Evolution is Just Junk Science

June 30, 2007

In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > > > > Jason wrote:

> > > > > > In article

> > > > > > <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,

> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

> >

> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to bring into

> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry,

> > there are

> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.)

> >

> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details.

They have

> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People".

> >

> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so?

> >

> > > > Because it's the best one.

> >

> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could

> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the

> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part

> > > of the elementary school program.

>

> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a public

> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim students

> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special

> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter that class

> > room. What is your opinion about that public school?

>

> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me

> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in

> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist

> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are

> required to participate in regardless of their religious background.

> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have

> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems

> wanting to do the same thing.

>

> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary

> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary

> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to

> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and

> fiction when they become adults.

>

> Martin

The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim

students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer

sessions?

If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian

student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free

32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and

Creation"?

Jason

June 30, 2007

On Jun 30, 1:10 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <1183178579.174328.269...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>

> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > > > > > Jason wrote:

> > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,

> > > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

>

> > > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to bring into

> > > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry,

> > > there are

> > > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.)

>

> > > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details.

> They have

> > > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People".

>

> > > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so?

>

> > > > > Because it's the best one.

>

> > > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could

> > > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the

> > > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part

> > > > of the elementary school program.

>

> > > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a public

> > > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim students

> > > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special

> > > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter that class

> > > room. What is your opinion about that public school?

>

> > I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me

> > that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in

> > this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist

> > that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are

> > required to participate in regardless of their religious background.

> > Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have

> > no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems

> > wanting to do the same thing.

>

> > As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary

> > school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary

> > school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to

> > get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and

> > fiction when they become adults.

> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim

> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer

> sessions?

Public schools are secular schools, Jason. I answered your question.

Please learn to read.

> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian

> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free

> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and

> Creation"?

Of course not. I wouldn't allow a student to bring a gun into class

and start shooting either.

Martin

June 30, 2007

In article <1183180391.828369.198330@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jun 30, 1:10 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > In article <1183178579.174328.269...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> >

> > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > In article

<1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > > > > > > Jason wrote:

> > > > > > > > In article

> > > > > > > >

<DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,

> > > > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

> >

> > > > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to

bring into

> > > > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry,

> > > > there are

> > > > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.)

> >

> > > > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details.

> > They have

> > > > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People".

> >

> > > > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so?

> >

> > > > > > Because it's the best one.

> >

> > > > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could

> > > > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the

> > > > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part

> > > > > of the elementary school program.

> >

> > > > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about

a public

> > > > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim

students

> > > > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special

> > > > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter

that class

> > > > room. What is your opinion about that public school?

> >

> > > I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me

> > > that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in

> > > this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist

> > > that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are

> > > required to participate in regardless of their religious background.

> > > Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have

> > > no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems

> > > wanting to do the same thing.

> >

> > > As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary

> > > school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary

> > > school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to

> > > get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and

> > > fiction when they become adults.

>

> > The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim

> > students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer

> > sessions?

>

> Public schools are secular schools, Jason. I answered your question.

> Please learn to read.

>

> > If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian

> > student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free

> > 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and

> > Creation"?

>

> Of course not. I wouldn't allow a student to bring a gun into class

> and start shooting either.

>

> Martin

As per the current laws, Public Schools should not allow Muslim students,

Jewish Students or Christian students to have special recesses for group

prayer meetings or girls only classes for religious reasons.

Christians grade school students and High School Students have a national

program called "Meet Me At the Pole". Prior to the first class of the day,

they form a circle around the flag pole and have a prayer meeting. No

teachers or school staff members are involved.

I don't believe that program is a violation of the law since no staff

members of the school are involved.

I don't believe it would be a violation of the law for students to pass

out Christian booklets to fellow students at recess or in the school

cafeteria as long as staff members employed by the school are not

involved.

Jason

June 30, 2007

On 29 Jun., 12:42, Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 29, 8:11 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> > The best decision that the advocates of evolution ever made

> > was to disassociate with the advocates of abiogenesis.

>

> And yet you yourself agree that abiogenesis happened, except that you

> claim your god did it.

>

> > There is NO evidence to indicate that life evolved from non-life

> > in a primordial soup.

>

> Amazing. This has been posted almost twenty times now so you couldn't

> have missed it.

He didn't.

>

> In 1953, the Miller-Uley experiment showed that amino acids could

> form

> spontaneously from elements present in the "primorial soup". (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) Other

> experiments showed that bilipid membranes can form spontaneously.

> (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_bilayer) Sidney Fox's

> research showed that amino acids can spontaneously form protein

> chains. (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_W._Fox) Protein

> chains can then guide the formation of RNA chains just as RNA chains

> are known to guide the formation of protein chains. (Seehttp://www.hhmi.org/news/lindquist2.html). German scientists have

> already produced molecules in the laboratory that are capable of

> reproducing themselves and are therefore alive. (Seehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/217054.stm).

>

> Primative cells would have formed as a way to prevent the contents of

> the cell from drying out. (Seehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/239787.stm

> ). The simplest cells would have been prokaryote cells (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote) which would have been the

> ancestors of modern bacteria and archaea while more advanced

> eukaryotic cells (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryotic) would

> have been the ancestors of modern animal, plant and fungis cells.

> Eukaryotic cells could have formed through a process known as viral

> eukaryogenesis (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis

> ) in which a virus forms an endosymbiosic relationship with a host

> prokaryote cell. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

> ) Mitochondria and plastids are also believed to have arisen as a

> result of endosymbiosis, the evidence being that mitochondria and

> plastids share characteristics with bacteria cells, the only

> difference being that they cannot survive independent of the rest of

> the cell, but that's fine because human cells cannot survive

> independent of the rest of the body either. In both cases, the parts

> have evolved to depend on the whole.

>

> See alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Major_Transitions_in_Evolution

> which has links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexandhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_multicellularity

>

> Martin

June 30, 2007

On 29 Jun., 17:09, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:

> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com>

>

> snip

>

> > If people choose not to believe the information in the Bible, that is

> > their choice. According to the Time Almanac (2005), 1.9 billion people are

> > Christians so they do believe the information in the Bible.

>

> So? That doesn't make it true.

> --

> Robyn

> Resident Witchypoo

> BAAWA Knight!

> #1557

Not to mention the fact that only a minority are Bible literalists,

i.e. most do not believe the information in the Bible.

June 30, 2007

On 29 Jun., 19:20, "Ralph" <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Mike" <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message

>

> news:f63eh0$3v5$1@news04.infoave.net...

>

> > Jason wrote:

> >> In article <f60utd$h1...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> >> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

>

> >>> Jason wrote:

> >>>> In article <f608fq$pr...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> >>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

>

> >>>>> Jason wrote:

> >>>>>> In article <f5tl6k$53...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> >>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

>

> >>>>>>> Jason wrote:

> >>>>>>>> In article <1182914771.873163.36...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> >> Martin

> >>>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>

> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 2:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> >>>>>>>>>> Why is there a symbol of a crescent moon on top of every Muslim

> >>>> mosque in

> >>>>>>>>>> the world?

> >>>>>>>>> Why does a halo appear on the head of every saint in pictures?

> >>>>>>>>> Why

> >>>>>>>>> does sun symbolism continue to the present day on robes, banners,

> >>>>>>>>> icons, behind the cross in a ray of light, flames coming from the

> >>>>>>>>> heart of Jesus, etc.? Who do priests bow and kiss a monstrance

> >>>>>>>>> which

> >>>>>>>>> is a gold statue of the sun on a pedestal during processions? Why

> >>>>>>>>> do

> >>>>>>>>> Christians go to church on Sunday when the old testament claimed

> >>>>>>>>> that

> >>>>>>>>> Jesus would rise after three days, ie three days after Friday and

> >>>>>>>>> therefore on Monday?

>

> >>>>>>>>> Answer the damn questions, Jason.

>

> >>>>>>>>> Martin

> >>>>>>>> I am not a Catholic so as a result have never done any research

> >> regarding

> >>>>>>>> Catholics. I don't why artists painted halos on the heads of

> >>>>>>>> saints.

> >>>>>>>> Perhaps it was part of the culture or a rule established by a Pope.

> >>>>>>>> You

> >>>>>>>> may want to visit the art department and ask that question to the

> >>>>>>>> professor that teaches courses related to the history of art. I

> >>>>>>>> suggest

> >>>>>>>> that you visit Wikipedia and type "Easter Sunday". It clearly

> >> states that

> >>>>>>>> Christ rose from the dead on Sunday.

> >>>>>>> And yet your bible clearly says he would rise after THREE days.

>

> >>>>>>> Where's the 3rd day, Jason? Do you now believe wikipedia over your

> >>>>>>> own bible?

> >>>>>> The deciples worshipped on Sunday. They knew more about the time

> >>>>>> aspects

> >>>>>> than we know today since they were witnesses.

> >>>>> So was there some kind of "old math" in place? 3 days would be more

> >>>>> than 48 hours. From Friday evening to Sunday morning was only 36 or so

> >>>>> hours. So did Jesus lie or did the disciples? (this isn't an essay

> >>>>> question. It's a question answered only by either "Jesus" or "the

> >>>>> disciples.")

> >>>> Yes, only the witnesses could properly answer the question. Any answers

> >>>> that I gave would only be guesses. The disciples worshipped on Sunday

> >>>> so

> >>>> that is good enough for the millions of people that worship on Sunday.

> >>> Like I said, it's not an essay question. You have a choice; Jesus lied

> >>> or the disciples lied. Which was it?

>

> >>> > Perhaps you could explain why people that don't believe in Jesus are

> >>> > so concerned about how many days Jesus remained in the tomb.

>

> >>> Perhaps you can tell us why you can't answer a simple question?

>

> >> The answer: I don't believe that Jesus or the disciples lied.

>

> > Then you believe two contradictory things.

>

> > Jesus said "3 days and 3 nights." The disciples said "less than 48 hours."

> > Three days and 3 nights would have to be more than 48 hours. It's simple

> > math (oh, wait, I forgot how boring math is to you.)

>

> I've yet to see the Christian who doesn't believe in contradictory things..- Skjul tekst i anf

June 30, 2007

On 29 Jun., 19:58, John Baker <n...@bizniz.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:45:12 -0700, 655321

>

> <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

> >In article

> ><Jason-2806072223150...@66-52-22-36.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,

> > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> >> In article

> >> <DipthotDipthot-68E504.20110728062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,

> >> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

>

> >> > In article

> >> > <Jason-2806071935400...@66-52-22-115.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,

> >> > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> >> > > Based on what I have read, the IDers really screwed up in the Dover case.

> >> > > Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes.

>

> >> > The screwed up by trying to argue it. Their case was indefensible on

> >> > its face.

>

> >> > This is the classic "we wuz robbed" defense made by the losing team.

> >> > The wind was blowing in our faces; our place-kicker missed that crucial

> >> > field goal; the ref blew a call.

>

> >> > Only thing is, the game was a blowout. Not even close.

>

> >> Perhaps it will be different during the next court case.

>

> >Put more dummies on the bench, and you may be right. You know, Reagan

> >once tried to argue that ketchup was a vegetable, and some people

> >believed him, too.

>

> Probably the same ones who voted for him in the first place... <G>- Skjul tekst i anf

June 30, 2007

On Jun 30, 1:25 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <1183180391.828369.198...@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>

> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Jun 30, 1:10 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > In article <1183178579.174328.269...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>

> > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > > In article

>

> <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin> > > > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> > > > > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > > > > > > > Jason wrote:

> > > > > > > > > In article

>

> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,

>

> > > > > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote:

>

> > > > > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to

> bring into

> > > > > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry,

> > > > > there are

> > > > > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.)

>

> > > > > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details.

> > > They have

> > > > > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People".

>

> > > > > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so?

>

> > > > > > > Because it's the best one.

>

> > > > > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could

> > > > > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the

> > > > > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part

> > > > > > of the elementary school program.

>

> > > > > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about

> a public

> > > > > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim

> students

> > > > > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special

> > > > > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter

> that class

> > > > > room. What is your opinion about that public school?

>

> > > > I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me

> > > > that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in

> > > > this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist

> > > > that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are

> > > > required to participate in regardless of their religious background.

> > > > Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have

> > > > no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems

> > > > wanting to do the same thing.

>

> > > > As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary

> > > > school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary

> > > > school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to

> > > > get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and

> > > > fiction when they become adults.

>

> > > The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim

> > > students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer

> > > sessions?

>

> > Public schools are secular schools, Jason. I answered your question.

> > Please learn to read.

>

> > > If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian

> > > student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free

> > > 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and

> > > Creation"?

>

> > Of course not. I wouldn't allow a student to bring a gun into class

> > and start shooting either.

> As per the current laws, Public Schools should not allow Muslim students,

> Jewish Students or Christian students to have special recesses for group

> prayer meetings or girls only classes for religious reasons.

Not true. The question is whether teachers are leading the classes or

students are required to be involved. For example, all schools allow

club activities.

> Christians grade school students and High School Students have a national

> program called "Meet Me At the Pole". Prior to the first class of the day,

> they form a circle around the flag pole and have a prayer meeting. No

> teachers or school staff members are involved.

Then why can't Moslem students enjoy the same rights. I'm the one

being consistent, Jason. You are not.

> I don't believe that program is a violation of the law since no staff

> members of the school are involved.

>

> I don't believe it would be a violation of the law for students to pass

> out Christian booklets to fellow students at recess or in the school

> cafeteria as long as staff members employed by the school are not

> involved.

He's disturbing the class. Let him do that somewhere other than in

the classroom and when the students are supposed to be actually

learning something. The teacher in the class has both the right and

the obligation to tell the student in question to get out of his

class.

Martin

June 30, 2007

In article <nai983h7frhfr6kddnhkm21qhoe9a1700g@4ax.com>,

Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:44:09 -0700, johac

> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> - Refer: <jhachmann-476633.15440928062007@news.giganews.com>

> >In article <740783hjnp1rl69hncffbem3j5p90ls05v@4ax.com>,

> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >

> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:17:50 -0700, johac

> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>,

> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message

> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com...

> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac

> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >> >>In article

> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,

> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >> >> >>>

> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > snip

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true

> >> >> >>> > > God.

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one?

> >> >> >>>

> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject.

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the true

> >> >> >>god?

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Of course.

> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any time!

> >> >>

> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could

> >> >> give

> >> >> Zeus a run for his money

> >> >

> >> >I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them

> >> >fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a

> >> >divine bum fight. :-)

> >>

> >> Is that "bum" as in "vagrant", or "bum" as in "derriere"?

> >

> >Vagrants. A few years back some idiots in this country were paying

> >homeless people to fight each other while being taped. The would sell

> >the tapes to bigger idiots who got off watching such violence.

>

> The Police will watch anything...

Yep. They may have been the ones doing the taping.

>

> --

--

John #1782

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be

white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.

June 30, 2007

In article <5ekj7bF398uh2U1@mid.individual.net>,

"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

> news:jhachmann-5CD649.15412328062007@news.giganews.com...

> > In article <5ehujiF385pl0U1@mid.individual.net>,

> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >

> >> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

> >> news:jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com...

> >> > In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>,

> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message

> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com...

> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac

> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >> >>In article

> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,

> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >> >> >>>

> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > snip

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true

> >> >> >>> > > God.

> >> >> >>> >

> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one?

> >> >> >>>

> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject.

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the

> >> >> >>true

> >> >> >>god?

> >> >> >

> >> >> > Of course.

> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any

> >> >> > time!

> >> >>

> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could

> >> >> give

> >> >> Zeus a run for his money

> >> >

> >> > I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them

> >> > fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a

> >> > divine bum fight. :-)

> >>

> >> LOL! Diety Death Match? Who knows how to do claymation?

> >

> > LOL! I wish I knew how! I'd love to put something like that on YouTube.

> > :-)

>

> That would be hilarious

Heh! Heh! Tag team. Yaweh and Baal vs. Zeus and The FSM. :-)

--

John #1782

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be

white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.

June 30, 2007

In article <l9i98398eq27mk50i9r50s7rob28epstj7@4ax.com>,

Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:39:20 -0700, johac

> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> - Refer: <jhachmann-10F8C1.15392028062007@news.giganews.com>

> >In article <h1078311ckh892ma7qpjl56v0h105p40qu@4ax.com>,

> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >

> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:19:06 -0700, johac

> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-E4FD13.16190627062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >In article <dc648397hljrpucad3mdd3d8ub31lmd1gq@4ax.com>,

> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:15:52 -0700, johac

> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-DB11DE.22155226062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >> >In article <1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com>,

> >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >> >> >

> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac

> >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com>

> >> >> >> >In article

> >> >> >> ><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>,

> >> >> >> > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

> >> >> >> >> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> >> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> >> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

> >> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> > snip

> >> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true

> >> >> >> >> > > God.

> >> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> > What makes your god the "true" one?

> >> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> >> Books have been written on that subject.

> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the

> >> >> >> >true

> >> >> >> >god?

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >> Of course.

> >> >> >> The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any

> >> >> >> time!

> >> >> >>

> >> >> >

> >> >> >With one thunderbolt tied behind his back. So could Odin.

> >> >>

> >> >> Odin is feeling a little thor at the moment...

> >> >>

> >> >

> >> >Thor's kid? He should be careful. He could get hammered.

> >>

> >> His dad could drink an ocean, apparently, just on a bet.

> >> I imagine that the tyke will inherit his old man's capacity...

> >

> >I wouldn't want to get into a drinking contest with him.

>

> Heaven forbid!

But Satan says: "What the hell. Why not?"

>

> --

--

John #1782

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be

white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.

June 30, 2007

On 30 Jun 2007 00:09:51 GMT, "Dan Drake" <dd@dandrake.com> wrote:

- Refer: <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-C4s9VpyRZTdH@M>

>On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:40:34 UTC, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>

>wrote:

>

>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:55:44 -0400, Mike <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com>

>> wrote:

>> - Refer: <f5rcu0$p8o$1@news04.infoave.net>

>> >Michael Gray wrote:

>> >> I managed to complete my entire Computer Sciewnce degree using IBM

>> >> punched cards! (With 12 hour turnaround!)

>> >> I remember having a subroutine that amounted to three of those 2 foot

>> >> long boxes of cards, and dropping one of them on the way to the

>> >> counter, shuffling its entire contents down the hallway.

>> >> I nearly cried.

>> >

>> >You didn't number them????????????

>>

>> I did, but only AFTER that!

>> Ah, columns 73-80 became very overused.

>> But, wouldn't you know it?

>> I did not drop a deck after that!

>>...

>

>Well, duh! DIdn't anyone tell you that the real reason for marking the

>deck [oops, dangerous choice of phrase] was as a spell that would prevent

>it from being dropped in the future?

I made many a libation to the Gods of the Computer in the University

Bar.

I think that is what did the job!

(Oh "Job cards"! Do you remember them?)

--

June 30, 2007

On 26 jun, 19:36, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <5eclp9F37r3k...@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

> > > Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

>

> > If a fool can figure it out, what's your problem?

>

> My interpretation is difference:

> Only fools believe there is not God.

Why? I never met any god whatever. All our knowledge comes from

reality. I never experienced any contact with a god. Only some

people tells about it. It made me recall those nuts that speak about

ovnis, and abductions.

If I were to believe in god, I have some reason to ask, "which god?"

Why I should choose a particular god and not another?

So, this stupid phrase, "The fool hath said in his heart there is no

God." it is only acceptable if we know from whom it comes. And it

comes from people that is living out of duping people.

So, I can see it is full of sense. If I were selling cars I would not

tell a propective customer, "this particular car we are selling is a

shit of a car. Better you go elsewhare to buy a good one, a different

make.

Bramble

June 30, 2007

> On Jun 30, 4:26 am, James Norris <JimNorri...@aol.com> wrote:

>

> > On Jun 30, 3:25?am, someone2 <glenn.spig...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > > On Jun 30, 1:55 am, James Norris <JimNorri...@aol.com> wrote:

>

> > > Design for a Conscious Mechanoid

>

> > > [Just to deter the predictable 'define what you mean by conscious'

> > > posting: 'Conscious' means 'aware of reality' - a human being is

> > > conscious, but a piece of paper is not conscious. If there is still a

> > > problem with understanding the word 'conscious', try using a

> > > dictionary.]

>

> > > Start off with millions of identical ordinary (non-conscious) robots.

> > > Each robot is pre-programmed to collect things from the environment at

> > > random (twigs, elastic bands, teadcups, wheels, orange peel etc), and

> > > incorporate them into itself, gradually replacing all its original

> > > component parts as it does so. Now let the robots free to interact

> > > with the environment, and watch what happens.

>

> > > Most of the robots would cease to function quite rapidly, of course.

> > > They might replace one of their vital components (the computer

> > > program, for example), with a piece of orange peel and immediately

> > > stop working permanently. Some might continue to function for quite a

> > > while, making meaningless minor alterations to their original

> > > structure, without affecting their basic operation as a programmed

> > > mechanical device, which we knew to be non-conscious. We can ignore

> > > robots which have replaced themselves with biological material which

> > > was already conscious, because that is obviously not what we are

> > > interested in.

>

> > > The robots we are interested in are those which manage to replace all

> > > their constituent components, including their original computer

> > > hardware and software, but are still functioning. They, like

> > > ourselves, have been created out of material from the environment, so

> > > they might be conscious, as we are.

>

> > > A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and this

> > > could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the

> > > elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could

> > > easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought.

> > > For that to happen by chance is extremely unlikely of course, as is

> > > the likelihood of millions of monkeys randomly operating typewriters

> > > producing the occasional Shakespeare sonnet by chance, but if you left

> > > them long enough, they would eventually do it!

>

> > > Consciousness is a subjective experience, so there is no way of

> > > determining whether or not anything or anybody is conscious. In the

> > > design above, the construction allows the possibility that

> > > consciousness might occur in a device which was originally non-

> > > conscious. The random self-modifying behaviour may have led to a

> > > wheeled mechanism made out of orange peel, teacups and elastic bands

> > > held together with bits of wood, with its understanding of reality

> > > contained in the vibrational processes occurring in the twig-twanged

> > > elastic bands, which wanders around in the natural environment

> > > apparently decorating itself with the bits of garbage it picks up.

> > > Perhaps the device has improved on its original design and is now

> > > conscious? At any rate, it certainly wouldn't be less conscious than

> > > it was to begin with.

>

> > > James Norris

>

> > > > > > I read your thread. Was it a satirical portrayal of atheist

> > > > > > "reasoning"?

>

> > > > > No, it was a design for a conscious entity, neither biological nor

> > > > > computer-based.

>

> > > > > > I especially liked the bit:

>

> > > > > > "A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and

> > > > > > this could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the

> > > > > > elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could

> > > > > > easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought."

>

> > > > > > You could imagine atheists setting themselves up as authorities on

> > > > > > which tunes played on a guitar gave rise to consciousness, and whether

> > > > > > one string, or all the strings, or the whole guitar had the

> > > > > > experiences. They could debate on to what extent they could

> > > > > > anthropomorphise the conscious experience a certain song gave.

>

> > > > > The notion of vibrations carrying information was an example of how

> > > > > the necessary complexity for 'thoughts' might arise in the mechanism.

> > > > > I understand from your earlier postings that you believe that human

> > > > > beings have a non-physical 'soul', so I'm not sure why you think my

> > > > > suggestion is so laughable.

>

> > > > > > Though the part where you said, "consciousness is a subjective

> > > > > > experience, so there is no way of determining whether or not anything

> > > > > > or anybody is conscious", did illustrate that from an atheist

> > > > > > perspective there would be no experimental difference expected whether

> > > > > > something was or wasn't consciously experiencing, which is something a

> > > > > > few of them here are having problems coming to terms with.

>

> > > > > I don't know why you pick on atheists in particular as having a

> > > > > problem with the unverifiability of subjective experiences, but

> > > > > anyway, perhaps many of us do - I personally don't.

>

> > > > > > Still, very amusing, assuming of course you weren't being serious, and

> > > > > > an absolute nutter.

>

> > > > > An absolute nutter in your opinion might be someone who believed that

> > > > > they had four souls, rather than just the one, I suppose.

>

> > > > > The Design for a Conscious Mechanoid is quite serious - a hypothetical

> > > > > example of how a constructed 'mechanical' (ie non-biological) being

> > > > > might be conscious. I'm not suggesting that it would ever work in

> > > > > reality, any more than that a million monkeys typing on a million

> > > > > typewriters for a million years to produce the works of Shakespeare

> > > > > would ever work in reality. The example draws attention to the

> > > > > salient aspects of an interesting question. I'm glad you found it

> > > > > amusing though. I always try to make my postings interesting and

> > > > > memorable, and humour is a well-known didactic tool.

>

> > > > The problem with no experimental difference expected whether something

> > > > was or wasn't consciously experiencing, is that it means whether it

> > > > was or wasn't, couldn't be thought to influence behaviour. If that was

> > > > the case, it would have to be a coincidence that our behaviour

> > > > expressed the conscious experiences we actually have (it couldn't have

> > > > been influenced by their existance).

>

> > > You are trying to discuss consciousness using behavioural concepts.

> > > The behavioural understanding of the psyche has little to say about

> > > consciousness - the brain reacts to external stimuli and produces

> > > behaviour in the organism, which is studied to give an understanding

> > > of the workings of the brain. Cognitive models of consciousness,

> > > which you should look into as they might help you express your

> > > argument, are inside-out compared to the behavioural viewpoint. The

> > > 'mind' (which is believed to exist because of processes occurring in

> > > the brain) is considered as an Ego, with Superego, Id and various

> > > other paraphernalia, and these all contribute to goal-directed

> > > behaviour caused by subjective 'needs' which the conscious being tries

> > > to satisfy.

>

> > > > Anyway, interesting post. So have you any thoughts on which tunes

> > > > played on a guitar might be give rise to, the string(s) or the guitar

> > > > thinking? Any thoughts on what those thoughts might be? I ask you, as

> > > > I guess you would be the closest thing to a world authority on the

> > > > concept, or have you got competition?

>

> > No, you haven't really grasped the point about the vibrations in the

> > example. I was just pointing out that a certain amount of complexity

> > is required for consciousness, so complexity is needed somewhere in

> > the mechanoid. Vibrating systems can contain information of arbitrary

> > complexity - they don't have to be made out of physical elastic

> > bands. Vibrations occur in strings in general, these could be the

> > theoretical strings of string-theory, or hair-like cilia made from

> > millions of tiny pinheads all oscillating in a plasma field, if you

> > think elastic bands are too primitive a device to be worth

> > considering. Some people think that Mobius strips are weirdly clever

> > - perhaps if millions of elastic bands were Mobius strips interacting

> > in a complex 3-d lattice, with carefully placed twigs and twiglets to

> > provide the necessary resonance and feedback effects, it would be

> > rather more likely to have the necessary complexity for conscious

> > awareness of reality, than using just the one guitar string that you

> > suggest?

>

Discuss.

June 30, 2007

On Jun 30, 2:59?am, Martin <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 30, 4:23 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > In article <f63of0$e3...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

>

> > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > > Jason wrote:

> > > > I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions:

>

> > > > Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any

> > > > involvement of god? yes or no

>

> > > > Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught

> > > > in the public schools or just evolution?

>

> > > Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no

> > > scientific backing?

>

> > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence

> > as scientific backing.

>

> Again, show us a fossil of your god or stop lying.

>

> Martin- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -