Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <DJydnUMrYs25TBvbnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@sti.net>, "David V." > <spam@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <Yu6dnT6MQcrGIBvbnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@sti.net>, "David >>> V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>> >>>>> I respect Dr. Gish. >>>> Why would you respect a liar? Does he tell lies you want to >>>> hear? >>> >>> I don't believe that Dr. Gish tells lies. >> Those that are knowledgeable on the subject say he does. >> >>> He may have stated things that turned out to be false but that >>> is very different than intentional lies. >> No, he has stated things that he knows to be false. If you've >> been to his lectures or debates, you'd know that. I have, and I >> have some knowledge of the subject. He lies. That you refuse to >> acknowledge that these anti-evolutionists lie tells us more about >> you than about them. >> >>> Most peole have done this same thing. >> So? Does that make him right? > > I'll never forget the debate that I attended. Dr. Gish remained calm and > professional. The science professor from the local state college lost his > temper and as a result made a fool of himself. Dr. Gish ignored him and > made his next point when it was his turn. It was a manipulative ploy on Gish's part. He incited the honest anger, then exploited it. You do the same thing - why do you think everyone around you is so frustrated with you? You do exactly what he no doubt did - blandly agree with certain points and then ignore them, or just ignoring them outright. That's why there can be no debating with creationists. I have always respected him as a > direct result of that debate. Since you have attended at least one of his > debates, you should know why I respect him. > > Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Ralph wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-3006071147490001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> In article <f65k0k$9o8$4@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >>> Jason wrote: >>>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be >>>>>> taught >>>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >>>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >>>>> scientific backing? >>>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil >>>> evidence >>>> as scientific backing. >>> No, it doesn't. Now answer the question: Do you believe something should >>> be taught in schools that has no scientific backing? >>> >>> It's a simple "yes/no" question. No essays required. >>> >>> There have been two books written related to fossil >>>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. >>> And there have been thousands of books related to fossil evidence that >>> supports evolution. >>> >>> Dr. Steven >>>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >>>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >>>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >>> And this supports creationism how? >> Mike, >> Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific >> backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that >> abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. Intelligent Design should >> be taught since it has fossil evidence and rock strata evidence. When I >> was taking a college biology class in 1971, the biology professor taught >> our class about the primordial soup theory. In response to a question by a >> student, the professor told our class that there was NO evidence to >> indicate that life evolved from non-life in the primordial soup. >> >> Dr. Austin is of the opinion that rock strata data and fossil evidence >> supports creation science and Intelligent Design. The result is ongoing >> and as far as I know--Dr. Austin has not written a book related to his >> research findings. > > The rest of science disagrees with Dr. Austin. > > The "rest" of science? Do give him too much credibility. Say science disagrees with Dr. Austin. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Ralph wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-3006071525500001@66-52-22-96.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... >> In article <r9kd83h1fr830t6tot5iab126od6sdtv4u@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:28:46 -0700, in alt.atheism >>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>> <Jason-3006071428460001@66-52-22-96.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>> In article <f66dce$458$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>> In article <f65k7k$9o8$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to >> indicate that >>>>>>>> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on >>>>>>>> speculation and >>>>>>>> not evidence. >>>>>>> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> keep repeating this same tired lie? >>>>>> One poster indicated that the main evidence that proves that life >>>>>> evolved >>>>>> from non-life is that we now have life on this planet. He indicated >>>>>> that >>>>>> PROVED that life evolved from non-life since that was the ONLY way >> that it >>>>>> could have happened. >>>>> No, he didn't, Jason. Please don't lie. Life FORMED from non-life. It >>>>> didn't EVOLVE from non-life. >>>>> >>>>> Repeat after me: "formed" is not the same as "evolved." Keep repeating >>>>> till it sinks into what you laughingly call a brain. >>>>> >>>>> Also, if there was EVER a time when there was no life (and there's >>>>> definitely a time now when there is) then there's no possible question >>>>> that life formed from non-life. The ONLY question possible is "what >>>>> caused it to do so?" >>>>> >>>>> When I mentioned that God created mankind; some >>>>>> plants and some animals >>>>> Was there life before this creation? If not, then life formed from >>>>> non-life. Plain and simple. >>>>> >>>>> and that Natural Selection kicked in after the >>>>>> creation process was finished--The poster claimed that he did not >>>>>> believe >>>>>> in God. I mentioned Erik von Danikan's (spelling??) theory related >>>>>> to >>>>>> ancient astronauts visiting the earth millions of years ago and >>>>>> leaving >>>>>> behind dozens of people, many seeds and some animals. He did not >>>>>> believe >>>>>> that happened. >>>>> Even if it DID happen, where did those "ancient astronauts" come from? >>>>> >>>>>> Several other posters implied or actully stated that the reason >> life forms >>>>>> are on this planet is because life evolved from non-life millions >> of years >>>>>> ago. When I have mentioned Intelligent Design--various posters have >>>>>> became angry with me. >>>>> They have become frustrated with you because you can't/won't support >>>>> your claim that goddidit. >>>>> >>>>> They are convinced that life came to be on this >>>>>> planet because of abiogenesis. >>>>> So are you. >>>> OKAY--I get it. The advocates of Evolution CLAIM that life formed from >>>> non-life. >>> So do creationists. >> It's very different. God created life from non-life. That is VERY >> different than life forming naturally from non-life. > > No it isn't!!! Damn, just how stupid are you?? Please don't answer it was a > rhetorical question. > > > I'm not sure whether he is just plain stupid or seriously deluded. Given his behavior, I lean toward the latter. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183256618.407694.264530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jul 1, 4:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to > > Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would > > request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. > > If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, > > also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their > > Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " > > Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special > > "Christians only" class. > > Is the word: reciprocity? > > There is no preferential treatment for muslims. As has been already > explained to you, all students get Christmas and Easter as holidays > just to cater to Christians. Jewish students are therefore not > penalized if they choose to be absent from school to celebrate Jewish > holidays. By the same token, Muslim students are being given time to > pray because their religion expects them to pray five times a day. > Does yours? > > Martin Martin, The Muslims also want Muslim girls to be educated separate from boys. Many smaller elementary schools and high schools would have a difficult time providing "girls only" classes. The costs would be more than some school budgets would allow. Related to "Christian holidays". Many schools have changed the names of those holidays. For example, Christmas may be called, "winter holiday". Should schools have to spend huge amounts of money to accommodate students that are members of various religions? My answer is NO--no students should receive preferential treatment--even Christians. Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <867e83pj07lmglj8dtmmdbdiu1eb6td2dt@4ax.com>, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 18:52:39 -0700, in alt.atheism > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > <Jason-3006071852400001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > > >> >> >No--there was a large group of Moslem students and the principal and > >> >> >members of the school board were trying to accommodate the wishes of the > >> >> >Moslem parents. Upon request, I'll try to find the article on the web and > >> >> >repost it. A substitute teacher that was probably a Christian told the > >> >> >news media about the strange things she saw in that public school. I > >> >> >understand why the principal and members of the school board were showing > >> >> >preferential treatment to the Moslems but it was still the wrong thing to > >> >> >do since it's against the law to do the things they done. > >> >> >Jason > >> >> > > >> >> Which newspaper reported this? > >> > > >> >I found it on the web. It was probably published in the newspaper of the > >> >city nearest the public school. > >> > > >> I cannot trust you. You have demonstrated that your word cannot be > >> trusted. You have repeatedly said that you support lies and liars. > >> Provide a proper citation. > > > >This is the actual article that I posted a couple of days ago: > > > >Traditional Values Coalition > > [snip propaganda by supposed Christians] > > You don't know what news reporting is, either. Since you know about news reporting, do you believe the newspapers in the cities nearest those two schools covered the stories mentioned in the article? Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <Y8Ghi.5211$vi5.2290@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <r7dd83pu91viqknl2lvli9u36dsgmof6p3@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>> In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism > >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >>>> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>>>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >>>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >>>>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>>>>>> In article > > <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >>>>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>>>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > >>>>> bring into > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > >>> worry, > >>>>>>>>> there are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for > > details. > >>>>>>> They have > >>>>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and > > People". > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >>>>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. > >>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? > > They could > >>>>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from > >>> around the > >>>>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend > > it be part > >>>>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. > >>>>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > >>>>> public > >>>>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > >>> students > >>>>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has > > a special > >>>>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > >>> that class > >>>>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >>>>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >>>>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >>>>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist > >>>>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >>>>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. > >>>>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and > > you have > >>>>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >>>>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary > >>>>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >>>>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >>>>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and > >>>>>>>> fiction when they become adults. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools > > grant Muslim > >>>>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer > >>>>>>> sessions? > >>>>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >>>>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for > >>>>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >>>>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >>>>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >>>>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >>>>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to > >>>>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >>>>>> prove that your religion isn't false. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian > >>>>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out > > a free > >>>>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >>>>>>> Creation"? > >>>>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >>>>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't > >>>>>> want to acknowledge that. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > >>>>> Good points: > >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? > >>>> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same > >>>> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any > >>>> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called > >>>> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on > >>>> lies being taught by religious sects. > >>>> > >>>> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and > >>>> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific > >>>> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is > >>>> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > >>> Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > >>> could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > >>> recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > >>> Jason > >>> > >> It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such > >> prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just > >> because they are Moslems. > >> > >> Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already > >> accommodate Christians? > > > > Yes--that is true. Some schools have changed the titles of the holidays so > > that atheists will not file lawsuits. > > > > To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to > > Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would > > request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. > > If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, > > also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their > > Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " > > Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special > > "Christians only" class. > > Is the word: reciprocity? > > > > > I object to preferential treatment for Christians. The public schools > I attended had a daily prayer, which often mentioned Jesus of Nazareth. > There were Christmas parties, but no recognition of any religious > celebrations. They celebrated Easter in school but not Pesach. > Christians get out of school for their holidays, but I had to get > special permission, and miss class to attend High Holy Day services. > > And your sabbath is respected, not mine. Sporting events are on Friday > nights or Saturdays, which precludes Orthodox Jews from participating in > sports. > > Then there was the abrasive "Funny, you don't look Jewish" (I have > Central American ancestors), the routine slurs about Jews. > > Jason, you have no compassion for non-Christians, no consideration for > the needs of others, and no comprehension of what is special treatment > for Christians. You just take it for granted that your holidays are > school holidays, that your sabbath is the only one, and that your > religious beliefs should be the only one to get any attention in > schools. You regard any accommodation of other religious practices as > "special treatment." Develop some perspective, and you will grow > spiritually and maybe even learn to walk a genuinely Christian path. I understand your points. You are correct. However, the rules and policies have changed. All students are now suppose to be treated the same regardless of their religions. Do you believe that Muslim students should receive preferential treatment? Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1183254646.899096.222030@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>> taught Intelligent Design? >> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school >> property. >> >> Martin > > > Martin, > This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > > Source: http://www.tradionalvalues.org > > The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > time for prayers. > > A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > Muslim girls. > > The question I must ask is this: Why aren Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <sdGhi.5213$vi5.4763@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>>>> In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > >>> Martin > >>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > >>> bring into > >>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't > > worry, > >>>>>>> there are > >>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. > >>>>> They have > >>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". > >>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. > >>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could > >>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from > > around the > >>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part > >>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. > >>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > >>> public > >>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > > students > >>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special > >>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > > that class > >>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist > >>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. > >>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have > >>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary > >>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and > >>>>>> fiction when they become adults. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim > >>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer > >>>>> sessions? > >>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for > >>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to > >>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >>>> prove that your religion isn't false. > >>>> > >>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian > >>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free > >>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >>>>> Creation"? > >>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't > >>>> want to acknowledge that. > >>>> > >>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > >>> Good points: > >>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > >>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >>> taught Intelligent Design? > >> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same > >> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any > >> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called > >> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on > >> lies being taught by religious sects. > >> > >> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and > >> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific > >> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is > >> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. > > > > Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they > > could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special > > recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? > > Jason > > > > > If their religion required it, yes. But Christianity does not require > prayer several times per day, as does Islam, and to some extent Judaism. > Judaism just requires morning and evening prayer, which can take place > before and after school hours. Christianity doesn't, Jason, but the > usual day for church attendance is Sunday, so no school events happen > that day. Sports events often take place Friday evening and Saturday > day, which precludes Orthodox Jewish participation. Yet we manage. > > Wouldn't you resent Sunday football games? You would, wouldn't you, yet > that is special treatment for Christians. > > Get used to it, Christians get special treatment all over the damn > place, and you take it for granted so much that you can't see it at all. Yes, you are correct. Do you think that schools should have girls only classes for Muslims? They did not make any special accommodations for you related to your religion. Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <h4Ghi.659$eY.496@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism > >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>> In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > Martin > >>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>>>>>> In article > >>>>>>>>> > > <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > >>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to > > bring into > >>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry, > >>>>> there are > >>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) > >>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. > >>> They have > >>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". > >>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? > >>>>>>> Because it's the best one. > >>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could > >>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the > >>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part > >>>>>> of the elementary school program. > >>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a > > public > >>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim students > >>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special > >>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter that class > >>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? > >>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me > >>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in > >>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist > >>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are > >>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. > >>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have > >>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems > >>>> wanting to do the same thing. > >>>> > >>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary > >>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary > >>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to > >>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and > >>>> fiction when they become adults. > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim > >>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer > >>> sessions? > >> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United > >> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for > >> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that > >> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not > >> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other > >> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up > >> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to > >> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot > >> prove that your religion isn't false. > >> > >>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian > >>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free > >>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and > >>> Creation"? > >> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a > >> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't > >> want to acknowledge that. > >> > >> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. > > > > Good points: > > In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > > of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > > taught Intelligent Design? > > > > > No, because "intelligent design" is religious dogma, which has no place > on a public school campus. Teaching such things is like proselytizing. > It does not serve any universal Christian requirement; indeed, > many Christians regard "intelligent design" as garbage. It has nothing > to do with religious PRACTICE, and therefore requires no > accommodation. Does this make sense to you, Jason? Yes, I understand your point of view. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1183260014.737772.205380@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>> In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> >>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in = >> favor >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school >>>> property. >>> This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: >>> >>> Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org >>> >>> The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, >>> California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in >>> unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a >>> defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu >>> and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic >>> instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims >>> time for prayers. >>> >>> A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when >>> she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for >>> prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of >>> Muslim girls. >>> >>> The question I must ask is this: Why aren=B9t Christian or Jewish students >>> accorded the same privileges in public schools as those accorded Muslims? >> They are. Stop pretending that they aren't. >> >>> Would a public school redesign its whole cafeteria menu to meet the >>> special needs of Christian students? How many schools would redesign their >>> menus for Jewish students? >> It isn't just muslims and jews that don't eat pork. Strict Buddists >> are vegetarians. Hindus acn eat pork but they can't eat beef. Some >> people are vegetarian for non-religious reasons: they believe it is >> better for their health not to eat and/or wrong to kill animals for >> food. I would be shocked if a school didn't have a separate >> vegetarian menu nowadays. >> >>> Morever, what public school would create an extra recess so that Christian >>> students could pray? The ACLU would be on that school district at >>> light-speed with an injunction against it. >> That's yet another of your lies: _any_ student is allowed to pray in >> school as long as _no_ student is forced to pray in school. Would you >> have wanted to be forced to pray to Allah? Are any Christians in >> America being forced to pray to Allah? Why the double standard, >> Jason? >> >> Martin > > A church that has 5000 members in Podum County, Alabama has special rules > for all members. The Christian girls from that church can not have classes > with any boys. All the Christian students from that church must have a > group prayer sessions twice a day. The Christian children from that church > must eat only vegetables and fruit for lunch. > > Do you think the principal of the Podum County Elementary School and the > school board should establish new rules and policies for those Christian > children in much the same way that the principal and the school board at > Carver Elementary School changed the rules and policies for the Muslim > students? No, it's just one church's rules. Those rules are binding only on one church's members. It does not apply to other Christians, so the school could not make special rules without getting entangled in some very complicated issues. > > Jason > > Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1183257666.501753.233250@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 6:16 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>> In article <dhkd835musc4bifgpss7uetde2bud13...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:44 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-3006071341440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence > and rock >>>>>>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is > an ongoing >>>>>>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to > conducting >>>>>>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock >>> strata and >>>>>>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. >>>>>>>> Non-answer. >>>>>>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an > answer. >>>>>> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that > backs it >>>>>> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >>>>>> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. >>>>> One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed >>>>> journals are advocates of evolution. >>>> Not really. They are advocates of knowledge, of science, of honesty, >>>> something that ID/Creationists refuse to use. >>>>> They have a bias related to >>>>> scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and > Intelligent >>>>> design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of >>>>> creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed >>>>> journals. >>>> There are no scientific papers written by advocates of creation science >>>> and ID. That is why they are not published. Don't defame editors of >>>> science journals for the failures of the ICR, DI and other creationist >>>> liars. Put the blame where it belongs. >>> I recently posted an article that was published in a peer-reviewed jounal. >>> The editor and the members the peer-review committee received lots of >>> criticism for publishing the article. Upon request, I'll post the article >>> again. >> But the article lacked any evidence. The editor only published it for >> the sake of the controversy surrounding it. If you assume that every >> scientific paper gets published because the editor agrees with what it >> says then you know nothing about the scientific process. But we >> already knew that. >> >> Martin > > It's impossible for you or I to know how many articles written be the > advocates of creation science or ID have been rejected by the editors of > journals. It's really simple - all of them. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <I5Ghi.663$eY.419@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > >>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > >>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > >>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting > >>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and > >>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > > >>>> Non-answer. > > > >>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > > > >> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it > >> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > >> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > > > One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > > journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to > > scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent > > design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > > creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > > journals. > > > > Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on > > their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR > > website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. > > > > > Come up with something better, Jason. Get your gurus to come up with a > valid theory, and they will get published. But the fact that they can't > get published speaks volumes for the validity of their "science." IOW > it isn't science, it's theology and wishful thinking, and the editors > are right not to publish any of it. Cheer up, they don't publish > anything on Lysenkoism, miasma theory, and Spider Woman. There is very little that I can do. It appears that the evolutionists are winning the Battle. They have control of the journals and school curriculums. They are willing to spend millions to keep that control. jason Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <hb7e839thprf75ls11t256h5iufqskil58@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 02:28:19 -0000, in alt.atheism >> Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in >> <1183256899.661910.216580@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: >>> On Jul 1, 5:38 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-3006071306440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in >>>>> the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I >>>>> was taught below. >>>> Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I >>>> have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. >>> What do you expect? He went to a Christian college. >> I think you need quotation marks around 'college'. Real Christian >> colleges are members of the regional accreditation organizations. It >> appears that the one he went to was not accredited. > > The Christian college that I attended was Ferrum College. When I attended > the college, it was a 2 year Junior college. It is now a four year > college. They probably have a web site. It will probably state the name of > the accreditation organization. > From the Ferrum College catalog: Ferrum College is accredited by the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (1866 Southern Lane, Decatur, Georgia 30033-4097; Telephone number: (404)679-4501) to award bachelor's degrees. In addition, Ferrum College is accredited by the following: Council on Social Work Education (CSWE accredits the baccalaureate program in Social Work) National Recreation and Park Association Council on Accreditation State Council of Higher Education for Virginia University Senate of the United Methodist Church It appears to be accredited. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <dXFhi.5208$vi5.754@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: > >>> > >>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any > >>> involvement of god? yes or no > >>> > >>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught > >>> in the public schools or just evolution? > >> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no > >> scientific backing? > > > > If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence > > as scientific backing. There have been two books written related to fossil > > evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. Dr. Steven > > Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research > > expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary > > processes that form rock strata and fossils. > > Jason > > > > > They can write 10,000 books, they can destroy entire forests to > perpetrate their views, but they are simply wasting resources > until they can produce scientifically valid evidence in support of their > beliefs. Since evolutionists have control of the journals, the research papers that are produced will never be published in journals. The most that we can do is to publish books. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <MXFhi.5209$vi5.1758@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-wbYyEuD7IdP7@M>, dd@dandrake.com wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:48:32 UTC, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Meeting religious dietary restrictions (kosher or halal, for example) > >>> would probably get the schools entangled in issues of what food is > >>> appropriate. It would also require everyone to participate. Perhaps > >>> there could be some special dishes. Vegetarian dishes would work, for > >>> example, although some Orthodox Jews will eat only food prepared in > >>> kosher kitchens. Best to keep food out of it. > >> See what a bunch of young guys are in this group. Three words: > >> Fish on Fridays. > >> > >> Plenty of places -- tax-supported institutions including schools -- > >> wouldn't serve meat at meals on Friday back in the 50s when that was > >> problematic for Catholics -- I do hope we agree here that Catholics are > >> Christians? -- and it would be too expensive to provide a choice. (Though, > >> in all fairness I think that a choice was usually provided; your mileage > >> may vary.) > >> > >>> > >>> Accommodating Jewish students is relatively simple - allow head > >>> coverings in school and don't penalize students for missing school in > >>> the High Holy Days. > >> The norm, of course, in my public high school back in the 50s, days of > >> true Christian religious freedom, meaning domination, that Jason would > >> admire. (Come to think of it, very few head coverings because very few > >> Orthodox in that West Coast suburb back then.) > >> > >> Point: Accommodating minority religious groups is traditional in the > >> civilized parts of the USA. I can't speak for the South, and don't want > >> to. > > > > Don, > > I posted an article indicating that one American public school that had a > > large number of Muslim students actully placed all Muslim girls in their > > own class. There were NO boys allowed in that class. This was because it > > was part of the Muslim religion. > > Not only is that a reasonable accommodation, there is growing evidence > that separating the sexes around middle school age provides academic > benefits to both. > > > All of the Muslim students were granted a > > special recess so that they could have a group prayer session. > > Again, reasonable accommodation. > > Do you > > think that school principal (or perhaps it was the school board) should > > have done those things? If your answer is "yes", should Christian students > > be allowed to pass out a free booklet entitled "The Bible, Science and > > Creation" (the cost is 75 cents per booklet) to all of their fellow > > biology students? > > No, because that is proselytizing. The Muslim students are being given > the resources to practice their faith. Passing out tracts is not a part > of Christian worship; in fact, it intrudes on the religious rights of > others. > > It's a pity that you refuse to understand the difference. I think that > you are capable of that understanding, but I could be wrong. You tell me. > > > Jason > > > > Should Christian students be allowed to pass out Christian tracts at recess or in the school cafeteria? Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <vWFhi.5206$vi5.2897@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <0uYgi.16272$2v1.3247@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, > > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> In article <f60tng$fqm$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>> In article <f5tmlm$535$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>>>> In article <1182888536.294395.68200@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > >>>>>>> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: > >>>>>>>> Why do Christians celebrate a holiday named after a pagan goddess? > >>>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't know if that is true. If it is true, I don't know the > > reason. I am > >>>>>>> not an expert related to Bible history. A Jehovahs Witness told me > >>>>>>> something about the origin of Christmas. I don't worship any pagan > >>>>>>> goddesses. > >>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. > >>>>> Thanks for your post. > >>>> You still failed to answer the question (did you honestly think we > >>>> wouldn't notice?) > >>> I just checked my Bible dictionary and it does state that Easter was named > >>> after the Goddess Eastra. The dictionary states: "In the Bible, Easter is > >>> only mentioned one time but is a mistranslation. The original is > >>> pascha--the ordinary Greek word for passover." (Acts 12:4). "In the > >>> revised version of the Bible, the word "Easter" was replaced with Passover > >>> due to the translation problem related to Easter." > >>> Jason > >>> > >>> > >> Yet another case where Tanach does it right and the Greek Testament does > >> it wrong. The Hebrew term for Passover is Pesach. > > > > I just checked Acts 12:4 in the New American Standard Bible and the term > > used in Acts 12:4 is "passover" and not "easter". In the original King > > James Bible, the term in 12:4 is "easter". > > > > > They are wising up. What took them so long? I don't know. The name EASTER will be used even if it no longer in new versions of the Bible. Christmas is not in the Bible and that word has been used for thousands of years. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <1183256618.407694.264530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 4:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >>> To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to >>> Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would >>> request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. >>> If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, >>> also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their >>> Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " >>> Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special >>> "Christians only" class. >>> Is the word: reciprocity? >> There is no preferential treatment for muslims. As has been already >> explained to you, all students get Christmas and Easter as holidays >> just to cater to Christians. Jewish students are therefore not >> penalized if they choose to be absent from school to celebrate Jewish >> holidays. By the same token, Muslim students are being given time to >> pray because their religion expects them to pray five times a day. >> Does yours? >> >> Martin > > Martin, > The Muslims also want Muslim girls to be educated separate from boys. Many > smaller elementary schools and high schools would have a difficult time > providing "girls only" classes. The costs would be more than some school > budgets would allow. My children attended a Jewish day school with approximately 120 students in grades 6-8. They began separating the sexes for math and science while my daughter was there, without difficulty and without raising tuition. > Related to "Christian holidays". Many schools have changed the names of > those holidays. For example, Christmas may be called, "winter holiday". They changed the name of the break, not the holiday. It always includes Christmas, but doesn't always include Hanukkah. But it doesn't matter so much because Hanukkah is such a minor holiday. Now if they could make the 9 Days of Awe a vacation time... > Should schools have to spend huge amounts of money to accommodate students > that are members of various religions? > My answer is NO--no students should receive preferential treatment--even > Christians. Then let students take whatever religious holidays they require. Move sporting events to Sunday afternoon so that Christian students can still play after church, but Jews, who do not work on their Sabbath could participate. Get rid of the cafeterias rather than providing food that only some can eat, or in the alternative, serve only vegetarian food. Do you really want that Jason? Accommodating no one can be as complex as accommodating all. There has to be a balance, and accommodating prayer practices seems to be reasonable. Everyone (except Orthodox Jews) can eat Halal food. So what's the big deal? The big deal is that some Christians see any accommodation, no matter how reasonable, as an attack on their particular sect of their religion. > Jason > > Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <Z2Hhi.9657$c06.4841@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1183256618.407694.264530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jul 1, 4:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > >>> To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to > >>> Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would > >>> request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. > >>> If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, > >>> also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their > >>> Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " > >>> Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special > >>> "Christians only" class. > >>> Is the word: reciprocity? > >> There is no preferential treatment for muslims. As has been already > >> explained to you, all students get Christmas and Easter as holidays > >> just to cater to Christians. Jewish students are therefore not > >> penalized if they choose to be absent from school to celebrate Jewish > >> holidays. By the same token, Muslim students are being given time to > >> pray because their religion expects them to pray five times a day. > >> Does yours? > >> > >> Martin > > > > Martin, > > The Muslims also want Muslim girls to be educated separate from boys. Many > > smaller elementary schools and high schools would have a difficult time > > providing "girls only" classes. The costs would be more than some school > > budgets would allow. > > My children attended a Jewish day school with approximately 120 students > in grades 6-8. They began separating the sexes for math and science > while my daughter was there, without difficulty and without raising tuition. > > > Related to "Christian holidays". Many schools have changed the names of > > those holidays. For example, Christmas may be called, "winter holiday". > > They changed the name of the break, not the holiday. It always includes > Christmas, but doesn't always include Hanukkah. But it doesn't matter so > much because Hanukkah is such a minor holiday. Now if they could make > the 9 Days of Awe a vacation time... > > > Should schools have to spend huge amounts of money to accommodate students > > that are members of various religions? > > My answer is NO--no students should receive preferential treatment--even > > Christians. > > Then let students take whatever religious holidays they require. Move > sporting events to Sunday afternoon so that Christian students can still > play after church, but Jews, who do not work on their Sabbath could > participate. Get rid of the cafeterias rather than providing food that > only some can eat, or in the alternative, serve only vegetarian food. > > Do you really want that Jason? Accommodating no one can be as complex as > accommodating all. There has to be a balance, and accommodating prayer > practices seems to be reasonable. Everyone (except Orthodox Jews) can > eat Halal food. So what's the big deal? > > The big deal is that some Christians see any accommodation, no matter > how reasonable, as an attack on their particular sect of their religion. > > > Jason > > > > I see your points. It's interesting to look at this issue from another point of view. I believe that you were wise to send your children to a Jewish Day School. I attended a really small high school. They would not be able to have girls only classes for all subjects such as history and science. They did have some girls only classes for some subjects such as Phys. Ed. and Home Economics. Jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <bKGhi.666$eY.414@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1183254646.899096.222030@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > >>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor > >>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >>> taught Intelligent Design? > >> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school > >> property. > >> > >> Martin > > > > > > Martin, > > This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > > > > Source: http://www.tradionalvalues.org > > > > The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > > California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > > unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > > defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > > and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > > instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > > time for prayers. > > > > A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > > she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > > prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > > Muslim girls. > > > > The question I must ask is this: Why aren Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 04:27:39 GMT, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote: - Refer: <%2Ghi.656$eY.559@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net> >Mike wrote: >> Jason wrote: >>> The same time that you realize that there is no evidence to indicate that >>> life ever natually evolved from non-life. It's based on speculation and >>> not evidence. >> >> Who ever claimed that life DID evolve from non-life? Jason, why do you >> keep repeating this same tired lie? > >I'm so bummed. I thought he had learned something. But it appears that >he is both incapable of learning and incapable of distinguishing between >truth and lies. I arrived at this conclusion a long, long time ago... -- Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <sPGhi.667$eY.259@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1183260014.737772.205380@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>> In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > >>> > >>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in = > >> favor > >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? > >>>> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school > >>>> property. > >>> This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > >>> > >>> Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org > >>> > >>> The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > >>> California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > >>> unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > >>> defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > >>> and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > >>> instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > >>> time for prayers. > >>> > >>> A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > >>> she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > >>> prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > >>> Muslim girls. > >>> > >>> The question I must ask is this: Why aren=B9t Christian or Jewish students > >>> accorded the same privileges in public schools as those accorded Muslims? > >> They are. Stop pretending that they aren't. > >> > >>> Would a public school redesign its whole cafeteria menu to meet the > >>> special needs of Christian students? How many schools would redesign their > >>> menus for Jewish students? > >> It isn't just muslims and jews that don't eat pork. Strict Buddists > >> are vegetarians. Hindus acn eat pork but they can't eat beef. Some > >> people are vegetarian for non-religious reasons: they believe it is > >> better for their health not to eat and/or wrong to kill animals for > >> food. I would be shocked if a school didn't have a separate > >> vegetarian menu nowadays. > >> > >>> Morever, what public school would create an extra recess so that Christian > >>> students could pray? The ACLU would be on that school district at > >>> light-speed with an injunction against it. > >> That's yet another of your lies: _any_ student is allowed to pray in > >> school as long as _no_ student is forced to pray in school. Would you > >> have wanted to be forced to pray to Allah? Are any Christians in > >> America being forced to pray to Allah? Why the double standard, > >> Jason? > >> > >> Martin > > > > A church that has 5000 members in Podum County, Alabama has special rules > > for all members. The Christian girls from that church can not have classes > > with any boys. All the Christian students from that church must have a > > group prayer sessions twice a day. The Christian children from that church > > must eat only vegetables and fruit for lunch. > > > > Do you think the principal of the Podum County Elementary School and the > > school board should establish new rules and policies for those Christian > > children in much the same way that the principal and the school board at > > Carver Elementary School changed the rules and policies for the Muslim > > students? > > No, it's just one church's rules. Those rules are binding only on one > church's members. It does not apply to other Christians, so the school > could not make special rules without getting entangled in some very > complicated issues. > > > > > Jason > > > > I agree--anytime a school system starts making accommodations for students that are Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists--it could cause the schools to get entangled in some very complicated issues. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <lVGhi.670$eY.67@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <hb7e839thprf75ls11t256h5iufqskil58@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 02:28:19 -0000, in alt.atheism > >> Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in > >> <1183256899.661910.216580@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: > >>> On Jul 1, 5:38 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > >>>> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >>>> <Jason-3006071306440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>>>> Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in > >>>>> the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I > >>>>> was taught below. > >>>> Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I > >>>> have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. > >>> What do you expect? He went to a Christian college. > >> I think you need quotation marks around 'college'. Real Christian > >> colleges are members of the regional accreditation organizations. It > >> appears that the one he went to was not accredited. > > > > The Christian college that I attended was Ferrum College. When I attended > > the college, it was a 2 year Junior college. It is now a four year > > college. They probably have a web site. It will probably state the name of > > the accreditation organization. > > > > From the Ferrum College catalog: > > Ferrum College is accredited by the Commission on Colleges of > the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (1866 Southern > Lane, Decatur, Georgia 30033-4097; Telephone number: (404)679-4501) > to award bachelor's degrees. > In addition, Ferrum College is accredited by the following: > Council on Social Work Education > (CSWE accredits the baccalaureate program in Social Work) > National Recreation and Park Association Council on Accreditation > State Council of Higher Education for Virginia > University Senate of the United Methodist Church > > It appears to be accredited. That information did not surprise me. When I transferred to a state college, all of my courses were credited to me. Quote
Guest johac Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <0ucc83d0219bc6bhjmbc312nef9u5eorfb@4ax.com>, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:30:55 -0700, johac > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > - Refer: <jhachmann-C27601.23305529062007@news.giganews.com> > >In article <l9i98398eq27mk50i9r50s7rob28epstj7@4ax.com>, > > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:39:20 -0700, johac > >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> - Refer: <jhachmann-10F8C1.15392028062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >In article <h1078311ckh892ma7qpjl56v0h105p40qu@4ax.com>, > >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:19:06 -0700, johac > >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-E4FD13.16190627062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >In article <dc648397hljrpucad3mdd3d8ub31lmd1gq@4ax.com>, > >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:15:52 -0700, johac > >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-DB11DE.22155226062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >> >In article <1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com>, > >> >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac > >> >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >> >> >In article > >> >> >> >> ><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > >> >> >> >> > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> >> >> >> >> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> > snip > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the > >> >> >> >> >> > > true > >> >> >> >> >> > > God. > >> >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >> > What makes your god the "true" one? > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Books have been written on that subject. > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> >I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the > >> >> >> >> >true > >> >> >> >> >god? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Of course. > >> >> >> >> The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any > >> >> >> >> time! > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >With one thunderbolt tied behind his back. So could Odin. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Odin is feeling a little thor at the moment... > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >Thor's kid? He should be careful. He could get hammered. > >> >> > >> >> His dad could drink an ocean, apparently, just on a bet. > >> >> I imagine that the tyke will inherit his old man's capacity... > >> > > >> >I wouldn't want to get into a drinking contest with him. > >> > >> Heaven forbid! > > > >But Satan says: "What the hell. Why not?" > > S'Hades of Gray. Aha! So you are in league with the Devil! > > -- -- John #1782 "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order. Quote
Guest johac Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <q3dc83183vrussfbg4n0uk217oqfrss1uu@4ax.com>, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:29:32 -0700, johac > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > - Refer: <jhachmann-D5E3F6.23293229062007@news.giganews.com> > >In article <5ekj7bF398uh2U1@mid.individual.net>, > > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > >> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > >> news:jhachmann-5CD649.15412328062007@news.giganews.com... > >> > In article <5ehujiF385pl0U1@mid.individual.net>, > >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > >> >> news:jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com... > >> >> > In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>, > >> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message > >> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com... > >> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac > >> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >> >>In article > >> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > snip > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true > >> >> >> >>> > > God. > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one? > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the > >> >> >> >>true > >> >> >> >>god? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Of course. > >> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any > >> >> >> > time! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could > >> >> >> give > >> >> >> Zeus a run for his money > >> >> > > >> >> > I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them > >> >> > fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a > >> >> > divine bum fight. :-) > >> >> > >> >> LOL! Diety Death Match? Who knows how to do claymation? > >> > > >> > LOL! I wish I knew how! I'd love to put something like that on YouTube. > >> > :-) > >> > >> That would be hilarious > > > >Heh! Heh! Tag team. Yaweh and Baal vs. Zeus and The FSM. :-) > > With Xena & Hera for spice! And Aphrodite (in her nightie) and Astarte! > > -- -- John #1782 "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order. Quote
Guest Jason Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <YPGhi.668$eY.24@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <1183257666.501753.233250@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jul 1, 6:16 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>> In article <dhkd835musc4bifgpss7uetde2bud13...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > >>> <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > >>>> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > >>>> <Jason-3006071341440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > >>>>>>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence > > and rock > >>>>>>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is > > an ongoing > >>>>>>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to > > conducting > >>>>>>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock > >>> strata and > >>>>>>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > >>>>>>>> Non-answer. > >>>>>>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an > > answer. > >>>>>> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that > > backs it > >>>>>> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > >>>>>> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > >>>>> One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > >>>>> journals are advocates of evolution. > >>>> Not really. They are advocates of knowledge, of science, of honesty, > >>>> something that ID/Creationists refuse to use. > >>>>> They have a bias related to > >>>>> scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and > > Intelligent > >>>>> design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > >>>>> creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > >>>>> journals. > >>>> There are no scientific papers written by advocates of creation science > >>>> and ID. That is why they are not published. Don't defame editors of > >>>> science journals for the failures of the ICR, DI and other creationist > >>>> liars. Put the blame where it belongs. > >>> I recently posted an article that was published in a peer-reviewed jounal. > >>> The editor and the members the peer-review committee received lots of > >>> criticism for publishing the article. Upon request, I'll post the article > >>> again. > >> But the article lacked any evidence. The editor only published it for > >> the sake of the controversy surrounding it. If you assume that every > >> scientific paper gets published because the editor agrees with what it > >> says then you know nothing about the scientific process. But we > >> already knew that. > >> > >> Martin > > > > It's impossible for you or I to know how many articles written be the > > advocates of creation science or ID have been rejected by the editors of > > journals. > > It's really simple - all of them. Except for at least one article. On the other hand, dozens or perhaps hundreds of articles have been published in journals by advocates of creation science. Those articles were not related to creation science or I.D. It's unlikely the editors and members of the review boards even knew they were advocates of creation science. Jason Quote
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