Guest Free Lunch Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:23:09 -0700, in alt.atheism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-3006071923090001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >In article <1183255228.763158.30150@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 3:54 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> > Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >> > could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >> > recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >> >> It's different for muslims because they are expected to pray five >> times a day. There is no law against Christians praying on school >> campus. >> >> Martin > >That is true but they don't grant students a special recess for prayer >purposes. They do that in at least one public school for Muslims. > >What is your opinion of this article? I already know that it does not >support creation science or ID. > > Speed of light slowing down? >> Chris Bennett - WorldNetDaily.com The people at WingNutDaily are not reporters. Sometimes it's hard to believe that they are actually on Planet Earth. Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > > > of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > > > taught Intelligent Design? > > > No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school > > property. > This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > > Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org > > The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > time for prayers. > > A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > Muslim girls. > > The question I must ask is this: Why aren Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 02:28:19 -0000, in alt.atheism Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in <1183256899.661910.216580@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: >On Jul 1, 5:38 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071306440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >> >Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in >> >the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I >> >was taught below. >> >> Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I >> have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. > >What do you expect? He went to a Christian college. I think you need quotation marks around 'college'. Real Christian colleges are members of the regional accreditation organizations. It appears that the one he went to was not accredited. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183260014.737772.205380@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in = > favor > > > > of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > > > > taught Intelligent Design? > > > > > No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school > > > property. > > > This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > > > > Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org > > > > The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > > California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > > unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > > defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > > and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > > instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > > time for prayers. > > > > A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > > she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > > prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > > Muslim girls. > > > > The question I must ask is this: Why aren=B9t Christian or Jewish students > > accorded the same privileges in public schools as those accorded Muslims? > > They are. Stop pretending that they aren't. > > > Would a public school redesign its whole cafeteria menu to meet the > > special needs of Christian students? How many schools would redesign their > > menus for Jewish students? > > It isn't just muslims and jews that don't eat pork. Strict Buddists > are vegetarians. Hindus acn eat pork but they can't eat beef. Some > people are vegetarian for non-religious reasons: they believe it is > better for their health not to eat and/or wrong to kill animals for > food. I would be shocked if a school didn't have a separate > vegetarian menu nowadays. > > > Morever, what public school would create an extra recess so that Christian > > students could pray? The ACLU would be on that school district at > > light-speed with an injunction against it. > > That's yet another of your lies: _any_ student is allowed to pray in > school as long as _no_ student is forced to pray in school. Would you > have wanted to be forced to pray to Allah? Are any Christians in > America being forced to pray to Allah? Why the double standard, > Jason? > > Martin A church that has 5000 members in Podum County, Alabama has special rules for all members. The Christian girls from that church can not have classes with any boys. All the Christian students from that church must have a group prayer sessions twice a day. The Christian children from that church must eat only vegetables and fruit for lunch. Do you think the principal of the Podum County Elementary School and the school board should establish new rules and policies for those Christian children in much the same way that the principal and the school board at Carver Elementary School changed the rules and policies for the Muslim students? Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183256653.290934.179400@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 4:41 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > > > >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > > > >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting > > > >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and > > > >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > > >> Non-answer. > > >> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > > > Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it > > > up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > > > results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > > > One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > > journals are advocates of evolution. > > Think about why. > > Martin Because they can. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183257666.501753.233250@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 6:16 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <dhkd835musc4bifgpss7uetde2bud13...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > <Jason-3006071341440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > > >> >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > > > >> >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > > > >> >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting > > > >> >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock > > strata and > > > >> >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > > > > >> >> Non-answer. > > > > > >>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > > > > > >> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it > > > >> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > > > >> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > > > > >One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > > > >journals are advocates of evolution. > > > > > Not really. They are advocates of knowledge, of science, of honesty, > > > something that ID/Creationists refuse to use. > > > > > >They have a bias related to > > > >scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent > > > >design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > > > >creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > > > >journals. > > > > > There are no scientific papers written by advocates of creation science > > > and ID. That is why they are not published. Don't defame editors of > > > science journals for the failures of the ICR, DI and other creationist > > > liars. Put the blame where it belongs. > > > > I recently posted an article that was published in a peer-reviewed jounal. > > The editor and the members the peer-review committee received lots of > > criticism for publishing the article. Upon request, I'll post the article > > again. > > But the article lacked any evidence. The editor only published it for > the sake of the controversy surrounding it. If you assume that every > scientific paper gets published because the editor agrees with what it > says then you know nothing about the scientific process. But we > already knew that. > > Martin It's impossible for you or I to know how many articles written be the advocates of creation science or ID have been rejected by the editors of journals. Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183256826.668483.63480@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 5:34 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <Yu6dnT6MQcrGIBvbnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@sti.net>, "David V." > > > > <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Jason wrote: > > > > > > I respect Dr. Gish. > > > > > Why would you respect a liar? Does he tell lies you want to hear? > > > > I don't believe that Dr. Gish tells lies. > > So? Does that make anything he said true? > > Martin Martin, I don't know. It's my guess that he has said things that he found out later were not true. I would not call those statements lies but I would call them mis-statements. I doubt that Dr. Gish has ever told an intentional lie. However, I am only guessing. I know that Dr. Gish has a different point of view than you have related to issues related to evolution vs. creation. For that reason, you would call certain statements that he makes "lies". For example, Dr. Gish may say, "God created the World". You may call that statement a lie. However, Dr. Gish and millions of Christians would not call that statement a lie. Jason Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <0uYgi.16272$2v1.3247@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <f60tng$fqm$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> In article <f5tmlm$535$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>> In article <1182888536.294395.68200@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>>>>> Why do Christians celebrate a holiday named after a pagan goddess? >>>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know if that is true. If it is true, I don't know the > reason. I am >>>>>>> not an expert related to Bible history. A Jehovahs Witness told me >>>>>>> something about the origin of Christmas. I don't worship any pagan >>>>>>> goddesses. >>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>>> Thanks for your post. >>>> You still failed to answer the question (did you honestly think we >>>> wouldn't notice?) >>> I just checked my Bible dictionary and it does state that Easter was named >>> after the Goddess Eastra. The dictionary states: "In the Bible, Easter is >>> only mentioned one time but is a mistranslation. The original is >>> pascha--the ordinary Greek word for passover." (Acts 12:4). "In the >>> revised version of the Bible, the word "Easter" was replaced with Passover >>> due to the translation problem related to Easter." >>> Jason >>> >>> >> Yet another case where Tanach does it right and the Greek Testament does >> it wrong. The Hebrew term for Passover is Pesach. > > I just checked Acts 12:4 in the New American Standard Bible and the term > used in Acts 12:4 is "passover" and not "easter". In the original King > James Bible, the term in 12:4 is "easter". > > They are wising up. What took them so long? Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Mike wrote: > cactus wrote: >> Mike wrote: >>> Jason wrote: >>>> In article <f5tmlm$535$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>> In article <1182888536.294395.68200@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >>>>>> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>>>> Why do Christians celebrate a holiday named after a pagan goddess? >>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>>>> I don't know if that is true. If it is true, I don't know the >>>>>> reason. I am >>>>>> not an expert related to Bible history. A Jehovahs Witness told me >>>>>> something about the origin of Christmas. I don't worship any pagan >>>>>> goddesses. >>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>> >>>> Thanks for your post. >>> >>> You still failed to answer the question (did you honestly think we >>> wouldn't notice?) >> >> You don't get it. Jason ignores questions he doesn't like, or can't >> face and does the same for answers that he doesn't like. Except in >> the latter case he gives an innocuous, meaningless reply before >> ignoring it. He's sort of a chatterbot who can dodge anything except >> comments which confront him to the point of being offensive. > > Oh, I get it; I just like to smear it back in his face. I don't really > expect an honest answer. > As long as your eyes are open. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>> >>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>> involvement of god? yes or no >>> >>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught >>> in the public schools or just evolution? >> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >> scientific backing? > > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence > as scientific backing. There have been two books written related to fossil > evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. Dr. Steven > Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research > expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary > processes that form rock strata and fossils. > Jason > > They can write 10,000 books, they can destroy entire forests to perpetrate their views, but they are simply wasting resources until they can produce scientifically valid evidence in support of their beliefs. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-wbYyEuD7IdP7@M>, dd@dandrake.com wrote: > >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:48:32 UTC, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote: >> >>> Meeting religious dietary restrictions (kosher or halal, for example) >>> would probably get the schools entangled in issues of what food is >>> appropriate. It would also require everyone to participate. Perhaps >>> there could be some special dishes. Vegetarian dishes would work, for >>> example, although some Orthodox Jews will eat only food prepared in >>> kosher kitchens. Best to keep food out of it. >> See what a bunch of young guys are in this group. Three words: >> Fish on Fridays. >> >> Plenty of places -- tax-supported institutions including schools -- >> wouldn't serve meat at meals on Friday back in the 50s when that was >> problematic for Catholics -- I do hope we agree here that Catholics are >> Christians? -- and it would be too expensive to provide a choice. (Though, >> in all fairness I think that a choice was usually provided; your mileage >> may vary.) >> >>> >>> Accommodating Jewish students is relatively simple - allow head >>> coverings in school and don't penalize students for missing school in >>> the High Holy Days. >> The norm, of course, in my public high school back in the 50s, days of >> true Christian religious freedom, meaning domination, that Jason would >> admire. (Come to think of it, very few head coverings because very few >> Orthodox in that West Coast suburb back then.) >> >> Point: Accommodating minority religious groups is traditional in the >> civilized parts of the USA. I can't speak for the South, and don't want >> to. > > Don, > I posted an article indicating that one American public school that had a > large number of Muslim students actully placed all Muslim girls in their > own class. There were NO boys allowed in that class. This was because it > was part of the Muslim religion. Not only is that a reasonable accommodation, there is growing evidence that separating the sexes around middle school age provides academic benefits to both. All of the Muslim students were granted a > special recess so that they could have a group prayer session. Again, reasonable accommodation. Do you > think that school principal (or perhaps it was the school board) should > have done those things? If your answer is "yes", should Christian students > be allowed to pass out a free booklet entitled "The Bible, Science and > Creation" (the cost is 75 cents per booklet) to all of their fellow > biology students? No, because that is proselytizing. The Muslim students are being given the resources to practice their faith. Passing out tracts is not a part of Christian worship; in fact, it intrudes on the religious rights of others. It's a pity that you refuse to understand the difference. I think that you are capable of that understanding, but I could be wrong. You tell me. > Jason > > Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <hb7e839thprf75ls11t256h5iufqskil58@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 02:28:19 -0000, in alt.atheism > Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in > <1183256899.661910.216580@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: > >On Jul 1, 5:38 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071306440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > >> >Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in > >> >the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I > >> >was taught below. > >> > >> Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I > >> have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. > > > >What do you expect? He went to a Christian college. > > I think you need quotation marks around 'college'. Real Christian > colleges are members of the regional accreditation organizations. It > appears that the one he went to was not accredited. The Christian college that I attended was Ferrum College. When I attended the college, it was a 2 year Junior college. It is now a four year college. They probably have a web site. It will probably state the name of the accreditation organization. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Mike wrote: > Jason wrote: >> In article <1183168962.712319.241720@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, >> Martin >> <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Jun 30, 4:37 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>> In article <BRdhi.18042$19.4...@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" >>>> <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:Jason-2906071317290001@66-52-22-103.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >>>>>> In article <DHchi.6375$09.4...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, "Ralph" >>>>>> <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:Jason-2906071053290001@66-52-22-46.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >>>>>>>> In article <5eklksF39dc2...@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" >>>>>>>> <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> >>>>>>>>> snip >>>>>>>>>> If people choose not to believe the information in the Bible, >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> their choice. According to the Time Almanac (2005), 1.9 billion >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> Christians so they do believe the information in the Bible. >>>>>>>>> So? That doesn't make it true. >>>>>>>> Many of the advocates of evolution believe that life evolved from >>>>>>>> non-life. That doesn't make it true. >>>>>>> Nice subject shift there Jason. >>>>>> Thanks for the compliment. >>>>> No problem. I checked your posting history Jason, and I see that you >> go back >>>>> to 2005 with the bullshit you have been posting here. Same MO, same >> results. >>>>> You need to get closer to Jesus. >>>> You have to much free time on your hands. I was hoping that >>>> scientists had >>>> found some new evidence since 2005 but I was wrong. One poster >>>> referred me >>>> to a site which indicated that a scientist had been able to design an >>>> experment that caused genetic material to be developed from non-genetic >>>> material. That was an interesting experiment. However, as you know, >>>> there >>>> is a vast amount of difference between genetic material and Life. >>> Really? Explain to us, oh great fountain of scientific knowledge, >>> what exactly is the difference between something which is alive and >>> something which reproduces itself chemically? What qualities do your >>> individual cells possess that cause you to say they are "alive"? >>> >>> The evidence that you requested is already available but you lack the >>> scientific know-how to realize it and so you dismiss it out of hand >>> even after promising you wouldn't! >>> >>> Martin >> >> Martin, >> Thanks for the compliment. > > Jason, you're about the only person I know that thanks someone for an > insult. Apparently you don't even know extreme sarcasm when you read it. > > I will believe that life can evolve from >> non-life when I read an article about it in National Geographic Magazine, >> the ICR newsletter, The Discover Magazine or on the Oral Roberts >> University website. > > No, you won't. You've already said your mind is made up and no evidence > will change it. Please quit lying so blatantly. He will never quit because he doesn't know the difference between the two. That's why he's such good fodder for the ICR and the preachers who feed him lies. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183259378.971065.231840@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 10:07 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <1183254291.187206.297...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 1, 2:47 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > > > > backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that > > > > abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. > > > > > Oh, really. None of this should be taught to students then? Why > > > not? Why the cover up? Is it because it proves you wrong? > > > > > In 1953, the Miller-Uley experiment showed that amino acids could form > > > spontaneously from elements present in the "primorial soup". (See > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) Other > > > experiments showed that bilipid membranes can form spontaneously. > > > (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_bilayer) Sidney Fox's > > > research showed that amino acids can spontaneously form protein > > > chains. (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_W._Fox) Protein > > > chains can then guide the formation of RNA chains just as RNA chains > > > are known to guide the formation of protein chains. (See \http:// > > >http://www.hhmi.org/news/lindquist2.html). German scientists have already > > > produced molecules in the laboratory that are capable of reproducing > > > themselves and are therefore alive. (See > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/217054.stm). > > > > > Primative cells would have formed as a way to prevent the contents of > > > the cell from drying out. (See > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/239787.stm > > > ). The simplest cells would have been prokaryote cells (See > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote) which would have been the > > > ancestors of modern bacteria and archaea while more advanced > > > eukaryotic cells (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryotic) would > > > have been the ancestors of modern animal, plant and fungis cells. > > > Eukaryotic cells could have formed through a process known as viral > > > eukaryogenesis (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis > > > ) in which a virus forms an endosymbiosic relationship with a host > > > prokaryote cell. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory > > > ) Mitochondria and plastids are also believed to have arisen as a > > > result of endosymbiosis, the evidence being that mitochondria and > > > plastids share characteristics with bacteria cells, the only > > > difference being that they cannot survive independent of the rest of > > > the cell, but that's fine because human cells cannot survive > > > independent of the rest of the body either. In both cases, the parts > > > have evolved to depend on the whole. > > > > > See alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Major_Transitions_in_Evolution > > > which has links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexand > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_multicellularity > > You didn't answer the question. Thousands of paper have been > published on abiogenesis. Why shouldn't it be taught in class? Why > the cover up? > > > > > Intelligent Design should > > > > be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. > > > > > No, it doesn't. You still haven't shown me a fossil of your god. You > > > are a pathetic liar. > > > > > > When I > > > > was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught > > > > our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a > > > > student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to > > > > indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. > > > > > He was wrong. > > > > > > Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence > > > > supports creation science and Intelligent Design. The result is ongoing > > > > and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his > > > > research findings. > > > > > How about papers? He hasn't published a single research paper on this > > > topic? What does that tell you? > > > It states in his book that Dr. Stephen Austin has "written numerous > > research papers." > > But has he actually published any in a reputable journal? That's the > question. > > Martin I don't know. If so, it was probably journals related to Geology. Dr. Steven Austin graduated from Penn State with a doctorate in geology. Jason Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Mike wrote: > Jason wrote: >> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate that >> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and >> not evidence. > > Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you > keep repeating this same tired lie? I'm so bummed. I thought he had learned something. But it appears that he is both incapable of learning and incapable of distinguishing between truth and lies. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Free Lunch wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:13:02 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-2906072113020001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >> In article <abfb83pgo2i5676l16o4ldmbemvoajj8ei@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:00:01 -0700, in alt.atheism >>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>> <Jason-2906071900010001@66-52-22-115.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>> In article <s4cb83dcef6ojpeq98o3o2c4ctu5fm6q87@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 19:42:48 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>> <Jason-2806071942490001@66-52-22-115.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>> In article <e0l883t608fc0d1nfsgeqg3ccqh8s5efpk@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> ... >>> >>>>>>> Yet your rejection of these entails rejecting evidence. Why do you >>>>>>> reject evidence? >>>>>> I don't reject evidence. I have stated in other posts that I would accept >>>>>> abiogenesis if scientists could conduct a lab experiment that proved that >>>>>> life could evolve from non-life. Someone referred me to a site that >>>>>> discussed an experiment that proved that some genetic material could be >>>>>> produced from non-genetic material. As you know, there is a vast amount of >>>>>> difference between genetic material and life. >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>> You reject evidence. You are not a scientist. You don't get to tell >>>>> scientists what evidence you accept and what you reject. You don't even >>>>> know what evidence is. >>>> The point is that any experiment that was done would have to be >>>> repeatable. >>> Yes, but not necessarily in the way you insist. >>> >>>> That means that any of the science professors that teach at >>>> the ICR graduate school >>> They don't teach science. Stop lying about that. >>> >>>> or Oral Roberts University could repeat the >>>> experiment and write a report in their newsletters or on their websites >>>> about the results of that experiment. >>> Your point? Oral Roberts is a member of North Central Association. That >>> means they are a real college. I am confident that you would be able to >>> find a qualified Biologist in their faculty. Don't lump them in with the >>> liars of ICR and DI. >>> >>>> I could also read about it in >>>> Discovery Magazine, National Geographic magazine or the Journal of >>>> Molecular Evolution website. I may not be able to personally analyze the >>>> results of such an experiment but there are lots of other people that >>>> could do it. The above mentioned people and organizations know what >>>> evidence is. >>> ICR doesn't. You know they are liars. The rest have no problem with real >>> science. >> Not a problem: I would visit the Oral Roberts University website and read >> about the results of such an experiment. I would buy Discorvery Magazine >> and National Geographic Magazine and read about the results of such an >> experiment. > > You haven't explained why you reject evidence that comes from places > that you don't approve of or accept false claims made by groups that you > do approve of? > > Don't you think that you harm Christianity by supporting liars like the > ICR? > > By the way, Bill Dembski has completely lost the thread. He is now > defending a holocaust denier who was jailed in Germany. Learn about the > entire context here: > <http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/whod_have_ever_cared_about_joh.php> > > Learn not to defend those who lie and deceive in His name. It makes you, > and all of Christianity look bad. Jason would defend the Antichrist if he agreed with him regarding evolution. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>> In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Martin >>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>> > <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > bring into >>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry, >>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. >>> They have >>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". >>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could >>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the >>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part >>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > public >>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim students >>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special >>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter that class >>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have >>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>> >>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>> >>>> Martin >>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim >>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >>> sessions? >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >> prove that your religion isn't false. >> >>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free >>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>> Creation"? >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >> want to acknowledge that. >> >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > > Good points: > In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > taught Intelligent Design? > > No, because "intelligent design" is religious dogma, which has no place on a public school campus. Teaching such things is like proselytizing. It does not serve any universal Christian requirement; indeed, many Christians regard "intelligent design" as garbage. It has nothing to do with religious PRACTICE, and therefore requires no accommodation. Does this make sense to you, Jason? Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Free Lunch wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 16:52:00 -0400, in alt.atheism > "Ralph" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in > <tnzhi.1320$3a.1002@bignews9.bellsouth.net>: >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message >> news:Jason-3006071341440001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >>>>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock >>>>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an >>>>>>> ongoing >>>>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to >>>>>>> conducting >>>>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. >>>>>> Non-answer. >>>>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. >>>> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it >>>> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >>>> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. >>> One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed >>> journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to >>> scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent >>> design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of >>> creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed >>> journals. >>> >>> Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on >>> their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR >>> website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. >> See Judge Overmeyer's statement on this. I thought I told you this many >> weeks ago, you dishonest ass. >> > Jason likes to repeat his favorite defamatory statements. In some ways, > he appears to be quite polite, but in others he is one of the rudest > posters who has ever soiled Usenet. I dunno. There are several bigots who defame with every post. There are some with limited abilities who resort to "shaddup" and the like. There are the trolls who engage just so they can exercise their potty mouths. Jason is none of these. He is, for the most part polite, even though he routinely ignores answers that he can't deal with. He has a number of problems, but rudeness is really the least of them IMHO. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <cbjd83htc6gl9g45vdtjqom31p73kkdn1r@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:17:28 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071317280001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>> In article <f66c6r$2td$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>>>>>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should >>> be taught >>>>>>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >>>>>>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >>>>>>>> scientific backing? >>>>>>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil > evidence >>>>>>> as scientific backing. >>>>>> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something > should >>>>>> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >>>>>> >>>>>> There have been two books written related to fossil >>>>>>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >>>>>> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >>>>>> supports evolution. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Steven >>>>>>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >>>>>>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >>>>>>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >>>>>> And this supports creationism how? >>>>> Mike, >>>>> Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific >>>>> backing? The answer is no. >>>> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >>>> >>>> That is the reason that I don't believe that >>>>> abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design > should >>>>> be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. >>>> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >>>> >>>> When I >>>>> was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught >>>>> our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a > question by a >>>>> student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to >>>>> indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. >>>> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >>>> >>>>> Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence >>>>> supports creation science and Intelligent Design. >>>> Yes, you already claimed that. Now explain HOW it supports it. >>>> >>>> The result is ongoing >>>>> and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his >>>>> research findings. >>>> So you just mysteriously know what his findings are? >>> He has not yet written a book but has written some articles in the ICR >>> newsletter to keep us updated on the progress. He did write one book >>> related to the research that has been done at Mount St. Helens. >>> >>> The title and authors: >>> "Footprints in the Ash" by Dr. John Morris and Dr. Steven A. Austin >>> >>> The book is related to the volcanic eruption at Mount St. Helens. They >>> have taken many research teams to Mount St. Helens. >>> >> Yes, but none of the evidence they have gathered actually supports >> creationism. None of it. > > Dr. John Morris and Dr. Steven A. Austin would disagree with you. I copied > this sentence from the above mentioned book: > "This evidence [that is mentioned in the above mentioned book]..support > God's Word when it claims that God created all things in the > not-to-distant past..." > page 125). > > I suppose it depends on how you define "not too distant past." By some people a billion years barely makes it to geological time, and anything less is "not too distant..." Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <f66dce$458$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <f65k7k$9o8$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate that >>>>> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and >>>>> not evidence. >>>> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you >>>> keep repeating this same tired lie? >>> One poster indicated that the main evidence that proves that life evolved >>> from non-life is that we now have life on this planet. He indicated that >>> PROVED that life evolved from non-life since that was the ONLY way that it >>> could have happened. >> No, he didn't, Jason. Please don't lie. Life FORMED from non-life. It >> didn't EVOLVE from non-life. >> >> Repeat after me: "formed" is not the same as "evolved." Keep repeating >> till it sinks into what you laughingly call a brain. >> >> Also, if there was EVER a time when there was no life (and there's >> definitely a time now when there is) then there's no possible question >> that life formed from non-life. The ONLY question possible is "what >> caused it to do so?" >> >> When I mentioned that God created mankind; some >>> plants and some animals >> Was there life before this creation? If not, then life formed from >> non-life. Plain and simple. >> >> and that Natural Selection kicked in after the >>> creation process was finished--The poster claimed that he did not believe >>> in God. I mentioned Erik von Danikan's (spelling??) theory related to >>> ancient astronauts visiting the earth millions of years ago and leaving >>> behind dozens of people, many seeds and some animals. He did not believe >>> that happened. >> Even if it DID happen, where did those "ancient astronauts" come from? >> >>> Several other posters implied or actully stated that the reason life forms >>> are on this planet is because life evolved from non-life millions of years >>> ago. When I have mentioned Intelligent Design--various posters have >>> became angry with me. >> They have become frustrated with you because you can't/won't support >> your claim that goddidit. >> >> They are convinced that life came to be on this >>> planet because of abiogenesis. >> So are you. > > OKAY--I get it. The advocates of Evolution CLAIM that life formed from > non-life. If the advocates of evolution want to convince the advocates of > creation science and ID that it happened, scientists should conduct a lab > experiment to make it happen. That evidence would convince the advocates > of creation science and ID that it happened that way. Otherwise, encourage > your fellow advocates of evolution to stop trying to convince us that you > have evidence that it happened that way. > > Jason, Jason, Jason, are you deliberately being this stupid? Did your preachers cover this yet again? You know the truth of the matter, and yet it runs off of you like water off a duck's back. You have truly disappointed me Jason. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: >>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock >>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing >>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting >>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and >>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > >>>> Non-answer. > >>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > >> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it >> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to > scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent > design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > journals. > > Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on > their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR > website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. > > Come up with something better, Jason. Get your gurus to come up with a valid theory, and they will get published. But the fact that they can't get published speaks volumes for the validity of their "science." IOW it isn't science, it's theology and wishful thinking, and the editors are right not to publish any of it. Cheer up, they don't publish anything on Lysenkoism, miasma theory, and Spider Woman. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <r7dd83pu91viqknl2lvli9u36dsgmof6p3@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>> In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>> In article > <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >>>>> bring into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't >>> worry, >>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for > details. >>>>>>> They have >>>>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and > People". >>>>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? > They could >>>>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from >>> around the >>>>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend > it be part >>>>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >>>>> public >>>>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim >>> students >>>>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has > a special >>>>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter >>> that class >>>>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and > you have >>>>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>>>>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools > grant Muslim >>>>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >>>>>>> sessions? >>>>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >>>>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >>>>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >>>>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >>>>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >>>>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >>>>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >>>>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >>>>>> prove that your religion isn't false. >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >>>>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out > a free >>>>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>>>>>> Creation"? >>>>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >>>>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >>>>>> want to acknowledge that. >>>>>> >>>>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >>>>> Good points: >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >>>> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >>>> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >>>> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >>>> lies being taught by religious sects. >>>> >>>> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >>>> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >>>> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >>>> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. >>> Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >>> could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >>> recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >>> Jason >>> >> It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such >> prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just >> because they are Moslems. >> >> Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already >> accommodate Christians? > > Yes--that is true. Some schools have changed the titles of the holidays so > that atheists will not file lawsuits. > > To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to > Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would > request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. > If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, > also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their > Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " > Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special > "Christians only" class. > Is the word: reciprocity? > > I object to preferential treatment for Christians. The public schools I attended had a daily prayer, which often mentioned Jesus of Nazareth. There were Christmas parties, but no recognition of any religious celebrations. They celebrated Easter in school but not Pesach. Christians get out of school for their holidays, but I had to get special permission, and miss class to attend High Holy Day services. And your sabbath is respected, not mine. Sporting events are on Friday nights or Saturdays, which precludes Orthodox Jews from participating in sports. Then there was the abrasive "Funny, you don't look Jewish" (I have Central American ancestors), the routine slurs about Jews. Jason, you have no compassion for non-Christians, no consideration for the needs of others, and no comprehension of what is special treatment for Christians. You just take it for granted that your holidays are school holidays, that your sabbath is the only one, and that your religious beliefs should be the only one to get any attention in schools. You regard any accommodation of other religious practices as "special treatment." Develop some perspective, and you will grow spiritually and maybe even learn to walk a genuinely Christian path. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <f66c6r$2td$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>>>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should > be taught >>>>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >>>>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >>>>>> scientific backing? >>>>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence >>>>> as scientific backing. >>>> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should >>>> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >>>> >>>> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >>>> >>>> There have been two books written related to fossil >>>>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >>>> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >>>> supports evolution. >>>> >>>> Dr. Steven >>>>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >>>>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >>>>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >>>> And this supports creationism how? >>> Mike, >>> Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific >>> backing? The answer is no. >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >> That is the reason that I don't believe that >>> abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design should >>> be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >> When I >>> was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught >>> our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a >>> student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to >>> indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. >> Well, that part didn't answer my question. >> >>> Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence >>> supports creation science and Intelligent Design. >> Yes, you already claimed that. Now explain HOW it supports it. >> >> The result is ongoing >>> and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his >>> research findings. >> So you just mysteriously know what his findings are? > > He has not yet written a book but has written some articles in the ICR > newsletter to keep us updated on the progress. He did write one book > related to the research that has been done at Mount St. Helens. > > The title and authors: > "Footprints in the Ash" by Dr. John Morris and Dr. Steven A. Austin > > The book is related to the volcanic eruption at Mount St. Helens. They > have taken many research teams to Mount St. Helens. > > I hope they didn't interfere with the real science that is being done there. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <468712d0$0$8044$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, "Christopher Morris" <Draccus@roadrunner.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-3006071525500001@66-52-22-96.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > In article <r9kd83h1fr830t6tot5iab126od6sdtv4u@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:28:46 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > It's very different. God created life from non-life. That is VERY > > different than life forming naturally from non-life. > > Jason in the end all people and the rest life is a bunch of chemicals that > come together and react with one another, thus all life is made from the > chemical reaction of nonlife. You could enter a college lab and find all sorts of chemicals. However, you know that it would take lots of work to create various types of cells from those chemicals. It's easier for me to believe that an intelligent designer done that work than to believe it all happened naturally. I believe it takes more faith to believe it happened naturally than to believe that an intelligent designer done it. When you look at a brand new Mercedes-Benz, you know that it was made by an intelligent designer. Mankind is MUCH more complex than a Mercedes-Benz. Can you now understand why it's easier for me to believe that God created mankind than to believe that mankind came about naturally? Can you also now understand why more people in America agree with me than agree with you related to this issue? Jason Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >>> Martin >>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>> >>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >>> bring into >>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > worry, >>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. >>>>> They have >>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". >>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could >>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from > around the >>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part >>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >>> public >>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > students >>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special >>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > that class >>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have >>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim >>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >>>>> sessions? >>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >>>> prove that your religion isn't false. >>>> >>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free >>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>>>> Creation"? >>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >>>> want to acknowledge that. >>>> >>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >>> Good points: >>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>> taught Intelligent Design? >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >> lies being taught by religious sects. >> >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > > Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > Jason > > If their religion required it, yes. But Christianity does not require prayer several times per day, as does Islam, and to some extent Judaism. Judaism just requires morning and evening prayer, which can take place before and after school hours. Christianity doesn't, Jason, but the usual day for church attendance is Sunday, so no school events happen that day. Sports events often take place Friday evening and Saturday day, which precludes Orthodox Jewish participation. Yet we manage. Wouldn't you resent Sunday football games? You would, wouldn't you, yet that is special treatment for Christians. Get used to it, Christians get special treatment all over the damn place, and you take it for granted so much that you can't see it at all. Quote
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