Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Jun 28, 1:37 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <f5tl6k$53...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > In article <1182914771.873163.36...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jun 27, 2:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >>> Why is there a symbol of a crescent moon on top of every Muslim mosque in > > >>> the world? > > >> Why does a halo appear on the head of every saint in pictures? Why > > >> does sun symbolism continue to the present day on robes, banners, > > >> icons, behind the cross in a ray of light, flames coming from the > > >> heart of Jesus, etc.? Who do priests bow and kiss a monstrance which > > >> is a gold statue of the sun on a pedestal during processions? Why do > > >> Christians go to church on Sunday when the old testament claimed that > > >> Jesus would rise after three days, ie three days after Friday and > > >> therefore on Monday? > > > >> Answer the damn questions, Jason. > > > >> Martin > > > > I am not a Catholic so as a result have never done any research regarding > > > Catholics. I don't why artists painted halos on the heads of saints. > > > Perhaps it was part of the culture or a rule established by a Pope. You > > > may want to visit the art department and ask that question to the > > > professor that teaches courses related to the history of art. I suggest > > > that you visit Wikipedia and type "Easter Sunday". It clearly states that > > > Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. > > > And yet your bible clearly says he would rise after THREE days. > > > Where's the 3rd day, Jason? Do you now believe wikipedia over your own > > bible? > > The deciples worshipped on Sunday. The disciples never even existed. Martin Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:21:08 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2606072121090001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <1182912658.981044.211660@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 27, 2:10 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > In article <1182873615.385634.169...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> > > On 26 Jun., 02:04, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> > > > In article <1182813173.218982.308...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >Martin >> > >> > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > > > > What if people in Ohio wanted teachers to teach that the Earth was >> > > > > flat? Do you think teachers should go along with it? I'd quit >> > > > > outright. Their loss. >> > >> > > > The teachers that don't want to teach the established curriculum in a >> > > > state school should quit. >> > >> > > I didn't think you would answer the question. Apparently you are >> > > afraid of it just like all the others you ignore. >> > >> > I did provide an answer--perhaps you were not satisfied with my >> > answer--but I did provide an answer. >> >> I agree. You said that if the established curriculum stated that the >> Earth were flat then you, as a teacher, would feel honour bound to >> teach that. This is precisely why you should not presume to "teach", >> especially to young kids. >> >> Martin > >If I was employed as a teacher, I would follow the established curriculum. >I would quit my job if the established curriculum required me to teach >that the earth was flat. >Jason > But you want equally serious lies about 'creation' to be taught. Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 01:36:20 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2706070136210001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <1182928749.302055.19420@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: .... >> Then you understand how qualified science teachers would react to any >> school board that wanted then to "teach" ID. >> >> Martin > >Martin, >Yes, can you understand how qualified science teachers that were advocates >of creation science would react to any school board that wanted them to >teach about the primordial pond? >Jason > There is no creation science. You have a fantasy hypothetical. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <vd06831c4gm4kugrq7o8p0jqgt4cmnanp2@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:45:56 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-2706071045570001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <d8m483tp7b6g9lv9i1ahbdvmi2uecv6vun@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein > ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:25:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , Jason@nospam.com > >> (Jason) in > >> <Jason-2606072325290001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> >I hope that the people in the ID movement do a better job during the next > >> >court case. It's obvious to me that the evolutionists are afraid that the > >> >children will realize that ID makes more sense than evolution so they will > >> >spend millions to keep any school systems from teaching ID. > >> > >> You keep saying this, but I doubt you believe it. You can't tell us > >> anything about ID, you can't tell us about the evidence in support of > >> it, all you do is point to the Discovery Institute or some evangelical > >> ministry. If it made more sense then you would make your case by > >> talking about ID. > >> > >> >If they were > >> >really sure that evolution would win the competition--they would not be > >> >concerned if it was taught in the public schools. > >> > >> Sorry, but the public schools are not a place for competition like > >> that. There is no other subject where people want to teach children > >> multiple ideas and let the child choose. We don't teach multiple > >> version of history, we don't teach multiple versions of math, and we > >> should not teach multiple versions of biology. That is, if you > >> actually had something to teach. But all you have is creationism, a > >> religious subject, and some vague claim that some designers did > >> somethings somewhere. (I have no idea how that makes sense to you.) > > > >Have you ever taking a class where two separate theories to explain the > >same thing was discussed. I can't think of any good examples. > > > In science it is very rare. Generally, one theory is ascendant until new > evidence shows that the original theory didn't take into account enough > information and it is supplanted by a new theory. In the case of > evolution there have been changes in the past century and a half, but > they still don't change the broad outline that all life shares a common > ancestor and that life changes over time by variation and natural > selection. > > ID is not scientific so it will never be taught in a science class. It > will not even be taught in any real colleges that are affiliated with > Christian denominations. ID is a lie. Thanks for an excellent answer. jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <dtv58312phiktfiqtpv32v17teslrggnmr@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:36:14 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-2606072136150001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <1182912481.204273.80920@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > ... > >> And no science content. > >> > >> If I were a high school principal, I would not hire anyone who thought > >> an "intelligent designer" created mankind and I would fire anybody who > >> would bring such nonsense into a science classroom. I'd replace that > >> person with a qualified teacher immediately. Nobody should call > >> themselves a "teacher" and lie to young kids. It's disgraceful! > >> > >> Martin > > > >I don't know whether or not such a teacher could file a religious > >discrimination lawsuit. > > This is the United States, Jason. You can file any old absurd suit you > want, even if you want $54,000,000 because you don't like the way your > pants were altered. That doesn't mean you will win. It might even mean, > as the liars in Pennsylvania found out, that you have to pay the > attorney's bill for those who won because you were completely > irresponsible in your behavior. > > >Teachers may not be allowed to teach ID but they > >are allowed to be Christians. > > And no Christian has to believe the lies you teach about life on earth > to be a Christian. The _vast_ majority of Christians in this country > have no problem with the evidence that shows that evolution happened. It > takes heretics like you to tell lies about this. Not according to polls. They took a poll in Ohio and the result was that 68% wanted both evolution and ID to be taught. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <vxDgi.17320$19.831@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-2706071737290001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <3bAgi.2288$K9.1965@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-2606072331270001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article <1182920697.691354.172560@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > >> > gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > >> > > >> >> On 26 Jun., 22:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > In article <1182888250.489184.198...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> >> > > On 26 Jun., 03:04, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > > > In article <K3Zfi.7097$n9.2...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> >> > > >> >> > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> >> > > > >news:Jason-2506071704090001@66-52-22-98.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> > > > > > In article > >> >> > > > > > <1182813173.218982.308...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >> >> > Martin > >> >> > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> On Jun 26, 3:17 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> > In article > >> >> > > > > >> > <1182773965.426707.320...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.c= > >> >> om>, > >> >> > > > > >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> > > On 25 Jun., 03:18, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> > > > In article > >> >> > > >> >> > <DipthotDipthot-A725FE.16174624062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > In article > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > <Jason-2306071116110...@66-52-22-111.lsan.pw-dia.impulse= > >> >> .net>, > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > I want to make it legal for teachers > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > to teach ID > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > But it is legal to do that... > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > ... in a comparative religions, class, for example. > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > So what's your problem? > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > I was referring to high school science and biology > >> >> > > > > >> > > > classes= > >> >> . Of > >> >> > > > > >> > > > course, > >> >> > > > > >> > > > evolution should also be taught in those same > >> >> > > > > >> > > > classes. > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > > Why should a person with no understanding of science > >> >> > (self-admitted) > >> >> > > > > >> > > decide what should be taught in a science class? Why > >> >> > > > > >> > > should > >> >> > the US > >> >> > > > > >> > > give up religious freedom? > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> > I posted a poll yesterday which indicated that most of > >> >> > > > > >> > the > >> >> > people that > >> >> > > > > >> > live in Ohio want ID and Evolution to be taught in the > >> >> > > > > >> > public > >> >> > schools. > >> >> > > > > >> > I > >> >> > > > > >> > believe the people in Ohio should decide what subjects > >> >> > > > > >> > should > >> >> > be taught > >> >> > > > > >> > in > >> >> > > > > >> > the public schools. > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> What if people in Ohio wanted teachers to teach that the > >> >> > > > > >> Earth > >> >> > > > > >> w= > >> >> as > >> >> > > > > >> flat? Do you think teachers should go along with it? I'd > >> >> > > > > >> quit > >> >> > > > > >> outright. Their loss. > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> Martin > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > The teachers that don't want to teach the established > >> >> > > > > > curriculum = > >> >> in a > >> >> > > > > > state school should quit. > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > You side-stepped the issue Jason, do we let the public dictate > >> >> > > > > what > >> >> > science > >> >> > > > > is correct?? Take you Jason, you are what is known as a > >> >> > > > > scientific > >> >> > > > > illiterate. Do we let you and people like you, chose the > >> >> > > > > science > >> >> > curriculum? > >> >> > > >> >> > > > No-- > >> >> > > >> >> > > In that case what you say below must be wrong. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >but the people that live in Ohio should have a voice in deciding > >> >> > > > school curriculum. In this case over 60% of those people want > >> >> > > > both > >> >> > > > ID= > >> >> and > >> >> > > > evolution to be taught.- > >> >> > > >> >> > > And you just agreed that people ignorant of science should not > >> >> > > determine the science curriculum. > >> >> > > >> >> > I doubt that most judges are experts related to science. I believe > >> >> > that > >> >> > elected representatives should determine education policy--not > >> >> > unelected > >> >> > evolutionists. Its my opinion that evoltionists do not want ID to be > >> >> > taught since they are concerned the children would realize that ID > >> >> > makes > >> >> > more sense than evolution.- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > >> >> > > >> >> > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > >> >> > > >> >> > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - > >> >> > >> >> Biologists are experts in science. The majority of the voters in Ohio > >> >> are not, and you just agreed that people ignorant of science should > >> >> not > >> >> determine the science curriculum. > >> > > >> > I trust the elected members of school boards more than I trust > >> > unelected > >> > evolutionists. They have an agenda which is to prevent a competing > >> > theory > >> > from being taught. > >> > >> What unelected 'evolutionists'? Either explain your terminology or quit > >> using it. You don't think a creationist school board has an agenda?? Have > >> mercy! > > > > I explained why I use the term 'evolutionist' in another post. Summary > > version: I found the term on page 8 of the Nov/2004 issue of National > > Geographic. > > > > Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. > > Well, can you explain the context in which you use the term or is that too > difficult for you? I explained it in other posts. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <Gr2dnTUtqYqunh7bnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > Jason wrote: > (snip) > > Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. > > I agree. How about taking a stab at summarizing what you > thing each of those agendas is about. One group wants to teach ID and evolution to the children. One group wants to teach only evolution to the the children. Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:59:28 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2706071759280001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <0m06839l4gvfhtku198i6q55ed2odt2n6v@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:42:25 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-2706071042260001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <k3m4839mgss0cijljuel3pm2nk3jonlg9c@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> > >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:16:11 -0700, in alt.atheism , Jason@nospam.com >> >> (Jason) in >> >> <Jason-2606072216110001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >In article <fqp3839gge41v4q43tmsag4qdme6g95nts@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein >> >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:12:36 -0700, in alt.atheism , Jason@nospam.com >> >> >> (Jason) in >> >> >> <Jason-2606072112370001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >In article <vfk383lau8cr3oq9f2kglqucrlkn8mgn5s@4ax.com>, Matt >Silberstein >> >> >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:49:32 -0700, in alt.atheism , Jason@nospam.com >> >> >> >> (Jason) in >> >> >> >> <Jason-2606071749330001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [snip] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >The poll indicated that over 60% of the people that live in >Ohio wanted >> >> >> >> >both ID and evolution be taught in the public schools. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What if 60% wanted separate schools for blacks and whites? >> >> >> > >> >> >> >It would be illegal for a school board to do that. >> >> >> > >> >> >> And it was illegal for the school board to put ID into the curriculum. >> >> >> >> >> >> I suggest you go and look up the history of complaint about >> >> >> legislation from the bench. They started in the '50s pretty much with >> >> >> Brown v Topeka Board of Education. When people complained about the >> >> >> Court making law what they specifically meant was when the Court ruled >> >> >> that separate but "equal" schools were illegal. >> >> > >> >> >Yes, we studied that case while I was in college. I understand your point. >> >> >The ID people should have done a better job in making sure they had no >> >> >religion mixed in--they failed. Perhaps they will do a better job the next >> >> >time. >> >> >> >> How? I mean that. ID is religion, you admit over and over that your >> >> motives and goals are religious in nature and that your source >> >> material is religious. ID is religion and any attempt by its >> >> supporters to say otherwise is just lying. Do you support lying to >> >> promote Christianity? >> > >> >Matt, >> >Yes, you are correct. However, the people in the ID movement could arrange >> >to do it in such a way that no court could find any evidence of religion. >> >They tried to do it in the Dover case but they failed. Perhaps they will >> >never succeed. >> >Jason >> > >> I still cannot tell if you want them to actually engage in science or >> try to be more subtle in telling lies. > >I want them to engage in science. They have not done so and appear not to be interested in doing so. It seems that they know that they will not be able to find a shred of evidence to support ID/Creationism. >The goal is unrelated to lies. But lies are all they have right now. >The goal >is comply with the law related to religion. The law states that religion >should not be taught so they have to remove all EVIDENCE of religion in >order to comply with the law. They have to remove all religion. You keep adding 'evidence' as if you expect them to be sneaky in fitting their religion where it doesn't belong. Learn. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <4tDgi.17316$19.1318@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-2706071713420001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <G3Agi.2276$K9.86@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-2706070154310001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article <dMngi.16072$2v1.8743@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, > >> > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> > > >> >> Jason wrote: > >> >> > In article <8di383tk4k8aadt0l1ac85ua22n1mmct4f@4ax.com>, Don Kresch > >> >> > <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> In alt.atheism On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:02:36 -0700, Jason@nospam.com > >> >> >> (Jason) let us all know that: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> In article <trWdnVoGW5eUORzbnZ2dnUVZ_tDinZ2d@comcast.com>, John > >> >> >>> Popelish > >> >> >>> <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> Jason wrote: > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>>> It seems to me that the child would be more comforted knowing > >> >> >>>>> that > >> >> >>>>> the > >> >> >>>>> child's grandmother was in heaven than being told that her > >> >> > grandmother was > >> >> >>>>> lying in a casket buried in the dirt. > >> >> >>>> It also seems that the child would be even more comforted > >> >> >>>> with a dose of morphine. Unfortunately, if you raise > >> >> >>>> children on doses of either lies or opiates, they grow up to > >> >> >>>> be adults with poorly developed minds. > >> >> >>> You may have to give the child a dose of morphine after telling > >> >> >>> the > >> >> >>> child > >> >> >>> that her grandmother was not in heaven but instead was still in > >> >> >>> the > >> >> >>> casket > >> >> >>> that was buried in the dirt. > >> >> >> It's better to have the truth than a comfortable lie, don't > >> >> >> you agree? Comfortable lies come back to bite you later in life. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Don > >> >> >> --- > >> >> >> aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde > >> >> >> Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another" > >> >> >> Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" > >> >> > > >> >> > Christians do not consider it a lie. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> And yet, Jason, you want to usurp my rights and my childrens' rights > >> >> to > >> >> a secular education. > >> > > >> > Don't worry--as of now--the evolutionists are winning all of the court > >> > cases. They don't want any competition. > >> > >> The 'evolutionists' have won because they are right. In the weeks I have > >> dealt with you, you have been unable to tell any of us the science > >> involved > >> in creation science or ID and yet you continue to return to the court > >> cases. > >> You need to learn what is in the court cases if you want to continue to > >> use > >> them as an example. By the way, you have never defined for us your use of > >> the word 'evolutionists'. Care to give that a try now, since you continue > >> to > >> use the term? > > > > This is where I found the term "evolutionist": > > > > I found these sentences on page 8 of the Nov/2004 issue of National > > Geographic: > > > > "...[Darwin] spent years classifying baracles. By 1854 he was known as a > > barnacle expert--though not yet an evolutionist." > > > > The science involved related to creation science and ID is related to > > fossils and rock strata. Dr. John Baumgardner is a geophysics professor at > > the ICR Graduate School. He obtained his Ph.D in geophysics at UCLA. He > > served as a staff scientist in the Theoretical Division of Los Alamos > > National Laboratory for 20 years. Dr. Baumgardner and Dr. Steve Austin > > have done lots of research at the Grand Canyon related to fossils and rock > > strata > > I asked you, Jason, I don't care where you got the term. I want to know in > what context you use the term. Do you want me to spell it out for you??? yes Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:55:27 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2706071755270001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <mrDgi.17313$19.3321@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" ><mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: .... >It did in the Dover case. My point was that the IDers will have to make >sure there is NO evidence related to religion in the next court case. If they are going to be honest, they will never try to put ID in a science class. It isn't science. Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Jun 28, 1:45 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <d8m483tp7b6g9lv9i1ahbdvmi2uecv6...@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein > <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:25:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , J...@nospam.com > > (Jason) in > > <Jason-2606072325290...@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: > > > [snip] > > > >I hope that the people in the ID movement do a better job during the next > > >court case. It's obvious to me that the evolutionists are afraid that the > > >children will realize that ID makes more sense than evolution so they will > > >spend millions to keep any school systems from teaching ID. > > > You keep saying this, but I doubt you believe it. You can't tell us > > anything about ID, you can't tell us about the evidence in support of > > it, all you do is point to the Discovery Institute or some evangelical > > ministry. If it made more sense then you would make your case by > > talking about ID. > > > >If they were > > >really sure that evolution would win the competition--they would not be > > >concerned if it was taught in the public schools. > > > Sorry, but the public schools are not a place for competition like > > that. There is no other subject where people want to teach children > > multiple ideas and let the child choose. We don't teach multiple > > version of history, we don't teach multiple versions of math, and we > > should not teach multiple versions of biology. That is, if you > > actually had something to teach. But all you have is creationism, a > > religious subject, and some vague claim that some designers did > > somethings somewhere. (I have no idea how that makes sense to you.) > > Have you ever taking a class where two separate theories to explain the > same thing was discussed. I can't think of any good examples. There are many examples in the social sciences. Psychology: Freud's psychoanalysis versus Jung's archetypes. Education: Behaviorism versus Affective Learning. Economics: Smith's competative theory versus Nash's cooperative theory. But you wouldn't know anything about any of these fields. The social sciences are more anecdotal than the physical sciences (eg we know socialism is a bad idea because communism failed, not because millions of individual experiments have been performed) so competing theories thrive. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <os06839tfnu8a7nhoin31piv1uhqivn2ui@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:37:51 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-2606072137520001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <8di383tk4k8aadt0l1ac85ua22n1mmct4f@4ax.com>, Don Kresch > ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > > > >> In alt.atheism On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:02:36 -0700, Jason@nospam.com > >> (Jason) let us all know that: > >> > >> >In article <trWdnVoGW5eUORzbnZ2dnUVZ_tDinZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish > >> ><jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Jason wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > It seems to me that the child would be more comforted knowing that the > >> >> > child's grandmother was in heaven than being told that her > >grandmother was > >> >> > lying in a casket buried in the dirt. > >> >> > >> >> It also seems that the child would be even more comforted > >> >> with a dose of morphine. Unfortunately, if you raise > >> >> children on doses of either lies or opiates, they grow up to > >> >> be adults with poorly developed minds. > >> > > >> >You may have to give the child a dose of morphine after telling the child > >> >that her grandmother was not in heaven but instead was still in the casket > >> >that was buried in the dirt. > >> > >> It's better to have the truth than a comfortable lie, don't > >> you agree? Comfortable lies come back to bite you later in life. > >> > >> > >> Don > >> --- > >> aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde > >> Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert. > >> > >> "No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another" > >> Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" > > > >Christians do not consider it a lie. > > > The vast majority of Christians belong to religious bodies who don't > agree with you. > > It's more accurate to say that Christians do consider ID/Creationism to > be a lie. If so, why did a poll indicate that 68% of the people in Ohio want both ID and evolution to be taught? Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-2706071808350001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <Gr2dnTUtqYqunh7bnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish > <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> (snip) >> > Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. >> >> I agree. How about taking a stab at summarizing what you >> thing each of those agendas is about. > > One group wants to teach ID and evolution to the children. > One group wants to teach only evolution to the the children. That's right, one group wants to teach science and one wants to teach religion. Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-2706071807120001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <vxDgi.17320$19.831@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message >> news:Jason-2706071737290001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> > In article <3bAgi.2288$K9.1965@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" >> > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message >> >> news:Jason-2606072331270001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> >> > In article <1182920697.691354.172560@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> >> > gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On 26 Jun., 22:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > In article >> >> >> > <1182888250.489184.198...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> >> > > On 26 Jun., 03:04, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > > In article <K3Zfi.7097$n9.2...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, >> >> >> > > > "Ralph" >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message >> >> >> > > > >>news:Jason-2506071704090001@66-52-22-98.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> >> >> > > > > > In article >> >> >> > > > > > <1182813173.218982.308...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >> > Martin >> >> >> > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> On Jun 26, 3:17 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> > In article >> >> >> > > > > >> > <1182773965.426707.320...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.c= >> >> >> om>, >> >> >> > > > > >> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> > > On 25 Jun., 03:18, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > In article >> >> >> > >> >> >> > <DipthotDipthot-A725FE.16174624062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > In article >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > <Jason-2306071116110...@66-52-22-111.lsan.pw-dia.impulse= >> >> >> .net>, >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > I want to make it legal for teachers >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > to teach ID >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > But it is legal to do that... >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > ... in a comparative religions, class, for >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > example. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > So what's your problem? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > I was referring to high school science and biology >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > classes= >> >> >> . Of >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > course, >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > evolution should also be taught in those same >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > classes. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > > Why should a person with no understanding of science >> >> >> > (self-admitted) >> >> >> > > > > >> > > decide what should be taught in a science class? >> >> >> > > > > >> > > Why >> >> >> > > > > >> > > should >> >> >> > the US >> >> >> > > > > >> > > give up religious freedom? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> > I posted a poll yesterday which indicated that most of >> >> >> > > > > >> > the >> >> >> > people that >> >> >> > > > > >> > live in Ohio want ID and Evolution to be taught in the >> >> >> > > > > >> > public >> >> >> > schools. >> >> >> > > > > >> > I >> >> >> > > > > >> > believe the people in Ohio should decide what subjects >> >> >> > > > > >> > should >> >> >> > be taught >> >> >> > > > > >> > in >> >> >> > > > > >> > the public schools. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> What if people in Ohio wanted teachers to teach that the >> >> >> > > > > >> Earth >> >> >> > > > > >> w= >> >> >> as >> >> >> > > > > >> flat? Do you think teachers should go along with it? >> >> >> > > > > >> I'd >> >> >> > > > > >> quit >> >> >> > > > > >> outright. Their loss. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> Martin >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > > The teachers that don't want to teach the established >> >> >> > > > > > curriculum = >> >> >> in a >> >> >> > > > > > state school should quit. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > You side-stepped the issue Jason, do we let the public >> >> >> > > > > dictate >> >> >> > > > > what >> >> >> > science >> >> >> > > > > is correct?? Take you Jason, you are what is known as a >> >> >> > > > > scientific >> >> >> > > > > illiterate. Do we let you and people like you, chose the >> >> >> > > > > science >> >> >> > curriculum? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > No-- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > In that case what you say below must be wrong. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >but the people that live in Ohio should have a voice in >> >> >> > > >deciding >> >> >> > > > school curriculum. In this case over 60% of those people want >> >> >> > > > both >> >> >> > > > ID= >> >> >> and >> >> >> > > > evolution to be taught.- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > And you just agreed that people ignorant of science should not >> >> >> > > determine the science curriculum. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I doubt that most judges are experts related to science. I >> >> >> > believe >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > elected representatives should determine education policy--not >> >> >> > unelected >> >> >> > evolutionists. Its my opinion that evoltionists do not want ID to >> >> >> > be >> >> >> > taught since they are concerned the children would realize that >> >> >> > ID >> >> >> > makes >> >> >> > more sense than evolution.- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Vis tekst i anf=F8rselstegn - >> >> >> >> >> >> Biologists are experts in science. The majority of the voters in >> >> >> Ohio >> >> >> are not, and you just agreed that people ignorant of science should >> >> >> not >> >> >> determine the science curriculum. >> >> > >> >> > I trust the elected members of school boards more than I trust >> >> > unelected >> >> > evolutionists. They have an agenda which is to prevent a competing >> >> > theory >> >> > from being taught. >> >> >> >> What unelected 'evolutionists'? Either explain your terminology or >> >> quit >> >> using it. You don't think a creationist school board has an agenda?? >> >> Have >> >> mercy! >> > >> > I explained why I use the term 'evolutionist' in another post. Summary >> > version: I found the term on page 8 of the Nov/2004 issue of National >> > Geographic. >> > >> > Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. >> >> Well, can you explain the context in which you use the term or is that >> too >> difficult for you? > > I explained it in other posts. Bullshit!!!! Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:05:56 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2706071805560001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <dtv58312phiktfiqtpv32v17teslrggnmr@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:36:14 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-2606072136150001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <1182912481.204273.80920@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> ... >> >> And no science content. >> >> >> >> If I were a high school principal, I would not hire anyone who thought >> >> an "intelligent designer" created mankind and I would fire anybody who >> >> would bring such nonsense into a science classroom. I'd replace that >> >> person with a qualified teacher immediately. Nobody should call >> >> themselves a "teacher" and lie to young kids. It's disgraceful! >> >> >> >> Martin >> > >> >I don't know whether or not such a teacher could file a religious >> >discrimination lawsuit. >> >> This is the United States, Jason. You can file any old absurd suit you >> want, even if you want $54,000,000 because you don't like the way your >> pants were altered. That doesn't mean you will win. It might even mean, >> as the liars in Pennsylvania found out, that you have to pay the >> attorney's bill for those who won because you were completely >> irresponsible in your behavior. >> >> >Teachers may not be allowed to teach ID but they >> >are allowed to be Christians. >> >> And no Christian has to believe the lies you teach about life on earth >> to be a Christian. The _vast_ majority of Christians in this country >> have no problem with the evidence that shows that evolution happened. It >> takes heretics like you to tell lies about this. > >Not according to polls. They took a poll in Ohio and the result was that >68% wanted both evolution and ID to be taught. > It really depends on what the question is. I could probably get a majority of Americans to endorse Joseph Stalin over George Bush if I asked the question carefully enough. The fact that Americans are ignorant of science is a terrible indictment of both our educational system and the lies that they were taught in churches. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <km0683tbmtg36nahn4q30vvuc1af0hf000@4ax.com>, Doug Meredith <doug.meredith@hotmail.com> wrote: > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >I have read at least one book related to people that died for a short > >period of time (such as during surgery). The author interviewed dozens of > >those people and many of them told very similar stories. They saw a tunnel > >with a bright light at the end of it. They traveled to the light and ended > >up in heaven. Some of them told stories about relatives and friends that > >they met in heaven. Others told about meeting Jesus or God. Some told > >about seeing the river of life and huge trees. One lady actully made > >paintings of the grass and flowers that were similar to grass and flowers > >on the earth but the colors were MUCH brighter. I believed the testimonies > >of those people but I already know that atheists will NOT believe the > >testimonies of those people. > >Jason > > > > So what happened, God thought they were going to die, brought them to > heaven and realized he was wrong? > > Doug No--they all learned something from their experiences and that was probably the reason that God allowed it or perhaps caused it to happen. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <MKDgi.17324$19.16901@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-2706071755270001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <mrDgi.17313$19.3321@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> news:Jason-2706071727150001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> > In article <7rAgi.2306$K9.485@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> >> news:Jason-2706071403510001@66-52-22-67.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> > In article <NVzgi.2269$K9.1264@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > >> >> > <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> >> >> news:Jason-2706071042260001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> >> > In article <k3m4839mgss0cijljuel3pm2nk3jonlg9c@4ax.com>, Matt > >> >> >> > Silberstein > >> >> >> > <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:16:11 -0700, in alt.atheism , > >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com > >> >> >> >> (Jason) in > >> >> >> >> <Jason-2606072216110001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> > >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >In article <fqp3839gge41v4q43tmsag4qdme6g95nts@4ax.com>, Matt > >> >> >> >> >Silberstein > >> >> >> >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:12:36 -0700, in alt.atheism , > >> >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com > >> >> >> >> >> (Jason) in > >> >> >> >> >> <Jason-2606072112370001@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> > >> >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >In article <vfk383lau8cr3oq9f2kglqucrlkn8mgn5s@4ax.com>, > >> >> >> >> >> >Matt > >> >> >> >> >> >Silberstein > >> >> >> >> >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:49:32 -0700, in alt.atheism , > >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com > >> >> >> >> >> >> (Jason) in > >> >> >> >> >> >> <Jason-2606071749330001@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> > >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> [snip] > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >The poll indicated that over 60% of the people that live > >> >> >> >> >> >> >in > >> >> >> >> >> >> >Ohio > >> >> >> >> >> >> >wanted > >> >> >> >> >> >> >both ID and evolution be taught in the public schools. > >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> What if 60% wanted separate schools for blacks and whites? > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> >It would be illegal for a school board to do that. > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> And it was illegal for the school board to put ID into the > >> >> >> >> >> curriculum. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> I suggest you go and look up the history of complaint about > >> >> >> >> >> legislation from the bench. They started in the '50s pretty > >> >> >> >> >> much > >> >> >> >> >> with > >> >> >> >> >> Brown v Topeka Board of Education. When people complained > >> >> >> >> >> about > >> >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> >> Court making law what they specifically meant was when the > >> >> >> >> >> Court > >> >> >> >> >> ruled > >> >> >> >> >> that separate but "equal" schools were illegal. > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >Yes, we studied that case while I was in college. I understand > >> >> >> >> >your > >> >> >> >> >point. > >> >> >> >> >The ID people should have done a better job in making sure they > >> >> >> >> >had > >> >> >> >> >no > >> >> >> >> >religion mixed in--they failed. Perhaps they will do a better > >> >> >> >> >job > >> >> >> >> >the > >> >> >> >> >next > >> >> >> >> >time. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> How? I mean that. ID is religion, you admit over and over that > >> >> >> >> your > >> >> >> >> motives and goals are religious in nature and that your source > >> >> >> >> material is religious. ID is religion and any attempt by its > >> >> >> >> supporters to say otherwise is just lying. Do you support lying > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> promote Christianity? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Matt, > >> >> >> > Yes, you are correct. However, the people in the ID movement > >> >> >> > could > >> >> >> > arrange > >> >> >> > to do it in such a way that no court could find any evidence of > >> >> >> > religion. > >> >> >> > They tried to do it in the Dover case but they failed. Perhaps > >> >> >> > they > >> >> >> > will > >> >> >> > never succeed. > >> >> >> > Jason > >> >> >> > >> >> >> They will never succeed because ID contains no science. Religion > >> >> >> abounds > >> >> >> in > >> >> >> ID and creation science for one important reason, it is there! > >> >> > > >> >> > I agree that religion abounds in ID and creation science. However, > >> >> > if > >> >> > God, > >> >> > Jesus and scriptures are NEVER mentioned in the text book or > >> >> > curriculum > >> >> > guide--it seems to me that a judge could not call it religion. For > >> >> > example, some people believe that astronauts from some other planet > >> >> > came > >> >> > to this planet millions of years ago and left behind dozens of > >> >> > people; > >> >> > some plants and some animals. Is that idea based on religion? The > >> >> > answer > >> >> > is no. In the last court case, the IDers did a terrible job since > >> >> > lawyers > >> >> > representing evolutionists found all sorts of evidence indicating > >> >> > that > >> >> > religion was involved. > >> >> > Jason > >> >> > >> >> You don't have to specifically name your religious figure in order to > >> >> find > >> >> that religion is involved. When the descriptions fit the bible then it > >> >> will > >> >> be assumed that it is the bible. > >> > > >> > Judges are to suppose to base their rulings on evidence--not > >> > assumptions. > >> > >> They do, Jason, the evidence points to religion. > > > > It did in the Dover case. My point was that the IDers will have to make > > sure there is NO evidence related to religion in the next court case. > > My point is that it is religion and they will never be able to overcome the > reality of the situation. Perhaps you are correct. Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:08:35 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2706071808350001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <Gr2dnTUtqYqunh7bnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish ><jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> (snip) >> > Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. >> >> I agree. How about taking a stab at summarizing what you >> thing each of those agendas is about. > >One group wants to teach ID and evolution to the children. >One group wants to teach only evolution to the the children. > Why would you want to teach lies to children? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <1182993033.632933.209910@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jun 28, 1:45 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <d8m483tp7b6g9lv9i1ahbdvmi2uecv6...@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein > > <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:25:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , J...@nospam.com > > > (Jason) in > > > <Jason-2606072325290...@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: > > > > > [snip] > > > > > >I hope that the people in the ID movement do a better job during the next > > > >court case. It's obvious to me that the evolutionists are afraid that the > > > >children will realize that ID makes more sense than evolution so they will > > > >spend millions to keep any school systems from teaching ID. > > > > > You keep saying this, but I doubt you believe it. You can't tell us > > > anything about ID, you can't tell us about the evidence in support of > > > it, all you do is point to the Discovery Institute or some evangelical > > > ministry. If it made more sense then you would make your case by > > > talking about ID. > > > > > >If they were > > > >really sure that evolution would win the competition--they would not be > > > >concerned if it was taught in the public schools. > > > > > Sorry, but the public schools are not a place for competition like > > > that. There is no other subject where people want to teach children > > > multiple ideas and let the child choose. We don't teach multiple > > > version of history, we don't teach multiple versions of math, and we > > > should not teach multiple versions of biology. That is, if you > > > actually had something to teach. But all you have is creationism, a > > > religious subject, and some vague claim that some designers did > > > somethings somewhere. (I have no idea how that makes sense to you.) > > > > Have you ever taking a class where two separate theories to explain the > > same thing was discussed. I can't think of any good examples. > > There are many examples in the social sciences. > > Psychology: Freud's psychoanalysis versus Jung's archetypes. > > Education: Behaviorism versus Affective Learning. > > Economics: Smith's competative theory versus Nash's cooperative > theory. > > But you wouldn't know anything about any of these fields. > > The social sciences are more anecdotal than the physical sciences (eg > we know socialism is a bad idea because communism failed, not because > millions of individual experiments have been performed) so competing > theories thrive. > > Martin Martin, Thank for your examples. Jason Quote
Guest John Popelish Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <Gr2dnTUtqYqunh7bnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish > <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> (snip) >>> Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. >> I agree. How about taking a stab at summarizing what you >> thing each of those agendas is about. > > One group wants to teach ID and evolution to the children. > One group wants to teach only evolution to the the children. Yes, yes, but why do they want those things? Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Jun 28, 4:52 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <BUzgi.2268$K9....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > > > > > > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-2706071037190001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <f5tl6k$53...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > > >> > In article <1182914771.873163.36...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > >> > Martin > > >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> On Jun 27, 2:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >> >>> Why is there a symbol of a crescent moon on top of every Muslim > > >> >>> mosque in > > >> >>> the world? > > >> >> Why does a halo appear on the head of every saint in pictures? Why > > >> >> does sun symbolism continue to the present day on robes, banners, > > >> >> icons, behind the cross in a ray of light, flames coming from the > > >> >> heart of Jesus, etc.? Who do priests bow and kiss a monstrance which > > >> >> is a gold statue of the sun on a pedestal during processions? Why do > > >> >> Christians go to church on Sunday when the old testament claimed that > > >> >> Jesus would rise after three days, ie three days after Friday and > > >> >> therefore on Monday? > > > >> >> Answer the damn questions, Jason. > > > >> >> Martin > > > >> > I am not a Catholic so as a result have never done any research > > >> > regarding > > >> > Catholics. I don't why artists painted halos on the heads of saints. > > >> > Perhaps it was part of the culture or a rule established by a Pope. You > > >> > may want to visit the art department and ask that question to the > > >> > professor that teaches courses related to the history of art. I suggest > > >> > that you visit Wikipedia and type "Easter Sunday". It clearly states > > >> > that > > >> > Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. > > > >> And yet your bible clearly says he would rise after THREE days. > > > >> Where's the 3rd day, Jason? Do you now believe wikipedia over your own > > >> bible? > > > > The deciples worshipped on Sunday. They knew more about the time aspects > > > than we know today since they were witnesses. > > > Jason > > > What time aspects Jason? Three days and three nights is the same today as it > > was two thousand years ago. > > Our days end at 12 midnight. Are you 100% sure that was the way is was in > the first century? Night and day, Jason, have always been as different as, well, night and day. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 In article <1182992335.878074.202990@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jun 28, 1:10 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <f5u2fa$im...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > Jason wrote: > > > > In article <f5j9aa$nq...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Jason wrote: > > > >>> In article <1182559237.898964.32...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > >>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>> On Jun 23, 2:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >>>>> In article <dgtn73hm11dl8eval8ne1s1155rl2td...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > >>>>> <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >>>>>> What scientific facts can they teach about Intelligent Design? > > > >>>>> They have a textbook. The teachers would use the text book and > > curriculum > > > >>>>> guide to teach those classes. > > > >>>> You didn't answer the question, Jason. > > > > > >>>> Martin > > > >>> Martin, > > > >>> I don't have a copy of the textbook or curriculum guide so don't know what > > > >>> sort of facts are in that textbook and curriculum guide. > > > >> Again, you didn't answer the question, Jason. It was "what scientific > > > >> facts can they teach about ID?" and NOT "what scientific facts are > > > >> contained in a specific book?" > > > > > >> If ID is scientific, then there should be some specific scientific facts > > > >> that can be taught about it. What are some of them? > > > > > > Regardless, I don't know what scientific facts ID has. > > > > > Then how do you know it's scientific? > > > > > Try visiting their > > > > website. > > > > > I don't need to. > > > > > > You never did answer my question. > > > > > Yes, I did and no, you didn't. > > > > > You mentioned all of the research that > > > > has been done on that cluster of cells. What sort of creature evolved from > > > > that cluster of cells? > > > > > All the creatures that you see around you. > > > > Please tell me about an experiment where a cluster of cells evolved into a > > life form. > > When your parents chose to have you, Jason, they performed an > experiment in which they gave birth to a life form that had originally > evolved from a mere cluster of cells. > > Martin I was discussing a lab experiment. Quote
Guest Doug Meredith Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> So what happened, God thought they were going to die, brought them to >> heaven and realized he was wrong? >> >> Doug > >No--they all learned something from their experiences and that was >probably the reason that God allowed it or perhaps caused it to happen. Interesting how God only allows magical things to happen when there is nobody there to witness it. Doug Quote
Guest John Popelish Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Free Lunch wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:08:35 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-2706071808350001@66-52-22-70.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> In article <Gr2dnTUtqYqunh7bnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, John Popelish >> <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote: >> >>> Jason wrote: >>> (snip) >>>> Yes, a creationist school board and evolutionist both have agendas. >>> I agree. How about taking a stab at summarizing what you >>> thing each of those agendas is about. >> One group wants to teach ID and evolution to the children. >> One group wants to teach only evolution to the the children. >> > Why would you want to teach lies to children? Oh! Let me try. Because they are comforting and familiar lies that he and other believers have built their entire understanding of reality upon, since childhood. And nothing is more reassuring, when your mind is built on a foundation of lies, than to have lots of people all around you who believe the same lies that you believe. How did I do, Jason? Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 On Jun 28, 5:03 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <NVzgi.2269$K9.1...@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" > <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-2706071042260001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <k3m4839mgss0cijljuel3pm2nk3jonl...@4ax.com>, Matt Silberstein > > > <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:16:11 -0700, in alt.atheism , J...@nospam.com > > >> (Jason) in > > >> <Jason-2606072216110...@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: > > > >> >In article <fqp3839gge41v4q43tmsag4qdme6g95...@4ax.com>, Matt > > >> >Silberstein > > >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:12:36 -0700, in alt.atheism , J...@nospam.com > > >> >> (Jason) in > > >> >> <Jason-2606072112370...@66-52-22-64.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> wrote: > > > >> >> >In article <vfk383lau8cr3oq9f2kglqucrlkn8mg...@4ax.com>, Matt > > >> >> >Silberstein > > >> >> ><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:49:32 -0700, in alt.atheism , > > >> >> >> J...@nospam.com > > >> >> >> (Jason) in > > >> >> >> <Jason-2606071749330...@66-52-22-20.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net> > > >> >> >> wrote: > > > >> >> >> [snip] > > > >> >> >> >The poll indicated that over 60% of the people that live in Ohio > > >> >> >> >wanted > > >> >> >> >both ID and evolution be taught in the public schools. > > > >> >> >> What if 60% wanted separate schools for blacks and whites? > > > >> >> >It would be illegal for a school board to do that. > > > >> >> And it was illegal for the school board to put ID into the curriculum. > > > >> >> I suggest you go and look up the history of complaint about > > >> >> legislation from the bench. They started in the '50s pretty much with > > >> >> Brown v Topeka Board of Education. When people complained about the > > >> >> Court making law what they specifically meant was when the Court ruled > > >> >> that separate but "equal" schools were illegal. > > > >> >Yes, we studied that case while I was in college. I understand your > > >> >point. > > >> >The ID people should have done a better job in making sure they had no > > >> >religion mixed in--they failed. Perhaps they will do a better job the > > >> >next > > >> >time. > > > >> How? I mean that. ID is religion, you admit over and over that your > > >> motives and goals are religious in nature and that your source > > >> material is religious. ID is religion and any attempt by its > > >> supporters to say otherwise is just lying. Do you support lying to > > >> promote Christianity? > > > > Matt, > > > Yes, you are correct. However, the people in the ID movement could arrange > > > to do it in such a way that no court could find any evidence of religion. > > > They tried to do it in the Dover case but they failed. Perhaps they will > > > never succeed. > > > Jason > > > They will never succeed because ID contains no science. Religion abounds in > > ID and creation science for one important reason, it is there! > > I agree that religion abounds in ID and creation science. However, if God, > Jesus and scriptures are NEVER mentioned in the text book or curriculum > guide--it seems to me that a judge could not call it religion. For > example, some people believe that astronauts from some other planet came > to this planet millions of years ago and left behind dozens of people; > some plants and some animals. Is that idea based on religion? The answer > is no. The answer is yes, Jason. Scientology is a religion. See http://www.scientology.org/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology Martin Quote
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