Evolution is Just Junk Science

May 18, 2007

"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

snip

> Martin,

> It appears that we agree that it's best to do abortions in the first

> trimester. I don't have any respect for any doctors that earn their entire

> incomes from abortions.

I'm sure they don't care.

--

Robyn

Resident Witchypoo

BAAWA Knight!

#1557

May 18, 2007

"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

in message

news:Jason-1805070140390001@66-52-22-21.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

> In article <1179471115.012608.35160@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote:

>

>> On 17 Maj, 22:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>> > <snip>

snip

> I don't change my beliefs based on one study. For example, if I posted a

> study that done by a pro-life organization that showed that 50 percent of

> the women that had abortions suffered from severe depression--would you

> believe the survey results?

Maybe - Maybe not.

I also wouldn't care.

I'm sure some women do feel depressed after having an abortion. So what?

That's they're problem.

--

Robyn

Resident Witchypoo

BAAWA Knight!

#1557

May 18, 2007

Jason wrote:

> In article <1179472005.049946.225150@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,

> gudloos@yahoo.com wrote:

>

>> On 17 Maj, 22:30, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

>>> Jason wrote:

>>>> In article <1179392300.841908.294...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

>>>> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

>>>>> On 16 Maj, 20:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>>>>>> In article

> <1179316001.502902.218...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>>>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>>>>> On May 16, 3:35 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>>>>>>>> In article

>>>> <1179292465.099634.114...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>>>>>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 11:25 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> In article

>>>>>> <1179278239.106024.108...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>>>>>>>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> And yet during the first three months (when 90% of abortions take

>>>>>>>>>>> place) that is all that the baby is. More abortions would

>>>> take place

>>>>>>>>>>> during the first three months if women were able to get easy

>>>> access to

>>>>>>>>>>> abortions. It is my personal opinion that women should not

>>>> choose to

>>>>>>>>>>> have abortions after three months and I would approve of any

>>>> law that

>>>>>>>>>>> discouraged women from having abortions after three months: it so

>>>>>>>>>>> happens that late term abortiions are already illegal in 36

>>>> states.

>>>>>>>>>>> (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion) Here "late

>>>>>>>>>>> term" refers to abortions that take place as early as five

>>>> months into

>>>>>>>>>>> the pregnancy. (See

>>>>>> alsohttp://www.answers.com/topic/late-term-abortion

>>>>>>>>>>> )

>>>>>>>>>> I agree that abortions should only be legal during the first three

>>>>>> months.

>>>>>>>>>> The only exception would be if the mother's life was in danger.

>>>>>>>>> That's not what I said.

>>>>>>>>> 90% of abortions take place during the first three months anyway, I

>>>>>>>>> would personally _discourage_ somebody from having an abortion after

>>>>>>>>> three months but that's not the same thing as making it illegal after

>>>>>>>>> three months: when I said "I would approve of any law that

> discouraged

>>>>>>>>> women from having abortions after three months" I am not

> talking about

>>>>>>>>> an outright ban because, frankly, it is ultimately a matter between a

>>>>>>>>> woman and her doctor. I know (because my wife tells me) that

> the baby

>>>>>>>>> is quite heavy after three months and only gets heavier so an

> unwanted

>>>>>>>>> pregnancy might cause a woman to be unable to continue to work or

>>>>>>>>> study or carry on a relationship or even keep her house clean, do her

>>>>>>>>> own cooking, etc. Unless you've had a baby (and I haven't -not

>>>>>>>>> personally although my wife has- and I know you haven't) then you

>>>>>>>>> can't even imagine what that would be like. It is my own personal

>>>>>>>>> opinion that the baby becomes a person at some point after the three

>>>>>>>>> month period and before the baby is born and that a woman should give

>>>>>>>>> serious thought to whether or not she wanted to have a late term

>>>>>>>>> abortion. For a doctor to suggest that a woman considering a _late_

>>>>>>>>> term abortion first undergo an ultrasound would not be unreasonable:

>>>>>>>>> for the first three months, it would be an absolutely silly thing for

>>>>>>>>> a doctor to suggest because all they will see is a collection of

>>>>>>>>> cells. Really. Have you actually seen an ultrasound of a baby

> at two

>>>>>>>>> months? I have. It was actually a bit disappointing.

>>>>>>>> No, I have not seen an ultrasoud of a baby at two months. I have

> seen 3D

>>>>>>>> ultrasounds of babies in the last trimester. I have seen detailed

>>>> drawings

>>>>>>>> in books about babies at every stage of development. It's really tiny

>>>>>>>> during the first month.

>>>>>>> My wife is pregnant right now and she is coming up for four months. A

>>>>>>> month ago she had an ultrasound and we could see arms and legs and a

>>>>>>> head but two months ago all we saw was a lump of flesh. The doctor

>>>>>>> printed out a picture and he had to circle where the baby was because,

>>>>>>> frankly, we couldn't tell. The baby obviously grows a lot during the

>>>>>>> third month. It was actually a bit silly doing an ultrasound at two

>>>>>>> months under the circumstances but it is a 100% reliable way of

>>>>>>> determining whether or not a woman is pregnant.

>>>>>>> This is the third time my wife has gotten pregnant since we were

>>>>>>> married. Several years ago, my wife had a miscarriage after three

>>>>>>> months. The baby came out and literally died in her hands. I have no

>>>>>>> doubt that the baby had been alive and we both felt guilt wondering

>>>>>>> what we could have done to prevent the miscarriage. I can understand

>>>>>>> very well how women who have abortions feel with regards to depression

>>>>>>> after the fact. They don't need religious people calling them

>>>>>>> murderers: an early term abortion is a cessation of pregnancy and not

>>>>>>> murder. I don't approve of late term abortions except for medical

>>>>>>> emergencies: most doctors won't perform them and it would be

>>>>>>> irresponsible for anyone to recommend one in so far as they could be a

>>>>>>> danger to the mother herself. A woman would be well advised to either

>>>>>>> have an abortion early (if she doesn't want the baby) or else consider

>>>>>>> having the baby and then putting it up for adoption.

>>>>>>> Martin

>>>>>> Good points--I agree--since abortions are legal--they should be done

>>>>>> during the first trimester. The exception would be--if the mother's life

>>>>>> was in danger.

>>>>> Why should that be an exception? You are (gasp!) contradicting

>>>>> yourself.

>>>> I have thought about that subject. The mother is alive and in most cases

>>>> has a husband and in many cases has other children. Her death would cause

>>>> great harm to that family if that woman died in childbirth. The death of

>>>> the child would also cause harm to that family but not as much harm as the

>>>> death of the woman would cause. She may even be able to have another baby.

>>>> I realize that it's a contradiction. Some people in the pro-life movement

>>>> believe the mother should be forced to have a baby even if it puts her

>>>> life in danger.

>>>> Jason

>>> That was a very thoughtful response. Nicely done.-

>> Too bad he cannot allow the woman to determine what the right thing to

>> do is. He is nobly willing to "allow" a woman to have an abortion, if

>> he determines there is a good reason. Clearly the woman cannot be

>> allowed to make such a decision in Jason's world.

>

> I would not force a woman to not have an abortion. However, I see nothing

> wrong with pro-life protestors carrying signs in front of abortion clinics

> and in front of the offices of doctors that perform abortions. Do you

> think that pro-life protestors should be arrested? In one of the southern

> states, there is only one abortion clinic. In the Bible Belt States, we

> are winning the battle.

Yes I believe that such picketers should be arrested if the commit

trespass, or disturb the peace, or do not leave when asked to do so.

Such behavior is harassment and borders on stalking.

It's also hypocritical. They don't do this in front of military

recruiting offices, they don't picket at executions (even my rabbi does

that), they don't picket crack houses, and they don't picket the offices

of corrupt officials.

No, they go where it's safe, easy, glamorous (at least for them), and

they can usually get away with it. It's bullying, pure and simple.

It forces health care providers out of the community on the basis of a

single, necessary service that they perform. Forcing health care

providers who perform abortions to stop will force women to turn to

self-abortion, quacks who do not use sterile or other proper techniques.

Not only that, they generate pressure on the provider to leave the

community. Both of those results will damage public health, endanger

women, and promote discriminate against the poor.

These picketers are hypocritical, unchristian, vicious and uncaring.

They are women-hating interlopers who are incapable of imagining that

something might happen to their daughters that would require an

abortion. They can't see beyond the glamor and the rush of bullying

someone who helps the community.

>

May 18, 2007

Martin Phipps wrote:

> On May 18, 6:08 pm, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarna...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> [snips]

>>

>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 21:14:27 -0700, Martin Phipps wrote:

>>> Actually, it isn't completely arbitrary. There's a big difference

>>> between a fetus at two months and a fetus at three months: at two

>>> months, the baby is a collection of cells only half the size of my

>>> thumb and at three months, the fetus looks like a tiny baby

>> Guess what? At some point in their development, chimp fetuses look much

>> like this, too - so on this basis, we must protect them, because they

>> look like something identifiable. Yes, well, a convincing argument to

>> be sure.

>

> Good point. Those who are anti-evolution and say that they were never

> a monkey should consider the fact that they were once a fetus.

>

> And, yes, animal conservationists would argue that chimp fetuses

> should be protected.

>

>>> voluntarally. There's no dispute between Jason and I on that point.

>>> Where we differ is 1) whether there is anything morally wrong

>>> whatsover with early term abortions

>> Not a damn thing.

>

> To clarify: he says there is and I say there isn't. That wasn't an

> easy realization for me to make.

>

>>> 2) whether or not closing down

>>> clinics and putting doctors out of work could possibly be seen as a

>>> good thing

>> Only by those with an agenda to force their pet - and usually religious -

>> views on others.

>

> Again, he thinks it could be and I don't think it could be.

>

>>> 3) whether or not women should retain the right to choose

>>> abortions after three months

>> What, their bodies magically become someone else's property at that point?

>

> Okay, now you're being silly. I believe that the woman retains the

> right to choose but I believe that it is increasingly becoming a moral

> question at this point. By the beginning of the third trimester, most

> of the doctors themselves would be reluctant to perform an abortion

> unless the woman's own life were at risk.

>

>>> and if anything other than discouraging

>>> abortions after that point (as opposed to an outright ban, which would

>>> be terribly unreasonable) would be appropriate.

>> Anything? Yes - providing decent quality, affordable and readily

>> accessible means to perform the job, should the woman decide to have it

>> done.

>

> Again, you missed the point: giving women access to early term

> abortions would reduce the need for late term abortions. Even Jason

> can see that. I honestly can't understand then why he would want to

> see abortion clinics shut down: his argument doesn't make sense (as

> usual).

I think that Jason is in a quandary that the doesn't yet understand. He

tries to be reasonable, but is caught in his cultural requirement to

follow his preachers without thought and without question.

Unfortunately his preachers have a strong tendency to lie and promulgate

misinformation in order to keep their flocks under control.

It appears that he is making an effort to be thoughtful, but then pulls

back from the brink of success when he realized the consequences of his

attempts at clear thinking.

May 18, 2007

Mike wrote:

> Charles & Mambo Duckman wrote:

>> Jason wrote:

>>

>>> I should note that the lady that wrote that book is now

>>> an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth about what

>>> goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion

>>> doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby in a

>>> room

>>> and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation.

>>> jason

>>

>> And I heard that the doctors eat the baby with some fava beans and

>> throw the bones to dogs.

>

> And a nice chianti. CAN'T forget the fruit of the vine!

>

Sometimes they even offer to share with the mother!

May 18, 2007

Mike wrote:

> cactus wrote:

>> Jason wrote:

>>> In article <0833i.480$u56.296@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,

>>> bm1@nonespam.com wrote:

>>>

>>>> Jason wrote:

>>>>> Martin,

>>>>> You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people

>>>>> lied so

>>>>> therefore it's okay for me to lie". The main lie that I have heard

>>>>> is in relation to Planned Parenthood.

>>>>> Various posters have told me that abortions are an insignificant

>>>>> part of

>>>>> their operation.

>>>> They are. According to their 2004 financial report, abortions

>>>> comprised 6% of the total number of services performed. That is an

>>>> insignificant proportion. It is doubtful that abortions generate

>>>> much net revenue (excess of fees over costs), which would imply that

>>>> the bottom-line contribution from abortions would be a lower

>>>> percentage.

>>>>

>>>> And you should note that most of what Planned Parenthood does is

>>>> reproductive counseling. This reduces the need for abortions, so

>>>> they are doing their part to reduce the numbers of abortions,

>>>> probably far more effectively than the noisy reproduction fascists.

>>>>

>>>> I have no doubt that the people that told me that

>>>>> information derived it from the Planned Parenthood website. That

>>>>> information at that site was probably written by a person or

>>>>> persons that

>>>>> have college degrees in the field of public relations.

>>>> The financial reports are subject to audit. If they were to lie,

>>>> don't you think that some gleeful ghoul would be on top of it

>>>> immediately? Innuendo can be as bad as lies, Jason. Back up your

>>>> assertions with valid information from credible sources before you,

>>>> of all people, start calling others liars.

>>>>

>>>> Almost all large

>>>>> companies and charity organizations have people like that on their

>>>>> staffs.

>>>> Advertising, marketing, and Public Relations are different. Maybe

>>>> you should bother yourself to learn the differences.

>>>>

>>>>> I have received form letters from those sorts of people.

>>>> That's advertising, maybe fund-raising.

>>>>

>>>> Planned

>>>>> Parenthood derives millions of dollars per year as a result of

>>>>> abortions.

>>>> As discussed above, it is a small proportion of the services

>>>> provided and probably a smaller proportion of net revenues.

>>>>

>>>>> Does Planned Parenthood offer other services--the answer is YES.

>>>> And they are far more significant.

>>>>

>>>>> I have also noticed that many of the people that responded to my posts

>>>>> seem to think that abortions do no harm to women.

>>>> They are certainly not good for them; however, it is sometimes the

>>>> least bad of the options.

>>>>

>>>> One poster indicated

>>>>> that only a very small number of women suffer severe depression as a

>>>>> result of abortions. I believe that is a lie but have no surveys for

>>>>> proof.

>>>> I may have been that person, and I said that it was far more likely

>>>> to be a hormonally induced depression than other types.

>>>>

>>>> I believe that over half of the woman that have had abortions

>>>>> suffer from severe depression problems--esp. if the abortions were

>>>>> performed during the second or third trimesters.

>>>> You have no basis for that belief, except possibly the biased sample

>>>> provided by the pitiful cases presented by your preachers.

>>>

>>> Good points.

>>>

>> Do you have any other response? If you agree, what are you going to do

>> about it?

>

> Ignore them and repeat his same crap in another post.

I know. But maybe this will help him to think about the conversation. We

can hope.

May 18, 2007

Jason wrote:

> In article <978r43hiof5vpgts2td1d96scjie9lmjuk@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

> <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

>

>> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 21:19:17 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

>> (Jason) let us all know that:

>>

>>> In article <mg4q435t6fji1qvqkhfj4o29fjssdnl4q0@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

>>> <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:07:11 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

>>>> (Jason) let us all know that:

>>>>

>>>>> In article <fuap43loh53g9d20rt0h3bno3ehovi00vs@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

>>>>> <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:27:56 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

>>>>>> (Jason) let us all know that:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that

> "managed"

>>>>>>> an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that

>>>>>>> abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion

>>>>>>> clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the

> clinic is a

>>>>>>> "full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many

>>>>>>> procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an

>>>>>>> "abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that

>>>>>>> performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an

>>>>>>> abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book

> is now

>>>>>>> an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth

> about what

>>>>>>> goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion

>>>>>>> doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby

> in a room

>>>>>>> and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation.

>>>>>>> jason

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> Notice how you never name names. Or cite book titles.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> There's a reason for that: you either make it all up, or you

>>>>>> heard if from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from

>>>>>> someone's brother's cousin's former roommate.

>>>>>>

>>>>> I no longer have a copy of the book or even remember the title. Upon

>>>>> request, I could probably find out the name of the author but the book is

>>>>> out of print.

>>>>>

>>>> IOW: you made it up.

>>>

>>> I found it:

>>>

>>> Sue Hertz, author of Caught in the Crossfire: A Year on Abortion's Front

>>> Line, documents what she saw in and at one busy abortion clinic:

>> But she didn't "manage" it. She was doing research for her

>> book.

>>

>> At least you took some time to find the book, though. That's

>> more than most other anti-woman whackos do.

>>

>> As for the quote: I wonder if you think that matters at all to

>> whether or not abortion is moral.

>>

>> Don

>

> Don,

> Thanks. Yes, I spent over an hour trying to find the name of the author.

> I did learn from that book that abortion also does harm to the people

> (including doctors) that work in abortion clinics. The doctors develop a

> lack of respect for life and learn to see the unborn babies as objects

> instead of unborn babies.

Have you researched this about cosmetic surgeons?

Many of the staff members "burn out" after a

> couple of years.

They don't last long at dialysis clinics. Some burn out doing hospice work.

The people that work in the front office learn by

> experience to never go in the back portion of the clinic. That's one of

> the reasons that I hope the morning after pill means that lots of abortion

> clinics to close down due to the lack of customers.

How many clinics have closed due to lack of customers? How many were

closed down because of the acts of vicious reproduction fascists?

I think it's more the latter than the former.

May 18, 2007

In article <978r43hiof5vpgts2td1d96scjie9lmjuk@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

<ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 21:19:17 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

> (Jason) let us all know that:

>

> >In article <mg4q435t6fji1qvqkhfj4o29fjssdnl4q0@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

> ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

> >

> >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:07:11 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

> >> (Jason) let us all know that:

> >>

> >> >In article <fuap43loh53g9d20rt0h3bno3ehovi00vs@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

> >> ><ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

> >> >

> >> >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:27:56 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

> >> >> (Jason) let us all know that:

> >> >>

> >> >> >Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that

"managed"

> >> >> >an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that

> >> >> >abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion

> >> >> >clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the

clinic is a

> >> >> >"full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many

> >> >> >procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an

> >> >> >"abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that

> >> >> >performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an

> >> >> >abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book

is now

> >> >> >an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth

about what

> >> >> >goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion

> >> >> >doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby

in a room

> >> >> >and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation.

> >> >> >jason

> >> >> >

> >> >> Notice how you never name names. Or cite book titles.

> >> >>

> >> >> There's a reason for that: you either make it all up, or you

> >> >> heard if from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from

> >> >> someone's brother's cousin's former roommate.

> >> >>

> >> >

> >> >I no longer have a copy of the book or even remember the title. Upon

> >> >request, I could probably find out the name of the author but the book is

> >> >out of print.

> >> >

> >> IOW: you made it up.

> >

> >I found it:

> >

> >Sue Hertz, author of Caught in the Crossfire: A Year on Abortion's Front

> >Line, documents what she saw in and at one busy abortion clinic:

>

> But she didn't "manage" it. She was doing research for her

> book.

>

> At least you took some time to find the book, though. That's

> more than most other anti-woman whackos do.

>

> As for the quote: I wonder if you think that matters at all to

> whether or not abortion is moral.

>

> Don

Don,

Thanks. Yes, I spent over an hour trying to find the name of the author.

I did learn from that book that abortion also does harm to the people

(including doctors) that work in abortion clinics. The doctors develop a

lack of respect for life and learn to see the unborn babies as objects

instead of unborn babies. Many of the staff members "burn out" after a

couple of years. The people that work in the front office learn by

experience to never go in the back portion of the clinic. That's one of

the reasons that I hope the morning after pill means that lots of abortion

clinics to close down due to the lack of customers.

Jason

May 18, 2007

"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in

message news:Jason-1805070949040001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

> In article <f2k7uu$gb0$2@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

>

>> Jason wrote:

>> > <snip>

snip

> You are being disrespectful.

Oh, grow up. No one has to cater to your ego.

My evidence is the women that I have seen

> interviewed on Christian radio and television shows and the women that

> have told their stories in Church services.

So, just hearsay then. Gotcha.

Even if I posted the survey

> results from a pro-life website--either you or someone else would say the

> survey has no credibility.

Why are you such a liar?

--

Robyn

Resident Witchypoo

BAAWA Knight!

#1557

May 18, 2007

Jason wrote:

> In article <f2k7uu$gb0$2@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

>

>> Jason wrote:

>>> <snip>

>>>

>>> Jason wrote:

>>>>> Please tell me what lie that I told? I made an honest mistake. An honest

>>>>> mistake is different than a lie. I still don't remember the exact words of

>>>>> the television preacher. I don't take notes when I listen to a sermon.

>>>>> Jason

>>>> Jason, we just can't take your word for anything anymore. What

>>>> difference does it make if you made an honest mistake or if you

>>>> deliberately set out to deceive? I would hope that in the future you

>>>> can get your facts straight.

>>>>

>>>> Frankly, when you say "I believe lots of people lied to me in this

>>>> thread" the impression I get is that you are arguing that it is okay

>>>> for you to lie because other people are lying too. I hope I am wrong

>>>> but I see no other reason for you to use the classic "But they've lied

>>>> too" argument if you are not admitting to (knowingly or unknowingly)

>>>> posting lies. Perhaps you can tell us what lies you've been told on

>>>> this thread.

>>>>

>>>> Martin

>>> Martin,

>>> You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people lied so

>>> therefore it's okay for me to lie".

>>> The main lie that I have heard is in relation to Planned Parenthood.

>> You haven't heard any lies about it unless you read your own posts out loud.

>>

>>> Various posters have told me that abortions are an insignificant part of

>>> their operation. I have no doubt that the people that told me that

>>> information derived it from the Planned Parenthood website. That

>>> information at that site was probably written by a person or persons that

>>> have college degrees in the field of public relations. Almost all large

>>> companies and charity organizations have people like that on their staffs.

>>> I have received form letters from those sorts of people. Planned

>>> Parenthood derives millions of dollars per year as a result of abortions.

>>> Does Planned Parenthood offer other services--the answer is YES.

>> I have noticed that you have YET to actually REFUTE the statement that

>> abortions are an insignificant part of their operation. If a

>> company/organization brings in $500m a year and $5m of that is one

>> particular product/service, that IS an insignificant portion of the

>> company's income, even if it's "millions of dollars per year."

>>

>>> I have also noticed that many of the people that responded to my posts

>>> seem to think that abortions do no harm to women.

>> Quote a single person who said abortions do "NO harm to women."

>>

>> One poster indicated

>>> that only a very small number of women suffer severe depression as a

>>> result of abortions. I believe that is a lie but have no surveys for

>>> proof.

>> I.e. you claim it's a lie and yet can't support that claim.

>>

>> I believe that over half of the woman that have had abortions

>>> suffer from severe depression problems--esp. if the abortions were

>>> performed during the second or third trimesters.

>> Any source for this belief other than your ass?

>

> You are being disrespectful. My evidence is the women that I have seen

> interviewed on Christian radio and television shows and the women that

> have told their stories in Church services. Even if I posted the survey

> results from a pro-life website--either you or someone else would say the

> survey has no credibility.

>

You have a biased source! Don't you understand? The women are selected

very carefully for such performances, probably more than the Jerry

Springer show, and just as much as the Bush campaign rallies during the

last election. You are only seeing what they want you to see.

Open your eyes, man. Look around. Talk to Planned Parenthood workers.

Try to listen to them respectfully and understand their point of view.

You don't have to agree with it. Plenty of people oppose abortion

without being reproduction fascists. Listening to other viewpoints does

not have to change yours, it should only give you a better, more

balanced understanding of the issues. These issues are complex, and you

are being fed simplistic lies by dishonest people.

>

May 18, 2007

"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:Jason-1805071018400001@66-52-22-101.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

> In article <5b5vjlF2okt37U1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

> <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

>

>> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

snip

>> > I don't change my beliefs based on one study. For example, if I posted

>> > a

>> > study that done by a pro-life organization that showed that 50 percent

>> > of

>> > the women that had abortions suffered from severe depression--would you

>> > believe the survey results?

>>

>> Maybe - Maybe not.

>>

>> I also wouldn't care.

>>

>> I'm sure some women do feel depressed after having an abortion. So what?

>> That's they're problem.

>

> Someone told me that I don't care about women.

Probably because you want to dictate what they can do with their bodies,

when in reality it's none of your business.

It appears that you don't

> have much sympathy for women that suffer from severe depression as a

> result of having abortions.

You're right, I don't. Bed - Made - Lie. Not to mention that there's

therapy available, anti-depressant medication, etc. Whining over spilt milk

isn't going to do anyone any good.

> I do have sympathy for those women.

So what? It's still none of your business.

--

Robyn

Resident Witchypoo

BAAWA Knight!

#1557

May 18, 2007

In article <f2k7uu$gb0$2@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> Jason wrote:

> > <snip>

> >

> > Jason wrote:

> >>> Please tell me what lie that I told? I made an honest mistake. An honest

> >>> mistake is different than a lie. I still don't remember the exact words of

> >>> the television preacher. I don't take notes when I listen to a sermon.

> >>> Jason

> >> Jason, we just can't take your word for anything anymore. What

> >> difference does it make if you made an honest mistake or if you

> >> deliberately set out to deceive? I would hope that in the future you

> >> can get your facts straight.

> >>

> >> Frankly, when you say "I believe lots of people lied to me in this

> >> thread" the impression I get is that you are arguing that it is okay

> >> for you to lie because other people are lying too. I hope I am wrong

> >> but I see no other reason for you to use the classic "But they've lied

> >> too" argument if you are not admitting to (knowingly or unknowingly)

> >> posting lies. Perhaps you can tell us what lies you've been told on

> >> this thread.

> >>

> >> Martin

> >

> > Martin,

> > You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people lied so

> > therefore it's okay for me to lie".

> > The main lie that I have heard is in relation to Planned Parenthood.

>

> You haven't heard any lies about it unless you read your own posts out loud.

>

> > Various posters have told me that abortions are an insignificant part of

> > their operation. I have no doubt that the people that told me that

> > information derived it from the Planned Parenthood website. That

> > information at that site was probably written by a person or persons that

> > have college degrees in the field of public relations. Almost all large

> > companies and charity organizations have people like that on their staffs.

> > I have received form letters from those sorts of people. Planned

> > Parenthood derives millions of dollars per year as a result of abortions.

> > Does Planned Parenthood offer other services--the answer is YES.

>

> I have noticed that you have YET to actually REFUTE the statement that

> abortions are an insignificant part of their operation. If a

> company/organization brings in $500m a year and $5m of that is one

> particular product/service, that IS an insignificant portion of the

> company's income, even if it's "millions of dollars per year."

>

> > I have also noticed that many of the people that responded to my posts

> > seem to think that abortions do no harm to women.

>

> Quote a single person who said abortions do "NO harm to women."

>

> One poster indicated

> > that only a very small number of women suffer severe depression as a

> > result of abortions. I believe that is a lie but have no surveys for

> > proof.

>

> I.e. you claim it's a lie and yet can't support that claim.

>

> I believe that over half of the woman that have had abortions

> > suffer from severe depression problems--esp. if the abortions were

> > performed during the second or third trimesters.

>

> Any source for this belief other than your ass?

You are being disrespectful. My evidence is the women that I have seen

interviewed on Christian radio and television shows and the women that

have told their stories in Church services. Even if I posted the survey

results from a pro-life website--either you or someone else would say the

survey has no credibility.

May 18, 2007

"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message

news:Xns99339A31844C0doldridgsprintca@64.59.135.159...

> "H. Wm. Esque" <HEsque@bellsouth.net> wrote in

> news:T%R2i.140$Hk.119@bignews8.bellsouth.net:

>

> > Everyone is "ignorant" regarding subjects for which they

> > have limited backgrown. I am reading and trying to digest

> > the sites which you gave. But it is rather heavy going.

> > It's taking time.

>

> Ignorance is, indeed, the default condition of the human mind, except

> insofar as our basic instincts give us a kind of inherited knowledge.

>

True, I would agree there are things we know instinctively: and

I think it would be an interesting exercise to spell out some of

this knowledge.

>

> But latter-day young-earth creationism is a kind of pagan religion that

> turns God from the Amighty Creator of all things seen and unseen into an

> invisible purveyor of ignorance. And the devotees of this paganism

worship

> their god of ignorance by promoting WILFUL ignorance wherever and whenever

> they can. Now, by my lights, they are entitled to be as stupid as they

> want (wilful ignorance, to me, equates with stupidity). But they have no

> right to mandate the TEACHING of stupidity in the schools, simply because

> their false god is a god of stupidity. For one thing, when they do that,

> their stupidity has a habit of showing up in MY church where it's not the

> least bit wanted!

>

I'm 100% in agreement with anything you wrote.

> --

> Dave Oldridge+

> ICQ 1800667

May 18, 2007

In article <1179462808.818943.73540@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Martin

Phipps <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 18, 9:33 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > <snip>

> >

> > > > > Did it ever opccur to you that perhaps NONE of the world's religions

> > > > > are true? Why do you feel obliged to have to pick one?

> >

> > > > If you have ever studied the history of Indians and various isolated

> > > > groups of people in Africa, you would know that they believed in a

God or

> > > > Gods. The reason is because they knew (without ever being told)

that when

> > > > they died --that is was the beginning of a new life in heaven. That led

> > > > them to believe that God or Gods were watching over them. My

parents were

> > > > Christians and most all of my friends were Christians. I was

raised in the

> > > > mountains of Virginia which is part of the Bible Belt. Just like the

> > > > Indians and Africans that lived in the 1600's, I feel the same way they

> > > > felt--That God is watching over me and that I will have a better life in

> > > > heaven. Back to your question: No--it has never occurred to me that none

> > > > of the religions are true. I picked the best one that I could find and I

> > > > do not regret my decision.

> >

> > > Let me rephrase my question. Did it ever occur to you that atheists

> > > might be more enlightened than those who believe on the superstitions

> > > passed down from centuries ago?

> >

> > No, I know that is what most atheists believe but I believe they are

> > wrong. There are lots of Christian college professors; Christian medical

> > doctors and Christians involved in many other professions. They are just

> > as enlightened as any of the atheists involved in any of those

> > professions.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

>

> "According to a study by Paul Bell, published in the Mensa Magazine

> in

> 2002, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and

> intelligence. Analyzing 43 studies carried out since 1927, Bell found

> that all but four reported such a connection, and he concluded that

> "the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is

> likely to be religious or hold 'beliefs' of any kind."[1] A survey

> published in Nature in 1998 confirms that belief in a personal God or

> afterlife is at an all time low among the members of the National

> Academy of Science, only 7.0% of which believed in a personal God as

> compared to more than 85% of the US general population.[2]"

>

> <a lot of stuff snipped>

>

> What you don't seem to understand, Jason, is that the idea of late

> term abortion sickens me (and in fact most people) on many levels but

> the question is what does one do about it? Outlaw all abortions or

> encourage women to have abortions earlier so that it becomes a

> painless procedure for EVERYONE involved? Need I remind you again

> that I was adopted and that I could have been aborted myself?

>

> Martin

Martin,

It would be very easy for the professors at a Christian college to conduct

a survey that indicated that Christians were more intelligent than

atheists. I once done some research related to statins. I found dozens of

reports indicating that statins were a dangerous drug that had terrible

side effects. I read a book written by a doctor that pointed out all of

the side effects of statins. He had case studies of people that had been

disabled by statins. I also read lots of official studies that were funded

by the drug companies that made statins. Those studies indicated that

statins were a very safe drug. My point is that experts can make the

results of a survey or research report say exactly what they want it to

say. For example, drug companies "cherry pick" the people that take part

in their studies by conducting complete physical exams on everyone that

takes part in their studies. They screen out from those studies anyone

that has any diseases that could cause them to develop side effects from

the new drug. There are exceptions. In other words, I don't trust the

results of all surveys and research reports.

I could also have been the victim of abortion. My sister told me that my

parents did not want to have any more children when she became pregnant

with me. Her pregnancy was a complete surprise. It's my guess that if

abortion had been an option--she was have chosen that option since she did

not want any more babies. We are in agreement that it's best to do

abortions during the first trimester.

Jason

May 18, 2007

In article <5b5vjlF2okt37U1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff"

<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote

>

> in message

> news:Jason-1805070140390001@66-52-22-21.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...

> > In article <1179471115.012608.35160@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

> > gudloos@yahoo.com wrote:

> >

> >> On 17 Maj, 22:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >> > <snip>

> snip

> > I don't change my beliefs based on one study. For example, if I posted a

> > study that done by a pro-life organization that showed that 50 percent of

> > the women that had abortions suffered from severe depression--would you

> > believe the survey results?

>

> Maybe - Maybe not.

>

> I also wouldn't care.

>

> I'm sure some women do feel depressed after having an abortion. So what?

> That's they're problem.

Someone told me that I don't care about women. It appears that you don't

have much sympathy for women that suffer from severe depression as a

result of having abortions. I do have sympathy for those women.

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 10:40, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <1179471115.012608.35...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

>

> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On 17 Maj, 22:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > <snip>

>

> > > Jason wrote:

>

> > > > > Please tell me what lie that I told? I made an honest mistake. An honest

> > > > > mistake is different than a lie. I still don't remember the exact

> words of

> > > > > the television preacher. I don't take notes when I listen to a sermon.

> > > > > Jason

>

> > > > Jason, we just can't take your word for anything anymore. What

> > > > difference does it make if you made an honest mistake or if you

> > > > deliberately set out to deceive? I would hope that in the future you

> > > > can get your facts straight.

>

> > > > Frankly, when you say "I believe lots of people lied to me in this

> > > > thread" the impression I get is that you are arguing that it is okay

> > > > for you to lie because other people are lying too. I hope I am wrong

> > > > but I see no other reason for you to use the classic "But they've lied

> > > > too" argument if you are not admitting to (knowingly or unknowingly)

> > > > posting lies. Perhaps you can tell us what lies you've been told on

> > > > this thread.

>

> > > > Martin

>

> > > Martin,

> > > You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people lied so

> > > therefore it's okay for me to lie".

> > > The main lie that I have heard is in relation to Planned Parenthood.

> > > Various posters have told me that abortions are an insignificant part of

> > > their operation. I have no doubt that the people that told me that

> > > information derived it from the Planned Parenthood website. That

> > > information at that site was probably written by a person or persons that

> > > have college degrees in the field of public relations. Almost all large

> > > companies and charity organizations have people like that on their staffs.

> > > I have received form letters from those sorts of people. Planned

> > > Parenthood derives millions of dollars per year as a result of abortions.

> > > Does Planned Parenthood offer other services--the answer is YES.

> > > I have also noticed that many of the people that responded to my posts

> > > seem to think that abortions do no harm to women. One poster indicated

> > > that only a very small number of women suffer severe depression as a

> > > result of abortions. I believe that is a lie but have no surveys for

> > > proof.

>

> > >From Science Daily a quote from their article discussing a study of

> > abortion depression:

>

> > "The study involved 1,247 US women who aborted or delivered an

> > unwanted first pregnancy between 1970 and 1992. The women were

> > interviewed over several years to examine the relation between

> > pregnancy outcome and later depression.

>

> > Terminating compared with delivering an unwanted first pregnancy was

> > not directly related to risk of depression. Instead, women who

> > delivered before 1980 had a significantly higher risk of depression

> > than all other groups. "

>

> >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051029100018.htm

>

> > >I believe that over half of the woman that have had abortions

> > > suffer from severe depression problems--esp. if the abortions were

> > > performed during the second or third trimesters.

>

> > You believe wrong.

>

> I don't change my beliefs based on one study. For example, if I posted a

> study that done by a pro-life organization that showed that 50 percent of

> the women that had abortions suffered from severe depression--would you

> believe the survey results?- Skjul tekst i anf

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 10:46, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <1179473352.119729.116...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

>

> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On 18 Maj, 06:21, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > In article <4h3q43h64tgggeh816im12husij76kg...@4ax.com>, Al Klein

>

> > > <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:

> > > > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> > > > >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be

> > > > >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doc=

> > tors

> > > > >that perform abortions?

>

> > > > Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around

> > > > outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs?

>

> > > > > I heard about one pro-life group that carried

> > > > >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed

> > > > >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been

> > > > >arrested?

>

> > > > How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor

> > > > Murderer" signs?

>

> > > You failed to answer my questions.- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rselstegn -

>

> > Actually he did.

>

> I wish that you had been one of my professors. When I was in college, I

> would not have passed any classes if I had answered all exam questions

> with a question. I was hoping for yes or no answers.-

Your question was answered. Your inability to understand that is your

problem. He was, by the way, not taking an exam.

May 18, 2007

In alt.atheism On Fri, 18 May 2007 09:43:12 -0700, Jason@nospam.com

(Jason) let us all know that:

>Don,

>Thanks. Yes, I spent over an hour trying to find the name of the author.

>I did learn from that book that abortion also does harm to the people

>(including doctors) that work in abortion clinics.

So does playing football.

> The doctors develop a

>lack of respect for life and learn to see the unborn babies as objects

>instead of unborn babies. Many of the staff members "burn out" after a

>couple of years. The people that work in the front office learn by

>experience to never go in the back portion of the clinic. That's one of

>the reasons that I hope the morning after pill means that lots of abortion

>clinics to close down due to the lack of customers.

>Jason

>

That would be fine were it not for idiotic fundies trying to

get the pill banned.

Don

---

aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde

Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"

Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 10:53, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <1179472005.049946.225...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,

>

> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On 17 Maj, 22:30, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:

> > > Jason wrote:

> > > > In article <1179392300.841908.294...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

> > > > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

>

> > > >> On 16 Maj, 20:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > >>> In article

>

> <1179316001.502902.218...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>

> > > >>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > >>>> On May 16, 3:35 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > >>>>> In article

> > > > <1179292465.099634.114...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> > > >>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > >>>>>> On May 16, 11:25 am, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > >>>>>>> In article

> > > >>> <1179278239.106024.108...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Martin

>

> > > >>>>>>> Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>> And yet during the first three months (when 90% of abortions take

> > > >>>>>>>> place) that is all that the baby is. More abortions would

> > > > take place

> > > >>>>>>>> during the first three months if women were able to get easy

> > > > access to

> > > >>>>>>>> abortions. It is my personal opinion that women should not

> > > > choose to

> > > >>>>>>>> have abortions after three months and I would approve of any

> > > > law that

> > > >>>>>>>> discouraged women from having abortions after three months: it so

> > > >>>>>>>> happens that late term abortiions are already illegal in 36

> > > > states.

> > > >>>>>>>> (Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion) Here "late

> > > >>>>>>>> term" refers to abortions that take place as early as five

> > > > months into

> > > >>>>>>>> the pregnancy. (See

> > > >>> alsohttp://www.answers.com/topic/late-term-abortion

>

> > > >>>>>>>> )

> > > >>>>>>> I agree that abortions should only be legal during the first three

> > > >>> months.

> > > >>>>>>> The only exception would be if the mother's life was in danger.

> > > >>>>>> That's not what I said.

> > > >>>>>> 90% of abortions take place during the first three months anyway, I

> > > >>>>>> would personally _discourage_ somebody from having an abortion after

> > > >>>>>> three months but that's not the same thing as making it illegal after

> > > >>>>>> three months: when I said "I would approve of any law that

> discouraged

> > > >>>>>> women from having abortions after three months" I am not

> talking about

> > > >>>>>> an outright ban because, frankly, it is ultimately a matter between a

> > > >>>>>> woman and her doctor. I know (because my wife tells me) that

> the baby

> > > >>>>>> is quite heavy after three months and only gets heavier so an

> unwanted

> > > >>>>>> pregnancy might cause a woman to be unable to continue to work or

> > > >>>>>> study or carry on a relationship or even keep her house clean, do her

> > > >>>>>> own cooking, etc. Unless you've had a baby (and I haven't -not

> > > >>>>>> personally although my wife has- and I know you haven't) then you

> > > >>>>>> can't even imagine what that would be like. It is my own personal

> > > >>>>>> opinion that the baby becomes a person at some point after the three

> > > >>>>>> month period and before the baby is born and that a woman should give

> > > >>>>>> serious thought to whether or not she wanted to have a late term

> > > >>>>>> abortion. For a doctor to suggest that a woman considering a _late_

> > > >>>>>> term abortion first undergo an ultrasound would not be unreasonable:

> > > >>>>>> for the first three months, it would be an absolutely silly thing for

> > > >>>>>> a doctor to suggest because all they will see is a collection of

> > > >>>>>> cells. Really. Have you actually seen an ultrasound of a baby

> at two

> > > >>>>>> months? I have. It was actually a bit disappointing.

> > > >>>>> No, I have not seen an ultrasoud of a baby at two months. I have

> seen 3D

> > > >>>>> ultrasounds of babies in the last trimester. I have seen detailed

> > > > drawings

> > > >>>>> in books about babies at every stage of development. It's really tiny

> > > >>>>> during the first month.

> > > >>>> My wife is pregnant right now and she is coming up for four months. A

> > > >>>> month ago she had an ultrasound and we could see arms and legs and a

> > > >>>> head but two months ago all we saw was a lump of flesh. The doctor

> > > >>>> printed out a picture and he had to circle where the baby was because,

> > > >>>> frankly, we couldn't tell. The baby obviously grows a lot during the

> > > >>>> third month. It was actually a bit silly doing an ultrasound at two

> > > >>>> months under the circumstances but it is a 100% reliable way of

> > > >>>> determining whether or not a woman is pregnant.

> > > >>>> This is the third time my wife has gotten pregnant since we were

> > > >>>> married. Several years ago, my wife had a miscarriage after three

> > > >>>> months. The baby came out and literally died in her hands. I have no

> > > >>>> doubt that the baby had been alive and we both felt guilt wondering

> > > >>>> what we could have done to prevent the miscarriage. I can understand

> > > >>>> very well how women who have abortions feel with regards to depression

> > > >>>> after the fact. They don't need religious people calling them

> > > >>>> murderers: an early term abortion is a cessation of pregnancy and not

> > > >>>> murder. I don't approve of late term abortions except for medical

> > > >>>> emergencies: most doctors won't perform them and it would be

> > > >>>> irresponsible for anyone to recommend one in so far as they could be a

> > > >>>> danger to the mother herself. A woman would be well advised to either

> > > >>>> have an abortion early (if she doesn't want the baby) or else consider

> > > >>>> having the baby and then putting it up for adoption.

> > > >>>> Martin

> > > >>> Good points--I agree--since abortions are legal--they should be done

> > > >>> during the first trimester. The exception would be--if the mother's life

> > > >>> was in danger.

> > > >> Why should that be an exception? You are (gasp!) contradicting

> > > >> yourself.

>

> > > > I have thought about that subject. The mother is alive and in most cases

> > > > has a husband and in many cases has other children. Her death would cause

> > > > great harm to that family if that woman died in childbirth. The death of

> > > > the child would also cause harm to that family but not as much harm as the

> > > > death of the woman would cause. She may even be able to have another baby.

> > > > I realize that it's a contradiction. Some people in the pro-life movement

> > > > believe the mother should be forced to have a baby even if it puts her

> > > > life in danger.

> > > > Jason

>

> > > That was a very thoughtful response. Nicely done.-

>

> > Too bad he cannot allow the woman to determine what the right thing to

> > do is. He is nobly willing to "allow" a woman to have an abortion, if

> > he determines there is a good reason. Clearly the woman cannot be

> > allowed to make such a decision in Jason's world.

>

> I would not force a woman to not have an abortion.

Of course you would. You want to make abortions illegal.

>However, I see nothing

> wrong with pro-life protestors carrying signs in front of abortion clinics

> and in front of the offices of doctors that perform abortions. Do you

> think that pro-life protestors should be arrested?

Do you think that Rev. Phelp's people should be arrested when they

picket a funeral? Harrassment is illegal.

>In one of the southern

> states, there is only one abortion clinic. In the Bible Belt States, we

> are winning the battle.-

Clearly you do not want women to have the right to decide for

themselves. You will force them to not have abortions. Please do not

lie about it again.

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 09:54, Martin Phipps <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 18, 4:46 pm, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> > In article <1179473352.119729.116...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

>

> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > On 18 Maj, 06:21, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> > > > In article <4h3q43h64tgggeh816im12husij76kg...@4ax.com>, Al Klein

>

> > > > <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:

> > > > > On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:56:47 -0700, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>

> > > > > >Do you believe that members of pro-life organizations should NOT be

> > > > > >allowed to carry signs outside abortion clinics and the offices of doc=

> > > tors

> > > > > >that perform abortions?

>

> > > > > Do you believe that people should be allowed to follow men around

> > > > > outside drug stores carrying anti-condom signs?

>

> > > > > > I heard about one pro-life group that carried

> > > > > >signs on the city steet outside the home of a doctor that performed

> > > > > >abortions. Do you think that those pro-life protestors should have been

> > > > > >arrested?

>

> > > > > How would they have felt if people picketed their homes with "Doctor

> > > > > Murderer" signs?

>

> > > > You failed to answer my questions.

> > > Actually he did.

>

> > I wish that you had been one of my professors. When I was in college, I

> > would not have passed any classes if I had answered all exam questions

> > with a question. I was hoping for yes or no answers.

>

> Times have changed. Professors nowadays expect you to think about a

> question and not simply answer with a "yes" or a "no".

Think about a question? How cruel!

>

> Martin- Skjul tekst i anf

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 14:31, Mike <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> Jason wrote:

> > In article <1179430348.666665.288...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

> > gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

>

> >> On 17 Maj, 22:11, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >>> In article <1179392300.841908.294...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

>

> >>> gudl...@yahoo.com wrote:

> >>>> On 16 Maj, 20:22, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> >>>>> In article

> > <1179316001.502902.218...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Martin

> >> snip

>

> >>>>> Good points--I agree--since abortions are legal--they should be done

> >>>>> during the first trimester. The exception would be--if the mother's life

> >>>>> was in danger.

> >>>> Why should that be an exception? You are (gasp!) contradicting

> >>>> yourself.

> >>> I have thought about that subject. The mother is alive and in most cases

> >>> has a husband and in many cases has other children. Her death would cause

> >>> great harm to that family if that woman died in childbirth. The death of

> >>> the child would also cause harm to that family but not as much harm as the

> >>> death of the woman would cause. She may even be able to have another baby.

> >>> I realize that it's a contradiction.

> >> Ah well then, that makes it okay.

>

> >>> Some people in the pro-life movement

> >>> believe the mother should be forced to have a baby even if it puts her

> >>> life in danger.

> >> But you feel that you are able to choose which life should be

> >> preserved, even though, according to your beliefs, killing the foetus

> >> is murder.

>

> > Let's say that you are a pro-life doctor that had a pregnant lady as a

> > patient that had serious medical problems. You determine that the lady may

> > die if she has the baby. Would you force that woman to carry that baby to

> > term and have that baby?

>

> > If I was that doctor, I would let that lady make the decision.

>

> That wouldn't amount to - gasp - situational ethics, now would it????- Skjul tekst i anf

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 18:43, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <978r43hiof5vpgts2td1d96scjie9lm...@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

>

> <ROT13.qxer...@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

> > In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 21:19:17 -0700, J...@nospam.com

> > (Jason) let us all know that:

>

> > >In article <mg4q435t6fji1qvqkhfj4o29fjssdnl...@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

> > ><ROT13.qxer...@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

>

> > >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:07:11 -0700, J...@nospam.com

> > >> (Jason) let us all know that:

>

> > >> >In article <fuap43loh53g9d20rt0h3bno3ehovi0...@4ax.com>, Don Kresch

> > >> ><ROT13.qxer...@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote:

>

> > >> >> In alt.atheism On Thu, 17 May 2007 12:27:56 -0700, J...@nospam.com

> > >> >> (Jason) let us all know that:

>

> > >> >> >Several years ago, I read a book that was written by a lady that

> "managed"

> > >> >> >an abortion clinic. The only procedures that were performed in that

> > >> >> >abortion clinic were abortions. When I use the term "abortion

> > >> >> >clinic"--that's the type of clinic that I have in mind. If the

> clinic is a

> > >> >> >"full service facility" where abortions are only one of the many

> > >> >> >procedures that are performed--I don't refer to such a clinic as an

> > >> >> >"abortion clinic". There is a "Woman's Clinic" in a nearby town that

> > >> >> >performs abortions as one of many services. I don't call that clinic an

> > >> >> >abortion clinic. I should note that the lady that wrote that book

> is now

> > >> >> >an advocate for pro-life. She exposed (in her book) the truth

> about what

> > >> >> >goes on inside abortion clinics. For example, I learned what abortion

> > >> >> >doctors do when a baby survives an abortion. They place the baby

> in a room

> > >> >> >and the baby dies as a result of dehydration and starvation.

> > >> >> >jason

>

> > >> >> Notice how you never name names. Or cite book titles.

>

> > >> >> There's a reason for that: you either make it all up, or you

> > >> >> heard if from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from

> > >> >> someone's brother's cousin's former roommate.

>

> > >> >I no longer have a copy of the book or even remember the title. Upon

> > >> >request, I could probably find out the name of the author but the book is

> > >> >out of print.

>

> > >> IOW: you made it up.

>

> > >I found it:

>

> > >Sue Hertz, author of Caught in the Crossfire: A Year on Abortion's Front

> > >Line, documents what she saw in and at one busy abortion clinic:

>

> > But she didn't "manage" it. She was doing research for her

> > book.

>

> > At least you took some time to find the book, though. That's

> > more than most other anti-woman whackos do.

>

> > As for the quote: I wonder if you think that matters at all to

> > whether or not abortion is moral.

>

> > Don

>

> Don,

> Thanks. Yes, I spent over an hour trying to find the name of the author.

> I did learn from that book that abortion also does harm to the people

> (including doctors) that work in abortion clinics. The doctors develop a

> lack of respect for life and learn to see the unborn babies as objects

> instead of unborn babies. Many of the staff members "burn out" after a

> couple of years. The people that work in the front office learn by

> experience to never go in the back portion of the clinic.

I see, she did a scientific study and had it published in a peer-

reviewed publication did she? If not, she is, at best, expressing a

personal opinion.

That's one of

> the reasons that I hope the morning after pill means that lots of abortion

> clinics to close down due to the lack of customers.

I see. What is the reason that you ignore actual, objective data and

accept subjective expressions? Why do you only accept what ever

confirms what you already believe?

May 18, 2007

On 18 Maj, 18:49, J...@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

> In article <f2k7uu$gb...@news04.infoave.net>, Mike

>

> <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:

> > Jason wrote:

> > > <snip>

>

> > > Jason wrote:

> > >>> Please tell me what lie that I told? I made an honest mistake. An honest

> > >>> mistake is different than a lie. I still don't remember the exact words of

> > >>> the television preacher. I don't take notes when I listen to a sermon.

> > >>> Jason

> > >> Jason, we just can't take your word for anything anymore. What

> > >> difference does it make if you made an honest mistake or if you

> > >> deliberately set out to deceive? I would hope that in the future you

> > >> can get your facts straight.

>

> > >> Frankly, when you say "I believe lots of people lied to me in this

> > >> thread" the impression I get is that you are arguing that it is okay

> > >> for you to lie because other people are lying too. I hope I am wrong

> > >> but I see no other reason for you to use the classic "But they've lied

> > >> too" argument if you are not admitting to (knowingly or unknowingly)

> > >> posting lies. Perhaps you can tell us what lies you've been told on

> > >> this thread.

>

> > >> Martin

>

> > > Martin,

> > > You are correct--it's not a good thing to do say: "Other people lied so

> > > therefore it's okay for me to lie".

> > > The main lie that I have heard is in relation to Planned Parenthood.

>

> > You haven't heard any lies about it unless you read your own posts out loud.