of difference between conducting scientific experiments > > in labs compared to evolution on a worldwide scale that took billions of > > years (or abiogenesis that took place on a planetary scale over possibly > > thousands or millions of years.) > > > > The scientists believe that it happened naturally. It's very likely that > > > it involved elements (or a combination of elements) and amino acids. > > > > If it happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to cause it > > > happen again. > > > "If forming a sun happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to > > cause it happen again." > > > Maybe the odds are such that it would take a lab 10,000,000 years to > > have the same thing happen again. But on a planetary basis, that might > > mean it happens daily (we just don't happen to be there that one time it > > does) or that it could have happened daily under those circumstances > > that existed 3.5 billion years ago but not under the conditions we now have. > > > Just because it happened once doesn't mean we can always repeat it. The > > lottery happened to hit 1-20-22-46-54-63 once. Does that mean you can > > duplicate that "in a lab"? > > Do you acknowledge that many of the aspects of abiogenesis are based upon > speculation and not on evidence--such at the results of experiments. Do you acknowledge that all religions have been based on speculation and that there has never been a shred of evidence supporting the supernatural aspects of any of them? Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 4:49 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181759527.190743.38...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, bramble > > > > > > > > <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 13 jun, 00:37, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1181683568.769547.221...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > > > bramble <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 12 jun, 15:20, gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > On 12 Jun., 08:12, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > > > But the parents are not responsible for the behavior of an adult > > > > > > > competent child. They may regret have given birth to that > child, but > > > > > > > they are not legally responsible for his actions after attaining > > > > > > > majority. They may have raised him in a way that led him to > commit his > > > > > > > crimes, but that is a psychological issue rather than a legal > one. It > > > > > > > might be a moral issue, depending on how they raised him. > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > cactus, > > > > > > My point was that God is like the parents. > > > > > > What utter nonsense! The parents are not all-powerful. They cannot > > > > > possibly be responsible for everything the child does. > > > > > > In much the same way the > > > > > > > parents were indirectly responsible for the murder since the > murder would > > > > > > not have happened if the son had never been born--God is indirectly > > > > > > responsible for evil, since evil would never have happened if > God had not > > > > > > created the solar system and life. > > > > > > Your analogy is transparently invalid. > > > > > If parents would had the ability to change for the better the behavior > > > > of his son, he would surely do it. We want that he would be free, but > > > > free to drive a reasonable life. We, as parents, do no want our kids > > > > to fall into a pool of shit. > > > > But, sometimes, we are too busy or we are not enough vlever, and our > > > > kids began to show bad a attitude, and we do not know how to change or > > > > reverse this. > > > > If we were like gods, our kids would have freedom to behave in a nice > > > > manner and to keep out of trouble. But we are not gods. > > > > So, go is a very bad parent. And this analogy posited by Jason is not > > > > valid. > > > > If there is a god, he would surely change all that. And this is one > > > > of the proves that there is not any god. > > > > Bramble > > > > God could have created robots that were programmed by God to do only kind > > > and wonderful things and never do bad things such as murder. Instead of > > > creating programmed robots, God created people that had free will. People > > > will eventually be judged by God in relation to how they used their free > > > will. Did they love God or turn their backs on God? Did they violate God's > > > commandments or follow the commandments? Did they love or hate? Did they > > > do good or evil? etc. > > > Jason > > > Hi, Jason, my dear. > > I am glad to hear you saying fooly things. > > There is not any need for a god to create robots. > > By example, "god" put limits to our capacity and abilities, isn't > > it? > > By example, we cannot feed ourselves by grazing like cows. We cannot > > swim or go fishing like we were dolphins, we cannot fly like the > > albatross or the geese for thousand of miles, and so on. > > So, these animals are not robots. > > > I told you in another post, that you are unable to do certain things. > > There is something inside your mind that make you unable to do it, or > > even wish it. Isn't so? > > In general, I suppose you are not molesting kids, > > you are not a serial killer, > > you are not holding up banks, > > you are probably not betting casinos in Las Vegas, > > you are not fornicating with other men, > > and so on. > > Now, here comes out the question. > > > Do you think that you are behaving like you were a robot? > > If your god were a good father, as religious people like to posit, > > He would had made us incapable of doing bad things. > > All we could have been able to do, were to behave correctly, as most > > of the people do. > > By behaving correctly, I am not testing positive of being a robot. > > Are you a robot, Jason? Must of us are not robots. Our behavior is > > unpredictable to a certain point. We cannot be 100% sure, what will > > be our next movement. So we are not robots. > > Religious people speak about "temptations". They must be mild, those > > temptations, Jason. Sometimes, we like a little bit the wife of our > > neighbor, but most of us do not need to fight the urge of gropping her > > bottocks. > > Perhaps, we feel a little envy, for someone who earn a lot of money. > > But our sins rarely go farther than that. > > So, the people who behave properly, and had not any sort of > > temptation, I grave or serious temptations, can be called "robotic"? > > Do you think, that any ordinary folk, can be called robotic, because > > they have not serious or "punishable by prision" wishes? > > You have to find a different argument, dear Jason. > > This one is not good. > > Bramble > > Bramble, > You are discussing free will. No, I do not believe I am behaving like I > was a robot. And yet you, above all, are doing exactly that. You don't even have independent thoughts. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 7:11 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <odl0739cjhpq0mo1kcpo2lpbbjo6mgj...@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 > > > > > > <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote: > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > > >In article <n6h073ld1g9di7lnunsl1cnb3scf0n4...@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 > > ><Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote: > > > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > > >> >In article <5j6073t6418s8hkdp6if2lent5csp58...@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 > > >> ><Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote: > > > >> >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > >> <...> > > > >> >> >They are different names for God. > > > >> >> "God" is a name. > > > >> >Good point--I should have wrote--They are different names for Yahweh. > > > >> "Yahweh" is a name. > > > >> When Moses asked (Exodus 3:14), the reply was not a name. > > > >You are correct. > > > >I seem to recall that the Bible scholars state that the actual name for > > >God is impossible to pronouce. It's something like "I am" > > >Jason > > > I believe that on this subject, silence is appropriate. > > agreed And yet oddly you never shut the f ck up. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 7:13 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <WgYbi.3170$s8.2...@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > > > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-1306071303300001@66-52-22-31.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <f4pa1r$vp...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > > >> > In article <opc3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > >> > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> [snips] > > > >> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:42:26 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >> >>> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated > > >> >>> that > > >> >>> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? > > >> >> Honestly, by stating the cause - if any, you haven't validated even > > >> >> this > > >> >> much yet - simply isn't known yet. > > > >> >> "I don't know" is not the same as "Yes, there really is a super being > > >> >> who, > > >> >> of all the thousands of such beings described, just happens to match > > >> >> this > > >> >> particular one and he really does heal people, but does it magically > > >> >> without leaving any evidence he did it - or even that he exists." > > > >> >> You see how those differ? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > >> > Have you considered that God is giving you evidence that he exists by > > >> > healing people? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > >> Are all the people that aren't healed evidence that there is no god? > > > >> BTW, if I went to a doctor that had as bad of a healing rate as your > > >> god, I'd sue him for malpractice. > > > > The people (like Cheryl Prewitt) that are healed by God are evidence that > > > there is a God. Even when Jesus was on this earth, he did not heal > > > everyone that needed to be healed. > > > Mighty convenient Jason, your god doesn't heal all just select ones. I guess > > you need it that way to fit what we all know to be reality. > > If God healed all people of all medical problems--people would never die. Which would actually be too bad because death, mutation and reproduction are the driving forces of evolution. Good thing God doesn't exist then or we wouldn't even be here. Martin Quote
Guest Jeckyl Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-1306071714030001@66-52-22-38.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > Without the experiments, abiogenesis will never be nothing more than > speculations about how it might have happened. Never by ANYTHING more i think you meant. Of course, it has more evidence to support it than the incredibly unlikely and scientifically impossible explanations of the bible .. calling those stories speculation is being generous. Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 7:22 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <46n0735npa5v05vudinp6rpte4i50rr...@4ax.com>, Don Kresch > > > > > > > > <ROT13.qxer...@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > > In alt.atheism On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:03:30 -0700, J...@nospam.com > > (Jason) let us all know that: > > > >In article <f4pa1r$vp...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > ><prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > > >> > In article <opc3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > >> > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> [snips] > > > >> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:42:26 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >> >>> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that > > >> >>> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened? > > >> >> Honestly, by stating the cause - if any, you haven't validated > even this > > >> >> much yet - simply isn't known yet. > > > >> >> "I don't know" is not the same as "Yes, there really is a super > being who, > > >> >> of all the thousands of such beings described, just happens to > match this > > >> >> particular one and he really does heal people, but does it magically > > >> >> without leaving any evidence he did it - or even that he exists." > > > >> >> You see how those differ? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > >> > Have you considered that God is giving you evidence that he exists by > > >> > healing people? Maybe, some day, you'll let it sink in. > > > >> Are all the people that aren't healed evidence that there is no god? > > > >> BTW, if I went to a doctor that had as bad of a healing rate as your > > >> god, I'd sue him for malpractice. > > > >The people (like Cheryl Prewitt) that are healed by God > > > She was healed by god because you say so. That doesn't fly. > > Cheryl Prewitt told me that she was healed by God. So? Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 7:33 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181767645.983506.69...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, bramble > > > > > > <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 13 jun, 21:01, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <7f50735gqg9n7ifa3ib8ucmhc2t0jd9...@4ax.com>, John Baker > > > > <n...@bizniz.net> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:48:04 -0700, gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > >On 12 Jun., 19:42, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> In article <1181643770.817395.36...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > >> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > >> > On 11 Jun., 21:54, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> > > In article <0de0k4-blk....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > > > >snip > > > > > >> > A person that has been healed is evidence that he was healed. It is > > > > >> > not evidence of a god. > > > > > >> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that > > > > >> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened?- > > > > > >I would not be able to explain it, and that is not evidence that god > > > > >did it. > > > > > But then, Jason isn't about to provide any evidence either..... > > > > Why bother--several have told me that if I provided physical evidence to > > > prove that her leg bone grew two inches, they would still not believe that > > > God healed her leg. > > > You are asking for imposibles, Jason. Dismissing the posibility of a > > cooked fraude... yes, frauds happens all the times. Well, dismissing > > the case of fraud, we are in front of an unexplained phenomenon. A > > phenomenon that we cannot explain is not the prove of any divine > > intervention. Just, we cannot yet explain the rain. We supose it is > > a natural phenomenon, bur it cannot be explained yet. Well, there is > > a lot of phenomenons we cannot explain. But these can be atributed to > > god by some people. But others simple confess "we cannot understand > > it or explain it." So, if this lady's leg really grew two inches, it > > is all right. But this is not the prove of an action on the part of > > God. > > In the past, all calamites were called, acts of god. Hurricanes, > > tornados, huge floods, persitent raining, droughts, earthquakes, > > sunamies... you name them. > > Acts of god. A very malevolent one, but the way. > > Bramble > > If her leg bone grew two inches--how would you explain how it happened? No it didn't. She lied. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 7:36 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <i9Zbi.6114$K8.3...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > > > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-1206072106570001@66-52-22-63.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <jbdu63dbf8uae5r7fv9mee2g40sb6q0...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 15:09:13 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > >> <Jason-1206071509130...@66-52-22-111.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > >> >In article <31d3k4-7or....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > >> ><kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> [snips] > > > >> >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:03:44 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >> >> >> It's easy to find people who will tell us what a blasphemous > > > infidel you > > >> >> >> are for saying that the 9/11 Jihadists were not pleasing Allah with > > >> >> >> their actions. > > > >> >> > You already know that millions of people in America agree that the > > > actions > > >> >> > of those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > >> >> "in America"? Oh, wonderful. Now someone's religion is invalidated > > >> >> simply by where they live . > > > >> >I mentioned America since those 3000 people were killed in America. > > >> >Millions of people in other countries also realize that the actions of > > >> >those men were not pleasing to Jehovah. > > > >> So you say. Apparently you never read the Old Testament. Jehovah was a > > >> pretty bloodthirsty tyrant. He might love the murders of 9/11 and the > > >> wars that happened afterward. > > > >> >What is your opinion about those men that killed 3000 people on 9/11? > > > >> They are evil. But I don't have to defend the evil acts that people do > > >> in the name of God. > > > >> Remember, they worship the same God you do. > > > > They worship a God named Allah. There were some people in the Bible that > > > worshipped a false God named Baal. Judges 2:13. I consider Allah to be a > > > false God. I already know people will diagree with me. > > > jason > > > How can you? They are the same god. Ironic isn't it. > > If you choose to believe that Jehovah and Allah are the same God--that is > up to you. I consider Baal and Allah to be false Gods. "Baal" is a Hebrew word meaning "Lord" and "Allah" originated from the Hebrew word "Eloah" which you said was a name of your god. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 8:10 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <UbZbi.6115$K8.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > > > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-1306070010510001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <1181708413.361881.208...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jun 13, 12:06 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >> > In article <jbdu63dbf8uae5r7fv9mee2g40sb6q0...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > >> > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> > > Remember, they worship the same God you do. > > > >> > They worship a God named Allah. There were some people in the Bible > > >> > that > > >> > worshipped a false God named Baal. Judges 2:13. I consider Allah to be > > >> > a > > >> > false God. I already know people will diagree with me. > > > >> Indeed. And what did the Hebrews do to people who worshipped that > > >> false god? > > > >> "While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled > > >> themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women > > >> invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the > > >> Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. > > >> Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing > > >> the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the > > >> following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute > > >> them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn > > >> away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to > > >> execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then > > >> one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, > > >> right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were > > >> weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of > > >> Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and > > >> left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into > > >> his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body > > >> and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites > > >> was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 > > >> NLT)" > > > >> The Moslems also think that Jehovah is a false god and they believe > > >> that Allah wants them to kill the followers of the false god. > > > >> Now do you understand. It is RELIGION that is the problem. It > > >> doesn't matter WHICH one. > > > >> Martin > > > > Martin, > > > The Muslims want to take over the world. They will do it by force. If > > > people don't become Muslims, they will kill them. The president of Iran > > > plans to start the next world war and he may succeed. Read the book, "The > > > Last Jihad". I copied this quotation from a book entitled, "Jerusalem > > > Countdown" > > > > A Muslim leader named Fayid Azzam made this statement in Brooklyn in 1989: > > > > "Blood must flow. There must be widows, orphans...hands and limbs must be > > > severed and limbs and blood must be spread everwhere in order that Allah's > > > religion can stand on it's feet." > > > >http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25136 > > > The Christians will do the same. Read the Old Testament for a change and > > tell me how great your god is. One of the main reasons I left Christianity > > was that no supernatural god could be as stupid and have all of the human > > characteristics as the god of the Hebrew OT. > > I read those same scriptures and learned that in some cases wars are > necessary. Examine the history of America. We dropped two Nuclear bombs on > Japan. America killed lots of people on that day. Are you still an > American? We would all now be speaking German if Hitler had not been > defeated in a world war. And we'd all be stupidly believing in God if you had your way. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 8:14 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1181767025.697731.49...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, bramble > <leopoldo.perd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 13 jun, 20:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1181731971.306554.97...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 13, 3:45 pm, "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > > > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > > > > >news:Jason-1206072140050001@66-52-22-63.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > There is a world of difference between conducting scientific > experiments > > > > > > in labs compared to creating a star. > > > > > > > The scientists believe that it happened naturally. It's very > likely that > > > > > > it involved elements (or a combination of elements) and amino acids. > > > > > > > If it happened once--naturally--scientists should be able to cause it > > > > > > happen again. > > > > > > So you think scientist should be able to create stars in the laboratory? > > > > > And their failure to do so implies that there is a 'god' who > created them > > > > > instead? > > > > > Of course if his god created mankind then his god should be able to do > > > > it again. Don't hold your breath wanting for another species of man > > > > to appear. > > > > > Martin > > > > Martin, > > > As of now, many of the aspects of abiogenesis are based on speculation > > > instead of evidence. Experiments like the one mentioned above would > > > produce evidence. > > > jason > > > This experiments would produce evidence, eventually. But not at the > > present state of our knowledge. This experiement is very difficult to > > carry out, because if there is any lumps of molecules that are in the > > path of becoming some sort of living microorganism, they cannot even > > spot them. This sort of proto-organism perhaps is very slow to > > develop, or otherwise, very difficult to identify. It is like looking > > for a needle in a barn full of straw. > > > Anyway, abiogensis is nothing but a theory. A reasonable one, by the > > way. But not all theories can be proved in a laboratory. Many of the > > scientific assertions can be falsifiable, but not all. Anyway, > > scientific theories can be pleasant to the mind, but not all of them > > can be proved right. Some can be wrong. Humans are not gods, > > remember? We are limited. > Without the experiments, abiogenesis will never be nothing more than > speculations about how it might have happened. Good thing scientists have physical evidence to back them up then? What physical evidence do you have? Nothing. And you've had a year and a half to provide something. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 8:37 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > Even if Jesus himself > > saiys not any word about this in the NT. > > Yes, he does. He forgave a prostitute for her sins. He could have had her > stoned to death--he did not do it. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the Christian concept of a loving god! Martin Quote
Guest stoney Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:45:02 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism >[snips] > >On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:54:47 -0700, Jason wrote: > >>> Am I? Have you considered how easily those of us here can refute >>> creationist "arguments"? >>> >>> Hint: we are not all university professors here. > >> It's easy for you to refute my arguments. > >Correct, because you don't back up any of them and choose instead to >simply run away screaming like a little girl when you get called on your >bullshit. > >> My master's degree is not >> related to biology or a related field. > >You don't need to tell us that; it is screamingly obvious. Jason's probably lying about that, too unless he paid 500 usd, or so, from a diploma mill. In which case he's an even bigger fool with a worthless degree. >> I doubt that you or anyone else >> could easily refute the arguments of Dr. D.T. Gish; K. Ham; M. Denton or >> any of the staff members that have Ph.D degrees that teach at the ICR >> college. > >Actually, we can. It's pretty trivial, in fact. > >> You still have spelled out to me how life came about from non-life. > >So? Science is not entirely certain of the mechanisms involved; there are >many notions under examination. So what? Are you really so completely >ignorant of science - not to mention basic thinking ability - that you >can't tell the difference between "We don't have an answer today" and >"the question can't be answered"? I've noted the last question was rhetorical. Is this the same idiot who stole the list and was determined to pray for everyone? >> One of the other members of this newsgroup told me something like this: >> We know that living cells came about from non-life, otherwise, there >> would not be living cells. > >Correct. > >> That is not good enough since I could say: Yes, we have living cells but >> I believe that it's because God created living cells. > >Which, as far as evolution is concerned, is fine. The abiogensis folks >might have issues with it, take it up with them. I understand Tiamat the Dragon is thoroughly pissed at the 'babe at first suck' Christian cretin deity for its pathetic attempt to steal credit that she's toasting his ass for eternity. >Again, you seem to be so completely ignorant That's better, but there's no 'seeming' about it. >of science you can't even >tell the difference between two entirely different fields. >> You will have to do better than that. > >If he's arguing abiogensis, he presumably will have to do better. If he's >arguing evolution, the question of origins is simply irrelevant. Christians have no argument. At all. All they've got is stolen bronze age bullshit from pig ignorant barbarians. -- Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. Quote
Guest Martin Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 9:05 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:11:04 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1206072011040...@66-52-22-63.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > >In article <1181690674.590547.210...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> On Jun 13, 1:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > In article <1181646992.799917.21...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> > > On 12 Jun., 02:47, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > > > In article <1181601347.999940.35...@r19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >Martin > > >> > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > > > > > In article > >> > > > > > <Jason-1006071559590...@66-52-22-36.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > > >> > > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > > > > > > She has > >> > > > > > > witnessed to thousands of people. > > >> > > > > Wow. She's lied to a lot of people then. I find that completely and > >> > > > > utterly morally reprehensible. It is also typical Godbot behaviour. > > >> > > > > Martin > > >> > > > the alternative is "she told the truth to a lot of people then." > > >> > > For which you have absolutely no objective evidence. You have even > >> > > pretty well made it clear that you believe it because you want to. If > >> > > one is a rational being, objective evidence is something that has to > >> > > be accepted, whether we like what it supports or not; but you believe > >> > > because you want to and, supposedly, reject evidence that does not > >> > > support what you like. This makes you irrational and dishonest. > > >> > Do you have objective evidence that time and physics did not exist prior > >> > to the Big Bang? > > >> > Do you have objective evidence that these are two of the steps involved in > >> > the evolution of mankind: > >> > STEP 1 Single cell (example: bacteria) > >> > STEP 2 Single animal cell (with DNA nucleus capable of sexual reproduction). > > >> Are you implying that we don't? > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis > >It is based on speculation. I have been told by two people (yourself > >included) that scientists have not conducted an experiment which had a > >result that showed that a single cell (example: bacteria) evolved into a > >single animal cell (with DNA nucleus capable of sexual reproductin). > > >I realize that scientists believe it happened millions of years ago. If it > >happened naturally millions of years ago, scientists should be able to > >make it happen again in a well designed experiment. > > So now you misuse the word speculation. > > Based on your prior behavior, it was a completely intentional attempt to > defame scientists. > > You are an evil man. Agreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis "A number of precepts in the theory are possible. For instance, a helical virus with a bilipid envelope bears a distinct resemblance to a highly simplified cellular nucleus (ie: a DNA chromosome encapsulated within a lipid membrane). To consider the concept logically, a large DNA virus would take control of a bacterial or archaeal cell. Instead of replicating and destroying the host cell, it would remain within the cell. With the virus in control of the host cell's molecular machinery it would effectively become a "nucleus" of sorts. Through the processes of mitosis and cytokinesis, the virus would thus hijack the entire cell-an extremely favourable way to ensure its survival." It's not speculation. Martin Quote
Guest stoney Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:30:01 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism >[snips] > >On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 19:20:49 -0700, Jason wrote: > >> I am trying to learn how life can develop from non-life. > >Which means you're attending courses at some respectable local college, or >spending a good portion of your time reading respectable reference works >from the library or bookstore, etc - not expecting people here to give you >the education you're apparently too damned lazy to go get for yourself. He's not interested in learning anything. -- Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others. Quote
Guest Martin Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 On Jun 14, 9:07 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 00:27:12 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1306070027120...@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > >In article <1181709266.371667.313...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, George > >Chen <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> On Jun 13, 12:44 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > In article <1181699847.672385.230...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> > > On Jun 13, 8:33 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> > > > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 18:50:33 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > >> > > > Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote in > >> > > > <1181613033.399853.282...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: > > >> > > > >On Jun 12, 7:48 am, Matt Silberstein > >> > > > ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > >> > > > >> And, yet, you know that when Christians pray and things happen it is > >> > > > >> because they pray. But somehow when Muslims pray and things happen it > >> > > > >> is not because God did it. > > >> > > > >Not Yahweh anyway. > > >> > > > Of course it is. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahai all agree that > >> > > > they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Sure, they all tell > >> > > > different stories and claim the others are wrong, but they're all pretty > >> > > > clear that they worship the same God. > > >> > > > If there is a God, it appears that He enjoys the confusion, because He's > >> > > > made no effort to clear it up. > > >> > > Genesis 1 talks of the Elohim. It is Genesis 2 that speaks of > >> > > Yahweh. According to Exodus, Yahweh insisted that he be worshipped > >> > > ahead of "other gods". > > >> > They are different names for God. > > >> They are different gods. I > >> read on wikipedia some speculation that Yahweh is > >> based on the Sumerian god Ea / Enki. > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahu > > >> "According to some, Yam was also called Ya'a or Yaw. > >> Damaged text in KTU 1.2 iv has been interpreted by > >> Mark S. Smith as describing a renaming of Yam from an > >> original name Yaw. The resemblance of the latter to > >> the Tetragrammaton YHWH led to speculation over a > >> possible connection between Yam and God of the Hebrew > >> Bible. However even if the reading is correct many > >> scholars argue the names have different roots and > >> reject the idea that they are related. Another > >> suggested reading of the name is Ya'a and it has also > >> been suggested as an early form of the divine name > >> Yah, Yahu. Earlier archaeologists like Theophilus G. > >> Pinches[1] quoted the research of Hommel, Professor of > >> Semitic languages at Munich, who suggested "that this > >> god Ya is another form of the name Ea...". By this > >> theory Ya'a thus appears to have been a God of the > >> waters, both salt (Yam) and fresh (Nahar), in some > >> ways similar to the Mesopotamian God Ea.[2] This view > >> has been supported in more recent times by > >> archaeologists like Jean Bottero[3] and others,[4] > >> although this is disputed by other scholars.[5][6]" > > >> In Sumerian mythology, Enki was the creator of > >> mankind. > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki > > >> "In Sumerian myth, Enki lay asleep in the depths of > >> the primeval ocean, unable to hear the lament of the > >> gods as they complained about the difficulty of > >> cultivating wheat and making bread. Eventually the > >> primeval sea, Nammu brought the gods' tears to Enki. > >> Enki, as the god of wisdom, was expected to devise a > >> solution, so he solicited Nammu and the birth-goddess > >> Ninmah to use clay to form the first men, who would > >> toil and farm so that the gods could relax. [7] > > >> [...] > > >> "Another myth, "Enki and Adapa", tells of how humanity > >> loses the chance at immortality. Adapa U-an (Berossus' > >> Oannes), who is Abgallu (Ab = Water, Gal = Great, Lu = > >> Man) (Akkadian Apkallu), Enki's advisor, to the first > >> king of Eridu, Allulim, inadvertently breaks the wings > >> of the South Wind, Ninlil (See Lilith) (Nin = Lady, > >> Lil = Air), daughter of Anu (the Heavens) and wife to > >> Enlil, king of the gods. In terror at the thought of > >> their retribution, Adapa seeks the advice of Enki. > >> Enki advises that Adapa make a deep and sincere > >> atonement, but advises Adapa to eat nothing given to > >> him by the gods, as he will probably be given the food > >> of death, out of their anger at his deeds. Adapa takes > >> Enki's advice, but the gods, so impressed by the > >> sincerity of Adapa's sorrow and grief as to what he > >> did, offered instead the fruit of immortality. Adapa > >> remembering Enki's words, refuses, and so misses out > >> on the chance of eternal life." > > >> So Enki created man and one of his creations was named > >> Adapa and Adapa angered the gods and ended up losing > >> his chance at eternal life. > > >> So who is Satan? "Satan" is a Hebrew word meaning > >> "adversary". > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan > > >> So who was the adversary of Yam? The adversary of Yam > >> was Baal ("Lord") Hadad. > > >> "Of all the gods, Yam holds special hostility against > >> Baal Hadad over the divine assembly. Yam is a deity of > >> the sea and his palace is in the abyss associated with > >> the depths, or Biblical tehwom, of the oceans. (This > >> is not to be confused with the abode of Mot, the ruler > >> of the netherworlds.) In Ugaritic texts, Yam's special > >> enemy Hadad is also known as the "king of heaven" and > >> the "first born son" of El, whom ancient Greeks > >> identified with their god Kronos, just as Baal was > >> identified with Zeus, Yam with Poseidon and Mot with > >> Hades. Yam wished to become the Lord god in his place. > >> In turns the two beings kill each other, yet Hadad is > >> resurrected and Yam also returns. Some authors have > >> suggested that these tales reflect the experience of > >> seasonal cycles in the Levant." > > >> Thus, we can see that Yahweh can be associated with > >> both the Sumerian god Enki and the Greek god Poseidon > >> while Hadad can be associated not only with the Greek > >> god Zeus (and the Roman god Jupiter) but also the > >> Akkadian god Adad, the Anatolian god Teshub, the > >> Egyptian god Set and the Sumerian god Ishkur. In > >> Sumerian mythology, Ishkur was sometimes refered to as > >> the son of Anu and brother of Enki and sometimes > >> refered to as the brother of Ishtar and a descendent > >> of both Enki and his brother Enlil. (See > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadad > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adad) > > >> That Ishkur was referred to as the son of Anu may be a > >> mistake based on the fact that he was considered one > >> of the Anunnaku, the race of beings descended from Anu > >> collectively known as the sons of Anu. (See > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu) > > >> It is worth pointing out at this point that Anu was > >> known to the Hebrews as El (See > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El) and that the Annuaki > >> correspond to the Hebrew Elohim (See > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim). The Islamic > >> name Allah is believed to be derived from the name El. > >> (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah). > > >> Historically then El (the creator of the universe) > >> and Yahweh (the creator of mankind) were not the same > >> god. Judeo-Christian tradition combines the two gods > >> into one. It would appear as though Genesis chapter > >> one originally spoke about El and Genesis chapter two > >> originally spoke about Yahweh. > > >In what Bible verse is El mentioned? > > Doesn't your study Bible address those inconsistencies? You should > demand your money back from folks who don't even deal with something > that basic. In all fairness, he forgets that the old testament was originally written in Hebrew and not English. Martin Quote
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