Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <bi2673ln94q4lj2t081r2pq6q27l1bhkas@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:20:32 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071220320001@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <ped573tr7gn2ml76ors2aaiq7b5oqmctb6@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:19:53 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-1406072019540001@66-52-22-82.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >In article <cis373lg4s0abmv6siu17mkkj6vl21sds1@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:11 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> >> <Jason-1406071937110001@66-52-22-82.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >> >In article <l0c373tfbfr5u281gigmjrqo37di297epn@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >> >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> ... > >> >> >> That has absolutely nothing to do with the _fact_ that Jews, Christian, > >> >> >> Moslems and Bahai all agree that they worship the same God, the God of > >> >> >> Abraham. I don't know what god you worship. If you worship the God of > >> >> >> Abraham, you worship the same God that Moslems worship. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Deal with reality sometime. I'm sick of the lies that you tell because > >> >> >> you indulge in so much wishful thinking and intentional ignorance. > >> >> > > >> >> >If you choose to believe it--that is up to you. It's my opinion that Baal > >> >> >and Allah are false Gods. > >> >> > >> >> Your opinion is wrong. I don't care how many opinions you have that are > >> >> derived from your intentional ignorance. Because you choose to be > >> >> ignorant and dishonest, you deserve to be chastised. > >> >> > >> >> Once again, the fact is that Allah is the Arabic word for God. You > >> >> basically said in your proud ignorance, that Christian Arabs worship > >> >> false gods because they call God Allah. You are a fool and a bigot. > >> >> > >> >> >I have not conducted any research related to > >> >> >Bahai. This sentence is from the Quran: > >> >> > > >> >> >"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and sieze them, > >> >> >beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war)." > >> >> >(Surah 9:5) > >> >> > > >> >> >From Surah 5:33 > >> >> >"....cutting off of hands and feet..." > >> >> > > >> >> The doctrines of Islam may be considered heretical by Christians, but > >> >> they are not Pagan. Learn the difference and stop worshipping your own > >> >> ignorance. > >> > > >> >The president of Iran made this statement: > >> >"Israel must be wiped off from the map of the world." > >> > > >> So what? That has nothing to do with whether he worships the same God > >> you do. > > > >I believe that Allah is a false God. If you believe they are the same > >God--that is up to you. > > > Once again, you refuse to address the point. Allah is the Arabic name > for God. It is the name that Arabic Christians use for God. Your > opinion, once again, is based on ignorance and lies. Yours is a > worthless opinion, one a Christian would be ashamed to hold. I hope those Arabic Christians realize that the true God is very different than a false God. If they have a copy of Bible, they already know that the true God is very different than the God that is mentioned in the Quran. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:27:13 -0700, Jason wrote: > Several people in this newsgroup informed me that time and physics did not > exist prior to the Big Bang--remember my star ship question? Again I ask you - what, if any, relationship is there between time and entropy? -- An accommodating vice is better than an obstinate virtue. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 00:06:04 -0700, Jason wrote: >> There is a difference between simply reading them and in understanding and >> dealing with them - by refuting them, accepting they refute you core >> arguments and so forth. >> >> Now, which will you do - deal with them? Or just read them? > > read them and I may comment. > I won't comment if I believe you answered the questions correctly. So, you ask questions, get answers which are you your own estimation correct - yet won't man up enough to deal with them. Yeah, it's about what we expect from you. -- Sorry, not my table. - Fredric Rice Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <lh3673du7ih3djcq80783nt85hl8i6olef@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:20:45 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071520450001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <4672fa8c$0$20560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Christopher > >Morris" <Draccus@roadrunner.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-1506071227220001@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article <NDyci.165$W9.27@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > Someone was trying to convince me that Allah and Jehovah were the same > >> > God. My point was that the Bible clearly states that Israel is the > >> > homeland for Jews. The Muslims believe that Israel should be under the > >> > control of Muslims. If they had the same God, they would only have one > >> > holy book. In this case, they have the Koran and we have the Old Testament > >> > and the New Testament. > >> > jason > >> > The > >> > > >> > >> Jason has been pointed out to you Allah is the Arabic word for God nothing > >> more nothing less. The Jews do not say the name of God at all, and > >> Christians just use the generic term God. Both the Christian and the Muslim > >> are offshoots of Judaism so you both have Jewish roots and all three groups > >> are in fact worshipping the same God. Furthermore you are also all > >> worshiping the same Ultimate God of all other Faiths as well as St. > >> Augustine said in "The City of God" the God we worship " is the God whom > >> Porphyry, the most learned of philosophers, although the fiercest of enemy > >> of the Christian, acknowledges to be a Great God..." Furthermore, the Pagan > >> Maximus of Tyre wrote: "In the midst of such contention and strife, and > >> disagreement you would see in all the earth one harmonious law and principle > >> that there is one God, king and father of all, and many gods, sons of God, > >> fellow rulers with God. The Greek says this and the barbarian says it, the > >> mainlander and the seafarer, the wise and the unwise." > > > >We have a different point of view related to this subject. I have read > >some of quotations from the Quran and found out that there are MAJOR > >differences between the Koran and the Bible. Here is just one example: > > > >From the Quran: > >Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, > >beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war). > >Surah 9:5 > > > >"...cutting off of hands and feet...." Surah 5:33 > > > >Needless to say, you will not find words like that in the New Testament. > > > >Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus never taught his > >followers to cut off the hands and feet of pagans or to slay pagans. > >Jason > > It is clear that you worship your interpretation of the Bible instead of > worshipping the God of Abraham. Since that is the case, I agree that > Moslems do not worship what you worship. I worship the God mentioned in the Holy Bible. I don't worship the God that is mentioned in the Quran. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <mWEci.1194$s9.431@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-1506071641330001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <tvDci.289$P8.76@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-1506071520450001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article <4672fa8c$0$20560$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Christopher > >> > Morris" <Draccus@roadrunner.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> >> news:Jason-1506071227220001@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> > In article <NDyci.165$W9.27@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> >> > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Someone was trying to convince me that Allah and Jehovah were the > >> >> > same > >> >> > God. My point was that the Bible clearly states that Israel is the > >> >> > homeland for Jews. The Muslims believe that Israel should be under > >> >> > the > >> >> > control of Muslims. If they had the same God, they would only have > >> >> > one > >> >> > holy book. In this case, they have the Koran and we have the Old > >> >> > Testament > >> >> > and the New Testament. > >> >> > jason > >> >> > The > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Jason has been pointed out to you Allah is the Arabic word for God > >> >> nothing > >> >> more nothing less. The Jews do not say the name of God at all, and > >> >> Christians just use the generic term God. Both the Christian and the > >> >> Muslim > >> >> are offshoots of Judaism so you both have Jewish roots and all three > >> >> groups > >> >> are in fact worshipping the same God. Furthermore you are also all > >> >> worshiping the same Ultimate God of all other Faiths as well as St. > >> >> Augustine said in "The City of God" the God we worship " is the God > >> >> whom > >> >> Porphyry, the most learned of philosophers, although the fiercest of > >> >> enemy > >> >> of the Christian, acknowledges to be a Great God..." Furthermore, the > >> >> Pagan > >> >> Maximus of Tyre wrote: "In the midst of such contention and strife, > >> >> and > >> >> disagreement you would see in all the earth one harmonious law and > >> >> principle > >> >> that there is one God, king and father of all, and many gods, sons of > >> >> God, > >> >> fellow rulers with God. The Greek says this and the barbarian says it, > >> >> the > >> >> mainlander and the seafarer, the wise and the unwise." > >> > > >> > We have a different point of view related to this subject. I have read > >> > some of quotations from the Quran and found out that there are MAJOR > >> > differences between the Koran and the Bible. Here is just one example: > >> > > >> > From the Quran: > >> > Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, > >> > beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war). > >> > Surah 9:5 > >> > > >> > "...cutting off of hands and feet...." Surah 5:33 > >> > > >> > Needless to say, you will not find words like that in the New > >> > Testament. > >> > > >> > Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus never taught his > >> > followers to cut off the hands and feet of pagans or to slay pagans. > >> > Jason > >> > >> Ever read the Old Testament. That is part of your bible, isn't it? > > > > Yes > > Well then,you should know that it is replete with incidents just like the > ones you are ascribing to the Muslims! I have read the Old Testament. It discusses various covenants. However, Christions are part of a different covenant called the "New Covenant". I heard one preacher refer to the New Testament as the Handbook for the New Covenant. I have learned a lot from the Old Testament. We do not need to sacrafice animals or do any of the other things related to older covenants. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <jn4673pa84kld2sss540231p6e13j9bndt@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:59:20 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071459200001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <5dg7koF34ssfaU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > ><witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in > >> > >> snip > >> > > >> > In the case of Cheryl Prewitt, the main witness would be Cheryl Prewitt. I > >> > believed the testimony of Cheryl Prewitt. > >> > >> Why? > > > >After hearing her entire testimony, I found no reason to not believe her. > >She mentioned how the children in her school teased her because of her > >limp. One poster told me that she probably faked the limp so that she > >could later claim that she was healed. That post made be laugh. Over the > >years, I have heard lots of testimonies from people that were healed by > >God. I recently heard a story about a man that was healed of brain cancer. > >I did not need to see the brain scans to believe the story. > >Jason > > > So you believe someone who is telling you a nearly unbelievable story > without any actual evidence just because she is pretty and tells you > that she is a Christian. > > You make Christians look bad. That's funny. I have heard lots of testimonies over the years related to people that were healed by God. Whether or not the women are pretty has nothing to do with it. We pray for the healing of people that request it. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <rg4673t02p5k6qdd1qh2i4jm4b20gr8sc2@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:03:10 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071503110001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > ... > > >I doubt that is true. Who makes them sign the pledge? > > Ask the ICR, CRS and AIG. > > The ICR tells us that they won't let something as silly as facts get in > the way of their teaching of doctrine: <http://icr.org/home/faq/> and > scroll down a bit. Thanks--I would like to read that pledge. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <844673l3qbgm6b42m59ps8l29e1ah3ogip@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:46:45 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071146450001@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <fHyci.169$W9.109@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > ><mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-1406072012490001@66-52-22-82.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > ... > >> > I am convinced that people only believe things that "fit" their belief > >> > system. That is the reason I believed Cheryl Prewitt and William A. Kent. > >> > It also explains the reason that atheists did not believe that God healed > >> > Cheryl Prewitt and William A. Kent. It also explains why the rich man's > >> > brothers (mentioned in Luke 16:19-21) would not have listened to the rich > >> > man--even if he had returned from the dead. Do you agree or disagree? > >> > >> Quit attempting to open secondary discussions, Jason, it is dishonest. > >> Everyone examines anything in light of their worldview. Some of us are able > >> to see the truth even though we might be looking at something that is > >> diametrically opposed to our worldview. Others can't see the splinter for > >> the log. > > > >The advocates of creation science are able to do the same thing. > > > To do what? You didn't have a meaningful antecedent. > > I know that the advocates of creation science refuse to learn science or > admit the facts that they know about, so you cannot possibly be saying > that they are willing to look at the scientific evidence. I subscribe to the ICR newsletter. They have an article written by someone that has a Ph.D. degree in every issue. I believe the older articles are on the website. For example, if you typed a term into their search engine, the result would probably be an article that was once part of a newsletter. Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 In article <1v3673dt5lsaeeelj2sevnbsmorev24hhu@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:40:34 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-1506071540340001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <1wCci.267$P8.79@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > ><mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-1506071200360001@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > ... > >> > We don't know. We are hoping that it will be soon. > >> > >> Well read the damn verses Jason, they say it will be soon. Just for your > >> information, two thousand years isn't 'soon'. Before you go into a 'we don't > >> know how soon it is in god's time' defense, read the verses and tell me when > >> you think Jesus said he would come. Just one more of literally thousands of > >> reasons to conclude that your god doesn't exist. > > > >Some of the prophecies related to the last days did not come true until > >the past 10 to 20 years. Here is one of them: > >2 Tim 4:3-5 > > > >For the time will come when [Christians] will not endure sound doctrine; > >but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers [and > >preachers]. Those [preachers] will teach them not what the truth is but > >instead what they want to hear > > > >My comment: That prophecy has come true in my life time. There is one > >church in California called Unity Fellowship. The preachers are more like > >psychologists than real preachers. There is a television show that is > >broadcast on Sunday morning called the "Hour of Power". The preacher never > >discusses Bible doctrines. He teaches messages related to psychology and > >sociology. I have never heard him preach messages from the Bible. > >Jason > > Jason, Christians have been claiming that they were in the last days > ever since Christianity began. Your ignorance of history betrays you and > gives you the foolish idea that only recently have these 'signs' been > fulfilled. Once again I have to wonder if you are really a Christian. My father (in the 1950's) believed that he was living in the last days. According to the Bible, the deciples of Jesus hoped Jesus would return during their life times. I have never claimed to be a Bible scholar. I learn new things every time I listen to another sermon. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:55:12 -0700, Jason wrote: > In article <000n631hvib3v2j76s842tj4oidvr28o8f@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:12:28 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-0906072012290001@66-52-22-86.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <1181434413.076366.288560@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > >> >> On Jun 10, 3:19 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > In article <1181371287.388122.242...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Martin >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > > On Jun 9, 7:02 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > > > In article <Kdjai.670$s9....@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" >> >> > >> >> > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > > > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message >> >> > > > >news:Jason-0706072112310001@66-52-22-14.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> >> > > > > > In article <sueh63h0slh8d0oudf83vl7vb8d6tq1...@4ax.com>, > Free Lunch >> >> > > > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:12:54 -0700, in alt.atheism >> >> > > > > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> > > > > >> <Jason-0706072012540...@66-52-22-14.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> > > > > >> >In article >> >> > > > > >> >> >><DipthotDipthot-63ED4F.18324107062...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>, >> >> > > > > >> >655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> In article >> >> > > > > >> >> <Jason-0706071647400...@66-52-22-47.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, >> >> > > > > >> >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > I requested that you google "miracle healings" and if >> >you had done >> >> > > > > >> >> > that, >> >> > > > > >> >> > you would know that God is healing people today in much the >> >> > same way >> >> > > > > >> >> > that >> >> > > > > >> >> > God healed people while Jesus was on this earth. >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> You are a sucker for a smooth-talkin' salesman, aren't >> >you? If you >> >> > > > > >> >> had >> >> > > > > >> >> been raised in a Hindu community, what do you think you'd >> >believe >> >> > > > > >> >> about >> >> > > > > >> >> who/what was responsible for "miracle healings"? >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> >God can heal anyone regardless of their religions. >> >> > >> >> > > > > >> There is no evidence that God healed anyone, no matter > what their >> >> > > > > >> religion. >> >> > >> >> > > > > > I disagree. I know people that have been healed. I know >> >someone that had >> >> > > > > > one leg that was about 3 inches shorter than other other > leg. God >> >> > healed >> >> > > > > > her and now both of her legs are the same size. That is evidence >> >> > to me but >> >> > > > > > I know that you would not consider it as evidence--even if you >> >seen her >> >> > > > > > X-rays and medical records. >> >> > > > > > Jason >> >> > >> >> > > > > How is it evidence that god did it? >> >> > >> >> > > > I know a lady that had one leg that was longer than the other leg. >> >She was >> >> > > > a teenage girl and her parents were too poor to buy her special >> >shoes. The >> >> > > > children in her school teased her on a daily basis. She begged God >> >to heal >> >> > > > her. >> >> > >> >> > > God doesn't exist. >> >> >> >> > What caused that leg to get longer if God did not heal her?- Hide >> >quoted text - >> >> >> >> Your question is out of date. A simple web search has proven that >> >> this never happened. You've swallowed other people's lies, Jason. As >> >> a liar yourself, you'd think you'd be able to tell when others are >> >> lying. >> >> >> >> Martin >> > >> >Post the evidence. I heard her testimony at my church. >> > >> You have offered no evidence. Learn what evidence is before you make >> your claims. > > Since testimony is considered as evidence in court <import> The chronicles of legal history are filled with tragic cases of mistaken identity. The tale of Berson and Morales echoes that of hundreds of thousands of others. In the 1970s, Lawrence Berson was accused of several rapes and George Morales was accused of robbery. Both men were picked out of police lineups by victims of the respective crimes and both men were innocent. Berson was cleared when another man, Richard Carbone, was arrested and implicated in the rapes. Carbone was convicted on the rape charges and later confessed to the robbery, clearing Morales. </import> There's an example of testimony - someone saying "Is too!". They were even in a position to look at the person they were fingering, yet still got it wrong. Your case doesn't even have someone to look at; just sheer assertion. <import> However, witnesses generally overestimate time and have great difficulty gauging the duration of an event. For example, Professor Buckhout, a cognitive psychologist, staged an assault during one of his classes. The assault actually lasted 34 seconds, but the average estimate of time by 141 witnesses to the event was overestimated by a factor of almost two and one half to one (2.5:1). </import> There's another example. 141 people, yet the average response was more than twice the actual fact of the matter - and, being average, it means that at least some answers said the event took longer still. Testimony... and completely worthless. <import> Violence also affects a witness' acquisition of information. In 1978, an experiment was conducted in which subjects viewed violent and non-violent tapes of an event. The subjects who viewed the violent version of the event had more difficulty perceiving and recalling the event than those subjects who had seen the non-violent version. </import> Again, testimony. Same event, yet an entire group had difficulty remembering the details. <import> As early as 1909, it was noted that expectation has a profound effect upon perception: "observation is peculiarly influenced by expectation, ... we tend to see and hear what we expect to see and hear." Modern science can now account for the relationship between expectation and perception. As noted earlier, the human mind can only process a fragment of the physical stimuli digested by the senses. The mind compensates by integrating the stimuli with concepts based upon a fund of general knowledge acquired over time or, put more simply, with expectation. In this manner, individuals subconsciously reconstruct events from what they assume must have occurred. </import> "We see what we expect to see". In fact, humans are exceptionally good pattern-matchers, but they are lousy discriminators. We can spot a familiar person blocks off just by the way they walk, yet we also have a tendency to see patterns where there really aren't any - faces on Mars or on grilled cheese sandwiches, for example. <import> In 1976, Dr. Elizabeth Loftus conducted an experiment to demonstrate how post-event information in the form of questioning can affect memory. In this experiment, subjects viewed a videotaped auto accident and were questioned about what they observed. The question about how fast the cars were going when they smashed into each other elicited significantly higher estimates of speed than those questions posed with words such as "collided," "bumped," "hit" and "contacted" instead of "smashed." </import> So even the way a question is asked can significantly impact upon the result obtained. <import> A week later the subjects were again questioned. They were asked "did you see any broken glass?" The videotaped accident in fact did not involve broken glass, but those subjects who had been questioned earlier with the verb "smashed" were more likely to assert that they had seen broken glass in the video tape. A memory was formed when the subjects viewed the tape, but it was later augmented and altered by the suggestive questions of the interviewers. The implications of this study on police questioning techniques and general investigative procedures is obvious. </import> And it turns out that being asked the question a particular way can actually alter recollection of facts. <import> Though the American judicial system has been slow to accept the lessons of modern psychology, there does appear to be a growing group of judges willing to accept the logic of the premise of the unreliability of event witnesses and permit expert testimony on that topic. </import> So even the courts are rejecting event witness testimony - because it's such a completely unreliable thing. So let's see. Modern psychology has shown that testimony is a very unreliable thing at the best of times, and that's even true when they're doing something as straightforward as picking someone out of a lineup. et you want us to accept, on its face value alone, the testimony of someone who doesn't even claim to have seen the actors in the event, who simply asserts, as "is too", that the actors were involved, as being somehow demonstrative of the notion the actors actually exist. I'm sure all of this is going to go over your head, and I'm equally sure that the bits that don't, you'll simply filter out. SO I'll make it simple for you: we no more take her word when she says "God dunnit" than we take yours or anyone else's; what is required is evidence. Pointing to someone else saying the same thing doesn't validate your claim, it simply means someone else makes the same claim - and so far, neither has produced a shred of evidence that the claim is valid. Imports from: http://www.law.wayne.edu/Faculty/Fac_web/moran/Excerpt%20from%20Scientific%20Evidence%20in%20Civil%20and%20Criminal%20Cases.htm -- Ah, yes. The Bible: the Christian's Mein Kampf. - David Rice Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:57:36 -0700, Jason wrote: > Is a testimony evidence? No, it's testimony. Nor does your exemplar even qualify; even the people involved don't claim to have seen God, or seen how the healings were performed; they only assert "God dunnit" with no foundation whatsoever. Anyone can make claims. Finding someone else making the same claim doesn't back it up; it just means there are two people failing to provide evidence of their claims. By your logic, if Free Lunch claimed he was the president of the United States and I said the same thing, this is "evidence" that he is, in fact, the president. Obviously this is not true, so there's something wrong with your logic. Try again. -- I'd take Aphrodite over Jesus any day. - David Rice Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:10:41 -0700, Jason wrote: > You misunderstood. The evidence (testimony) is present but the problem is > that atheists reject (or do not believe) the evidence since it does not > "fit' their belief system. We reject it because it is bunk. By your standards, if Free Lunch claims he is the president of the United States and I also say he is, then - by your logic - he must be; I've given evidence that he is. Try again. -- Well, paint me red and call me a commie, too! -- Robert Curry Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:49:50 -0700, Jason wrote: > Would you at least acknowlege that testimony is evidence? And based on your logic, if Free Lunch says he's the president of the United States and I also say he is, then I have provided evidence of his claim - he is the president. Not gonna wash, Jason. Try again. -- I would give all I owned to the Church. I know Jesus Christ directs the affairs of the Church and would without question give it all. - Ric Remington (Mormon) Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:13:52 -0700, Jason wrote: > If not, how do you explain why her legs are now the same size? We don't, as you haven't established they were ever different in the first place. -- "More like a pot calling the MIRROR black...." - Sean M. Quote
Guest John Baker Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:34:39 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <coe5735hper0t715cgkusb7l7i8i7lfb4f@4ax.com>, John Baker ><nunya@bizniz.net> wrote: > >> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:01:05 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >In article <7f50735gqg9n7ifa3ib8ucmhc2t0jd959k@4ax.com>, John Baker >> ><nunya@bizniz.net> wrote: >> > >> >> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:48:04 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >On 12 Jun., 19:42, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> In article <1181643770.817395.36...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> >> > On 11 Jun., 21:54, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > In article <0de0k4-blk....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason >> >> >snip >> >> > >> >> >> > A person that has been healed is evidence that he was healed. It is >> >> >> > not evidence of a god. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes, that is true. If I provided physical evidence which indicated that >> >> >> her leg bone grew 2 inches--how would you explain how it happened?- >> >> > >> >> >I would not be able to explain it, and that is not evidence that god >> >> >did it. >> >> >> >> >> >> But then, Jason isn't about to provide any evidence either..... >> > >> >Why bother--several have told me that if I provided physical evidence to >> >prove that her leg bone grew two inches, they would still not believe that >> >God healed her leg. >> >> >> One step at a time, Jason. First, prove that the event in question >> actually happened. A few undoctored before-and-after photos >> accompanied by the sworn testimony of at least two qualified medical >> professionals that the event did happen as described and is in fact >> medically unexplainable will do for that. >> >> Once that's done to everyone's satisfaction, then we'll discuss >> whether or not it's convincing evidence for the existence of a god. >> >> By the way, Jason ... second-hand "testimony" cribbed from some >> Christian web site is not evidence. > > >We discussed this in another post. Not really. We outline what would constitute acceptable evidence. You make excuses why you won't (or rather, can't) produce any. That isn't a discussion. >My conclusion was that since I don't >have a video tape showing God coming down from heaven and healing her >foot--it would be a waste of time to prove to you that her leg bone was >healed. I also discussed the story mentioned in Luke 16:19-31. It was the >story of a rich man that died and ended up in the place of torment. He >requested permission to return to the earth and warn his brothers about >the place of torment so they would not have to go there when he they >died. Abraham told the rich man: "If your brothers did not listen to Moses >and the prophets, nither will they be persuaded by someone that rose from >the dead." My conclusion was that if atheists would not listen to man that >returned from the dead, Of course, you realize that citing a Bible story as "evidence" won't fly here... >it's only logical they would not listen to Cheryl >Prewitt, William Kent or myself. Of course I'm not going to believe Prewitt's story without some solid proof. And you shouldn't either. Being a good Christian does not require that you also be a gullible fool. Just because someone professes to be a Christian doesn't mean they're incapable of telling a lie. We need only look at the whoppers told by the ICR, Discovery Institute and AIG, among others, for proof of that. >Jason > Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:32:06 -0700, Jason wrote: > I posted a report related to her testimony--that is all of the evidence > that I have. So you have no evidence - yet you believe anyways. Meanwhile, you also have "testimony" of many of us - plus many researchers - that evolution is real, but you reject that, demanding absolute proof of every step. Why isn't the testimony good enough? You buy into her story based on nothing but her say-so... why do you suddenly demand a different and more rigorous standard when it comes to evolution? Oh, right, because even you aren't deluded enough to think that just because someone says so is enough to establish something as real... yet you expect us to do just that with your "healing" example. Why, Jason, do you think we are all so stupid we would accept a standard of justification which you, yourself, refuse to use? -- "Those who believe require no evidence." -- Len Young ("Julie") Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:39:23 -0700, Jason wrote: > I am no longer shocked when atheists do not believe the testimonies of > people that have been healed by God. Now if you'd learn why they don't, you'd be on to something. I'll give you a hint... Pons and Fleischmann. Blondlot. I'm guessing you don't know any of those names. The first two were the ones who reported a breakthrough in cold fusion. They said - offered testimony - that they'd done it. Yet nobody managed to duplicate their work, including them. It was, in short, complete and utter hogwash. The other guy - Blondlot - claimed to have discovered a new ray, like X-rays, but different. Nobody could duplicate his work, either. Finally, they sat him down and put him to the test: we'll set up things which are (according to him) N-ray emitters, and things which aren't, but do it so you can't see the materials. You tell us which boxes contain N-ray emitting materials, which don't. He couldn't. Debunked. Both of these cases involved someone offering testimony of something, asserting that yes, they had experienced an event, discovered a phenomenon, what have you. The truth is, when push came to shove, it was all shown to be crap. The list goes on. Uri Geller would, I'm sure, happily give testimony that he bends spoons with his mind - yet he's been soundly debunked. And on and on and on and on and on. We don't accept testimony because testimony is a lousy standard of evidence, one which should be relied on only in the most carefully limited senses and with strict analysis of the results. As noted elsewhere, even you don't accept claims based on testimony, yet for some reason you expect us to buy outlandish claims based on nothing more than someone's say-so, when we know such say-so is a wholly unreliable foundation for making any conclusions. Please stop treating us like we're idiot children, Jason, we're not. We're smart enough to see the problems in your offerings, and we're even smart enough to see that you yourself do not accept the standard you're asking us to. So kindly stop it. -- Remember that a kick in the butt may equal a step forward. Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:53:36 -0700, Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: - Refer: <atg5739lur6fsekm6c580tubbl9odh846l@4ax.com> >Jason@nospam.com (Jason) said: > >>> By that standard, the relevant judge of what Bill did is Hillary. >> >>He lied to her also. He did not admit the truth until Monica produced the >>spotted dress. > >We do not know whether he lied to Hillary. Don't you know that Jason studied Omniscience 101 at Liberty "University"? -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 05:21:55 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: - Refer: <1181910115.960511.6200@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> >On 14 Jun., 21:20, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> In article <f4rbvv$46...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >snip > >> > > The people (like Cheryl Prewitt) that are healed by God are evidence that >> > > there is a God. Even when Jesus was on this earth, he did not heal >> > > everyone that needed to be healed. >> >> > Let's try to answer the question asked this time: >> >> > "Are all the people that aren't healed evidence that there is no god?" >> >> no- > >Now that is interesting. I wonder if the above response means that >Jason is candidly dishonest or terminally stupid. Any opinions? Both. In spades. -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 05:33:59 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: - Refer: <1181910839.488132.244450@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> >On 15 Jun., 00:37, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote: >> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:34:56 -0700, gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> - Refer: <1181831696.476643.218...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> >On 14 Jun., 16:25, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in >> >> >> snip >> >> >> > No--not really. I now avoid going to the beach. It was easier in the old >> >> > days when women wore 1 piece bathing suits. Have you been to a beach or >> >> > swimming pool in recent years? >> >> >> Are you turned off by women's bodies? >> >> -- >> >> Robyn >> >> Resident Witchypoo >> >> BAAWA Knight! >> >> #1557 >> >> >I wonder how the poor schmuck would act on our beaches. Nudity is not >> >the rule, but it is very common. Of course it is very dangerous. One >> >hears that men have gotten er you know one of those really nasty >> >things. >> >> What? White Pointers? > > >Huh? Australian beaches. White pointers = huge sharks (as seen in Jaws) White pointers = first time male nudist bathers untanned penises. (It's got a bit sad when I have to explain my jokes!) -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:02:21 GMT, Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: - Refer: <5fv57314fnidrhvm30gm4rp9seh2i4k2v3@4ax.com> >"Christopher Morris" <Draccus@roadrunner.com> said: > > >>Jason has been pointed out to you Allah is the Arabic word for God nothing >>more nothing less. The Jews do not say the name of God at all, and >>Christians just use the generic term God. Both the Christian and the Muslim >>are offshoots of Judaism so you both have Jewish roots and all three groups >>are in fact worshipping the same God. Furthermore you are also all >>worshiping the same Ultimate God of all other Faiths as well as St. >>Augustine said in "The City of God" the God we worship " is the God whom >>Porphyry, the most learned of philosophers, although the fiercest of enemy >>of the Christian, acknowledges to be a Great God..." Furthermore, the Pagan >>Maximus of Tyre wrote: "In the midst of such contention and strife, and >>disagreement you would see in all the earth one harmonious law and principle >>that there is one God, king and father of all, and many gods, sons of God, >>fellow rulers with God. The Greek says this and the barbarian says it, the >>mainlander and the seafarer, the wise and the unwise." >> >In order for different people to worship the same god, that god has to >exist. Without this, all that can be said is that their depictions of >the god are general enough to coincide. Please provide reasons to >believe a god exists. Brain Damage? -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:06:28 -0400, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: - Refer: <5dfo6mF344a4pU1@mid.individual.net> > >"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in > >snip > >> Martin, >> Not until Jesus comes back to establish his kingdom on the earth. > >You really think that's going to happen? Oh my. It is truly sad that a supposed adult can actually retain these utterly infantile concepts. Very sad. -- Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:13:40 -0700, Jason wrote: > You failed to tell me whether or not such an experiment has been done. When's the last time you heard of anyone creating a supernova as part of an experiment? Never? Ah, so obviously we cannot claim that those enormous explosions of dying stars are in fact supernovae, as we've not created one in an experiment. -- Nothing is impossible for anyone impervious to reason. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:45:47 -0700, Jason wrote: > The title of the article was > WAS DARWIN WRONG? > the answer was: > No--the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. > > I read the article and my conclusion was: > the evidence for natural selection is overwhelming but the > evidence for abiogenesis and common descent is underwhelming. Please show where, in Darwin's works, he details his theory of abiogensis. He must have, otherwise to mention it in the context of an article titled "Was Darwin Wrong" would be bringing up a subject completely irrelevant to the article - in short, it would be dishonesty. So, please, show us Darwin's theory of abiogensis. You must have one, unless you're just a scummy little lying bag of putrescence, or you wouldn't have mentioned abiogenesis in this context. -- yet the Resus monkey can hold a conversation in English once his vocal cords are alterd - Dan Lafferty Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 [snips] On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:57:19 -0700, Jason wrote: > These are two other ways that it could have happened: > > 1. Intelligent Design: God created some plants; We'd need evidence God exists before we can take such a notion seriously. Funny, you never seem to provide any. > > 2. Ancient astronauts We'd need evidence ancient astronauts exists before we can take such a notion seriously. Funny, you never seem to provide any. > You already know which of the three options are the one that I would > choose. The one with absolutely no justification whatsoever for accepting it. Yes, we know; basic concepts of honest analysis are not your forte. -- "Creation 'science:' the moron's oxymoron." --- Marty Leipzig Quote
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