Guest Jason Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 In article <1182140181.269817.286320@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jun 18, 12:48 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <f54t8v$l7p$0...@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris > > > > > > > > > > > > <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote: > > > Jason wrote: > > > > In article <1182072308.567299.14...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 17, 3:02 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >>> In article <8KadnTbDRc_Jd-7bnZ2dnUVZ_jidn...@sti.net>, "David V." > > > > > >>> <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >>>> Kelsey Bjarnason wrote: > > > >>>>> What defines a "major" mutation? Of the 100-odd mutations > > > >>>>> each of us is walking around with, which are "major" ones, > > > >>>>> which are "minor"? How is "major" defined? > > > >>>> That's part of the problem with anti-evolutionists; when they use > > > >>>> the word "mutation" they always think of an extra leg, two heads, > > > >>>> or a catfish and a turtle mating to create a swamp monster. > > > >>> In order for lower life forms (living cells) to evolve into higher life > > > >>> forms (mammals)--major mutations would have been required. > > > >> Apparently not. > > > > > I disagree. I mentioned in another post the evolution of Hyracotherium (a > > > > vaguely horselike cerature) to Equus (the modern genus of horse). I left > > > > out 4 steps. Lots of major mutations would have had to happen. > > > > > Name one. > > > > Size. > > No mutation would be required as every species has varieties in > different sizes. (You mentioned dogs which are all one species, for > example.) Selective pressures would have favoured larger animals, > perhaps because they were faster and could better escape predators. > > Martin Martin, Thanks Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 In article <46760992$0$1189$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-1706071822190001@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <%4idi.1073$P8.505@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-1706071232190001@66-52-22-4.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article > >> > <46753d99$0$1182$61c65585@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > >> > "Jeckyl" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Martin" <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> >> news:1182071263.602369.18620@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > >> >> > On Jun 16, 2:13 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> I once talked to a > >> >> >> biology professor that was an advocate of creation science. He knew > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> much about evolution as any of the other biology professors that > >> >> >> worked > >> >> >> at > >> >> >> that college. > >> >> > > >> >> > Obviously not. > >> >> > >> >> It is possible to believe in everything about evolution itself, and > >> >> still > >> >> believe there was some external creating entity that either created > >> >> the > >> >> universe initially and/or caused life to first emerge. Evolution > >> >> really > >> >> only kicks in once there is life and a process in place for selection > >> >> and > >> >> mutation to take place. > >> >> > >> >> So its not incompatible .. but not necessarily reasonable .. to > >> >> believe > >> >> in > >> >> some sort of creator that did his job and then let nature (his > >> >> creation) > >> >> take its course (see deism). > >> > > >> > I understand your point. That is the reason college biology teachers > >> > that > >> > are advocates of creation science can teach their students about > >> > evolution > >> > as well as college biology professors that are NOT advocates of > >> > creation > >> > science. > >> > Jason > >> > >> Jason, what is your understanding of a creation scientist? What views do > >> the > >> people hold who call themselves creation scientists? > > > > It's my guess that they perform their jobs as well as scientists that are > > advocates of evolution. Most of the advocates of creation science are also > > advocates of Natural Selection. Many of them know as much about evolution > > as the advocates of evolution. > > > > They probably hold this view: God created mankind; some plants and some > > animals. After the creation process was finished, natural selection kicked > > in. > > > > Many scientists have jobs that are not related to issues related to > > abiogenesis. For example, David F. Coppedge works in the Cassini program > > at the Jet Propolsion Laboratory. He is an advocate of creation science. I > > doubt if the scientists that work at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory ever > > conduct any experiments related to abiogenesis. > > > > So .. why did god wait for an eternity (an infinite amount of time) before > deciding to create the universe. What was god doing all that time .. where > was he doing it . .what will he do for the eternity after the universe > ceases to exist? Such questions are difficult for me to answer. I can only provide a guess. There was a war in heaven between the angels. God won the battle and the angel that started the war (and the angels that fought on his side) were cast down to the earth. The angel was re-named Satan and his followers were re-named demons. God may have created another planet and sun (similar to our planet and our sun). He may also have created people to live on that planet; some plants and some animals. Of course, I am only guessing. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 In article <f55286$t78$02$2@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris <tokay.gris.beau@gmx.net> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <qgvbk4-7cg.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> [snips] > >> > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:34:42 -0700, Jason wrote: > >> > >>> I don't want to be argumentative re: to the Big Bang. > >> Yes, you do; you demonstrate it regularly. > >> > >>> However, I > >>> continue to believe that it is speculation that the big bang was the > >>> beginning of time. Do you believe that it is speculation or a fact? > >> I think you need to ponder what the very concept of "time" actually means, > >> and how it is defined. You seem to think it is some sort of magic thing > >> which exists independent of everything around us. > >> > >> What's even stranger is, you seem to think that time is some sort of > >> absolute - that regardless of any other factors, it marches steadily on > >> anyhow, unaffected by space, motion and the like. Yet we know this is > >> simply not true, that time is, in fact, variable - and is, in fact, > >> impacted by motion. > >> > >>> That leads to another question: > >>> Is a mathematical model evidence or speculation? > >> Mathematics can describe; it cannot prescribe. Or, put another way, > >> someone creating a mathematical model of something can show us that it is > >> valid mathematically without it ever having any basis in describing the > >> real world. > >> > >> As an example of this, there's an odd little bit of math I once read > >> about that says if you cut up an orange just right, then re-assemble the > >> parts, the results could be larger than the sun - yet contain no holes. > >> Perhaps, in mathematics, this would be true, but it is based on the > >> concept of infinite divisibility and infinitely small spaces - and that > >> is something which simply does not apply to the real world. > >> > >> Such a model needs to actually be compared to the real world to see if it > >> is, in fact, a correct modeling of the world, or simply a nice little > >> mathematical puzzle. > > > > Let's say that a mathematician develops a mathematical model. Several > > years later, another mathematician develops a new mathematical model that > > disproves the first mathematical model. Is that possible? > > No. You can't disprove a mathematical model. It is just that: A > mathematical model. It doesn't need to have anything to do with the real > world. > > If your answer > > is yes, does not mean that mathematical model should never become a > > theory? > > No. You mixed up "mathematical model" and "scientific theory". Again. > > Tokay Can a mathematical model become a theory? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 In article <f550vg$l7p$02$4@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris <tokay.gris.beau@gmx.net> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1182125258.409052.162860@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jun 18, 2:08 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>> In article > >>> <46753e27$0$1181$61c65...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > >>> > >>> "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > >>>> On Jun 16, 9:26 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>> I hope those Arabic Christians realize that the true God is very > > different > >>>>> than a false God. > >>>> Just as you believe your god to be true and others false, everyone else > >>>> believes their gods true and your god false. If you go by majority > >>>> decision, EVERY god must be false > >>> Or--one of the Gods may be the true God. > >> You better hope it's not Allah then. > >> > >> Martin > > > > It's not. > > > > > > How do you know? > > I hate to say this AGAIN! > > Any evidence? Except your book, of course? > > Tokay My belief system Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:04:09 -0700, Jim07D7 <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote: - Refer: <tr7c73lf0md9n59g9ofo4abi29uti0gbcg@4ax.com> : >IMO you are being intellectually dishonest by not replying to the >issues raised by Martin, and instead raising, as new, an argument >from incredulity and the old 747 argument. So, for you, plonk. Sorry, >but you have earned it. You took your time, sir! -- Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 17 Jun., 16:59, John Baker <n...@bizniz.net> wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:54:35 -0000, George Chen > > > > > > <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >On Jun 17, 3:12 am, "Ralph" <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > >>news:Jason-1506071852300001@66-52-22-96.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > >> > In article <844673l3qbgm6b42m59ps8l29e1ah3o...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >> > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >> >> On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:46:45 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > >> >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> >> <Jason-1506071146450...@66-52-22-34.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >> >In article <fHyci.169$W9....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> >> ><mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> >> >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> >> >>news:Jason-1406072012490001@66-52-22-82.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> ... > >> >> >> > I am convinced that people only believe things that "fit" their > >> >> >> > belief > >> >> >> > system. That is the reason I believed Cheryl Prewitt and William A. > >> >> >> > Kent. > >> >> >> > It also explains the reason that atheists did not believe that God > >> >> >> > healed > >> >> >> > Cheryl Prewitt and William A. Kent. It also explains why the rich > >> >> >> > man's > >> >> >> > brothers (mentioned in Luke 16:19-21) would not have listened to the > >> >> >> > rich > >> >> >> > man--even if he had returned from the dead. Do you agree or > >> >> >> > disagree? > > >> >> >> Quit attempting to open secondary discussions, Jason, it is dishonest. > >> >> >> Everyone examines anything in light of their worldview. Some of us > >> > are able > >> >> >> to see the truth even though we might be looking at something that is > >> >> >> diametrically opposed to our worldview. Others can't see the splinter > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> the log. > > >> >> >The advocates of creation science are able to do the same thing. > > >> >> To do what? You didn't have a meaningful antecedent. > > >> >> I know that the advocates of creation science refuse to learn science or > >> >> admit the facts that they know about, so you cannot possibly be saying > >> >> that they are willing to look at the scientific evidence. > > >> > I subscribe to the ICR newsletter. They have an article written by someone > >> > that has a Ph.D. degree in every issue. I believe the older articles are > >> > on the website. For example, if you typed a term into their search engine, > >> > the result would probably be an article that was once part of a > >> > newsletter. > >> > Jason > > >> Oh, someone who has a Ph.D. Should we all kneel? > > >To Jason, a Ph.D. is only of value if the person is also a believer. > >He's on record as having said that non-believers are "fucking morons". > > If we're "fucking morons" in Jason's eyes, how is it that we're making > a complete and utter fool out of him? <G>- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 17 Jun., 21:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182076039.822522.86...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, George > > > > > > Chen <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 17, 5:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > I had no reason to not believe her testimony. > > > You admitted that she hadn't produced any evidence. That right there > > is a good reason not to believe her testimony. On top of that, there > > is the fact that no car accident is going to result in her leg being > > two inches shorter, not unless the accident resulted in part of her > > foot being severed off: I'm sure plenty of us here have had broken > > arms or broken legs and we know that doctors never remove pieces of > > bone, knowing that the break will repair on its own if it is set in > > place. Bones heal naturally and people don't claim that God was > > involved. > > > You had plenty of reason to not believe her testimony. Stop lying > > about that. > > Her leg bone was crushed in the accident. The doctors had to remove about > two inches of bone. The doctor used pins put together the two sections. I > have a friend that lost about 4 inches of leg bone in an accident. He > wears a platform shoe on one foot and walks with a limp. Cheryl walked > with a limp before God caused her leg bone to grow two inches. She never > would have become Miss America if God had not healed the leg bone.- I am the one who healed her leg. You have yet to refute my evidence. Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 17 Jun., 21:43, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182072589.110570.285...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 17, 3:28 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <je8873pjs52mgi113uqmgk7v7uidq6t...@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 > > > <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote: > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > > > > <...> > > > > >Whether or not > > > > >atheists believe that God healed Cheryl Prewitt and William Kent is > > > > >probably not important to Cheryl Prewitt or William Kent. > > > > > On the day that Christians like Prewitt and Kent do not care about the > > > > beliefs of those whose beliefs differ from theirs, pigs will fly and > > > > bones will grow. > > > > > Kent speaks: > > > > >http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/miraclehealingtestimony.html > > > > > "In the meantime be blessed and relax in the Spirit of the Lord and I > > > > am looking forward to God blessing the masses through the blessing > > > > that He has bestowed upon me as I follow His directive to go forth and > > > > spread the Word and demonstrate the awesome power of the Lord as He > > > > has provided in me." > > > > > Prewitt wrote a book on her alleged miracle. > > > > Good point. Do you think the people that buy her book will be Christians > > > or atheists? Would you buy a copy of her book? > > > > Now that you mention it, I do recall that there was a book table near the > > > entrance. I should have waited for the service to be over. I could have > > > purchased a copy of her book and had it signed by Cheryl Prewitt. > > > So her motivation was to sell her book, eh? > > > You should have looked at her book, Jason. Then asked her why she > > didn't include any of her medical records to prove her story. > > > Martin > > Martin, > As various people have told me, even if medical evidence proved her leg > bone grew two inches, it would not prove that God healed her leg bone. Of > course, Cheryl Prewitt and many Christians believe that God caused her leg > bone to grow two inches. Of course their beliefs are not evidence no matter how many times you tediously mention that irrelevant fact. As a result of the belief system of atheists, I > now understand why atheists do not believe that God healed her leg bone > since atheists do not believe there is a God. We have told you why we do not believe it, but you continue to lie about it, but it would only be surprising if you didn't. The belief system of > Christians is the reason we believe that God caused her leg bone to grow > two iches and also caused William Kent to no longer need to make use of a > wheel chair. In short you have no evidence. I do not believe it because you have no evidence, just as I do not believe in your god; because you have no evidence. It is not nice to lie to people's faces about their motivations, and it makes you look like a fool. > jason- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 17 Jun., 21:48, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182076891.543736.111...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, George > > > > > > > > Chen <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 17, 6:19 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <2di873lbeeshm9r2u5i2dp4c1q3cv5p...@4ax.com>, Jim07D7 > > > > <Jim0...@nospam.net> wrote: > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > > > > > >No, there was a crowd of people gathered around the table waiting for > > > > >Cheryl to show up and sign the books for them. I did not buy a > copy. I had > > > > >already heard her testimony so saw no reason to read the book. It was > > > > >probably her life story--including details about the car accident and > > > > >healing. > > > > > So you don't know if she presents any evidence in the book, for her > > > > claims. > > > > No--I did not buy the book or read the book. As someone pointed out to me, > > > even if the physical evidence proved that the bone grew two inches--it > > > would not prove that God healed her. Of course, Cheryl and most of the > > > Christians that heard her testimony and have read her book believe that > > > God healed her leg. > > > Which tells you what, exactly? > > > I'd answer my own question but you'd accuse me of disparaging > > Christians. > > That the belief system of people determined whether they believed that God > did or did not heal her leg bone. The reason they gave for not believing was lack of evidence, yet you continue to lie about it. >Feel free to answer the question.- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 17 Jun., 22:15, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f53are$o...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > I don't believe that you understood my point. It's probably because I done > > > a poor job of explaining my point. I'll try again. > > > No, it's because your point was wrong. > > > > Let's say (for the sake of discussion) a scientist (that is an advocated > > > of evolution and abiogenesis) makes this statement in an article or a > > > book: > > > > "We had a time when there was no life. We now have life. Thus, it is > > > logical to conclude that life naturally evolved from non-life." > > > No reputable scientist would say such a thing so it's a meaningless > > question. > > > > Would you conceed that most of the advocates of abiogenesis and evolution > > > theory agree with the above statement? > > > No. > > > If your answer is yes, this is the > > > problem: > > > > There are at least three possible causes of life evolving from non-life: > > > > 1. abiogenesis > > > Get a clue. You've already admitted that abiogenesis happened. > > > John Baker: Actually, Jason, abiogenesis is an absolute proven fact. > > Whether it came about through divine intervention or by purely natural > > means, at some point in the planet's history, life did arise from > > non-life. We both agree on that. We just disagree about how it happened. > > > Jason: Excellent point. > > > #1 should be "natural causes." > > > > 2. intelligent design > > > OK, any evidence that a god exists to have done this designing? Also how > > did this god come about? > > > > 3. ancient astronauts > > > And who caused them to come to be? > > > > The scientist (mentioned above) failed to take intelligent design or > > > ancient astronauts into consideration. He just assumed that "life > > > naturally evolved from non-life". > > > And that's why he wouldn't have said what you tried to make him say. > > > > I mentioned that many advocates of evolution and abiogenesis don't know > > > the difference between speculation and evidence. > > > No, you've claimed that but you're only proving that YOU are the one who > > doesn't have a clue as to the difference. > > > > This leads to another question: Is the statement of the above mentioned > > > scientist based on evidence or speculation that life naturally evolved > > > from non-life. > > > Why do you come up with these fantasies and expect us to comment on > > them? It's about as useless as asking "who is faster, superman or the > > flash?" > > Thanks for your post. You explained your point of view very well. I'll try > to remember to stop stating, "Good Point" because that would cause people > to think that I agreed with every point.- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On 18 Jun., 07:41, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182139867.548778.155...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 11:43 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <MPG.20dfb89df125c4b598a...@216.196.97.136>, Brian E. Clark > > > > <r...@newsgroup.only.please> wrote: > > > > In article <Jason-1606071439470001@66-52-22- > > > > 19.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, Jason said... > > > > > > I could give other examples. > > > > > I doubt you can top your claim that creation > > > > science was taught in the 1700s. > > > > It was not called creation science in those days. The basics of creation > > > science is in the first two chapters of the Bible. > > > So now the Bible is a scientific text? > > > Martin > > I never stated that the Bible is a scientific text. However, there is > scientific information in the first two chapters of the Bible.- Skjul tekst i anf Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182140066.278306.60...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 12:46 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <f54spi$kdh$0...@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris > > > <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote: > > > > Jason wrote: > > > > > In article <f539gg$u7...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Jason wrote: > > > > >>> In article <brKdnS6w5O9iCenbnZ2dnUVZ_qfin...@sti.net>, "David V." > > > > >>> <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>> Jason wrote: > > > > >>>>> In order for lower life forms (living cells) to evolve into > higher life > > > > >>>>> forms (mammals)--major mutations would have been required. > > > > >>>> No, it would not. > > > > > >>>>> example: Hyracotherium evolving into Equus > > > > >>>> Which is why a hyracotherium did not evolve into an equus. > > > > > >>>> Evolution doesn't work that way.... and you know it. > > > > >>> Did you want me to mention all of the steps: > > > > > >>> step 1: Hyracotherium--"vaguely horselike creature" > > > > >>> step 2: Orohippus > > > > >>> step 3: Epihippus > > > > >>> step 4: Mesohippus > > > > >>> step 5: Dinohippus > > > > >>> step 6: Equus--"modern genus of horse" > > > > >> And that right there shows that "a hyracotherium did not evolve into an > > > > >> equus." In fact, there wasn't just those 6 steps. There was millions of > > > > >> steps where a hyracotherium evolved into antother hyracotherium > that was > > > > >> just the tiniest bit different. Then that one evolved into another that > > > > >> was a tiniest bit different, etc. Eventually these differences added up > > > > >> enough to where we no longer called it a Hyracotherium but instead > > > > >> called it a Orohippus. But there wasn't any point where some animal was > > > > >> 2' tall and then all of a sudden its immediate offspring were 4' tall > > > > >> like cretinists like to make it look. > > > > > >> It didn't take a major mutation but simply required thousands or > > > > >> millions of tiny ones. > > > > > > I understand your points. Is it possible that some of the mutations were > > > > > major mutatations (eg related to size)? It's my understanding that the > > > > > Hyracotherium was about the same size as a German shepard dog--is that > > > > > true? > > > > > jason > > > > > No idea about the size of that animal. > > > > > But how is a bigger size a major mutation? Apart from the fact that just > > > > for size you don't even NEED mutation. > > > > In relation to size, for the sake of discussion, let's say the the only > > > canines that were in the world 1 billion years a ago were 10 pairs of > > > minature schnauzers. How long would it take for them to be the size of > > > Saint Bernards? > > > Did your creation-believing biology professor fail to tell you that > > dog breeds have developed over the past 10 000 years as a result of > > selective breeding by mankind? Some teacher, huh? > You failed to answer my hypothethcal question. Let's say the dogs were NOT > minature schnauzers but were the same size of minature schnauzers. Stop lying, Jason. I've answered all your questions and you've not only failed to answer ours, you haven't even tried. The point is that it is NOT a hypothetical question: dogs have evolved due to artificial selection during the period mankind has had a chance to observe them. Deal with it. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:30 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <3sOdnbBzB_DpmevbnZ2dnUVZ_oytn...@sti.net>, "David V." > <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > > In relation to size, for the sake of discussion, let's say the > > > the only canines that were in the world 1 billion years a ago > > > were 10 pairs of minature schnauzers. How long would it take > > > for them to be the size of Saint Bernards? > > > Why are you making the false assumption that they would get > > bigger, or smaller, or even change at all? What if only one of > > those 10 males was in a condition to produce viable offspring, > > and that males was shorter than normal? And then add to that the > > only female that could reproduce had longer than average wool. > > Then add to that a climate that is getting warmer. They're going > > to die out, not get bigger. > > > The question that needs to be answered, honestly, is why do you > > so desperately need to debase evolution? It's been shown to you > > many times that your objections are not based on anything that > > has to do with evolution and every thing to do with blindly > > following a religious stance. Why can't you accept the fact of > > evolution? > > The Hyracotherium (a vaguely horselike creature) eventually (after 4 > steps) evolved into Equus (the modern genus of horse). The Hyracotherium > (according to my high school biology teacher) was about the size of a > german shepard dog. That led me to wander if a dog that was the size of a > minature schnauzer could also evolve into a canine that was the size of a > Saint Bernard. As of yet, I have not received an answer. You're a lying piece of shit, Jason. The answer was 10 000 years (or less). It's not our fault if you are completely illiterate. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:33 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182139677.747090.320...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 11:26 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <erob73dgmo89h1o3gf1t1uj7ursjd87...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:40:34 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > > <Jason-1706071940340...@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > >In article <1182126494.043693.273...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Martin > > > > >Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 18, 3:22 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> > In article > > <1182076039.822522.86...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, George > > > > > > > > > >> > Chen <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >> > > On Jun 17, 5:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> > > > I had no reason to not believe her testimony. > > > > > >> > > You admitted that she hadn't produced any evidence. That > right there > > > > >> > > is a good reason not to believe her testimony. On top of > that, there > > > > >> > > is the fact that no car accident is going to result in her > leg being > > > > >> > > two inches shorter, not unless the accident resulted in part of her > > > > >> > > foot being severed off: I'm sure plenty of us here have had broken > > > > >> > > arms or broken legs and we know that doctors never remove pieces of > > > > >> > > bone, knowing that the break will repair on its own if it is set in > > > > >> > > place. Bones heal naturally and people don't claim that God was > > > > >> > > involved. > > > > > >> > > You had plenty of reason to not believe her testimony. Stop lying > > > > >> > > about that. > > > > > >> > Her leg bone was crushed in the accident. The doctors had to > remove about > > > > >> > two inches of bone. > > > > > >> In a previous post, you said the doctors "probably" had to remove two > > > > >> inches of bone. Now you're claiming to know for certain. > > > > > >> > The doctor used pins put together the two sections. I > > > > >> > have a friend that lost about 4 inches of leg bone in an accident. > > > > > >> For young people, the bones will naturally heal. For older people, > > > > >> the process is much slower and daily wear and tear may prevent > > > > >> healing. > > > > > >> > He > > > > >> > wears a platform shoe on one foot and walks with a limp. Cheryl > walked > > > > >> > with a limp before God > > > > > >> God doesn't exist. You know full well that he doesn't: the fact that > > > > >> there are no gods in existance has been proven to you often enough > > > > >> already. I find it hard to believe anybody can be this thick. > > > > > >1.9 billion people are Christians. I find it hard to believe that so many > > > > >people do not believe in God. I find it hard to believe about the number > > > > >of people that believe that life could evolve from non-life. How did the > > > > >energy that expanded during the Big Bang come to be? Intelligent Design > > > > >makes more sense than a theory that indicates that everything came about > > > > >by the rules of chance. A 747 Jet is much less complex than the Solar > > > > >System. A 747 Jet is the result of intelligent design but people like > > > > >yourself believe the solar system came about by chance. Could a 747 jet > > > > >come about by chance? NO Could the solar system come about by > chance? NO > > > > >Jason > > > > > No one claims that the solar system or life on earth came about by > > > > chance. That characterization is a lie told by anti-science > > > > creationists. The solar system and life on earth came about a result of > > > > consistent natural processes. > > > > > Learn to use words correctly and stop listening to the liars at the ICR. > > > > The solar system either came about by intelligent design or by chance. > > > There's a third possibility: gravitational pull. > > > It's more than a possibility, actually: unlike your god, gravity > > actually exists. > > How did the energy that expanded during the Big Bang come to be? Stop asking the same stupid questions over and over again. We've told you time and time again that gravitational potential energy is negative and, thus, the total energy of the universe could add up to zero. Are you honestly telling us that you are too stupid to understand that? It's a wonder you passed Math 101 at all. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:41 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182139867.548778.155...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 11:43 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <MPG.20dfb89df125c4b598a...@216.196.97.136>, Brian E. Clark > > > > <r...@newsgroup.only.please> wrote: > > > > In article <Jason-1606071439470001@66-52-22- > > > > 19.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, Jason said... > > > > > > I could give other examples. > > > > > I doubt you can top your claim that creation > > > > science was taught in the 1700s. > > > > It was not called creation science in those days. The basics of creation > > > science is in the first two chapters of the Bible. > > > So now the Bible is a scientific text? > I never stated that the Bible is a scientific text. However, there is > scientific information in the first two chapters of the Bible. You must be joking. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness. GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day. GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created. GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created. GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created. GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created. GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time. GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later. GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction. LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.) GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation. GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation. (Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.) GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses. EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses. GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit. GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years. GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil. HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil. GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's. 2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view. GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god. EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire. EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god. LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing. NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce. 2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it." EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him." 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love. GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord. JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth. GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood. GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood. NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood. GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind. NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind. GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark. GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark. GE 7:1 Noah was righteous. JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous. LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous. JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective). 1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians). RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous. GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark. GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?). GE 11:7-9 God sows discord. PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord. GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world. 1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion. GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah. LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah. GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born. GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time). GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years. GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen. EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him. GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel. GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel. GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings. JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing. GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son. GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God. JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots. GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting. GA 6:15 It is of no consequence. GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession." GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled. GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings. LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong. GE 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view. GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring. 2PE 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous." GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses. JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). 1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations. JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one. GE 27:28 "May God give you ... an abundance of grain and new wine." DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine. PS 104:15 God gives us wine to gladden the heart. JE 13:12 "... every bottle shall be filled with wine." JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine. RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine. GE 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel. GE 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob. GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz. 1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek. GE 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin. RE 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.) GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite. AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor. EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses. NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses. EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies. EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor. EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc. 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love. EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians. EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils. EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed. EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback. EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God. EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as more than 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of about 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt. 1KI 20:15 All the Israelites, including children, number only 7000 at a later time. EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war--he is fierce and angry. RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace. EX 20:1-17 God gave the law directly to Moses (without using an intermediary). GA 3:19 The law was ordained through angels by a mediator (an intermediary). EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever. EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images. EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins. DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins. EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions. MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath). RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance. EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus. MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple. MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father. EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK 18:20, RO 13:9, JA 2:11 God prohibits killing. GE 34:1-35:5 God condones trickery and killing. EX 32:27, DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18 God orders killing. 2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord slaughters 185,000 men. (Note: See Atrocities section for many more examples.) EX 20:14 God prohibits adultery. HO 1:2 God instructs Hosea to "take a wife of harlotry." EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc. MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent. NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or children. (Note: See Atrocities section for many other examples of the killing of innocents.) EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. NU 14:30 God breaks his promise. EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. 1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception. EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. 2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.) EX 34:6-7, JS 24:19, 1CH 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good. IS 45:6-7, LA 3:8, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil. EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven. JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven. LE 3:17 God himself prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat. MT 15:11, CN 2:20-22 Jesus and Paul say that such rules don't matter-- they are only human injunctions. LE 19:18, MT 22:39 Love your neighbor [as much as] yourself. 1CO 10:24 Put your neighbor ahead of yourself. LE 21:10 The chief priest is not to rend his clothes. MT 26:65, MK 14:63 He does so during the trial of Jesus. LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest. MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest. NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness. JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness. NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin. HE 10:11 They never take away sin. NU 25:9 24,000 died in the plague. 1CO 10:8 23,000 died in the plague. NU 30:2 God enjoins the making of vows (oaths). MT 5:33-37 Jesus forbids doing so, saying that they arise from evil (or the Devil). NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor. DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera. NU 33:41-42 After Aaron's death, the Israelites journeyed from Mt. Hor, to Zalmonah, to Punon, etc. DT 10:6-7 It was from Mosera, to Gudgodah, to Jotbath. DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry. MT 5:22 Anger is a sin. DT 7:9-10 God destroys his enemies. MT 5:39-44 Do not resist your enemies. Love them. DT 18:20-22 A false prophet is one whose words do not come true. Death is required. EZ 14:9 A prophet who is deceived, is deceived by God himself. Death is still required. DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord. IS 56:4-5 Some castrates will receive special rewards. DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord. MT 19:12 Men are encouraged to consider making themselves castrates for the sake of the Kingdom of God. DT 24:1-5 A man can divorce his wife simply because she displeases him and both he and his wife can remarry. MK 10:2-12 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery. DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins. RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam. DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law. RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law. JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some. LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful. JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him. JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing. JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir. JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who thereby obtained the hand of Caleb's daughter, Achsah. 1SA 8:2-22 Samuel informs God as to what he has heard from others. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees and hears everything. 1SA 9:15-17 The Lord tells Samuel that Saul has been chosen to lead the Israelites and will save them from the Philistines. 1SA 15:35 The Lord is sorry that he has chosen Saul. 1SA 31:4-7 Saul commits suicide and the Israelites are overrun by the Philistines. 1SA 15:7-8, 20 The Amalekites are utterly destroyed. 1SA 27:8-9 They are utterly destroyed (again?). 1SA 30:1, 17-18 They raid Ziklag and David smites them (again?). 1SA 16:10-11, 17:12 Jesse had seven sons plus David, or eight total. 1CH 2:13-15 He had seven total. 1SA 16:19-23 Saul knew David well before the latter's encounter with Goliath. 1SA 17:55-58 Saul did not know David at the time of his encounter with Goliath and had to ask about David's identity. 1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot. 1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath (again?) with a sword. 1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath. 2SA 21:19 Elhanan killed Goliath. (Note: Some translations insert the words "the brother of" before Elhanan. These are an addition to the earliest manuscripts in an apparent attempt to rectify this inconsistency.) 1SA 21:1-6 Ahimalech was high priest when David ate the bread. MK 2:26 Abiathar was high priest at the time. 1SA 28:6 Saul inquired of the Lord, but received no answer. 1CH 10:13-14 Saul died for not inquiring of the Lord. 1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword. 2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite. 2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa. 1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God. 2SA 6:23 Michal was childless. 2SA 21:8 (KJV) She had five sons. 2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census. 1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census. 2SA 24:9 The census count was: Israel 800,000 and Judah 500,000. 1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel 1,100,000 and Judah 470,000. 2SA 24:10-17 David sinned in taking the census. 1KI 15:5 David's only sin (ever) was in regard to another matter. 2SA 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of silver for the purchase of a property. 1CH 21:22-25 He paid 600 shekels of gold. 1KI 3:12 God made Solomon the wisest man that ever lived, yet .... 1KI 11:1-13 Solomon loved many foreign women (against God's explicit prohibition) who turned him to other gods (for which he deserved death). 1KI 3:12, 4:29, 10:23-24, 2CH 9:22-23 God made Solomon the wisest king and the wisest man that ever lived. There never has been nor will be another like him. MT 12:42, LK 11:31 Jesus says: "... now one greater than Solomon is here." 1KI 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 2CH 9:25 He had 4,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors. 2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors. 1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high. 2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high. 1KI 7:26 Solomon's "molten sea" held 2000 "baths" (1 bath = about 8 gallons). 2CH 4:5 It held 3000 "baths." 1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness. 1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light. 1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God. AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men. 1KI 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 2CH 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places. 2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them. 1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign. 2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign. 1KI 16:23 Omri became king in the thirty-first year of Asa's reign and he reigned for a total of twelve years. 1KI 16:28-29 Omri died, and his son Ahab became king in the thirty- eighth year of Asa's reign. (Note: Thirty-one through thirty-eight equals a reign of seven or eight years.) 1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit. PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty. 1KI 22:42-43 Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places. 2CH 17:5-6 He did remove them. 2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven. JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven. 2CO 12:2-4 An unnamed man, known to Paul, went up to heaven and came back. HE 11:5 Enoch was translated to heaven. 2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus). MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself). AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. 2KI 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign. 2CH 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign. [Note: Some translations use "twenty-two" here in an attempt to rectify this discrepancy. The Hebrew is clear, however, that 2CH 22:2 is 42. The Hebrew words involved are Strong's H705 and H8147, "forty" and "two," respectively.] 2KI 9:27 Jehu shot Ahaziah near Ibleam. Ahaziah fled to Meggido and died there. 2CH 22:9 Ahaziah was found hiding in Samaria, brought to Jehu, and put to death. 2KI 16:5 The King of Syria and the son of the King of Israel did not conquer Ahaz. 2CH 28:5-6 They did conquer Ahaz. 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) was eighteen years old when he began to reign. 2CH 36:9 He was eight. (Note: This discrepancy has been "corrected" in some versions.) 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) reigned three months. 2CH 36:9 He reigned three months and ten days. 2KI 24:17 Jehoiachin (Jehoaikim) was succeeded by his uncle. 2CH 36:10 He was succeeded by his brother. 1CH 3:11-13 The lineage is: Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham. MT 1:8-9 It is: Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, etc. 1CH 3:19 Pedaiah was the father of Zerubbabel. ER 3:2 Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel. 2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord. RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases. ER 2:3-64 (Gives the whole congregation as 42,360 while the actual sum of the numbers is about 30,000.) JB 2:3-6, 21:7-13, 2TI 3:12 The godly are persecuted and chastised but the wicked grow old, wealthy, and powerful, unchastised by God. PS 55:23, 92:12-14, PR 10:2-3, 27-31, 12:2, 21 The lives of the wicked are cut short. The righteous flourish and obtain favor from the Lord. PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is "far off." PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth. PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer. PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help. PS 30:5, JE 3:12, MI 7:18 God's anger does not last forever. JE 17:4, MT 25:46 It does last forever. (He has provided for eternal punishment.) PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance. PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles. PS 78:69, EC 1:4, 3:14 The earth was established forever. PS 102:25-26, MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33, HE 1:10-11, 2PE 3:10 The earth will someday perish. PR 3:13, 4:7, 19:8, JA 1:5 Happy is the man who finds wisdom. Get wisdom. LK 2:40, 52 Jesus was filled with wisdom and found favor with God. 1CO 1:19-25, 3:18-20 Wisdom is foolishness. PR 12:2, RO 8:28 A good man obtains favor from the Lord. 2TI 3:12, HE 12:6 The godly will be persecuted. PR 14:8 The wisdom of a prudent man is to discern his way. MT 6:25-34 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. PR 14:15-18 The simple believe everything and acquire folly; the prudent look where they are going and are crowned with knowledge. MT 18:3, LK 18:17 You must believe as little children do. 1CO 1:20, 27 God has made the wisdom of the world foolish so as to shame the wise. PR 16:4 God made the wicked for the "day of evil." MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 God and Jesus hide some things from some people. JN 6:65 No one can come to Jesus unless it is granted by God. RO 8:28-30 Some are predestined to be called to God, believe in Jesus, and be justified. RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on, and hardens the hearts of, whom he pleases. 2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked so as to be able to condemn them. 1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 [Yet] God wants all to be saved. PR 8:13, 16:6 It is the fear of God that keeps men from evil. 1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear. 1JN 5:2, 2JN 1:6 Those who love God keep his commandments. PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too. PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise. PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God. JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people. (Note: Some versions translate deceive as "persuade." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.) IS 3:13 God stands to judge. JL 3:12 He sits to judge. IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone. JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation. IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others. MT 27:58-60, MK 15:45-46, LK 23:52-53, JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself. JE 12:13 Some sow wheat but reap thorns. MI 6:15 Some sow but won't reap anything. MT 25:26, LK 19:22 Some reap without sowing. 2CO 9:6, GA 6:7 A man reaps what he sows. JE 32:18 God shows love to thousands, but brings punishment for the sins of their fathers to many children. 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love. JE 34:4-5 Zedekiah was to die in peace. JE 52:10-11 Instead, Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die. EZ 20:25-26 The law was not good. The sacrifice of children was for the purpose of horrifying the people so that they would know that God is Lord. RO 7:12, 1TI 1:8 The law is good. EZ 26:15-21 God says that Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again. (Nebudchanezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.) DN 5:1 (Gives the title of "king" to Belshazzar although Belshazzar was actually the "viceroy.") DN 5:2 (Says that Nebuchadnezzar was the father of Belshazzar, but actually, Nebonidus was the father of Belshazzar.) (Note: Some versions attempt to correct this error by making the verse say that Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar.) ZE 11:12-13 Mentions "thirty pieces" and could possibly be thought to be connected with the Potter's Field prophesy referred to in Matthew. MT 27:9 Jeremiah is given as the source of the prophesy regarding the purchase of the Potter's Field. (Note: There is no such prophesy in Jeremiah.) MT 1:6-7 The lineage of Jesus is traced through David's son, Solomon. LK 3:23-31 It is traced through David's son, Nathan. (Note: Some apologists assert that Luke traces the lineage through Mary. That this is untrue is obvious from the context since Luke and Matthew both clearly state that Joseph was Jesus' father.) MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father. LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father. MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus. LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three. MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus. LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception. MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph. LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary. MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be "great," the "son of the Most High," etc., and .... MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet .... MK 3:21 Jesus' own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and .... MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism). MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel). MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus. MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod's death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.) LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants. MT 2:23 "And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He will be called a Nazarene.'" (This prophecy is not found in the OT and while Jesus is often referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth", he is seldom referred to as "Jesus the Nazarene.") MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel. MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah. MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light). MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an "outer darkness" (and therefore dark). MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending. JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending. MT 3:17 The heavenly voice addressed the crowd: "This is my beloved Son." MK 1:11, LK 3:22 The voice addressed Jesus: "You are my beloved Son...." MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil. JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. MT 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to the mountain top. LK 4:5-9 First to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle of the temple. MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.) LK 5:2-11 (A different story.) JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.) MT 5:1 - 7:29 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the mount. LK 6:17-49 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the plain. (Note: No such sermons are mentioned in either MK or JN and Paul seems totally unfamiliar with either the sermon on the mount or the sermon on the plain.) MT 5:16 Good works should be seen. MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret. MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus underscores the permanence of the law. LE 10:8 - 11:47, DT 14:3-21 The law distinguishes between clean and unclean foods. MK 7:14-15, MK 7:18-19 Jesus says that there is no such distinction. 1TI 4:1-4 All foods are clean according to Paul. MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law. EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law. MT 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell. MT 7:26 Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool. (Note: The translation now prevalent, "like a foolish man," in MT 7:26 is a dishonest attempt to alleviate the obvious inconsistency here in that the oldest Greek manuscripts use the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and "like a foolish man" in MT 7:26.) MT 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools. MT 25:2, 3, 8 Jesus likens the maidens who took no oil to fools. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.) 1CO 1:23, 3:18, 4:10 Paul uses fool with regard to Christians becoming fools for Christ. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.) MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin. EP 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin. MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin. MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works. MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season. MK 3:5 Jesus looks around "angrily." MT 5:32 Divorce, except on the grounds of unchastity, is wrong. MK 10:11-12 Divorce on any grounds is wrong. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Jesus says: "Do not resist evil. Love your enemies." MT 6:15, 12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, MK 7:6, LK 11:40, 44, 12:56 Jesus repeatedly hurls epithets at his opponents. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies. LK 19:27 God is likened to one who destroys his enemies. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies. 2JN 1:9-11 Shun anyone who does not hold the proper doctrine. MT 5:43-44, MT 22:39 Love your enemies. Love your neighbor as yourself. MT 10:5 Go nowhere among the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan town. JN 8:58-59 Jesus hid himself, apparently to avoid being stoned. MT 5:45, 7:21 God resides in heaven. MK 13:32 The angels reside in heaven AC 7:55, HE 12:2 Jesus is at the right hand of God, in heaven. 1PE 1:3-4 Believers will inherit eternal life in heaven. MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33 Heaven will pass away. MT 6:13 God might lead us into temptation and it is better avoided. JA 1:2-3 Temptation is joy. MT 6:13 Jesus' prayer implies that God might lead us into temptation. JA 1:13 God tempts no one. MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. 1TI 5:8 A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. (Note: Providing for a family certainly involves taking "thought for tomorrow.") MT 7:1-2 Do not judge. MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet. MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find. LK 13:24 Many will try to enter the Kingdom but will be unable. MT 7:21 Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. AC 2:21, RO 10:13 Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. AC 2:39 Those God calls to himself will be saved. MT 7:21, LK 10:36-37, RO 2:6, 13, JA 2:24 We are justified by works, not by faith. JN 3:16, RO 3:20-26, EP 2:8-9, GA 2:16 We are justified by faith, not by works. MT 8:5-12 The centurion himself approaches Jesus to ask to heal his servant. LK 7:2-10 The centurion sends elders to do the asking. MT 8:16, LK 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick. MK 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all). MT 8:28-33 Two demoniacs are healed in the Gadarene swine incident. MK 5:2-16, LK 8:26-36 One demoniac is healed in this incident. MT 9:18 The ruler's daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her. LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead. MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal... MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so. MT 10:2, MK 3:16-19 The twelve apostles (disciples) were: Simon (Peter), Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, John his brother, Philip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus (Labbaeus), Simon, and Judas Iscariot. LK 6:13-16 The above except that Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, and Judas the son of James is added (and Judas Iscariot remains). AC 1:13, 26 Same as MT and MK except that, like LK Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, Judas the son of James is included, and Mathias is chosen by the others to replace Judas Iscariot. MT 10:2, 5-6 Peter was to be an apostle to the Jews and not go near the Gentiles. AC 15:7 He was an apostle to the Gentiles. MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves. MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves. MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division--not peace. JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace." MT 10:22, 24:13, MK 13:13 He that endures to the end will be saved. MK 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved. JN 3:5 Only he that is born of water and Spirit will be saved. AC 16:31 He that believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. AC 2:21 He that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. RO 10:9 He who confesses with his mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. 1JN 4:7 He who loves is born of God (and presumably will be saved.) MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.) MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc. MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more. JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah. MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 Jesus thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes." He says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain hidden to at least some persons, and specifically so that they will not turn and be forgiven. MK 4:22 Jesus says that all things should be made known. MT 11:29 Jesus says that he is gentle (meek) and humble (lowly). JN 2:15 Jesus makes a whip of cords, drives the money changers from the Temple, overturns their tables, and pours out their coins. (Note: The presence of the money changers in the outer court of the Temple had been authorized by the Temple authorities and was, in fact, a necessity since the Jews would not accept Roman coin for the purchase of sacrifices.) MT 12:5 Jesus says that the law (OT) states that the priests profane the Sabbath but are blameless. (No such statement is found in the OT. MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him. MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him. (Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.) MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign." JN 3:2, 20:30, AC 2:22 Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs." MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples. JN 1:1 - 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.) MT 13:58, MK 6:5 In spite of his faith, Jesus is not able to perform mighty miracles. MT 17:20, 19:26, MK 9:23, 10:27, LK 17:6, 18:27 Jesus says that anything is possible to him who believes if he has the faith of a grain of mustard seed. All things are possible with God. A mountain can be commanded to move and it will move. MT 5:37, 15:19, MK 7:22, JN 8:14, 44, 14:6, 18:37 Jesus says that you should answer a plain "yes" or "no," that his purpose is to bear witness to the truth, and that his testimony is true. He equates lying with evil. JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.) MT 16:6, 11 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. MK 8:15 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod. MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom. MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] "Satan" and "a hindrance," and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God. MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom. AC 15:1-21 James presides over the first Council of Jerusalem and formulates the decree regarding the accepting of Gentiles which is sent to the other churches. (Note: Tradition has it that James was appointed as the first Bishop or Pope, not Peter.) MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering. LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards. MT 20:20-21 The mother of James and John asks Jesus a favor for her sons. MK 10:35-37 They ask for themselves. MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give. MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus. MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho. MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man. MT 21:1-17 The sequence was: triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, Bethany. MK 11:1-19 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple. LK 19:28-48 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, daily teaching in the temple. JN 12:1-18 Cleansing of the temple (early in his career), Supper with Lazarus, triumphal entry, no cleansing of the temple following the triumphal entry. MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT). JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself. MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry. MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved. MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus' career. JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career. MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed. MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following. MT 23:35 Jesus says that Zacharias (Zechariah) was the son of Barachias (Barachiah). 2CH 24:20 Zacharias was actually the son of Jehoida, the priest. (Note: The name Barachias, or Barachiah, does not appear in the O.T.) MT 24:29-33, MK 13:24-29 The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. LK 17:20-21 It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles. It is already within. MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus. JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus. MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jesus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper. LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee. MT 26:7, MK 14:3 The oil is poured on Jesus' head. LK 7:38, JN 12:3 On his feet. MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing. JN 12:3 It is Mary. MT 28:6-8 The women ran from the tomb "with great joy." JN 20:1-2 Mary told Peter and the other disciple that the body had been stolen. (Would she feel "great joy" if she thought the body had been stolen?) MT 26:8 The disciples reproach her. MK 14:4 "Some" reproach her. JN 12:4-5 Judas Iscariot reproaches her. MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal. JN 13:21-30 After the meal. MT 26:20-29, MK 14:17-28, JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper. LK 22:14-23 After the communion portion. MT 26:26-29, MK 14:22-25 The order of the communion was: bread, then wine. LK 22:17-20 It was: wine, then bread. MT 26:34, LK 22:34, JN 13:38 Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed. MK 14:30 Before the cock crowed twice. MK 14:66-72 The cock crows after both the first and second denials. (Note: These discrepancies have been "translated out" in some Bible versions.) MT 26:40-45, MK 14:37-41 The disciples fall asleep three times. LK 22:45 One time. MT 26:49-50, MK 14:44-46 Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized. LK 22:47-48 Jesus anticipates Judas' kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned. JN 18:2-9 Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned. MT 26:51, MK 14:47, JN 18:10 The ear of a slave is cut off and left that way. LK 22:50-51 The severed ear is miraculously healed by Jesus. MT 26:52 Dispose of swords. All who take the sword will perish by it. LK 22:36-38 Buy swords. MT 26:57, MK 14:53, LK 22:54 After his arrest Jesus is first taken to Caiphas, the high priest. JN 18:13-24 First to Annas, the son-in-law of Caiphas, then to Caiphas. MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate. LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover. JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation. MT 26:59-66, MK 14:55-64 Jesus was tried by the entire Sanhedrin (the chief priests and the whole council). LK 22:66-71 There was no trial but merely an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin. JN 18:13-24 There was no appearance before the Sanhedrin, only the private hearings before Annas and then Caiphas. MT 26:63, LK 22:70 The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. MK 14:61 He asks Jesus if he is the Son of the Blessed. MT 26:64, LK 22:70 Jesus answers: "You have said so," or words to this effect. MK 14:62 He answers directly: "I am." MT 26:69-70 Peter makes his first denial to a maid and "them all." MK 14:66-68, LK 22:56-57, JN 18:17 It was to one maid only. MT 26:71-72 Peter's second denial is to still another maid. MK 14:69-70 (Apparently) to the same maid. LK 22:58 To a man, not a maid. JN 18:25 To more than one, "they." MT 26:73-74, MK 14:70-71 Peter's third denial is to bystanders (two or more). LK 22:59-60 To "another" (one). JN 18:26-27 To one of the servants. MT 26:74 The cock crowed once. MK 14:72 The cock crowed twice. MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field. AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field. MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed. AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field. MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself. AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out. MT 27:11, MK 15:2, LK 23:3 When asked if he is King of the Jews, Jesus answers: "You have said so," (or "Thou sayest"). JN 18:33-34 He answers: "Do you say this of your own accord?" MT 27:11-14 Jesus answers not a single charge at his hearing before Pilate. JN 18:33-37 Jesus answers all charges at his hearing before Pilate. MT 27:20 The chief priests and elders are responsible for persuading the people to ask for the release of Barabbas. MK 15:11 Only the chief priests are responsible. LK 23:18-23 The people ask, apparently having decided for themselves. MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy). MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty). MT 27:32, MK 15:21, LK 23:26 Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross. JN 19:17 Jesus carries his own cross with no help from anyone. MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews." MK 15:26 "The King of the Jews." LK 23:38 "This is the King of the Jews." JN 19:19 "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." MT 27:44 Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him. LK 23:39-42 Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so. MT 27:46 Jesus asks God, the Father, why he has been forsaken. JN 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one. MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit." JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.") MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it. JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it. MT 27:54 The centurion says: "Truly this was the son of God." MK 15:39 He says: "Truly this man was the son of God!" LK 23:47 He says: "Truly this man was innocent" (or "righteous"). MT 27:55, MK 15:40, LK 23:49 The women looked on from afar. JN 19:25-26 They were near enough that Jesus could speak to his mother. MT 27:62-66 A guard was placed at the tomb (the day following the burial). MK 15:42- 16:8, LK 23:50-56, JN 19:38-42 (No guard is mentioned. This is important since rumor had it that Jesus' body was stolen and the Resurrection feigned.) MK 16:1-3, LK 24:1 (There could not have been a guard, as far as the women were concerned, since they were planning to enter the tomb with spices. Though the women were aware of the stone, they were obviously unaware of a guard.) MT 24:9 Even some of the disciples of Jesus will be killed. JN 8:51 If anyone keeps Jesus' words, he will never see death. HE 9:27 [All] men die once, then judgement follows. MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two). MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three). LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five). JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one). MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived. MK 16:2 It was after sunrise. LK 24:1 It was at early dawn. JN 20:1 It was still dark. MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later. MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away. MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb). MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb. LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb. JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb. MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples. MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone. LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest. JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping. MT 28:8-9 Jesus' first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem). JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb. MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet. JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father. JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him. MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions. MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted. MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven. MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven. LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven. JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again. 1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul. MT 28:19 Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize. 1CO 1:17 Although he considers himself a disciple of Jesus, Paul says that he has not been sent to baptize. MK 1:2 Jesus quotes a statement that allegedly appears in Isaiah. No such statement appears in Isaiah. (Note: IS 40.3 is seen by some as equivalent to MK 1.2; MA 3.1 is a much better fit, however, given that Jesus is allegedly quoting word for word in MK 1:2.) MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist. JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist. MK 1:23-24 A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. 1JN 4:1-2 Everyone who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. (Note: This would mean that the demon is of God.) MK 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. AC 13:39, CN 2:13, 1JN 1:9 All sins are forgivable. MK 4:11-12, 11:25 Jesus says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain secret to at least some persons. He explains the meanings of the parables only to his disciples. He thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes." JN 18:20 Jesus says that he always taught openly, never secretly. MK 6:16 Herod was the source of the belief that John had been raised from the dead. LK 9:7 Others were the source. Herod was perplexed by the belief. MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with "the Feeding of the Multitude" that they did not even understand the event. JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king. MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret. JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum. MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified. JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time. MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body. JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth. MK 16:5, LK 24:3 The women actually entered the tomb. JN 20:1-2, 11 They did not. MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem. LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem). AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet. MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.) LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus. LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away. LK 1:67 So did Zechariah. LK 2:25 So did Simeon. LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time). JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed. LK 8:12 The Devil causes unbelief. MK 4:11-12 Jesus is responsible for unbelief in at least some cases. 2TH 2:11-12 God is ultimately responsible for unbelief in at least some cases. LK 14:26 No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters. 1JN 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1JN 4:20 If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. LK 18:9-14 Do not boast of your virtue. RO 11:20, 1PE 5:5 Do not be proud. RO 15:17, 2CO 1:12, HE 3:6, 2CO 2:14, 5:12, 11:17 Paul boasts of his faith and says that one should be proud of it. LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper. JN 13:27 It was during the supper. LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise. JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later. LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to anoint the body. JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed). JN 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one. JN 14:28 God is greater than Jesus. JN 1:1 Jesus was God incarnate. AC 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God. JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge. JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge. JN 5:22 God does not judge. RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge. JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement. MT 12:36, RO 5:18, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13 All persons (including believers) come into judgement. JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus. JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.) JN 10:27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost. 1TI 4:1 Some of them will be lost. JN 12:31 The Devil is the ruler (or "prince") of this world. 1CO 10:26, RE 1:5 Jesus is the ruler of kings--the earth is his. JN 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons will be saved. 1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 God wants all to be saved. JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved. RE 14:1-4 Heaven will be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men (only?). JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going. JN 14:5 Thomas does the same. JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going. JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas. JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period. JN 17:12 Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT). (Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.) JN 18:37 Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. RO 1:18-20 The truth has always been evident. JN 20:9 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (meaning the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.) JN 20:22 In his first resurrection appearance before the assembled disciples, Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit. AC 1:3-5, AC 2:1-4 The Holy Spirit was received much later (on Pentecost.) JN 21:25 The world probably could not contain the books if all that Jesus did were to be recorded. AC 1:1 The author of Acts has already written about all that Jesus began to do. AC 5:19, 12:6-11 The disciples take part in a jailbreak made possible by an angel. AC 5:40-42 The disciples disobey the Council and continue to teach and preach Jesus. RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God. AC 5:29 Obey God, not men. RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God. AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion heard the voice but saw no one. AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice. AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion stood. AC 26:14 They fell to the ground. AC 9:19-28 Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, then Jerusalem where he was introduced to the Apostles by Barnabas, and there spent some time with them (going in and out among them). GA 1:15-20 He made the trip three years later, then saw only Peter and James. AC 9:23 The governor attempted to seize Paul. 2CO 11:32 It was the Jews who tried to seize Paul. AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. RO 9:11-13 God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before their birth. AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. RO 9:18 God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc. AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia. AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway. AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.) RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin). RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified. RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified. RO 2:15 The law is written on the heart. Conscience teaches right from wrong. 1JN 2:27 Anointing by Jesus teaches right from wrong. RO 4:9 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. JA 2:21 Abraham was justified by works (which made his faith perfect). RO 10:11 (An alleged OT quote; no such statement in the OT.) RO 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended. CN 2:16 Let no one pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink. 1CO 7:8-9 Widows should not marry (although it is better to marry than burn). 1TI 5:14 Young widows should marry, bear children, rule the household, etc.. 1CO 8:4 There is only one God. 2CO 4:4 Satan is God of this world (therefore there are at least two gods). 1CO 10:33 Paul says that he tries to please men (so they might be saved). GA 1:10 Paul says he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. 2CO 12:16 Paul says that he does use trickery. 1TH 2:3 Paul says that he does not use trickery. GA 6:2 Bear one another's burdens. GA 6:5 Bear your own burden. 1TH 2:2 God gave Paul the courage to continue his work. 1TH 2:17-18 Satan hindered Paul. (Note: Who is stronger, Satan or God?) 1TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners. 1JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin. TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever. 2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work. 1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith. JA 4:5 (Quotes an alleged scripture [OT] verse not found in the OT.) RE 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ... REV 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:47 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182139338.508689.267...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 10:59 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1182126930.187720.194...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 18, 3:32 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > In article > > <46753d99$0$1182$61c65...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > > > > > "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > > > > > "Martin" <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > >news:1182071263.602369.18620@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Jun 16, 2:13 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > >> I once talked to a > > > > > > >> biology professor that was an advocate of creation science. > He knew as > > > > > > >> much about evolution as any of the other biology professors > that worked > > > > > > >> at > > > > > > >> that college. > > > > > > > > Obviously not. > > > > > > > It is possible to believe in everything about evolution itself, > and still > > > > > > believe there was some external creating entity that either > created the > > > > > > universe initially and/or caused life to first emerge. > Evolution really > > > > > > only kicks in once there is life and a process in place for > selection and > > > > > > mutation to take place. > > > > > > > So its not incompatible .. but not necessarily reasonable .. to > believe in > > > > > > some sort of creator that did his job and then let nature (his > creation) > > > > > > take its course (see deism). > > > > > > I understand your point. That is the reason college biology > teachers that > > > > > are advocates of creation science can teach their students about > evolution > > > > > as well as college biology professors that are NOT advocates of creation > > > > > science. > > > > > You can't teach using the scientific method and still believe in > > > > religious fantasies. It's not good enough for the teacher to say > > > > "This is what you need to know for the exam." > > > > I disagree with you. That professor that was an advocate of creation > > > science taught biology as well as the other professors. > > > If he taught YOU biology then he didn't teach very well, did he? > He was not my biology professor. However, I did set in on one of his > classes as per his request since we were friends and he invited me to one > of his classes. I wanted to take his class but the class was full. And on that basis you decided he was as good a teacher as professors who actually had a clue what they were talking about?! Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 1:56 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1182139543.678330.149...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jun 18, 11:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <ifnb73lua0eg6thsdngnunfdkmrljbu...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:11:46 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > > <Jason-1706071911460...@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > >In article <1182125415.442137.252...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Martin > > > > >Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On Jun 18, 2:22 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > >> > It's very possible that ICR requires their employees to sign a > pledge. I > > > > >> > have read that Microsoft programmers are required to sign some > sort of > > > > >> > pledge or agreement stating that will not share the computer > codes with > > > > >> > other companies. Some employees of Coca Cola have to sign pledges or > > > > >> > agreements stating they will not share the formulae for Coke > with other > > > > >> > companies. ICR would NOT require non-employees to sign a > pledge. Even if > > > > >> > they wanted to do it, non-employess would just refuse to sign > the pledge. > > > > >> > If they asked me to sign the pledge, I would not sign it. > > > > > >> Okay, Jason, be honest (for once). Why are you here, day after day, > > > > >> promoting their website if you're not working for them? Do you think > > > > >> lying about science is going to get you into your imaginary heaven? > > > > > >I am retired from work. I don't work for ICR but do subscribe to their > > > > >newsletter. > > > > >Jason > > > > > Why do you subscribe to their newsletter when it is full of lies and > > > > make Christians look bad? > > > > I enjoy reading the articles. > > > Too bad you don't enjoy reading actual science journals. You could > > then learn something. > That would be a good idea. You've had plenty of time though. It would give you something to do other than asking inane questions here and then lying about our answers. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 > J...@nospam.com (Jason) said: > >In article <1182126494.043693.273...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> On Jun 18, 3:22 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > In article <1182076039.822522.86...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, George > >> > Chen <georgech...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > > On Jun 17, 5:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > > > I had no reason to not believe her testimony. > > >> > > You admitted that she hadn't produced any evidence. That right there > >> > > is a good reason not to believe her testimony. On top of that, there > >> > > is the fact that no car accident is going to result in her leg being > >> > > two inches shorter, not unless the accident resulted in part of her > >> > > foot being severed off: I'm sure plenty of us here have had broken > >> > > arms or broken legs and we know that doctors never remove pieces of > >> > > bone, knowing that the break will repair on its own if it is set in > >> > > place. Bones heal naturally and people don't claim that God was > >> > > involved. > > >> > > You had plenty of reason to not believe her testimony. Stop lying > >> > > about that. > > >> > Her leg bone was crushed in the accident. The doctors had to remove about > >> > two inches of bone. > > >> In a previous post, you said the doctors "probably" had to remove two > >> inches of bone. Now you're claiming to know for certain. > > >> > The doctor used pins put together the two sections. I > >> > have a friend that lost about 4 inches of leg bone in an accident. > > >> For young people, the bones will naturally heal. For older people, > >> the process is much slower and daily wear and tear may prevent > >> healing. > > >> > He > >> > wears a platform shoe on one foot and walks with a limp. Cheryl walked > >> > with a limp before God > > >> God doesn't exist. You know full well that he doesn't: the fact that > >> there are no gods in existance has been proven to you often enough > >> already. I find it hard to believe anybody can be this thick. > > >1.9 billion people are Christians. I find it hard to believe that so many > >people do not believe in God. I find it hard to believe about the number > >of people that believe that life could evolve from non-life. How did the > >energy that expanded during the Big Bang come to be? Intelligent Design > >makes more sense than a theory that indicates that everything came about > >by the rules of chance. A 747 Jet is much less complex than the Solar > >System. A 747 Jet is the result of intelligent design but people like > >yourself believe the solar system came about by chance. Could a 747 jet > >come about by chance? NO Could the solar system come about by > >chance? NO It isn't a binary choice between intelligent design and random chance: there are forces at work that can be shown to result in the universe forming the way it did without any intelligence being involved, just as we now no longer have to hypothesize God's involvement to explain why it rains or why earthquakes occur. Similarly, we can observe Jason's posts and realize that, while they are not random, there was, nevertheless, no intelligence involved in making them. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 3:22 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: <garbage snipped> We already know there are a lot of idiots and frauds out there, Jason. You don't need to remind us. I snipped this from a post by simple_language@yahoo.com A more general issue affects American surveys on religious beliefs, namely, the "social desirability effect," in which respondents are reluctant to give an unpopular answer in a society in which being religious is the norm. What happens when questions are framed to overcome this distortion? The FT/H poll tried to counteract it by allowing space not only for the customary "Not sure" but also for "Would prefer not to say" -- and 6 percent of Americans chose this as their answer to the question of whether they believed in God or a supreme being. Add to this those who declared themselves as atheists or agnostics and, lo and behold, the possible sum of unbelievers is nearly one in four Americans. All this helps explain the popularity of the New Atheists -- Americans as a whole may not be getting too much religion, but a significant constituency must be getting fed up with being routinely marginalized, ignored and insulted. After all, unbelievers are concentrated at the higher end of the educational scale -- a recent Harris American poll shows that 31 percent of those with postgraduate education do not avow belief in God (compared with only 14 percent of those with a high school education or less). The percentage rises among professors and then again among professors at research universities, reaching 93 percent among members of the National Academy of Sciences. Unbelievers are to be found concentrated among those whose professional lives emphasize science or rationality and who also have developed a relatively high level of confidence in their own intellectual faculties. And they are frequently teachers or opinion-makers. source: http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/54054 Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 3:51 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f55286$t78$0...@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris > <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > In article <qgvbk4-7cg....@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > > > <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> [snips] > > > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:34:42 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > >>> I don't want to be argumentative re: to the Big Bang. > > >> Yes, you do; you demonstrate it regularly. > > > >>> However, I > > >>> continue to believe that it is speculation that the big bang was the > > >>> beginning of time. Do you believe that it is speculation or a fact? > > >> I think you need to ponder what the very concept of "time" actually means, > > >> and how it is defined. You seem to think it is some sort of magic thing > > >> which exists independent of everything around us. > > > >> What's even stranger is, you seem to think that time is some sort of > > >> absolute - that regardless of any other factors, it marches steadily on > > >> anyhow, unaffected by space, motion and the like. Yet we know this is > > >> simply not true, that time is, in fact, variable - and is, in fact, > > >> impacted by motion. > > > >>> That leads to another question: > > >>> Is a mathematical model evidence or speculation? > > >> Mathematics can describe; it cannot prescribe. Or, put another way, > > >> someone creating a mathematical model of something can show us that it is > > >> valid mathematically without it ever having any basis in describing the > > >> real world. > > > >> As an example of this, there's an odd little bit of math I once read > > >> about that says if you cut up an orange just right, then re-assemble the > > >> parts, the results could be larger than the sun - yet contain no holes. > > >> Perhaps, in mathematics, this would be true, but it is based on the > > >> concept of infinite divisibility and infinitely small spaces - and that > > >> is something which simply does not apply to the real world. > > > >> Such a model needs to actually be compared to the real world to see if it > > >> is, in fact, a correct modeling of the world, or simply a nice little > > >> mathematical puzzle. > > > > Let's say that a mathematician develops a mathematical model. Several > > > years later, another mathematician develops a new mathematical model that > > > disproves the first mathematical model. Is that possible? > > > No. You can't disprove a mathematical model. It is just that: A > > mathematical model. It doesn't need to have anything to do with the real > > world. > > > If your answer > > > is yes, does not mean that mathematical model should never become a > > > theory? > > > No. You mixed up "mathematical model" and "scientific theory". Again. > Can a mathematical model become a theory? Only if evidence exists that shows it to be an accurate description of the real world. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 3:44 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article > <46760992$0$1189$61c65...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-1706071822190001@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <%4idi.1073$P8....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > >>news:Jason-1706071232190001@66-52-22-4.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > >> > In article > > >> > <46753d99$0$1182$61c65...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > > >> > "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > > >> >> "Martin" <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > >> >>news:1182071263.602369.18620@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> > On Jun 16, 2:13 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >> >> >> I once talked to a > > >> >> >> biology professor that was an advocate of creation science. He knew > > >> >> >> as > > >> >> >> much about evolution as any of the other biology professors that > > >> >> >> worked > > >> >> >> at > > >> >> >> that college. > > > >> >> > Obviously not. > > > >> >> It is possible to believe in everything about evolution itself, and > > >> >> still > > >> >> believe there was some external creating entity that either created > > >> >> the > > >> >> universe initially and/or caused life to first emerge. Evolution > > >> >> really > > >> >> only kicks in once there is life and a process in place for selection > > >> >> and > > >> >> mutation to take place. > > > >> >> So its not incompatible .. but not necessarily reasonable .. to > > >> >> believe > > >> >> in > > >> >> some sort of creator that did his job and then let nature (his > > >> >> creation) > > >> >> take its course (see deism). > > > >> > I understand your point. That is the reason college biology teachers > > >> > that > > >> > are advocates of creation science can teach their students about > > >> > evolution > > >> > as well as college biology professors that are NOT advocates of > > >> > creation > > >> > science. > > >> > Jason > > > >> Jason, what is your understanding of a creation scientist? What views do > > >> the > > >> people hold who call themselves creation scientists? > > > > It's my guess that they perform their jobs as well as scientists that are > > > advocates of evolution. Most of the advocates of creation science are also > > > advocates of Natural Selection. Many of them know as much about evolution > > > as the advocates of evolution. > > > > They probably hold this view: God created mankind; some plants and some > > > animals. After the creation process was finished, natural selection kicked > > > in. > > > > Many scientists have jobs that are not related to issues related to > > > abiogenesis. For example, David F. Coppedge works in the Cassini program > > > at the Jet Propolsion Laboratory. He is an advocate of creation science. I > > > doubt if the scientists that work at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory ever > > > conduct any experiments related to abiogenesis. > > > So .. why did god wait for an eternity (an infinite amount of time) before > > deciding to create the universe. What was god doing all that time .. where > > was he doing it . .what will he do for the eternity after the universe > > ceases to exist? > > Such questions are difficult for me to answer. I can only provide a guess. > There was a war in heaven between the angels. God won the battle and the > angel that started the war (and the angels that fought on his side) were > cast down to the earth. The angel was re-named Satan and his followers > were re-named demons. God may have created another planet and sun (similar > to our planet and our sun). He may also have created people to live on > that planet; some plants and some animals. Of course, I am only guessing. Speculation. But that's what religion is based on, isn't it? It's not like you have ANY evidence? Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 On Jun 18, 3:52 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f550vg$l7p$0...@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris > <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > In article <1182125258.409052.162...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jun 18, 2:08 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >>> In article > > >>> <46753e27$0$1181$61c65...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>, > > > >>> "Jeckyl" <n...@nowhere.com> wrote: > > >>>> On Jun 16, 9:26 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >>>>> I hope those Arabic Christians realize that the true God is very > > > different > > >>>>> than a false God. > > >>>> Just as you believe your god to be true and others false, everyone else > > >>>> believes their gods true and your god false. If you go by majority > > >>>> decision, EVERY god must be false > > >>> Or--one of the Gods may be the true God. > > >> You better hope it's not Allah then. > > > It's not. > > > How do you know? > > > I hate to say this AGAIN! > > > Any evidence? Except your book, of course? > My belief system Belief is not evidence. Try again. Or better yet, give up and concede defeat. It would be about bloody time. Martin Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-1706071952180001@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <1182127507.933282.87890@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 18, 4:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > The audience of the staff members employed by ICR is not atheists. >> >> Science is for everybody, Jason. Apparently religion is just for >> those who already believe. That's good to know because it means that >> when people get a clue then religious people should give up on them >> and the eventual trend will be for religion to one day disappear >> altogether. >> >> Martin > > Martin, > I doubt that you read the article that I posted several days ago. The > author of the article indicated that the propondents of evolution want to > marginalize the advocates of intelligent design. The main method of doing > this is by putting pressure on the editors of scientific journals to not > publish any articles written by the advocates of intelligent design. Upon > request, I'll post it again. > jason It doesn't make any difference what the article says. The reason ID is published infrequently is because it isn't science. This was clearly established at Dover. Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-1706072222500001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <1182140066.278306.60300@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 18, 12:46 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > In article <f54spi$kdh$0...@news.t-online.com>, Tokay Pino Gris >> > <tokay.gris.b...@gmx.net> wrote: >> > > Jason wrote: >> > > > In article <f539gg$u7...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> > >> > > >> Jason wrote: >> > > >>> In article <brKdnS6w5O9iCenbnZ2dnUVZ_qfin...@sti.net>, "David V." >> > > >>> <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > >>>> Jason wrote: >> > > >>>>> In order for lower life forms (living cells) to evolve into > higher life >> > > >>>>> forms (mammals)--major mutations would have been required. >> > > >>>> No, it would not. >> > >> > > >>>>> example: Hyracotherium evolving into Equus >> > > >>>> Which is why a hyracotherium did not evolve into an equus. >> > >> > > >>>> Evolution doesn't work that way.... and you know it. >> > > >>> Did you want me to mention all of the steps: >> > >> > > >>> step 1: Hyracotherium--"vaguely horselike creature" >> > > >>> step 2: Orohippus >> > > >>> step 3: Epihippus >> > > >>> step 4: Mesohippus >> > > >>> step 5: Dinohippus >> > > >>> step 6: Equus--"modern genus of horse" >> > > >> And that right there shows that "a hyracotherium did not evolve >> > > >> into an >> > > >> equus." In fact, there wasn't just those 6 steps. There was >> > > >> millions of >> > > >> steps where a hyracotherium evolved into antother hyracotherium > that was >> > > >> just the tiniest bit different. Then that one evolved into another >> > > >> that >> > > >> was a tiniest bit different, etc. Eventually these differences >> > > >> added up >> > > >> enough to where we no longer called it a Hyracotherium but instead >> > > >> called it a Orohippus. But there wasn't any point where some >> > > >> animal was >> > > >> 2' tall and then all of a sudden its immediate offspring were 4' >> > > >> tall >> > > >> like cretinists like to make it look. >> > >> > > >> It didn't take a major mutation but simply required thousands or >> > > >> millions of tiny ones. >> > >> > > > I understand your points. Is it possible that some of the mutations >> > > > were >> > > > major mutatations (eg related to size)? It's my understanding that >> > > > the >> > > > Hyracotherium was about the same size as a German shepard dog--is >> > > > that >> > > > true? >> > > > jason >> > >> > > No idea about the size of that animal. >> > >> > > But how is a bigger size a major mutation? Apart from the fact that >> > > just >> > > for size you don't even NEED mutation. >> > >> > In relation to size, for the sake of discussion, let's say the the only >> > canines that were in the world 1 billion years a ago were 10 pairs of >> > minature schnauzers. How long would it take for them to be the size of >> > Saint Bernards? >> >> Did your creation-believing biology professor fail to tell you that >> dog breeds have developed over the past 10 000 years as a result of >> selective breeding by mankind? Some teacher, huh? >> >> Martin > > You failed to answer my hypothethcal question. Let's say the dogs were NOT > minature schnauzers but were the same size of minature schnauzers. You ask too many hypothetical questions. The size has nothing to do with the ability to evolve into a larger animal as most animals on earth did. Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-1706071911460001@66-52-22-65.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <1182125415.442137.252240@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 18, 2:22 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > It's very possible that ICR requires their employees to sign a pledge. >> > I >> > have read that Microsoft programmers are required to sign some sort of >> > pledge or agreement stating that will not share the computer codes with >> > other companies. Some employees of Coca Cola have to sign pledges or >> > agreements stating they will not share the formulae for Coke with other >> > companies. ICR would NOT require non-employees to sign a pledge. Even >> > if >> > they wanted to do it, non-employess would just refuse to sign the >> > pledge. >> > If they asked me to sign the pledge, I would not sign it. >> >> Okay, Jason, be honest (for once). Why are you here, day after day, >> promoting their website if you're not working for them? Do you think >> lying about science is going to get you into your imaginary heaven? >> >> Martin > > Martin, > I am retired from work. I don't work for ICR but do subscribe to their > newsletter. > Jason It would appear that you have also retired from critical thinking. Quote
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