Guest Al Klein Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doctors >that perform abortions? Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs? > I heard about one pro-life group that carried >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been >arrested? How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor Murderer" signs? Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 3:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <Nl_2i.631$C96....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, > > b...@nonespam.com wrote: > > Martin Phipps wrote: > > > On May 17, 9:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >> In article <1179357540.570843.290...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > >> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>> On May 17, 2:03 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >>>> You do not appear to care about the babies that have been killed and > > >>>> unless I missed it, did not even mention the damage that has been done to > > >>>> women that have had abortions. I have heard some of those women > tell their > > >>>> stories on Christian radio talk shows. I have heard them tell their > > >>>> stories while giving their testimonies in church services. I am against > > >>>> abortion but realize that abortion is legal. Since it is legal, I hope > > >>>> that in the months and years to come that women will use the so called > > >>>> abortion pill (morning after pill) during the first week of pregnancy. > > >>>> Hopefully, this will cause many less women to develop severe > depression as > > >>>> a result of abortions. I hope that it will also cause thousands of > > >>>> abortion clinics to close down and abortion doctors to go out of > > >> business. ... > > > >>> Jason, do you realize that you are a patently evil man? Is this how > > >>> you plan to go to heaven? By having clinics shut down? > > >> Please re-read my post. The ABORTION clinics would close down because they > > >> would not have any customers. The reason they would have no customers is > > >> because of the abortion pill (morning after pill). As you know, the > > >> morning after pills means that abortions inside ABORTION clinics would not > > >> be needed. Of course, some clinics would probably remain open. I have read > > >> articles indicating that the number of clinical abortions is already > > >> starting to drop as a result of the abortion pill. I am against abortion > > >> but know that it's legal. Since it is legal for women to have abortions--I > > >> believe the morning after pill is far superior to a clinical abortion. Do > > >> you agree or disagree? > > > > And if the crime rate continues to drop then we won't need as many > > > homocide cops. So what? It's not like we won't have police stations > > > or doctor's clinics in the future. I don't understand why you think > > > it is a good thing for clinics to shut down. Correct me if I'm wrong > > > but I would imagine most (if not all)clinics where abortions are > > > performed also perform other services too. The big problem here is > > > that where you see "big business" the rest of us see "medical > > > procedure". Doctors who perform abortions are not _just_ "abortion > > > doctors": they are qualified practicianers with medical degrees. I > > > therefore still think it is patently evil of you to gleefully > > > anticipate the shutting down of their clinics. > > I think his view is that the women without access to medical services > > will die in a virtuous state, just as they did during the Middle Ages. > > Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that "managed" > an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that > abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion > clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the clinic is a > "full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many > procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an > "abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that > performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an > abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now > an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what > goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion > doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a room > and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation. All that means is that women who want abortions should have the abortions during the first trimester when the "baby" is little more than a collection of cells and it is a relatively simple procedure: it is, in fact, safer for the to have an early abortion. The argument that the fetus or "baby" is not alive before it is born is disingenious because after three months the fetus does have an active brain and is already moving around: if the mother has a miscarriage after three months then the baby will continue to move until it stops moving (ie "dies") so it is my personal opinion that the "baby" would already have been alive at that point. The solution, as far as I am concerned, would be to keep the "abortion clinics" open so that all women have easy access to abortion and then only discourage abortion for women who have already passed into the second trimester: an outright ban for second trimester abortions would be out of the question because it is still a medical decision (the "baby" is still dependent on the mother who may have legitimate medical reasons for not conyinuing with the pregnancy) and not just a moral one. A ban on third trimester abortions would be redundant because few doctors would recommend such a procedure anyway. Martin Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On 17 May 2007 12:34:29 -0700, gudloos@yahoo.com wrote: >On 17 Maj, 21:14, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> I am against all abortions except to save the life of the mother. >Why should that be an exception? Don't you believe the foetus is a >baby? It's actually a coherent position. If the mother dies during pregnancy the fetus also dies. If an abortion is performed, ONLY the fetus dies. The ONLY difference is whether the mother lives. Of course most anti-choicers don't see it that way. Quote
Guest Don Kresch Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:07:11 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) let us all know that: >In article <fuap43loh53g9d20rt0h3bno3ehovi00vs@4ax.com>, Don Kresch ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:27:56 -0700, Jason@nospam.com >> (Jason) let us all know that: >> >> >> >Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that "managed" >> >an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that >> >abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion >> >clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the clinic is a >> >"full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many >> >procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an >> >"abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that >> >performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an >> >abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now >> >an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what >> >goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion >> >doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a room >> >and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation. >> >jason >> > >> Notice how you never name names. Or cite book titles. >> >> There's a reason for that: you either make it all up, or you >> heard if from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from >> someone's brother's cousin's former roommate. >> > >I no longer have a copy of the book or even remember the title. Upon >request, I could probably find out the name of the author but the book is >out of print. > IOW: you made it up. Don --- aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert. "No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another" Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <f23q43litu3fem2k4rf71dsvhlaup7v7c7@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:14:42 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >I am against all abortions except to save the life of the mother. I fully > >realize that abortion is legal. Since it is legal, I believe the best time > >to do abortions is in the first trimester. > > That's when almost all elective abortions ARE done. It's when > complications occur later, or when a young woman has to get the > court's approval and the process drags on for a few months, that most > second-trimester abortions occur. > > Most third-trimester abortions are performed because the mother's > health is at risk, the fetus wouldn't survive or the fetus dies in > utero. > > >That's the reason I hope that > >the morning after pill becomes the primary method of abortion. > > It's not a panacea. By the time a lot of women realize that they're > pregnant, it's too late. > > >That should reduce the numbers of women that suffer severe depression as a result of > >abortions. > > There are two reasons for the depression - postpartum, which has very > little to do with abortion, and depression caused by losing the fetus, > even if it's an elective abortion. (Contrary to what passes for > thought on the part of the religious Reich, most women aren't callous > enough to consider an abortion just another form of birth control.) > > >In most cities, there will still be abortion clinics for those > >women failed to take the morning after pill. In other cities, there will > >always be some doctors that perform abortions in their offices or the > >local hospitals. > > And, in some places, the only choices are carry to term or a wire > hanger, since no hospital or doctor will perform abortions, there are > no clinics and the only available pharmacy won't sell "abortion > pills". You made some excellent points. There is at least one state in the Bible Belt that only has one abortion clinic. The morning after pill is about the only option in that state. Of course, there may be doctors in that state that perform abortions in their offices or the local hospitals. The pro-life groups in those states appear to be winning the battle. Jason Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 4:28 am, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote: > [snips] > > On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:25:32 -0700, Jason wrote: > > I agree that abortions should only be legal during the first three months. > > The only exception would be if the mother's life was in danger. > > Why? On what purely objective basis do you draw the line at three months, > except for life-threatening cases? Why not 3.5 months? 4 months? Why > not if it isn't life-threatening, but has other negative aspects - the > fetus is a product of rape, or abuse for example? > > Why the arbitrary "thus far, no further"? Actually, it isn't completely arbitrary. There's a big difference between a fetus at two months and a fetus at three months: at two months, the baby is a collection of cells only half the size of my thumb and at three months, the fetus looks like a tiny baby, with a head, hands and feet, and it moves around on its own, presumably volentarally. There's no dispute between Jason and I on that point. Where we differ is 1) whether there is anything morally wrong whatsover with early term abortions 2) whether or not closing down clinics and putting doctors out of work could possibly be seen as a good thing 3) whether or not women should retain the right to choose abortions after three months and if anything other than discouraging abortions after that point (as opposed to an outright ban, which would be terribly unreasonable) would be appropriate. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <1179455151.437398.70870@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 18, 3:27 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > In article <Nl_2i.631$C96....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, > > > > b...@nonespam.com wrote: > > > Martin Phipps wrote: > > > > On May 17, 9:21 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >> In article <1179357540.570843.290...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > >> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >>> On May 17, 2:03 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >>>> You do not appear to care about the babies that have been killed and > > > >>>> unless I missed it, did not even mention the damage that has been done to > > > >>>> women that have had abortions. I have heard some of those women > > tell their > > > >>>> stories on Christian radio talk shows. I have heard them tell their > > > >>>> stories while giving their testimonies in church services. I am against > > > >>>> abortion but realize that abortion is legal. Since it is legal, I hope > > > >>>> that in the months and years to come that women will use the so called > > > >>>> abortion pill (morning after pill) during the first week of pregnancy. > > > >>>> Hopefully, this will cause many less women to develop severe > > depression as > > > >>>> a result of abortions. I hope that it will also cause thousands of > > > >>>> abortion clinics to close down and abortion doctors to go out of > > > >> business. ... > > > > > >>> Jason, do you realize that you are a patently evil man? Is this how > > > >>> you plan to go to heaven? By having clinics shut down? > > > >> Please re-read my post. The ABORTION clinics would close down because they > > > >> would not have any customers. The reason they would have no customers is > > > >> because of the abortion pill (morning after pill). As you know, the > > > >> morning after pills means that abortions inside ABORTION clinics would not > > > >> be needed. Of course, some clinics would probably remain open. I have read > > > >> articles indicating that the number of clinical abortions is already > > > >> starting to drop as a result of the abortion pill. I am against abortion > > > >> but know that it's legal. Since it is legal for women to have abortions--I > > > >> believe the morning after pill is far superior to a clinical abortion. Do > > > >> you agree or disagree? > > > > > > And if the crime rate continues to drop then we won't need as many > > > > homocide cops. So what? It's not like we won't have police stations > > > > or doctor's clinics in the future. I don't understand why you think > > > > it is a good thing for clinics to shut down. Correct me if I'm wrong > > > > but I would imagine most (if not all)clinics where abortions are > > > > performed also perform other services too. The big problem here is > > > > that where you see "big business" the rest of us see "medical > > > > procedure". Doctors who perform abortions are not _just_ "abortion > > > > doctors": they are qualified practicianers with medical degrees. I > > > > therefore still think it is patently evil of you to gleefully > > > > anticipate the shutting down of their clinics. > > > > I think his view is that the women without access to medical services > > > will die in a virtuous state, just as they did during the Middle Ages. > > > > Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that "managed" > > an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that > > abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion > > clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the clinic is a > > "full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many > > procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an > > "abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that > > performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an > > abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now > > an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what > > goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion > > doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a room > > and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation. > > All that means is that women who want abortions should have the > abortions during the first trimester when the "baby" is little more > than a collection of cells and it is a relatively simple procedure: it > is, in fact, safer for the to have an early abortion. The argument > that the fetus or "baby" is not alive before it is born is > disingenious because after three months the fetus does have an active > brain and is already moving around: if the mother has a miscarriage > after three months then the baby will continue to move until it stops > moving (ie "dies") so it is my personal opinion that the "baby" would > already have been alive at that point. The solution, as far as I am > concerned, would be to keep the "abortion clinics" open so that all > women have easy access to abortion and then only discourage abortion > for women who have already passed into the second trimester: an > outright ban for second trimester abortions would be out of the > question because it is still a medical decision (the "baby" is still > dependent on the mother who may have legitimate medical reasons for > not conyinuing with the pregnancy) and not just a moral one. A ban on > third trimester abortions would be redundant because few doctors would > recommend such a procedure anyway. > > Martin Martin, It appears that we agree that it's best to do abortions in the first trimester. I don't have any respect for any doctors that earn their entire incomes from abortions. However, I do have respect for doctors that do abortions in emergency situations such as saving the life of the mother. My doctor's nurse told me that my doctor does not do abortions. jason Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <mg4q435t6fji1qvqkhfj4o29fjssdnl4q0@4ax.com>, Don Kresch <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:07:11 -0700, Jason@nospam.com > (Jason) let us all know that: > > >In article <fuap43loh53g9d20rt0h3bno3ehovi00vs@4ax.com>, Don Kresch > ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote: > > > >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:27:56 -0700, Jason@nospam.com > >> (Jason) let us all know that: > >> > >> > >> >Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that "managed" > >> >an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that > >> >abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion > >> >clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the clinic is a > >> >"full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many > >> >procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an > >> >"abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that > >> >performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an > >> >abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now > >> >an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what > >> >goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion > >> >doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a room > >> >and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation. > >> >jason > >> > > >> Notice how you never name names. Or cite book titles. > >> > >> There's a reason for that: you either make it all up, or you > >> heard if from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from > >> someone's brother's cousin's former roommate. > >> > > > >I no longer have a copy of the book or even remember the title. Upon > >request, I could probably find out the name of the author but the book is > >out of print. > > > IOW: you made it up. I found it: Sue Hertz, author of Caught in the Crossfire: A Year on Abortion's Front Line, documents what she saw in and at one busy abortion clinic: "It was easy to shrug off an aborted pregnancy as nothing more than a sack of blood and globs of tissue Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 5:56 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <pP23i.8400$2v1.4...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, > b...@nonespam.com wrote: > > Jason wrote: > > > In article <5y_2i.637$C96....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, > > > b...@nonespam.com wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > > >>> In article <87jn43lkl3i3vjasj89539j4gq7alv1...@4ax.com>, Al Klein > > >>> <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > >>>> On Wed, 16 May 2007 18:35:07 -0700, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >>>>> It's my guess that lots of them will close down but in each > > >>>>> city several will remain open for business. > > >>>> There are large parts of the population that don't live in cities. In > > >>>> some of those small towns, the SOLE doctor doesn't believe in > > >>>> abortion, even to save the woman's life. Close the abortion clinics > > >>>> and some women may face 8 hour (or more) drives to the nearest place > > >>>> they can obtain an abortion. > > > >>>> And, if the only pharmacy in town, and in nearby towns, refuses to > > >>>> sell the morning after pill (which is quite a common practice among > > >>>> pharmacies owned by, or manned by, some Christians), same problem. > > >>> Good points. People in some of the southern states (Bible Belt) already > > >>> have these sorts of problems. I read about one city that only had one > > >>> abortion clinic and it was almost always surrounded (during business > > >>> hours) with pro-life protesters. > > > >> And yet you consider it a "triumph" when clinics are shut down. You > > >> can't have it both ways - you are acting hypocritical. > > > >> Be honest: just come out and say that you do not oppose early abortions. > > >> We'll help where we can if you get in trouble with your lying preachers. > > > > I am against all abortions except to save the life of the mother. I fully > > > realize that abortion is legal. Since it is legal, I believe the best time > > > to do abortions is in the first trimester. > > > So you oppose abortion in the event of rape or incest? > > > That's the reason I hope that > > > the morning after pill becomes the primary method of abortion. That should > > > reduce the numbers of women that suffer severe depression as a result of > > > abortions. > > > Depression is primarily due to hormones. It can occur after a birth or a > > miscarriage. Depression after a pregnancy ends is no more inevitable > > than a broken nose. > > > In most cities, there will still be abortion clinics for those > > > women failed to take the morning after pill. > > > That is becoming less and less true as the reproduction fascists force > > the closing of more and more clinics where abortions are performed. > > > In other cities, there will > > > always be some doctors that perform abortions in their offices or the > > > local hospitals. > > > No that is not true; the reproduction fascists are trying to shut them > > down by picketing, by publishing their names on websites and advocating > > their murder. > > > We have to protect the rights of pregnant women just as we do the rights > > of sexual and religious minorities. A threat to any of them is a threat > > to all of us. > > Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be > allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doctors > that perform abortions? I heard about one pro-life group that carried > signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed > abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been > arrested? Actually, there is such a thing as harassment. This is against the law. The same issue gets brought up by celebrities facing paparazzi: there are limits to which you can interfere with a person's life before your activity becomes illegal. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <4h3q43h64tgggeh816im12husij76kg0kk@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be > >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doctors > >that perform abortions? > > Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around > outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs? > > > I heard about one pro-life group that carried > >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed > >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been > >arrested? > > How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor > Murderer" signs? You failed to answer my questions. Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 9:33 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > <snip> > > > > > Did it ever opccur to you that perhaps NONE of the world's religions > > > > are true? Why do you feel obliged to have to pick one? > > > > If you have ever studied the history of Indians and various isolated > > > groups of people in Africa, you would know that they believed in a God or > > > Gods. The reason is because they knew (without ever being told) that when > > > they died --that is was the beginning of a new life in heaven. That led > > > them to believe that God or Gods were watching over them. My parents were > > > Christians and most all of my friends were Christians. I was raised in the > > > mountains of Virginia which is part of the Bible Belt. Just like the > > > Indians and Africans that lived in the 1600's, I feel the same way they > > > felt--That God is watching over me and that I will have a better life in > > > heaven. Back to your question: No--it has never occurred to me that none > > > of the religions are true. I picked the best one that I could find and I > > > do not regret my decision. > > > Let me rephrase my question. Did it ever occur to you that atheists > > might be more enlightened than those who believe on the superstitions > > passed down from centuries ago? > > No, I know that is what most atheists believe but I believe they are > wrong. There are lots of Christian college professors; Christian medical > doctors and Christians involved in many other professions. They are just > as enlightened as any of the atheists involved in any of those > professions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence "According to a study by Paul Bell, published in the Mensa Magazine in 2002, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. Analyzing 43 studies carried out since 1927, Bell found that all but four reported such a connection, and he concluded that "the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold 'beliefs' of any kind."[1] A survey published in Nature in 1998 confirms that belief in a personal God or afterlife is at an all time low among the members of the National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of which believed in a personal God as compared to more than 85% of the US general population.[2]" <a lot of stuff snipped> What you don't seem to understand, Jason, is that the idea of late term abortion sickens me (and in fact most people) on many levels but the question is what does one do about it? Outlaw all abortions or encourage women to have abortions earlier so that it becomes a painless procedure for EVERYONE involved? Need I remind you again that I was adopted and that I could have been aborted myself? Martin Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 10:25 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be > >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doctors > >that perform abortions? > > Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around > outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs? > > > I heard about one pro-life group that carried > >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed > >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been > >arrested? > > How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor > Murderer" signs? I think most people would be inclined to get a baseball bat and start swinging. In the US, it would even be possible for most people to take out a gun and start shooting. I truly admire the restraint that the doctors display, and yet I can't help but think that these nazis would just be getting what they deserved. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <1179456701.466328.86850@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 5=A4=EB18=A4=E9, =A4W=A4=C83=AE=C956=A4=C0, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrot= > e: > > In article <1179412199.475323.148...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hatte...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On May 17, 1:39 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > In article <1179369893.911685.259...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Ma= > rtin > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On May 17, 5:45 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > In article <1179344281.193023.30...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>= > ,Hatter > > > > > > > > <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > But other systems of Religion have prophosies that have come tr= > ue in > > > > > > > later stories of those relgions. How Achilles would die, or the= > fall > > > > > > > of troy for example. Several event in Roman history were fortol= > d by > > > > > > > the oracle at Delphi...there are numberous examples. > > > > > > > Most of them not Jahweh related. > > > > > > > > > Which brings us back to why do you believe your texts of Jahweh= > , but > > > > > > > not these texts that also had tales of things fortold? > > > > > > > > Because many of the prophesies have come true is one of the reaso= > ns. I > > > > > > took a course in college related to the major religions in the Wo= > rld. It > > > > > > was my conclusion that Christianity was far superior to any of > > those other > > > > > > religions. The fact that my parents were Christians may also have > > played a > > > > > > role. > > > > > > > Did it ever opccur to you that perhaps NONE of the world's religions > > > > > are true? Why do you feel obliged to have to pick one? > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > Martin, > > > > If you have ever studied the history of Indians and various isolated > > > > groups of people in Africa, you would know that they believed in a Go= > d or > > > > Gods. The reason is because they knew (without ever being told) that = > when > > > > they died --that is was the beginning of a new life in heaven. That l= > ed > > > > them to believe that God or Gods were watching over them. My parents = > were > > > > Christians and most all of my friends were Christians. I was raised i= > n the > > > > mountains of Virginia which is part of the Bible Belt. Just like the > > > > Indians and Africans that lived in the 1600's, I feel the same way th= > ey > > > > felt--That God is watching over me and that I will have a better life= > in > > > > heaven. Back to your question: No--it has never occurred to me that n= > one > > > > of the religions are true. I picked the best one that I could find an= > d I > > > > do not regret my decision. I don't worry about dying. It's my guess t= > hat > > > > many atheists will decide to become Christians when their doctors tell > > > > them a have a disease that will kill them in the near future. There a= > re no > > > > atheist in fox holes. > > > > Jason- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > That the fear of death is universal, and people wish to deny that very > > > VERY uncomfortable fact does not mean there is a god. Furthermore the > > > numberous and varied nature of deities very much implies Yahweh is the > > > same as the other models: a myth. > > > > > In fact I believe it is the strongest case against belief in Yahweh. > > > If all cultures across the globe had the exact same diety(similar > > > characteristics) and sets of moral laws, regardless of contact....that > > > would be strong evidence for God. > > > > I disagree. I believe that God has spoken to people in all parts of the > > World. That's the reason that most religions have established laws that in > > many cases are very similar to the laws in the 10 commandments. > > We've been through this already, Jason. Hammurabi wrote 282 laws back > around 1760 BC. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi > and http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM ) These laws predate the > time of the historical Pharoah Ahmose (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahm= > ose_I > ) so there's a good chance that the ten commandments simply > represented a memory of these laws from the point of view of former > slaves (which the Hebrews would have been under either the Egyptians > or Sumerians). > > > I=2E I am the Lord your God > II. Thou shall have no other gods before me. > III. Thou shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God. > IV. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. > > Law #103 > If, while on the journey, an enemy take away from him anything > that > he had, the broker shall swear by God [Anu?] and be free of > obligation. > (See also 106, 107, 120, 126 and 249 for other examples of oaths made > to Anu.) > > As for the Sabbath, there was no Sabbath in Egypt or Sumer and slaves > wouldn't have been entitled to weekends off even if there were. > > > V=2E Honor your parents > > Law #195 > If a son strike his father, his hands shall be hewn off. > > > VI. Thou shall not murder > > Law #153 > If the wife of one man on account of another man has their mates > (her husband and the other man's wife) murdered, both of them shall > be > impaled. > > Law #252. > If he kill a man's slave, he shall pay one-third of a mina. > > > VII. Thou shall not commit adultery. > > Law #129 > If a man's wife be surprised (in flagrante delicto) with another > man, both shall be tied and thrown into the water, but the husband > may > pardon his wife and the king his slaves. > > > VIII. Thou shall not steal > > Law #6 > If any one steal the property of a temple or of the court, he shall > be put to death, and also the one who receives the stolen thing from > him shall be put to death. > > Law #253 > If any one agree with another to tend his field, give him seed, > entrust a yoke of oxen to him, and bind him to cultivate the field, > if > he steal the corn or plants, and take them for himself, his hands > shall be hewn off. > > Law #259 > If any one steal a water-wheel from the field, he shall pay five > shekels in money to its owner. > > Law #260 > If any one steal a shadduf (used to draw water from the river or > canal) or a plow, he shall pay three shekels in money. > > > IX. Thou shall not bear false witness. > > Law #127 > If any one "point the finger" (slander) at a sister of a god or > the > wife of any one, and can not prove it, this man shall be taken before > the judges and his brow shall be marked. (by cutting the skin, or > perhaps hair.) > > > X=2E You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet > your > neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor > his > ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's > > Law #130 > If a man violate the wife (betrothed or child-wife) of another man, > who has never known a man, and still lives in her father's house, and > sleep with her and be surprised, this man shall be put to death, but > the wife is blameless. > > Granted, it's not the exact same law, but the Code of Hammurabi was > intended as not just simply a list of commandments but as a legal > system: there's no way to convict anyone of "coveting"; he'd actually > have to be caught "violating". > > > The argument works both ways of course: where the Code of Hummurabi is > similar to the Ten Commandments then we can argue that the Ten > Commndments were inspired by the Code of Hummarabi: where the laws > differ one could equally well ask why your god would tell Moses one > thing and Hummurabi something else. In particular, one could very > well ask Moses what happened to the _other_ three hundred > commandments. > > Martin Martin, My theory is that God spoke to Hummurabi, Moses and various other people at different times in history. If my theory is correct, it's the reason that many religions have rules that are similar to the 10 commandents and the Code of Hummurabi. You mentioned some differences between the Code of Hammarabi and the 10 Commandments. The reason might be that God gave different messages to different groups of people. God even gave different messages to the Jews over the years. You may want to do a study on the various covenants mentioned in the Old Testament. There are similarities and differences between the various covenants. The most radical covenant was the New Covenant which is discussed in the New Testament. It was so radical that the Jewish People conspired with the Romans to kill the person (Jesus) that delivered the New Covenant message and most of the Jewish people still that have not adopted it. Jason Quote
Guest George Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 4:40 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Martin, > My theory is that God spoke to Hummurabi, Moses and various other people > at different times in history. Bullshit. You don't even know the 'god' that Hammurabi invoked when he had his laws carved do you.... Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 12:19 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Sue Hertz, author of Caught in the Crossfire: A Year on Abortion's Front > Line, documents what she saw in and at one busy abortion clinic: > > "It was easy to shrug off an aborted pregnancy as nothing more than a > sack of blood and globs of tissue as many pro-choice activists did if one > never saw fetal remains, or products of conception (POC) as they were > known in medical circles. But the nurses, medical assistants, and doctors > who worked inside procedure rooms...knew that an eleven week old POC > harbored tiny arms and legs and feet with toes. At twelve weeks, those > tiny hands had tiny nails. Although the fetal head was too small at this > stage to withstand the evacuation machine's suction, pieces of face a nose > and mouth, or a black eye...were sometimes found in the aftermath...Later > abortions spawned even more gruesome fetal remains...the head did not come > out whole during the evacuation, but the legs and arms and rib cage made > it through intact. The hand of a second trimester fetus, as a Pre-term > doctor described it, seemed big enough to shake." This is consistent with what almost everybody has been saying. (The person who implied that a second or third trimester fetus is not a baby was being disingenius.) On the other hand, I saw an ultrasound of my new baby at eight weeks and there were no hands or feet that could be made out: this is consistent with the above quote which implies that they don't appear until the eleventh week. In any case, this is something that can be explained to a pregnant woman thinking about having an abortion: an ultrasound would be redundant if she already knows what to expect. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <1179456885.796001.154110@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 5=A4=EB18=A4=E9, =A4W=A4=C84=AE=C901=A4=C0, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrot= > e: > > In article <1179404162.486466.159...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Hatte...@gmail.com wrote: > > <snip> > > > > Retroactive intrpretation of poetic language is an easy way out. You > > > can take a fictional universe...such as the one from the X-men comic > > > books/movies and show how the passages of Nostradomas or the Bible > > > predict those purely fictional elements. > > > > > I'm guessing the course was run by a Christian, so the information you > > > were given was already biased. > > > > > I think it is the last thing you mentioned that is the biggest > > > influence. > > > > > Your parents were Christian, Your culture is predominently Christian, > > > The course on major religions was probably taught by a Christian. > > > These three things do not equal it being correct or superior to > > > anything else, other than in a subjective manner. > > > > > However, I want to thank you for remaining honest, thoughtful, and > > > calm. > > > > You are welcome. Yes--the professor was a Christian. Believe it or not, in > > those days (1972) we were taught that the Muslim Religion was based on > > peace and love. > > You were taught wrong. The word "jihad" means "holy war" and Moslems > have been fighting holy wars since the time of Mohammed. There's > nothing particularly peaceful about the Moslem religion. > > Martin Martin, You are correct. My professor only spent about two weeks on each of the world religions so left out lots of important stuff. The Muslims have always wanted to take over the World. They may succeed if Hillary Clinton is elected and Democrats gain control over both houses of Congress. The Democrats plan to declare surrender to the Muslims in Iraq. The Muslims can't wait to take over Israel and eventually the USA. I have read that their next target is Spain. Jason Jason Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 12:21 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <4h3q43h64tgggeh816im12husij76kg...@4ax.com>, Al Klein > > > > > > <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote: > > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be > > >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doctors > > >that perform abortions? > > > Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around > > outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs? > > > > I heard about one pro-life group that carried > > >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed > > >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been > > >arrested? > > > How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor > > Murderer" signs? > > You failed to answer my questions. Actually he answered you very well. Martin Quote
Guest Jason Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 In article <1179457650.075850.242490@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Martin Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 5=A4=EB18=A4=E9, =A4W=A4=C84=AE=C926=A4=C0, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrot= > e: > > In article <1179392465.463015.151...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > On 16 Maj, 20:28, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > In article <1179314767.865501.136...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Ma= > rtin > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > So your original statement that you I "heard a preacher say that it > > > > > [the net worth of Planned Parenthood] is over 1 billion dollars" was > > > > > that you lying or you making an honest mistake? Because either way= > it > > > > > hurts your argument and makes it harder for us to believe anything = > you > > > > > say. > > > > > It was an honest mistake. I believe lots of people lied to me in this > > > > thread or actually believed the words at the Planned Parenthood websi= > te > > > > that were probably written by a person that has a degree in Public > > > > Relations. The truth is that Planned Parenthood derives millions of > > > > dollars per year as a direct result of abortions. > > > > > The fact is that you have no evidence to back that up, therefore > > > saying it amounts to a lie. > > > > Visit the Planned Parenthood website. I seem to recall (and could be wrong > > since my memory is not perfect) that at least 3 percent of their profits > > were derived from abortions. Since there total assets are $52,668,607, > > figure out how much money was derived from abortions. The figure would be > > higher if you used the figures from their worldride operations. > > The $53 million figure is for their National (New York) office. > Nationally, their assets total $725 million but there is a difference > between "assets" and "income". (Assets include money in the bank as > well as buildings and equipment owned by the charity.) Unfortunately > I am away from my office right now and cannot read pdf files on this > computer but you might want to check page 24 of > http://www.plannedparenthoodrx.com/annualreport/report-04.pdf yourself > and see where their money comes from. They are actually very specific > about where money comes from (specifying what money comes from > services and what money comes from donations). > > Anyway, the point is that your preacher was claiming that Planned > Parenthood was a business which made money from abortions. He was > lying: Planned Parenthood is a charity that counsels women about a > wide range of options regarding conception, childbirth, contraception > and abortion and it relies on donations to keep going. > > Martin Martin, When you get back to the office, find out how much money Planned Parenthood made from abortions. I don't know whether or not the preacher was lying since I don't know how he derived his figures. As you well know, it's very easy to get figures to say what a person wants them to say. For example, adding the income from the past 30 years to produce a figure of one billion dollars. Jason Quote
Guest Martin Phipps Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On May 18, 12:48 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <1179456885.796001.154...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin > > > > > > Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On 5=A4=EB18=A4=E9, =A4W=A4=C84=AE=C901=A4=C0, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrot= > > e: > > > In article <1179404162.486466.159...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Hatte...@gmail.com wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > > Retroactive intrpretation of poetic language is an easy way out. You > > > > can take a fictional universe...such as the one from the X-men comic > > > > books/movies and show how the passages of Nostradomas or the Bible > > > > predict those purely fictional elements. > > > > > I'm guessing the course was run by a Christian, so the information you > > > > were given was already biased. > > > > > I think it is the last thing you mentioned that is the biggest > > > > influence. > > > > > Your parents were Christian, Your culture is predominently Christian, > > > > The course on major religions was probably taught by a Christian. > > > > These three things do not equal it being correct or superior to > > > > anything else, other than in a subjective manner. > > > > > However, I want to thank you for remaining honest, thoughtful, and > > > > calm. > > > > You are welcome. Yes--the professor was a Christian. Believe it or not, in > > > those days (1972) we were taught that the Muslim Religion was based on > > > peace and love. > > > You were taught wrong. The word "jihad" means "holy war" and Moslems > > have been fighting holy wars since the time of Mohammed. There's > > nothing particularly peaceful about the Moslem religion. > > You are correct. My professor only spent about two weeks on each of the > world religions so left out lots of important stuff. The Muslims have > always wanted to take over the World. They may succeed if Hillary Clinton > is elected and Democrats gain control over both houses of Congress. The > Democrats plan to declare surrender to the Muslims in Iraq. The Muslims > can't wait to take over Israel and eventually the USA. I have read that > their next target is Spain. The best way to deal with Moslems is to tell them the truth: that all religion is nonsense. At any case, I thought Christians were supposed to be opposed to war? Why is it atheists that are the ones insisting we "turn the other cheek"? It isn't even as if the Iraqis were responsible for 9/11 anyway: 19 out of 20 of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian; Osama Bin Laden was Saudi Arabian. The invasion of Iraq made no sense: it is as though George W Bush wants to bring about Armaggedon and is actively trying to bring it about. Martin Quote
Guest gudloos@yahoo.com Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 On 17 Maj, 22:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > <snip> > > Jason wrote: > > > > > > > > Please tell me what lie that I told? I made an honest mistake. An honest > > > mistake is different than a lie. I still don't remember the exact words of > > > the television preacher. I don't take notes when I listen to a sermon. > > > Jason > > > Jason, we just can't take your word for anything anymore. What > > difference does it make if you made an honest mistake or if you > > deliberately set out to deceive? I would hope that in the future you > > can get your facts straight. > > > Frankly, when you say "I believe lots of people lied to me in this > > thread" the impression I get is that you are arguing that it is okay > > for you to lie because other people are lying too. I hope I am wrong > > but I see no other reason for you to use the classic "But they've lied > > too" argument if you are not admitting to (knowingly or unknowingly) > > posting lies. Perhaps you can tell us what lies you've been told on > > this thread. > > > Martin > > Martin, > You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people lied so > therefore it's okay for me to lie". > The main lie that I have heard is in relation to Planned Parenthood. > Various posters have told me that abortions are an insignificant part of > their operation. I have no doubt that the people that told me that > information derived it from the Planned Parenthood website. That > information at that site was probably written by a person or persons that > have college degrees in the field of public relations. Almost all large > companies and charity organizations have people like that on their staffs. > I have received form letters from those sorts of people. Planned > Parenthood derives millions of dollars per year as a result of abortions. > Does Planned Parenthood offer other services--the answer is YES. > I have also noticed that many of the people that responded to my posts > seem to think that abortions do no harm to women. One poster indicated > that only a very small number of women suffer severe depression as a > result of abortions. I believe that is a lie but have no surveys for > proof. >From Science Daily a quote from their article discussing a study of abortion depression: "The study involved 1,247 US women who aborted or delivered an unwanted first pregnancy between 1970 and 1992. The women were interviewed over several years to examine the relation between pregnancy outcome and later depression. Terminating compared with delivering an unwanted first pregnancy was not directly related to risk of depression. Instead, women who delivered before 1980 had a significantly higher risk of depression than all other groups. " http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051029100018.htm >I believe that over half of the woman that have had abortions > suffer from severe depression problems--esp. if the abortions were > performed during the second or third trimesters. You believe wrong. Quote
Guest Charles & Mambo Duckman Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 Jason wrote: > I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now > an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what > goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion > doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a room > and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation. > jason And I heard that the doctors eat the baby with some fava beans and throw the bones to dogs. -- Come down off the cross We can use the wood Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House Quote
Guest Charles & Mambo Duckman Posted May 18, 2007 Posted May 18, 2007 Jason wrote: > You are welcome. Yes--the professor was a Christian. Believe it or not, in > those days (1972) we were taught that the Muslim Religion was based on > peace and love. That has all changed. That religion has been corrupted by > people that want to take over the world. You forgot to say "I heard a preacher say." -- Come down off the cross We can use the wood Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House Quote
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