Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <bKGhi.666$eY.414@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com > wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <1183254646.899096.222030@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>> >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school >>>> property. >>>> >>>> Martin >>> >>> Martin, >>> This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: >>> >>> Source: http://www.tradionalvalues.org >>> >>> The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, >>> California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in >>> unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a >>> defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu >>> and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic >>> instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims >>> time for prayers. >>> >>> A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when >>> she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for >>> prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of >>> Muslim girls. >>> >>> The question I must ask is this: Why aren Quote
Guest johac Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <1183197258.119270.49160@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jun 30, 2:29 pm, johac <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > In article <5ekj7bF398uh...@mid.individual.net>, > > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > "johac" <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > > >news:jhachmann-5CD649.15412328062007@news.giganews.com... > > > > In article <5ehujiF385pl...@mid.individual.net>, > > > > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > > >> LOL! Diety Death Match? Who knows how to do claymation? > > > > > > LOL! I wish I knew how! I'd love to put something like that on YouTube. > > > > :-) > > > > > That would be hilarious > > > > Heh! Heh! Tag team. Yaweh and Baal vs. Zeus and The FSM. :-) > > "Baal" is a hebrew word meaning "lord" that was used to refer to any > god other than Yahweh so as far as we know the Baal that teh > Canaanites were worshipping _was_ Zeus. Could be, but according to this: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html it sounds like the Baal of the early OT was a different god. Possibly related to Yaweh, but not the same. He might have been the son of El who is sometimes identified with Yaweh. I don't think that Zeus got there until the Greeks arrived, particularly after Alexander's conquest. > > Martin -- John #1782 "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <Z2Hhi.9657$c06.4841@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <1183256618.407694.264530@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 4:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>> >>>>> To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to >>>>> Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would >>>>> request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. >>>>> If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, >>>>> also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their >>>>> Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " >>>>> Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special >>>>> "Christians only" class. >>>>> Is the word: reciprocity? >>>> There is no preferential treatment for muslims. As has been already >>>> explained to you, all students get Christmas and Easter as holidays >>>> just to cater to Christians. Jewish students are therefore not >>>> penalized if they choose to be absent from school to celebrate Jewish >>>> holidays. By the same token, Muslim students are being given time to >>>> pray because their religion expects them to pray five times a day. >>>> Does yours? >>>> >>>> Martin >>> Martin, >>> The Muslims also want Muslim girls to be educated separate from boys. Many >>> smaller elementary schools and high schools would have a difficult time >>> providing "girls only" classes. The costs would be more than some school >>> budgets would allow. >> My children attended a Jewish day school with approximately 120 students >> in grades 6-8. They began separating the sexes for math and science >> while my daughter was there, without difficulty and without raising tuition. >> >>> Related to "Christian holidays". Many schools have changed the names of >>> those holidays. For example, Christmas may be called, "winter holiday". >> They changed the name of the break, not the holiday. It always includes >> Christmas, but doesn't always include Hanukkah. But it doesn't matter so >> much because Hanukkah is such a minor holiday. Now if they could make >> the 9 Days of Awe a vacation time... >> >>> Should schools have to spend huge amounts of money to accommodate students >>> that are members of various religions? >>> My answer is NO--no students should receive preferential treatment--even >>> Christians. >> Then let students take whatever religious holidays they require. Move >> sporting events to Sunday afternoon so that Christian students can still >> play after church, but Jews, who do not work on their Sabbath could >> participate. Get rid of the cafeterias rather than providing food that >> only some can eat, or in the alternative, serve only vegetarian food. >> >> Do you really want that Jason? Accommodating no one can be as complex as >> accommodating all. There has to be a balance, and accommodating prayer >> practices seems to be reasonable. Everyone (except Orthodox Jews) can >> eat Halal food. So what's the big deal? >> >> The big deal is that some Christians see any accommodation, no matter >> how reasonable, as an attack on their particular sect of their religion. >> >>> Jason >>> >>> > > I see your points. It's interesting to look at this issue from another > point of view. I believe that you were wise to send your children to a > Jewish Day School. I attended a really small high school. They would not > be able to have girls only classes for all subjects such as history and > science. They did have some girls only classes for some subjects such as > Phys. Ed. and Home Economics. If they can do it for those, they could do math and science as well. > Jason > > Quote
Guest johac Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <o1dc831153t79bca8qe0addiio9hpratem@4ax.com>, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:18:12 -0700, johac > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > - Refer: <jhachmann-51A355.23181229062007@news.giganews.com> > >In article <nai983h7frhfr6kddnhkm21qhoe9a1700g@4ax.com>, > > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:44:09 -0700, johac > >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> - Refer: <jhachmann-476633.15440928062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >In article <740783hjnp1rl69hncffbem3j5p90ls05v@4ax.com>, > >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:17:50 -0700, johac > >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>, > >> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message > >> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com... > >> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac > >> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> > >> >> >> >>In article > >> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > snip > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true > >> >> >> >>> > > God. > >> >> >> >>> > > >> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one? > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the > >> >> >> >>true > >> >> >> >>god? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Of course. > >> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any > >> >> >> > time! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could > >> >> >> give > >> >> >> Zeus a run for his money > >> >> > > >> >> >I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them > >> >> >fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a > >> >> >divine bum fight. :-) > >> >> > >> >> Is that "bum" as in "vagrant", or "bum" as in "derriere"? > >> > > >> >Vagrants. A few years back some idiots in this country were paying > >> >homeless people to fight each other while being taped. The would sell > >> >the tapes to bigger idiots who got off watching such violence. > >> > >> The Police will watch anything... > > > >Yep. They may have been the ones doing the taping. > > Gaffer tape... Gaffer tape? > > -- -- John #1782 "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <vWFhi.5206$vi5.2897@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <0uYgi.16272$2v1.3247@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, >>> bm1@nonespam.com wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> In article <f60tng$fqm$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>> In article <f5tmlm$535$7@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <1182888536.294395.68200@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>>>> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Why do Christians celebrate a holiday named after a pagan goddess? >>>>>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if that is true. If it is true, I don't know the >>> reason. I am >>>>>>>>> not an expert related to Bible history. A Jehovahs Witness told me >>>>>>>>> something about the origin of Christmas. I don't worship any pagan >>>>>>>>> goddesses. >>>>>>>> You failed to answer the above question. >>>>>>> Thanks for your post. >>>>>> You still failed to answer the question (did you honestly think we >>>>>> wouldn't notice?) >>>>> I just checked my Bible dictionary and it does state that Easter was named >>>>> after the Goddess Eastra. The dictionary states: "In the Bible, Easter is >>>>> only mentioned one time but is a mistranslation. The original is >>>>> pascha--the ordinary Greek word for passover." (Acts 12:4). "In the >>>>> revised version of the Bible, the word "Easter" was replaced with Passover >>>>> due to the translation problem related to Easter." >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yet another case where Tanach does it right and the Greek Testament does >>>> it wrong. The Hebrew term for Passover is Pesach. >>> I just checked Acts 12:4 in the New American Standard Bible and the term >>> used in Acts 12:4 is "passover" and not "easter". In the original King >>> James Bible, the term in 12:4 is "easter". >>> >>> >> They are wising up. What took them so long? > > I don't know. The name EASTER will be used even if it no longer in new > versions of the Bible. Christmas is not in the Bible and that word has > been used for thousands of years. > > Christmas isn't in the Greek Testament because at the time, December 25th was a pagan holiday. Christianity appropriated the day for its own midwinter holiday. Had Jesus of Nazareth been born in the Southern Hemisphere, Christmas would probably fall in late June. Quote
Guest 655321 Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 In article <Jason-3006071344090001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article > <DipthotDipthot-E7D07F.12595930062007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, > 655321 <DipthotDipthot@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > > > In article > > <Jason-2906071048220001@66-52-22-46.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, > > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > Various posters have told me that > > > there is evidence of life evolving from non-life. > > > > There is such evidence. My understanding is that it's not complete > > and comprehensive, but it's enough to generate scientific theories on. > > > > ID on the other hand, has nothing on which to base any scientific > > theories. > > > > You, of course take the unscientific position that not only are the ID > > guesses correct, but that the Bible is an accurate representation of > > what happened. > > > > The DI won't even say that. The DI won't even talk about Jesus, and he > > was supposedly around not all that long ago in the grand scheme of > > things. > > As far as I know, the DI uses the same date that the advocate of evoltuion > uses. > > The staff members at ICR believe the world was formed about 6,000 to > 10,000 years ago. .... which just goes to prove my point. They are hiding their indoctrination agenda rather poorly. There is your "thought control." -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <MXFhi.5209$vi5.1758@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <vhIsdqY67dTD-pn2-wbYyEuD7IdP7@M>, dd@dandrake.com wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:48:32 UTC, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Meeting religious dietary restrictions (kosher or halal, for example) >>>>> would probably get the schools entangled in issues of what food is >>>>> appropriate. It would also require everyone to participate. Perhaps >>>>> there could be some special dishes. Vegetarian dishes would work, for >>>>> example, although some Orthodox Jews will eat only food prepared in >>>>> kosher kitchens. Best to keep food out of it. >>>> See what a bunch of young guys are in this group. Three words: >>>> Fish on Fridays. >>>> >>>> Plenty of places -- tax-supported institutions including schools -- >>>> wouldn't serve meat at meals on Friday back in the 50s when that was >>>> problematic for Catholics -- I do hope we agree here that Catholics are >>>> Christians? -- and it would be too expensive to provide a choice. (Though, >>>> in all fairness I think that a choice was usually provided; your mileage >>>> may vary.) >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Accommodating Jewish students is relatively simple - allow head >>>>> coverings in school and don't penalize students for missing school in >>>>> the High Holy Days. >>>> The norm, of course, in my public high school back in the 50s, days of >>>> true Christian religious freedom, meaning domination, that Jason would >>>> admire. (Come to think of it, very few head coverings because very few >>>> Orthodox in that West Coast suburb back then.) >>>> >>>> Point: Accommodating minority religious groups is traditional in the >>>> civilized parts of the USA. I can't speak for the South, and don't want >>>> to. >>> Don, >>> I posted an article indicating that one American public school that had a >>> large number of Muslim students actully placed all Muslim girls in their >>> own class. There were NO boys allowed in that class. This was because it >>> was part of the Muslim religion. >> Not only is that a reasonable accommodation, there is growing evidence >> that separating the sexes around middle school age provides academic >> benefits to both. >> >> >> All of the Muslim students were granted a >>> special recess so that they could have a group prayer session. >> Again, reasonable accommodation. >> >> Do you >>> think that school principal (or perhaps it was the school board) should >>> have done those things? If your answer is "yes", should Christian students >>> be allowed to pass out a free booklet entitled "The Bible, Science and >>> Creation" (the cost is 75 cents per booklet) to all of their fellow >>> biology students? >> No, because that is proselytizing. The Muslim students are being given >> the resources to practice their faith. Passing out tracts is not a part >> of Christian worship; in fact, it intrudes on the religious rights of >> others. >> >> It's a pity that you refuse to understand the difference. I think that >> you are capable of that understanding, but I could be wrong. You tell me. >> >>> Jason >>> >>> > > Should Christian students be allowed to pass out Christian tracts at > recess or in the school cafeteria? > > NO! NO! NO! They have no right to proselytize on public school property. It is illegal, and rightfully so - it violates Church-State separation, it appears coercive, especially to other faiths, and is offensive to non-Christians. The same applies to any religion attempting to proselytize on campus. Proselytizing has no place in our public schools, although personal religious practice certainly does. Proselytizing interferes with the religious rights of others, and therefore has no place in public schools. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <dXFhi.5208$vi5.754@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <f63of0$e38$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> I understand your point: This is how I would ask the questions: >>>>> >>>>> Do you believe humans evolved from other life-forms without any >>>>> involvement of god? yes or no >>>>> >>>>> Do you believe that both evolution and intelligent design should be taught >>>>> in the public schools or just evolution? >>>> Do you believe something should be taught in schools that has no >>>> scientific backing? >>> If you are referring to Intelligent Design, it does have fossil evidence >>> as scientific backing. There have been two books written related to fossil >>> evidence that supports creation science and intelligent design. Dr. Steven >>> Austin has a degree in geology from Penn State. He has led 15 research >>> expeditions to the Grand Canyon. His specialty is the sedimentary >>> processes that form rock strata and fossils. >>> Jason >>> >>> >> They can write 10,000 books, they can destroy entire forests to >> perpetrate their views, but they are simply wasting resources >> until they can produce scientifically valid evidence in support of their >> beliefs. > > Since evolutionists have control of the journals, the research papers that > are produced will never be published in journals. The most that we can do > is to publish books. > > Right. They are not peer reviewed. We're all waiting for the creationists to produce some valid science supporting their position. Once they do, everyone will want to publish them. Very simple - go for it. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <I5Ghi.663$eY.419@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com > wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>>>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock >>>>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing >>>>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to conducting >>>>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock strata and >>>>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. >>> >>>>>> Non-answer. >>>>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. >>>> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it >>>> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >>>> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. >>> One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed >>> journals are advocates of evolution. They have a bias related to >>> scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and Intelligent >>> design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of >>> creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed >>> journals. >>> >>> Therefore, the advocates of creation science present their articles on >>> their websites such as the Discovery Institute website and the ICR >>> website. They also publish books. That is about our only options. >>> >>> >> Come up with something better, Jason. Get your gurus to come up with a >> valid theory, and they will get published. But the fact that they can't >> get published speaks volumes for the validity of their "science." IOW >> it isn't science, it's theology and wishful thinking, and the editors >> are right not to publish any of it. Cheer up, they don't publish >> anything on Lysenkoism, miasma theory, and Spider Woman. > > There is very little that I can do. It appears that the evolutionists are > winning the Battle. They have control of the journals and school > curriculums. They are willing to spend millions to keep that control. > jason > > All those alleged millions will be for naught if creationists can just provide some valid scientific support for their position. So far they haven't. Just do that, and their Earthly reward awaits. There might even be a Nobel in it. Just a little valid science, that's all. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <h4Ghi.659$eY.496@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com > wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> In article <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >>> Martin >>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>> >>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >>> bring into >>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't worry, >>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. >>>>> They have >>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". >>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could >>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from around the >>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part >>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >>> public >>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim > students >>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special >>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter > that class >>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have >>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant Muslim >>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >>>>> sessions? >>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >>>> prove that your religion isn't false. >>>> >>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free >>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>>>> Creation"? >>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >>>> want to acknowledge that. >>>> >>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >>> Good points: >>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>> taught Intelligent Design? >>> >>> >> No, because "intelligent design" is religious dogma, which has no place >> on a public school campus. Teaching such things is like proselytizing. >> It does not serve any universal Christian requirement; indeed, >> many Christians regard "intelligent design" as garbage. It has nothing >> to do with religious PRACTICE, and therefore requires no >> accommodation. Does this make sense to you, Jason? > > Yes, I understand your point of view. > > What does that mean? Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <sdGhi.5213$vi5.4763@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>> In article > <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >>>>> bring into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't >>> worry, >>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for details. >>>>>>> They have >>>>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and People". >>>>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? They could >>>>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from >>> around the >>>>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend it be part >>>>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >>>>> public >>>>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim >>> students >>>>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has a special >>>>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter >>> that class >>>>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and you have >>>>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>>>>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools grant > Muslim >>>>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group prayer >>>>>>> sessions? >>>>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >>>>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential treatment for >>>>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >>>>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >>>>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >>>>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >>>>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are condescending to >>>>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >>>>>> prove that your religion isn't false. >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a Christian >>>>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out a free >>>>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>>>>>> Creation"? >>>>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >>>>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You apparently don't >>>>>> want to acknowledge that. >>>>>> >>>>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >>>>> Good points: >>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in favor >>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >>>> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >>>> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >>>> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >>>> lies being taught by religious sects. >>>> >>>> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >>>> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >>>> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >>>> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. >>> Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >>> could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >>> recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >>> Jason >>> >>> >> If their religion required it, yes. But Christianity does not require >> prayer several times per day, as does Islam, and to some extent Judaism. >> Judaism just requires morning and evening prayer, which can take place >> before and after school hours. Christianity doesn't, Jason, but the >> usual day for church attendance is Sunday, so no school events happen >> that day. Sports events often take place Friday evening and Saturday >> day, which precludes Orthodox Jewish participation. Yet we manage. >> >> Wouldn't you resent Sunday football games? You would, wouldn't you, yet >> that is special treatment for Christians. >> >> Get used to it, Christians get special treatment all over the damn >> place, and you take it for granted so much that you can't see it at all. > > Yes, you are correct. Do you think that schools should have girls only > classes for Muslims? They did not make any special accommodations for you > related to your religion. Perhaps they should have. Things are probably better now than when I was in school, but it's Texas, so there is no telling. More should have been done than was, but I managed. If they need it, they should have the accommodation. Their issues are more serious than mine were. Jews as a group are also more used to living in a secular society than are Muslims, many of whom are more recent immigrants. Religious freedom will not work for any of us if we don't respect the needs of everyone. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <Y8Ghi.5211$vi5.2290@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, > bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <r7dd83pu91viqknl2lvli9u36dsgmof6p3@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:54:46 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism >>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>> <Jason-3006071254460001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>> In article <1acd83l3f227fhmdrqg1r10icbodmeuegc@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:21:33 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>>> <Jason-3006071221330001@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>> In article <46pc839kemlnao5pa57bjblm06c1um6luf@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>>>> <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 22:10:12 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>>>>>> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>>>>> <Jason-2906072210120001@66-52-22-5.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>>>> In article >>> <1183178579.174328.269690@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>>>>>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:05 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> In article <1183169797.701414.298...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>>>> <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 4:42 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <f63pn1$fk...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>>>>>>>>>>>> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In article >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> <DipthotDipthot-677E57.20063928062...@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 655321 <DipthotDipt...@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many of the numerous creation [myths] do you want to >>>>>>> bring into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ID curriculum? One? A dozen? Two hundred? (Don't >>>>> worry, >>>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that many -- scores more, in fact.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only one--Visit the Discovery Institute website for >>> details. >>>>>>>>> They have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already published a textbook entitled, "Of Pandas and >>> People". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why that one instead of one of the other hundred or so? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because it's the best one. >>>>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't that be for teachers and students to decide? >>> They could >>>>>>>>>>>> have an entire course about the various creation myths from >>>>> around the >>>>>>>>>>>> world. It would be very enlightening. I would recommend >>> it be part >>>>>>>>>>>> of the elementary school program. >>>>>>>>>>> Would you be in favor of such a course? I posted an article about a >>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>> school where Muslim children have a special recess so the Muslim >>>>> students >>>>>>>>>>> can have a group prayer session. That same public school has >>> a special >>>>>>>>>>> class that only has Muslim girls. No boys are allowed to enter >>>>> that class >>>>>>>>>>> room. What is your opinion about that public school? >>>>>>>>>> I tolerate religious practices up to the point where people tell me >>>>>>>>>> that I have to believe what they believe. I am very consistent in >>>>>>>>>> this regard. It is you who are inconsistent because you would insist >>>>>>>>>> that secular schools have prayer sessions which all students are >>>>>>>>>> required to participate in regardless of their religious background. >>>>>>>>>> Obviously Christians can and do pray in private in school and >>> you have >>>>>>>>>> no problem with that but you apparently have a problem with Moslems >>>>>>>>>> wanting to do the same thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As for wanting young children to learn about mythology in elementary >>>>>>>>>> school, I did learn about Greek and Norse mythology in elementary >>>>>>>>>> school. Look how I turned out. Of course I want other children to >>>>>>>>>> get the same exposure so that they can more easily separate fact and >>>>>>>>>> fiction when they become adults. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> The question was about PUBLIC Schools. Should Public schools >>> grant Muslim >>>>>>>>> students preferential treatment (eg girls only classes and group > prayer >>>>>>>>> sessions? >>>>>>>> Why do you consider it preferential treatment? Schools in the United >>>>>>>> States don't hold classes on Sundays. Is that preferential > treatment for >>>>>>>> Christians? They don't hold classes on Christmas or Easter. Is that >>>>>>>> preferential treatment. Accommodating religious peculiarities is not >>>>>>>> preferential treatment. Your act as if you have no respect for other >>>>>>>> religions even though your religion has no more evidence to back it up >>>>>>>> than any other religion. You are being arrogant and are > condescending to >>>>>>>> those who don't share your religion, despite the fact that you cannot >>>>>>>> prove that your religion isn't false. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you was the principal of a high school, would you permit a > Christian >>>>>>>>> student at that high school to enter a biology class and pass out >>> a free >>>>>>>>> 32 page booklet to each student entitled, "The Bible, Science and >>>>>>>>> Creation"? >>>>>>>> There's a difference between allowing religious lies to be taught in a >>>>>>>> class and an accommodation of religious activities. You > apparently don't >>>>>>>> want to acknowledge that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You aren't at all honest in your discussions here. >>>>>>> Good points: >>>>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be > in favor >>>>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>>>> You are still being dishonest. Accommodating schedules is not the same >>>>>> thing as teaching religious doctrines in class. No one is teaching any >>>>>> Moslem doctrines in public schools. No one is going to teach so-called >>>>>> Christian doctrine either, particularly since it relies so heavily on >>>>>> lies being taught by religious sects. >>>>>> >>>>>> As we have been over many times, ID has nothing to do with science and >>>>>> everything to do with religion. If anyone ever develops scientific >>>>>> evidence to support ID then it might be considered. Until then, it is >>>>>> just a religious doctrine and forbidden in public schools. >>>>> Thanks for your post. The Muslims were allowed a special recess so they >>>>> could have a group prayer session. Would you be in favor of a special >>>>> recess for Christians so that they could have a group prayer meeting? >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>> It's not very difficult to adjust the schedule to accommodate such >>>> prayers. Why would there be a reason to object? Do you object just >>>> because they are Moslems. >>>> >>>> Didn't you pay attention to the fact that school schedules already >>>> accommodate Christians? >>> Yes--that is true. Some schools have changed the titles of the holidays so >>> that atheists will not file lawsuits. >>> >>> To answer your question: Yes, I object to preferential treatment given to >>> Moslems. If schools do grant preferential treatment to Moslems, I would >>> request the same rights for students that are members of other religions. >>> If Moslems are released for a special recess for Muslim group prayers, >>> also let the Christians be released for a special recess for their >>> Christian group prayers. If Muslim girls are allowed to have a special " >>> Moslem girls only" class, Christians should be allowed to have a special >>> "Christians only" class. >>> Is the word: reciprocity? >>> >>> >> I object to preferential treatment for Christians. The public schools >> I attended had a daily prayer, which often mentioned Jesus of Nazareth. >> There were Christmas parties, but no recognition of any religious >> celebrations. They celebrated Easter in school but not Pesach. >> Christians get out of school for their holidays, but I had to get >> special permission, and miss class to attend High Holy Day services. >> >> And your sabbath is respected, not mine. Sporting events are on Friday >> nights or Saturdays, which precludes Orthodox Jews from participating in >> sports. >> >> Then there was the abrasive "Funny, you don't look Jewish" (I have >> Central American ancestors), the routine slurs about Jews. >> >> Jason, you have no compassion for non-Christians, no consideration for >> the needs of others, and no comprehension of what is special treatment >> for Christians. You just take it for granted that your holidays are >> school holidays, that your sabbath is the only one, and that your >> religious beliefs should be the only one to get any attention in >> schools. You regard any accommodation of other religious practices as >> "special treatment." Develop some perspective, and you will grow >> spiritually and maybe even learn to walk a genuinely Christian path. > > I understand your points. You are correct. However, the rules and policies > have changed. All students are now suppose to be treated the same > regardless of their religions. Do you believe that Muslim students should > receive preferential treatment? > > It's not that simple, Jason. We all need to be treated with respect for our religious needs. That includes reasonable accommodation where possible. Treating everyone the same entails that no one should receive any special consideration - no religious holidays, no respect for any sabbath (Friday, Saturday or Sunday) and no religious garb of any sort. Those are all inequitable to some group - any group not allowed a religious holiday is not being treated fairly, any group not allowed to wear basic religious garb such as a crucifix or head covering is will be resentful. The best way IMO is to accommodate as many as reasonably possible. Allow religious garb, but no proselytizing. Allow major holidays for any religious group, and perhaps allow them only their own religions holidays - Jews and Muslims would not get Christmas as a holiday, Christians and Muslims would not get Yom Kippur, etc. And so on. The common thread is respect for all faiths and reasonable support for any where possible. Clearly the New Jersey School Board thought it right to respect the religious wishes of its Muslim community. Such respect does not reduce the rights of others, it shows a respect that strengthens everyone's religious freedom. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <YPGhi.668$eY.24@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <1183257666.501753.233250@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 6:16 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>> In article <dhkd835musc4bifgpss7uetde2bud13...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch >>>>> <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:44 -0700, in alt.atheism >>>>>> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in >>>>>> <Jason-3006071341440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence >>> and rock >>>>>>>>>>> strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is >>> an ongoing >>>>>>>>>>> project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to >>> conducting >>>>>>>>>>> research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock >>>>> strata and >>>>>>>>>>> fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. >>>>>>>>>> Non-answer. >>>>>>>>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an >>> answer. >>>>>>>> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that >>> backs it >>>>>>>> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the >>>>>>>> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. >>>>>>> One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed >>>>>>> journals are advocates of evolution. >>>>>> Not really. They are advocates of knowledge, of science, of honesty, >>>>>> something that ID/Creationists refuse to use. >>>>>>> They have a bias related to >>>>>>> scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and >>> Intelligent >>>>>>> design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of >>>>>>> creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed >>>>>>> journals. >>>>>> There are no scientific papers written by advocates of creation science >>>>>> and ID. That is why they are not published. Don't defame editors of >>>>>> science journals for the failures of the ICR, DI and other creationist >>>>>> liars. Put the blame where it belongs. >>>>> I recently posted an article that was published in a peer-reviewed jounal. >>>>> The editor and the members the peer-review committee received lots of >>>>> criticism for publishing the article. Upon request, I'll post the article >>>>> again. >>>> But the article lacked any evidence. The editor only published it for >>>> the sake of the controversy surrounding it. If you assume that every >>>> scientific paper gets published because the editor agrees with what it >>>> says then you know nothing about the scientific process. But we >>>> already knew that. >>>> >>>> Martin >>> It's impossible for you or I to know how many articles written be the >>> advocates of creation science or ID have been rejected by the editors of >>> journals. >> It's really simple - all of them. > > Except for at least one article. On the other hand, dozens or perhaps > hundreds of articles have been published in journals by advocates of > creation science. Those articles were not related to creation science or > I.D. It's unlikely the editors and members of the review boards even > knew they were advocates of creation science. > Jason > > Which articles? In any case it shows that the editors do not concern themselves with the beliefs of the science, only the quality and validity of their work. One more piece of evidence that the creationists and "intelligent design" articles fail on their merits. Quote
Guest cactus Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <sPGhi.667$eY.259@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, bm1@nonespam.com > wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <1183260014.737772.205380@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>> <phippsmartin@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>> In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin >>>>> >>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>> In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in = >>>> favor >>>>>>> of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are >>>>>>> taught Intelligent Design? >>>>>> No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school >>>>>> property. >>>>> This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: >>>>> >>>>> Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org >>>>> >>>>> The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, >>>>> California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in >>>>> unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a >>>>> defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu >>>>> and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic >>>>> instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims >>>>> time for prayers. >>>>> >>>>> A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when >>>>> she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for >>>>> prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of >>>>> Muslim girls. >>>>> >>>>> The question I must ask is this: Why aren=B9t Christian or Jewish students >>>>> accorded the same privileges in public schools as those accorded Muslims? >>>> They are. Stop pretending that they aren't. >>>> >>>>> Would a public school redesign its whole cafeteria menu to meet the >>>>> special needs of Christian students? How many schools would redesign their >>>>> menus for Jewish students? >>>> It isn't just muslims and jews that don't eat pork. Strict Buddists >>>> are vegetarians. Hindus acn eat pork but they can't eat beef. Some >>>> people are vegetarian for non-religious reasons: they believe it is >>>> better for their health not to eat and/or wrong to kill animals for >>>> food. I would be shocked if a school didn't have a separate >>>> vegetarian menu nowadays. >>>> >>>>> Morever, what public school would create an extra recess so that Christian >>>>> students could pray? The ACLU would be on that school district at >>>>> light-speed with an injunction against it. >>>> That's yet another of your lies: _any_ student is allowed to pray in >>>> school as long as _no_ student is forced to pray in school. Would you >>>> have wanted to be forced to pray to Allah? Are any Christians in >>>> America being forced to pray to Allah? Why the double standard, >>>> Jason? >>>> >>>> Martin >>> A church that has 5000 members in Podum County, Alabama has special rules >>> for all members. The Christian girls from that church can not have classes >>> with any boys. All the Christian students from that church must have a >>> group prayer sessions twice a day. The Christian children from that church >>> must eat only vegetables and fruit for lunch. >>> >>> Do you think the principal of the Podum County Elementary School and the >>> school board should establish new rules and policies for those Christian >>> children in much the same way that the principal and the school board at >>> Carver Elementary School changed the rules and policies for the Muslim >>> students? >> No, it's just one church's rules. Those rules are binding only on one >> church's members. It does not apply to other Christians, so the school >> could not make special rules without getting entangled in some very >> complicated issues. >> >>> Jason >>> >>> > > I agree--anytime a school system starts making accommodations for students > that are Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists--it could cause the > schools to get entangled in some very complicated issues. > > Reasonable accommodations will not cause problems. I do not see anything unreasonable going on with the accommodation of the Muslim students. Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:20:45 -0700, johac <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: - Refer: <jhachmann-F07E32.23204530062007@news.giganews.com> >In article <0ucc83d0219bc6bhjmbc312nef9u5eorfb@4ax.com>, > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:30:55 -0700, johac >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> - Refer: <jhachmann-C27601.23305529062007@news.giganews.com> >> >In article <l9i98398eq27mk50i9r50s7rob28epstj7@4ax.com>, >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:39:20 -0700, johac >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-10F8C1.15392028062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >In article <h1078311ckh892ma7qpjl56v0h105p40qu@4ax.com>, >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:19:06 -0700, johac >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-E4FD13.16190627062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >In article <dc648397hljrpucad3mdd3d8ub31lmd1gq@4ax.com>, >> >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:15:52 -0700, johac >> >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-DB11DE.22155226062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >> >In article <1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com>, >> >> >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac >> >> >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >> >> >In article >> >> >> >> >> ><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, >> >> >> >> >> > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" >> >> >> >> >> >> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > snip >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the >> >> >> >> >> >> > > true >> >> >> >> >> >> > > God. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > What makes your god the "true" one? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Books have been written on that subject. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the >> >> >> >> >> >true >> >> >> >> >> >god? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Of course. >> >> >> >> >> The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any >> >> >> >> >> time! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >With one thunderbolt tied behind his back. So could Odin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Odin is feeling a little thor at the moment... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Thor's kid? He should be careful. He could get hammered. >> >> >> >> >> >> His dad could drink an ocean, apparently, just on a bet. >> >> >> I imagine that the tyke will inherit his old man's capacity... >> >> > >> >> >I wouldn't want to get into a drinking contest with him. >> >> >> >> Heaven forbid! >> > >> >But Satan says: "What the hell. Why not?" >> >> S'Hades of Gray. > >Aha! So you are in league with the Devil! Little League. Satan's on first. -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:39:57 -0700, johac <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: - Refer: <jhachmann-9D2451.23395730062007@news.giganews.com> >In article <o1dc831153t79bca8qe0addiio9hpratem@4ax.com>, > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:18:12 -0700, johac >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> - Refer: <jhachmann-51A355.23181229062007@news.giganews.com> >> >In article <nai983h7frhfr6kddnhkm21qhoe9a1700g@4ax.com>, >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:44:09 -0700, johac >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-476633.15440928062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >In article <740783hjnp1rl69hncffbem3j5p90ls05v@4ax.com>, >> >> > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:17:50 -0700, johac >> >> >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> - Refer: <jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>, >> >> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com... >> >> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac >> >> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >> >>In article >> >> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, >> >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" >> >> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > snip >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true >> >> >> >> >>> > > God. >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one? >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the >> >> >> >> >>true >> >> >> >> >>god? >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Of course. >> >> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any >> >> >> >> > time! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could >> >> >> >> give >> >> >> >> Zeus a run for his money >> >> >> > >> >> >> >I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them >> >> >> >fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a >> >> >> >divine bum fight. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Is that "bum" as in "vagrant", or "bum" as in "derriere"? >> >> > >> >> >Vagrants. A few years back some idiots in this country were paying >> >> >homeless people to fight each other while being taped. The would sell >> >> >the tapes to bigger idiots who got off watching such violence. >> >> >> >> The Police will watch anything... >> > >> >Yep. They may have been the ones doing the taping. >> >> Gaffer tape... > >Gaffer tape? A traditional police method of silencing torture victims, sorry: voluntary interviewees, without leaving gag marks. -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:32:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: - Refer: <jhachmann-8217FB.23323930062007@news.giganews.com> >In article <1183197258.119270.49160@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 30, 2:29 pm, johac <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> > In article <5ekj7bF398uh...@mid.individual.net>, >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: >> > > "johac" <jhachm...@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message >> > >news:jhachmann-5CD649.15412328062007@news.giganews.com... >> > > > In article <5ehujiF385pl...@mid.individual.net>, >> > > > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> > > >> LOL! Diety Death Match? Who knows how to do claymation? >> > >> > > > LOL! I wish I knew how! I'd love to put something like that on YouTube. >> > > > :-) >> > >> > > That would be hilarious >> > >> > Heh! Heh! Tag team. Yaweh and Baal vs. Zeus and The FSM. :-) >> >> "Baal" is a hebrew word meaning "lord" that was used to refer to any >> god other than Yahweh so as far as we know the Baal that teh >> Canaanites were worshipping _was_ Zeus. > >Could be, but according to this: > >http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html > > it sounds like the Baal of the early OT was a different god. Possibly >related to Yaweh, but not the same. He might have been the son of El who >is sometimes identified with Yaweh. I don't think that Zeus got there >until the Greeks arrived, particularly after Alexander's conquest. It is my opinion that the early tribes of Israel stole the Ba'al concept and fashioned their own god from it. ("walksalone" disagrees, so I am in the throes of preparing a referenced justification for my position.) -- Quote
Guest Michael Gray Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 23:23:27 -0700, johac <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: - Refer: <jhachmann-9C667C.23232730062007@news.giganews.com> >In article <q3dc83183vrussfbg4n0uk217oqfrss1uu@4ax.com>, > Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:29:32 -0700, johac >> <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> - Refer: <jhachmann-D5E3F6.23293229062007@news.giganews.com> >> >In article <5ekj7bF398uh2U1@mid.individual.net>, >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> > >> >> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message >> >> news:jhachmann-5CD649.15412328062007@news.giganews.com... >> >> > In article <5ehujiF385pl0U1@mid.individual.net>, >> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> "johac" <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message >> >> >> news:jhachmann-5CB182.16175027062007@news.giganews.com... >> >> >> > In article <5efchvF36n37vU1@mid.individual.net>, >> >> >> > "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message >> >> >> >> news:1vj3835t86vajghq9n05jc1n7qdhe7ntud@4ax.com... >> >> >> >> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:58:27 -0700, johac >> >> >> >> > <jhachmann@remove.sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> > - Refer: <jhachmann-2EB388.15582726062007@news.giganews.com> >> >> >> >> >>In article >> >> >> >> >><Jason-2506071038350001@66-52-22-83.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>, >> >> >> >> >> Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> In article <5ea5jrF383thsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" >> >> >> >> >>> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > snip >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > > If they read their Bibles, they will know all about the true >> >> >> >> >>> > > God. >> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> >>> > What makes your god the "true" one? >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Books have been written on that subject. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I read books on Greek mythology. Does that mean that Zeus is the >> >> >> >> >>true >> >> >> >> >>god? >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Of course. >> >> >> >> > The non-existent Zeus can kick the non-existent YHWH's butt any >> >> >> >> > time! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> True, but as a long-time fan of Norse mythology, I think Odin could >> >> >> >> give >> >> >> >> Zeus a run for his money >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I don't know. Maybe we could get all the gods in an arena and let them >> >> >> > fight it out to see who's the toughest non-existent being. Sort of a >> >> >> > divine bum fight. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> LOL! Diety Death Match? Who knows how to do claymation? >> >> > >> >> > LOL! I wish I knew how! I'd love to put something like that on YouTube. >> >> > :-) >> >> >> >> That would be hilarious >> > >> >Heh! Heh! Tag team. Yaweh and Baal vs. Zeus and The FSM. :-) >> >> With Xena & Hera for spice! > >And Aphrodite (in her nightie) and Astarte! Let's Party! ding ding "Round Won" -- Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:02 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183260014.737772.205...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 10:15 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1183254646.899096.222...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 1, 3:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > In relation to Accomodating religious peculiarities--Would you be in = > > favor > > > > > of allowing Christian students to have a special class where they are > > > > > taught Intelligent Design? > > > > > No paid teacher should be involved in such an activity on school > > > > property. > > > > This excerpt is from an article that I posted earlier today: > > > > Source:http://www.tradionalvalues.org > > > > The second case involves Carver Elementary School in San Diego, > > > California. At Carver, Somali Muslim students are being catered to in > > > unusual ways. The school district has absorbed these students from a > > > defunct charter school and spent $450,000 on altering the cafeteria menu > > > and creating new class schedules so Muslims can engage in Arabic > > > instruction and prayers. An extra afternoon recess period permits Muslims > > > time for prayers. > > > > A substitute teacher who was called in to teach at Carver was shocked when > > > she saw the lesson plans, which included a special Muslim recess for > > > prayer. She was also troubled when asked to teach a segregated class of > > > Muslim girls. > > > > The question I must ask is this: Why aren=B9t Christian or Jewish students > > > accorded the same privileges in public schools as those accorded Muslims? > > > They are. Stop pretending that they aren't. > > > > Would a public school redesign its whole cafeteria menu to meet the > > > special needs of Christian students? How many schools would redesign their > > > menus for Jewish students? > > > It isn't just muslims and jews that don't eat pork. Strict Buddists > > are vegetarians. Hindus acn eat pork but they can't eat beef. Some > > people are vegetarian for non-religious reasons: they believe it is > > better for their health not to eat and/or wrong to kill animals for > > food. I would be shocked if a school didn't have a separate > > vegetarian menu nowadays. > > > > Morever, what public school would create an extra recess so that Christian > > > students could pray? The ACLU would be on that school district at > > > light-speed with an injunction against it. > > > That's yet another of your lies: _any_ student is allowed to pray in > > school as long as _no_ student is forced to pray in school. Would you > > have wanted to be forced to pray to Allah? Are any Christians in > > America being forced to pray to Allah? Why the double standard, > > Jason? > > > Martin > > A church that has 5000 members in Podum County, Alabama has special rules > for all members. The Christian girls from that church can not have classes > with any boys. All the Christian students from that church must have a > group prayer sessions twice a day. The Christian children from that church > must eat only vegetables and fruit for lunch. > > Do you think the principal of the Podum County Elementary School and the > school board should establish new rules and policies for those Christian > children in much the same way that the principal and the school board at > Carver Elementary School changed the rules and policies for the Muslim > students? Jason, Your religion is already accomodated for by the schools. Stop pretending it isn't. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:02 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183256653.290934.179...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 4:41 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence and rock > > > > >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is an ongoing > > > > >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to > conducting > > > > >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock > strata and > > > > >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > > > >> Non-answer. > > > >> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an answer. > > > > Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that backs it > > > > up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > > > > results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > > > One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > > > journals are advocates of evolution. > > > Think about why. > Because they can. It's because they have a responsibility to publish only the truth. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:10 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183257666.501753.233...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 6:16 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <dhkd835musc4bifgpss7uetde2bud13...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:41:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > > > > J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > > <Jason-3006071341440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > > > >> >> > Yes, two books have been written related to fossil evidence > and rock > > > > >> >> > strata evidence that supports Intelligent Design. There is > an ongoing > > > > >> >> > project at the Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens related to > conducting > > > > >> >> > research related to the sedimentary processes that form rock > > > strata and > > > > >> >> > fossils. Dr. Steve Austin is in charge of that project. > > > > > >> >> Non-answer. > > > > > >>> Not true--you may not have liked my answer but I DID provide an > answer. > > > > > >> Books are not science. You have not pointed to any science that > backs it > > > > >> up. Scientific papers are written for peer-reviewed journals so the > > > > >> results of the research can be tested. Books are not. > > > > > >One of the problems is that the editors and members of the peer-reviewed > > > > >journals are advocates of evolution. > > > > > Not really. They are advocates of knowledge, of science, of honesty, > > > > something that ID/Creationists refuse to use. > > > > > >They have a bias related to > > > > >scientific papers written by advocates of creation science and > Intelligent > > > > >design. As a result, the scientific papers written by advocates of > > > > >creation science and ID are usually not published in peer-reviewed > > > > >journals. > > > > > There are no scientific papers written by advocates of creation science > > > > and ID. That is why they are not published. Don't defame editors of > > > > science journals for the failures of the ICR, DI and other creationist > > > > liars. Put the blame where it belongs. > > > > I recently posted an article that was published in a peer-reviewed jounal. > > > The editor and the members the peer-review committee received lots of > > > criticism for publishing the article. Upon request, I'll post the article > > > again. > > > But the article lacked any evidence. The editor only published it for > > the sake of the controversy surrounding it. If you assume that every > > scientific paper gets published because the editor agrees with what it > > says then you know nothing about the scientific process. But we > > already knew that. > It's impossible for you or I to know how many articles written be the > advocates of creation science or ID have been rejected by the editors of > journals. And yet you will continue to argue that there is a bias even after admitting that you have no reason to believe there is one. Nice. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:16 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183256826.668483.63...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 5:34 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <Yu6dnT6MQcrGIBvbnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@sti.net>, "David V." > > > > <s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Jason wrote: > > > > > > I respect Dr. Gish. > > > > > Why would you respect a liar? Does he tell lies you want to hear? > > > > I don't believe that Dr. Gish tells lies. > > > So? Does that make anything he said true? > I don't know. Jason, like a broken watch, is accurate twice a day. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:20 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <hb7e839thprf75ls11t256h5iufqski...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 02:28:19 -0000, in alt.atheism > > Martin Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote in > > <1183256899.661910.216...@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com>: > > >On Jul 1, 5:38 am, Free Lunch <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:06:44 -0700, in alt.atheism > > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > >> <Jason-3006071306440...@66-52-22-84.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net>: > > > >> >Perhaps abiogenesis--perhaps people that have graduated from college in > > >> >the past 5 years could tell us what is being taught. I mentioned what I > > >> >was taught below. > > > >> Once again, you have a habit of repeating the same old false claims. I > > >> have no respect for you or the people who taught you those lies. > > > >What do you expect? He went to a Christian college. > > > I think you need quotation marks around 'college'. Real Christian > > colleges are members of the regional accreditation organizations. It > > appears that the one he went to was not accredited. > > The Christian college that I attended was Ferrum College. When I attended > the college, it was a 2 year Junior college. It is now a four year > college. They probably have a web site. It will probably state the name of > the accreditation organization. Don't you get it, Jason? If it was a two year college back then it's because it was no yet accredited to offer four year degrees. The fact that it is accredited now is completely besides the point. Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:24 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1183259378.971065.231...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Martin > <phippsmar...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 1, 10:07 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <1183254291.187206.297...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 1, 2:47 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > Should something be taught in a science class that has no scientific > > > > > backing? The answer is no. That is the reason that I don't believe that > > > > > abiogenesis should be taught in biology classes. > > > > > Oh, really. None of this should be taught to students then? Why > > > > not? Why the cover up? Is it because it proves you wrong? > > > > > In 1953, the Miller-Uley experiment showed that amino acids could form > > > > spontaneously from elements present in the "primorial soup". (See > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) Other > > > > experiments showed that bilipid membranes can form spontaneously. > > > > (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_bilayer) Sidney Fox's > > > > research showed that amino acids can spontaneously form protein > > > > chains. (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_W._Fox) Protein > > > > chains can then guide the formation of RNA chains just as RNA chains > > > > are known to guide the formation of protein chains. (See \http:// > > > >http://www.hhmi.org/news/lindquist2.html). German scientists have already > > > > produced molecules in the laboratory that are capable of reproducing > > > > themselves and are therefore alive. (See > > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/217054.stm). > > > > > Primative cells would have formed as a way to prevent the contents of > > > > the cell from drying out. (See > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/239787.stm > > > > ). The simplest cells would have been prokaryote cells (See > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote) which would have been the > > > > ancestors of modern bacteria and archaea while more advanced > > > > eukaryotic cells (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryotic) would > > > > have been the ancestors of modern animal, plant and fungis cells. > > > > Eukaryotic cells could have formed through a process known as viral > > > > eukaryogenesis (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis > > > > ) in which a virus forms an endosymbiosic relationship with a host > > > > prokaryote cell. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory > > > > ) Mitochondria and plastids are also believed to have arisen as a > > > > result of endosymbiosis, the evidence being that mitochondria and > > > > plastids share characteristics with bacteria cells, the only > > > > difference being that they cannot survive independent of the rest of > > > > the cell, but that's fine because human cells cannot survive > > > > independent of the rest of the body either. In both cases, the parts > > > > have evolved to depend on the whole. > > > > > See alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Major_Transitions_in_Evolution > > > > which has links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexand > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_multicellularity > > > You didn't answer the question. Thousands of paper have been > > published on abiogenesis. Why shouldn't it be taught in class? Why > > the cover up? Still no response, Jason? Martin Quote
Guest Martin Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 On Jul 1, 12:37 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <468712d0$0$8044$4c368...@roadrunner.com>, "Christopher > > Morris" <Drac...@roadrunner.com> wrote: > > "Jason" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:Jason-3006071525500001@66-52-22-96.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net... > > > In article <r9kd83h1fr830t6tot5iab126od6sdt...@4ax.com>, Free Lunch > > > <l...@nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:28:46 -0700, in alt.atheism > > >> J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in > > > It's very different. God created life from non-life. That is VERY > > > different than life forming naturally from non-life. > > > Jason in the end all people and the rest life is a bunch of chemicals that > > come together and react with one another, thus all life is made from the > > chemical reaction of nonlife. > > You could enter a college lab and find all sorts of chemicals. However, > you know that it would take lots of work to create various types of cells > from those chemicals. It's easier for me to believe that an intelligent > designer done that work than to believe it all happened naturally. It would if your "intelligent designer" actually existed. As he doesn't, no mention of it belongs in a science classroom. Oh and by the way, it's "intelligent designer did" and not "intelligent designer done". You've made this mistake before. At least you're no longer spelling "disciple" "deciple". Martin Quote
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