Guest Ralph Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-3006071244410001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <kYudnS9H6t6ZMBvbnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@sti.net>, "David V." > <spam@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> > >> > That is not true. I read "Evolution: The Fossils Still Say No" >> > by Dr. D.T. Gish. >> >> Gish is a known liar. His arguments anti-evolution tirades are >> based on out of date science, ignorance, and outright fraud. He >> has published in many biochemistry journals, but all have been on >> that subject. He has not published on paper in any journal that >> would cause anyone to question the fact of evolution. He has >> published books, but anyone can publish a book and say whatever >> they want. Being published doesn't make it true. > > I respect Dr. Gish. I was present when he debated a science professor > at the local state university. Then you are to be pitied. Others have shown you how he lies and you ignore it. Thus, your respect means absolutely nothing. Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:44:41 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071244410001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <kYudnS9H6t6ZMBvbnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@sti.net>, "David V." ><spam@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> > >> > That is not true. I read "Evolution: The Fossils Still Say No" >> > by Dr. D.T. Gish. >> >> Gish is a known liar. His arguments anti-evolution tirades are >> based on out of date science, ignorance, and outright fraud. He >> has published in many biochemistry journals, but all have been on >> that subject. He has not published on paper in any journal that >> would cause anyone to question the fact of evolution. He has >> published books, but anyone can publish a book and say whatever >> they want. Being published doesn't make it true. > >I respect Dr. Gish. That makes you a fool. The evidence is overwhelming that Gish is a liar and a fraud. He's making money from the credulousness of you and people like you. >I was present when he debated a science professor >at the local state university. So what. He lied there. He always lies in those 'debates'. He is not a Christian by any reasonable standard. He is a conman who is stealing money from Christians under false pretenses. Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>>>> >>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >>>>> >>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught >>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >>>> scientific backing? >>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence >>> as scientific backing. >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >> >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >> >> There have been two books written related to fossil >>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >> supports evolution. >> >> Dr. Steven >>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >> And this supports creationism how? > > Mike, > Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > backing? The answer is no. Well, that part didn't answer my question. That is the reason that I don't believe that > abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design should > be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. Well, that part didn't answer my question. When I > was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught > our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a > student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to > indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. Well, that part didn't answer my question. > Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence > supports creation science and Intelligent Design. Yes, you already claimed that. Now explain HOW it supports it. The result is ongoing > and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his > research findings. So you just mysteriously know what his findings are? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >Martin > >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: > >> >> > > > > > In article > >> >> > > > > > > ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > >bring into > >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry, > >> >> > there are > >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. > >> >They have > >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". > >> >> > > >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >> >> > > >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. > >> >> > > >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could > >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the > >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part > >> >> > > of the elementary school program. > >> >> > >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > >public > >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim students > >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special > >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter that class > >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >> >> > >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist > >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. > >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have > >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >> >> wanting to do the same thing. > >> >> > >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary > >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and > >> >> fiction when they become adults. > >> >> > >> >> Martin > >> > > >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim > >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer > >> >sessions? > >> > >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for > >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to > >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >> prove that your religion isn't false. > >> > >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian > >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free > >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >> >Creation"? > >> > >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't > >> want to acknowledge that. > >> > >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > > > >Good points: > >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >taught Intelligent Design? > > You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same > thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any > Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called > Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on > lies being taught by religious sects. > > As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and > everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific > evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is > just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? Jason Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> > >> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> >In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >> >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> >Martin >> >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > In article >> >> >> > > > > > >> ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >> >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >> >bring into >> >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't >worry, >> >> >> > there are >> >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. >> >> >They have >> >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could >> >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from >around the >> >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part >> >> >> > > of the elementary school program. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >> >public >> >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim >students >> >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special >> >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter >that class >> >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? >> >> >> >> >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >> >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >> >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >> >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >> >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >> >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have >> >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >> >> >> wanting to do the same thing. >> >> >> >> >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >> >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >> >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >> >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >> >> >> fiction when they become adults. >> >> >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> > >> >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim >> >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >> >> >sessions? >> >> >> >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >> >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >> >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >> >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >> >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >> >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >> >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >> >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >> >> prove that your religion isn't false. >> >> >> >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >> >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free >> >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >> >> >Creation"? >> >> >> >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >> >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >> >> want to acknowledge that. >> >> >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >> > >> >Good points: >> >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >> >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >> >taught Intelligent Design? >> >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >> lies being taught by religious sects. >> >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > >Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >Jason > It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just because they are Moslems. Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already accommodate Christians? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <f66bru$25j$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <f65jlb$9o8$2@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> In article <f63pn1$fka$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >>> Because it's the best one. > >> Why? What science backs it up? We're still waiting for an answer. > > > > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting > > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and > > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > Non-answer. Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > > >>>> No, they could cover it in 2 seconds: "Goddidit." > >>> That's illegal to say in a public school classroom. The teachers would > >>> have to say that an Intelligent Designer done it. > >> And this intelligent designer is who? God. "A pile of male bovine > >> excrement by any other name would still be bullshit." > >> > >> When the teachers > >>> covered evolution, the teachers would have to say, "Life evolved from > >>> non-life". > >> No, they wouldn't, because it's not true. Life FORMED from non-life; it > >> didn't evolve from it (and even you agreed that life formed from non-life.) > > No response? What was the question? Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:57:51 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071257520001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <f66bru$25j$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike ><prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> > In article <f65jlb$9o8$2@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Jason wrote: >> >>> In article <f63pn1$fka$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >> >>> Because it's the best one. >> >> Why? What science backs it up? We're still waiting for an answer. >> > >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. >> >> Non-answer. > >Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the results of the research can be tested. Books are not. >> >>>> No, they could cover it in 2 seconds: "Goddidit." >> >>> That's illegal to say in a public school classroom. The teachers would >> >>> have to say that an Intelligent Designer done it. >> >> And this intelligent designer is who? God. "A pile of male bovine >> >> excrement by any other name would still be bullshit." >> >> >> >> When the teachers >> >>> covered evolution, the teachers would have to say, "Life evolved from >> >>> non-life". >> >> No, they wouldn't, because it's not true. Life FORMED from non-life; it >> >> didn't evolve from it (and even you agreed that life formed from non-life.) >> >> No response? > >What was the question? Why do you keep arguing about things that you refuse to understand? Quote
Guest 655321 Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <Jason-2906071048220001@66-52-22-46.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Various posters have told me that > there is evidence of life evolving from non-life. There is such evidence. My understanding is that it's not complete and comprehensive, but it's enough to generate scientific theories on. ID on the other hand, has nothing on which to base any scientific theories. You, of course take the unscientific position that not only are the ID guesses correct, but that the Bible is an accurate representation of what happened. The DI won't even say that. The DI won't even talk about Jesus, and he was supposedly around not all that long ago in the grand scheme of things. -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <fhcd83hslea85mb43dpgduube8vrn7fv3e@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:47:48 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-3006071147490001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > ><prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >> > In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Jason wrote: > >> >>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: > >> >>> > >> >>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any > >> >>> involvement of god? yes or no > >> >>> > >> >>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught > >> >>> in the public schools or just evolution? > >> >> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no > >> >> scientific backing? > >> > > >> > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence > >> > as scientific backing. > >> > >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should > >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? > >> > >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. > >> > >> There have been two books written related to fossil > >> > evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. > >> > >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that > >> supports evolution. > >> > >> Dr. Steven > >> > Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research > >> > expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary > >> > processes that form rock strata and fossils. > >> > >> And this supports creationism how? > > > >Mike, > >Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > >backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that > >abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. > > What exactly is taught and what evidence do you have to show that it is > wrong? Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I was taught below. > > >Intelligent Design should > >be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. > > No, it does not. That is a lie that you aren't informed enough to > recognize. You once were just one more victim of ID/Creationism lies, > but now you are one of the liars because you repeat their lies even > after having been corrected. > > >When I > >was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught > >our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a > >student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to > >indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. > > > >Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence > >supports creation science and Intelligent Design. The result is ongoing > >and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his > >research findings. > > God made you stupid. Quote
Guest Mike Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <f65k7k$9o8$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate that >>> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and >>> not evidence. >> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you >> keep repeating this same tired lie? > > One poster indicated that the main evidence that proves that life evolved > from non-life is that we now have life on this planet. He indicated that > PROVED that life evolved from non-life since that was the ONLY way that it > could have happened. No, he didn't, Jason. Please don't lie. Life FORMED from non-life. It didn't EVOLVE from non-life. Repeat after me: "formed" is not the same as "evolved." Keep repeating till it sinks into what you laughingly call a brain. Also, if there was EVER a time when there was no life (and there's definitely a time now when there is) then there's no possible question that life formed from non-life. The ONLY question possible is "what caused it to do so?" When I mentioned that God created mankind; some > plants and some animals Was there life before this creation? If not, then life formed from non-life. Plain and simple. and that Natural Selection kicked in after the > creation process was finished--The poster claimed that he did not believe > in God. I mentioned Erik von Danikan's (spelling??) theory related to > ancient astronauts visiting the earth millions of years ago and leaving > behind dozens of people, many seeds and some animals. He did not believe > that happened. Even if it DID happen, where did those "ancient astronauts" come from? > Several other posters implied or actully stated that the reason life forms > are on this planet is because life evolved from non-life millions of years > ago. When I have mentioned Intelligent Design--various posters have > became angry with me. They have become frustrated with you because you can't/won't support your claim that goddidit. They are convinced that life came to be on this > planet because of abiogenesis. So are you. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <f66c6r$2td$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any > >>>>> involvement of god? yes or no > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught > >>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? > >>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no > >>>> scientific backing? > >>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence > >>> as scientific backing. > >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should > >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? > >> > >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. > >> > >> There have been two books written related to fossil > >>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. > >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that > >> supports evolution. > >> > >> Dr. Steven > >>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research > >>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary > >>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. > >> And this supports creationism how? > > > > Mike, > > Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > > backing? The answer is no. > > Well, that part didn't answer my question. > > That is the reason that I don't believe that > > abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design should > > be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. > > Well, that part didn't answer my question. > > When I > > was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught > > our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a > > student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to > > indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. > > Well, that part didn't answer my question. > > > Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence > > supports creation science and Intelligent Design. > > Yes, you already claimed that. Now explain HOW it supports it. > > The result is ongoing > > and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his > > research findings. > > So you just mysteriously know what his findings are? He has not yet written a book but has written some articles in the ICR newsletter to keep us updated on the progress. He did write one book related to the research that has been done at Mount St. Helens. The title and authors: "Footprints in the Ash" by Dr. John Morris and Dr. Steven A. Austin The book is related to the volcanic eruption at Mount St. Helens. They have taken many research teams to Mount St. Helens. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <r7dd83pu91viqknl2lvli9u36dsgmof6p3@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >> >In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >> >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >> >Martin > >> >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > > In article > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >> >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > >> >bring into > >> >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > >worry, > >> >> >> > there are > >> >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. > >> >> >They have > >> >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could > >> >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from > >around the > >> >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part > >> >> >> > > of the elementary school program. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > >> >public > >> >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > >students > >> >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special > >> >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > >that class > >> >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >> >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >> >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist > >> >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >> >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. > >> >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have > >> >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >> >> >> wanting to do the same thing. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary > >> >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >> >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >> >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and > >> >> >> fiction when they become adults. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Martin > >> >> > > >> >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim > >> >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer > >> >> >sessions? > >> >> > >> >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >> >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for > >> >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >> >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >> >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >> >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >> >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to > >> >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >> >> prove that your religion isn't false. > >> >> > >> >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian > >> >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free > >> >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >> >> >Creation"? > >> >> > >> >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >> >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't > >> >> want to acknowledge that. > >> >> > >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > >> > > >> >Good points: > >> >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > >> >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >> >taught Intelligent Design? > >> > >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same > >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any > >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called > >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on > >> lies being taught by religious sects. > >> > >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and > >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific > >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is > >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > > > >Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > >could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > >recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > >Jason > > > It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such > prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just > because they are Moslems. > > Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already > accommodate Christians? Yes--that is true. Some schools have changed the titles of the holidays so that atheists will not file lawsuits. To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special "Christians only" class. Is the word: reciprocity? Quote
Guest David V. Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 Jason wrote: > > I respect Dr. Gish. Why would you respect a liar? Does he tell lies you want to hear? -- Dave "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 > >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting > >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and > >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > >> Non-answer. >> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it > up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > results of the research can be tested. Books are not. One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed journals. Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <DipthotDipthot-E7D07F.12595930062007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, 655321 <DipthotDipthot@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > In article > <Jason-2906071048220001@66-52-22-46.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > Various posters have told me that > > there is evidence of life evolving from non-life. > > There is such evidence. My understanding is that it's not complete > and comprehensive, but it's enough to generate scientific theories on. > > ID on the other hand, has nothing on which to base any scientific > theories. > > You, of course take the unscientific position that not only are the ID > guesses correct, but that the Bible is an accurate representation of > what happened. > > The DI won't even say that. The DI won't even talk about Jesus, and he > was supposedly around not all that long ago in the grand scheme of > things. As far as I know, the DI uses the same date that the advocate of evoltuion uses. The staff members at ICR believe the world was formed about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. Jason Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> > >> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> >In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >Martin >> >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > In article >> >> >> > <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> >Martin >> >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > In article >> >> >> > > > > > >> ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >> >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >> >bring into >> >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > worry, >> >> >> > there are >> >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for >> >> >> > > > > > details. >> >> >They have >> >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and >> >> >> > > > > > People". >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They >> >> >> > > could >> >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from > around the >> >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be >> >> >> > > part >> >> >> > > of the elementary school program. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about >> >> >> > a >> >public >> >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > students >> >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a >> >> >> > special >> >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > that class >> >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? >> >> >> >> >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >> >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >> >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would >> >> >> insist >> >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >> >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious >> >> >> background. >> >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you >> >> >> have >> >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >> >> >> wanting to do the same thing. >> >> >> >> >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in >> >> >> elementary >> >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >> >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >> >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact >> >> >> and >> >> >> fiction when they become adults. >> >> >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> > >> >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant >> >> >Muslim >> >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group >> >> >prayer >> >> >sessions? >> >> >> >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >> >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment >> >> for >> >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >> >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >> >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >> >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >> >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending >> >> to >> >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >> >> prove that your religion isn't false. >> >> >> >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a >> >> >Christian >> >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a >> >> >free >> >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >> >> >Creation"? >> >> >> >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >> >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently >> >> don't >> >> want to acknowledge that. >> >> >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >> > >> >Good points: >> >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in >> >favor >> >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >> >taught Intelligent Design? >> >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >> lies being taught by religious sects. >> >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > > Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > Jason No. I want all Christians to FOAD! Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-3006071341440001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > >> >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock >> >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an >> >> > ongoing >> >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to >> >> > conducting >> >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata >> >> > and >> >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > >> >> Non-answer. > >>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > >> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it >> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to > scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent > design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > journals. > > Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on > their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR > website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. See Judge Overmeyer's statement on this. I thought I told you this many weeks ago, you dishonest ass. Quote
Guest Ralph Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Jason-3006071206460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > In article <f65k7k$9o8$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> > The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate >> > that >> > life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and >> > not evidence. >> >> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you >> keep repeating this same tired lie? > > One poster indicated that the main evidence that proves that life evolved > from non-life is that we now have life on this planet. He indicated that > PROVED that life evolved from non-life since that was the ONLY way that it > could have happened. When I mentioned that God created mankind; some > plants and some animals and that Natural Selection kicked in after the > creation process was finished--The poster claimed that he did not believe > in God. I mentioned Erik von Danikan's (spelling??) theory related to > ancient astronauts visiting the earth millions of years ago and leaving > behind dozens of people, many seeds and some animals. He did not believe > that happened. > > Several other posters implied or actully stated that the reason life forms > are on this planet is because life evolved from non-life millions of years > ago. When I have mentioned Intelligent Design--various posters have > became angry with me. They are convinced that life came to be on this > planet because of abiogenesis. Various posters become angry with you because you are a liar. Other than that, I don't see why anyone would get angry with an idiot like you. You should be pitied. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <f66dce$458$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <f65k7k$9o8$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate that > >>> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and > >>> not evidence. > >> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you > >> keep repeating this same tired lie? > > > > One poster indicated that the main evidence that proves that life evolved > > from non-life is that we now have life on this planet. He indicated that > > PROVED that life evolved from non-life since that was the ONLY way that it > > could have happened. > > No, he didn't, Jason. Please don't lie. Life FORMED from non-life. It > didn't EVOLVE from non-life. > > Repeat after me: "formed" is not the same as "evolved." Keep repeating > till it sinks into what you laughingly call a brain. > > Also, if there was EVER a time when there was no life (and there's > definitely a time now when there is) then there's no possible question > that life formed from non-life. The ONLY question possible is "what > caused it to do so?" > > When I mentioned that God created mankind; some > > plants and some animals > > Was there life before this creation? If not, then life formed from > non-life. Plain and simple. > > and that Natural Selection kicked in after the > > creation process was finished--The poster claimed that he did not believe > > in God. I mentioned Erik von Danikan's (spelling??) theory related to > > ancient astronauts visiting the earth millions of years ago and leaving > > behind dozens of people, many seeds and some animals. He did not believe > > that happened. > > Even if it DID happen, where did those "ancient astronauts" come from? > > > Several other posters implied or actully stated that the reason life forms > > are on this planet is because life evolved from non-life millions of years > > ago. When I have mentioned Intelligent Design--various posters have > > became angry with me. > > They have become frustrated with you because you can't/won't support > your claim that goddidit. > > They are convinced that life came to be on this > > planet because of abiogenesis. > > So are you. OKAY--I get it. The advocates of Evolution CLAIM that life formed from non-life. If the advocates of evolution want to convince the advocates of creation science and ID that it happened, scientists should conduct a lab experiment to make it happen. That evidence would convince the advocates of creation science and ID that it happened that way. Otherwise, encourage your fellow advocates of evolution to stop trying to convince us that you have evidence that it happened that way. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <Yu6dnT6MQcrGIBvbnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@sti.net>, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > > > I respect Dr. Gish. > > Why would you respect a liar? Does he tell lies you want to hear? I don't believe that Dr. Gish tells lies. He may have stated things that turned out to be false but that is very different than intentional lies. Most peole have done this same thing. Jason Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:27:54 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071327550001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <r7dd83pu91viqknl2lvli9u36dsgmof6p3@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> > >> >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> >> >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >> >> >In article ><1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >> >> >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> > In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> >> >Martin >> >> >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >> >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > In article >> >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >> >> >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >> >> >bring into >> >> >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't >> >worry, >> >> >> >> > there are >> >> >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for >details. >> >> >> >They have >> >> >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and >People". >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? >They could >> >> >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from >> >around the >> >> >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend >it be part >> >> >> >> > > of the elementary school program. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >> >> >public >> >> >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim >> >students >> >> >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has >a special >> >> >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter >> >that class >> >> >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >> >> >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >> >> >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >> >> >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >> >> >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >> >> >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and >you have >> >> >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >> >> >> >> wanting to do the same thing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >> >> >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >> >> >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >> >> >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >> >> >> >> fiction when they become adults. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> > >> >> >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools >grant Muslim >> >> >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >> >> >> >sessions? >> >> >> >> >> >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >> >> >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >> >> >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >> >> >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >> >> >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >> >> >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >> >> >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >> >> >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >> >> >> prove that your religion isn't false. >> >> >> >> >> >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >> >> >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out >a free >> >> >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >> >> >> >Creation"? >> >> >> >> >> >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >> >> >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >> >> >> want to acknowledge that. >> >> >> >> >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >> >> > >> >> >Good points: >> >> >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >> >> >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >> >> >taught Intelligent Design? >> >> >> >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >> >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >> >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >> >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >> >> lies being taught by religious sects. >> >> >> >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >> >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >> >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >> >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. >> > >> >Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >> >could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >> >recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >> >Jason >> > >> It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such >> prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just >> because they are Moslems. >> >> Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already >> accommodate Christians? > >Yes--that is true. Some schools have changed the titles of the holidays so >that atheists will not file lawsuits. > >To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to >Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, Do they? >I would >request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. >If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, >also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their >Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " >Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special >"Christians only" class. >Is the word: reciprocity? It appears that you are confused about what is happening. Is this because you got your 'news' from unreliable sources? Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <clzhi.1318$3a.1312@bignews9.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >> ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >> >In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >> >> >Martin > >> >> >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> > In article > >> >> >> > <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >> >Martin > >> >> >> > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> > > > In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> >> >> > > > <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > Jason wrote: > >> >> >> > > > > > In article > >> >> >> > > > > > > >> ><DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >> >> >> > > > > > 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > >> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > >> >bring into > >> >> >> > > > > >> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > > worry, > >> >> >> > there are > >> >> >> > > > > >> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > > Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for > >> >> >> > > > > > details. > >> >> >They have > >> >> >> > > > > > already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and > >> >> >> > > > > > People". > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > > Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > Because it's the best one. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They > >> >> >> > > could > >> >> >> > > have an entire course about the various creation myths from > > around the > >> >> >> > > world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be > >> >> >> > > part > >> >> >> > > of the elementary school program. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about > >> >> >> > a > >> >public > >> >> >> > school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > > students > >> >> >> > can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a > >> >> >> > special > >> >> >> > class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > > that class > >> >> >> > room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >> >> >> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >> >> >> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would > >> >> >> insist > >> >> >> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >> >> >> required to participate in regardless of their religious > >> >> >> background. > >> >> >> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you > >> >> >> have > >> >> >> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >> >> >> wanting to do the same thing. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in > >> >> >> elementary > >> >> >> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >> >> >> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >> >> >> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> fiction when they become adults. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Martin > >> >> > > >> >> >The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant > >> >> >Muslim > >> >> >students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group > >> >> >prayer > >> >> >sessions? > >> >> > >> >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >> >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment > >> >> for > >> >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >> >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >> >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >> >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >> >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending > >> >> to > >> >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >> >> prove that your religion isn't false. > >> >> > >> >> >If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a > >> >> >Christian > >> >> >student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a > >> >> >free > >> >> >32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >> >> >Creation"? > >> >> > >> >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >> >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently > >> >> don't > >> >> want to acknowledge that. > >> >> > >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > >> > > >> >Good points: > >> >In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in > >> >favor > >> >of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >> >taught Intelligent Design? > >> > >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same > >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any > >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called > >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on > >> lies being taught by religious sects. > >> > >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and > >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific > >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is > >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > > > > Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > > could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > > recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > > Jason > > No. I want all Christians to FOAD! What does FOAD mean? Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071306440001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <fhcd83hslea85mb43dpgduube8vrn7fv3e@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:47:48 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071147490001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> >In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> ><prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Jason wrote: >> >> > In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >> > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Jason wrote: >> >> >>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >> >> >>> involvement of god? yes or no >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should >be taught >> >> >>> in the public schools or just evolution? >> >> >> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >> >> >> scientific backing? >> >> > >> >> > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence >> >> > as scientific backing. >> >> >> >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should >> >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >> >> >> >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >> >> >> >> There have been two books written related to fossil >> >> > evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >> >> >> >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >> >> supports evolution. >> >> >> >> Dr. Steven >> >> > Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >> >> > expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >> >> > processes that form rock strata and fossils. >> >> >> >> And this supports creationism how? >> > >> >Mike, >> >Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific >> >backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that >> >abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. >> >> What exactly is taught and what evidence do you have to show that it is >> wrong? > >Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in >the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I >was taught below. > Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. >> >> >Intelligent Design should >> >be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. >> >> No, it does not. That is a lie that you aren't informed enough to >> recognize. You once were just one more victim of ID/Creationism lies, >> but now you are one of the liars because you repeat their lies even >> after having been corrected. >> >> >When I >> >was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught >> >our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a >> >student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to >> >indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. >> > >> >Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence >> >supports creation science and Intelligent Design. The result is ongoing >> >and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his >> >research findings. >> >> God made you stupid. > Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:17:28 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071317280001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <f66c6r$2td$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike ><prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >> > In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Jason wrote: >> >>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Jason wrote: >> >>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >> >>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should >be taught >> >>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >> >>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >> >>>> scientific backing? >> >>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence >> >>> as scientific backing. >> >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should >> >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >> >> >> >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >> >> >> >> There have been two books written related to fossil >> >>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >> >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >> >> supports evolution. >> >> >> >> Dr. Steven >> >>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >> >>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >> >>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >> >> And this supports creationism how? >> > >> > Mike, >> > Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific >> > backing? The answer is no. >> >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >> That is the reason that I don't believe that >> > abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design should >> > be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. >> >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >> When I >> > was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught >> > our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a >> > student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to >> > indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. >> >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >> > Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence >> > supports creation science and Intelligent Design. >> >> Yes, you already claimed that. Now explain HOW it supports it. >> >> The result is ongoing >> > and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his >> > research findings. >> >> So you just mysteriously know what his findings are? > >He has not yet written a book but has written some articles in the ICR >newsletter to keep us updated on the progress. He did write one book >related to the research that has been done at Mount St. Helens. > >The title and authors: >"Footprints in the Ash" by Dr. John Morris and Dr. Steven A. Austin > >The book is related to the volcanic eruption at Mount St. Helens. They >have taken many research teams to Mount St. Helens. > Yes, but none of the evidence they have gathered actually supports creationism. None of it. Quote
Guest Jason Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 In article <p9jd83drden0usjn67mvj8drjdonucpuc9@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-3006071306440001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >In article <fhcd83hslea85mb43dpgduube8vrn7fv3e@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 11:47:48 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071147490001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> ><prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Jason wrote: > >> >> > In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> >> > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Jason wrote: > >> >> >>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any > >> >> >>> involvement of god? yes or no > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should > >be taught > >> >> >>> in the public schools or just evolution? > >> >> >> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no > >> >> >> scientific backing? > >> >> > > >> >> > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence > >> >> > as scientific backing. > >> >> > >> >> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should > >> >> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? > >> >> > >> >> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. > >> >> > >> >> There have been two books written related to fossil > >> >> > evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. > >> >> > >> >> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that > >> >> supports evolution. > >> >> > >> >> Dr. Steven > >> >> > Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research > >> >> > expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary > >> >> > processes that form rock strata and fossils. > >> >> > >> >> And this supports creationism how? > >> > > >> >Mike, > >> >Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > >> >backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that > >> >abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. > >> > >> What exactly is taught and what evidence do you have to show that it is > >> wrong? > > > >Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in > >the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I > >was taught below. > > > Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I > have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. Are you stating that in 1971, my professor of biology did not teach the primordial soup theory? It was discussed in our biology text book. If you google, "primordial soup" or "primordial pond", you will find proof that some people continue to believe that theory. One poster told me that it was not mentioned when he took a college biology class. Even if that was a true statement, it does not mean that it was not taught to me in 1971 in my biology class. My professor believed the theory. > >> > >> >Intelligent Design should > >> >be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. > >> > >> No, it does not. That is a lie that you aren't informed enough to > >> recognize. You once were just one more victim of ID/Creationism lies, > >> but now you are one of the liars because you repeat their lies even > >> after having been corrected. > >> > >> >When I > >> >was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught > >> >our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a > >> >student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to > >> >indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. > >> > > >> >Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence > >> >supports creation science and Intelligent Design. The result is ongoing > >> >and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his > >> >research findings. > >> > >> God made you stupid. > > Quote
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