Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted October 25, 2007 Posted October 25, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:34:50 -0700, Jason wrote: >> >> You claim to be correct but don't have a shred of evidence to support >> >> your doctrines. >> >> > Even if I am wrong--I have lost nothing. >> >> He just pointed out where you lose. Where you get sent to hell for >> believing the wrong god, or believing the right one by being smug about it. > > I'm not worried about any of those issues. Then you invalidate your own argument. You say "Even if I am wrong, I have lost nothing" - but you have. So which is it - you actually do worry about these things and actually have objective evidence that you're dealing with the right god, or you do have something to lose and thus your argument is specious - and you're going to do the only honest thing, stop this unfounded belief until you can, in fact, demonstrate objectively you have the right god? No, you'll do neither; you'll persist in believing, despite your belief being invalidated by your own argument, and you'll persist in using such arguments, despite them being invalidated by your own beliefs. I don't think I've ever seen a more stunning case of Fundy Self Nuke before; the only way out is the one you absolutely will not take - that of adopting enough actual honesty to walk away from your belief until you have a reason for it. Any other option contradicts your own stance. -- I am a humble servant of the Lord. Those who work in opposition to God are enemies of God. -- Richard Thorneycroft Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:01:46 -0700, Jason wrote: > If you think heaven is bad--that is not a problem--you will end up in > hell. You just don't get it, do you? There is so little difference between Christian notions of Heaven and Hell it simply does not matter which one ends up in. > Take my word for it--heaven is far better than hell. No, I won't take your word for it. I've thought it through, quite thoroughly. There is no actual benefit to the one over the other. > If you want to > learn what hell is like--read the book entitled, "I Escaped From Hell". > I did not read the book but watched the author as he was being > interviewed on a Christian television show. He stated that the people in > hell were in terrible pain. And as you keep ignoring, Heaven has no option but to also lead to terrible pain. Terrible pain from which there is no escape. No hope. No release. Nothing but the same thing, the same horror, day in, day out, eon upon eon upon eon. Why don't you ever deal with that, Jason? Does the notion of facing it scare the crap out of you? It probably does; you're probably looking forward to Heaven, so the notion it could be as horrific as your notion of Hell would scare the piss right out of you. You don't deal with it because you don't dare allow yourself the slightest doubt. Isn't that about right? Right or not, the fact remains: the Christian notion of Heaven is about the most heinous horror ever created by mind of man. Nothing any human agency has ever accomplished holds a candle to the terror of the mere notion of Heaven. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:41:43 -0700, Jason wrote: > In article <dp42i3hsmsker0ecuvjohen43bnn490h7a@4ax.com>, Al Klein > Many Christians have died for a short period of time and did see heaven. > If you visit any Christian book store, you can buy a book about what they > seen while in heaven. One man that was not a Christian went to hell and > even wrote a book about what he saw while in hell. I believe the name of > his book was "I Escaped From Hell". I don't see a single book listed anywhere by that or a similar title, though there is a DVD called "Escape From Hell", about a man who experiments with near-death experiences and supposedly finds Hell. This is probably the thing you're referring to. It's interesting reading the writeups on this. One, on christiananswers.net, reads (in part) as follows: .... "Dr. Robinson is a classic skeptic. He doesn’t believe in Hell, nor is he willing to place any faith in Jesus. Science is his god." Err... excuse? If Science is his god, he's not a skeptic at all, he's a crank. Thus the reviewers invalidate the entire premise. "While he is close to his mother, a born-again believer in Christ, Eric believes Christianity has nothing to offer him." Of course, he could be a Buddhist, or a Wiccan, or something else. You know, a member of the hundreds or thousands of non-Christian faiths? "Perhaps the most convincing display of how Christ can change lives is seen in his father who appears to try to make ammends from a past riddled by alcoholism and family abandonement." Ah, I see. Christ changes lives by making Daddy atone for his past alcoholism, rather than something useful like stopping Dad from being a boozer in the first place. Yes, well, how wonderfully pointless and useless. You need to get yourself a real god, instead of this useless third-rate piece of crap. "Eric flatlines and finds himself journeying into eternity." If he's flat-lined, he's not finding himself journeying anywhere; his brain is incapable of registering the input. Oh, wait... "flat line" here has nothing at all to do with death, just with heart stoppage, right? So where's Hell come in, since you're not supposed to end up there until after you're dead, meaning whatever happened to him _wasn't_ hell. Either that or the religious folks have been lying to us for a couple millennia, that you can go to hell even without being dead. Interesting. That would mean anyone can in principle make the trip. So, got an address on the place, so we can go check it out? "He eventually ends up in a place of unspeakable torment where he comes across a former patient who was a “good man”." If he's in hell, then presumably he's not a good man. He probably committed some unforgivable sin, like wearing cloth of mixed fibres. "Now why is this churchgoing family man in Hell? that’s what Escape From Hell seeks to explain" No, actually, it doesn't. It attempts to explain why someone on the verge of death has a "mental movie" in which a "good man" ends up in hell, without first establishing the veracity of either Hell, the "good man", or the doctor's trip. "Yet, I must be quick to point out this is not a story for children." I should hope not; that sort of brainwashing should be reserved for those sufficiently critical to file it where it belongs, in the trash bin. Or, at most, on the shelf of horror movies, alongside others of equal veracity, such as Evil Dead and Hellraiser. "The acting is substandard in some areas as well, and the quality of the video feels more like a daytime television show than a blockbuster film. Yet we must remember that it is the gospel being preached here..." Oh? Wasn't this supposed to be a story about what someone saw in Hell? Wasn't this being fobbed off on us as a quasi-objective reporting of actual events? Now we find out it's nothing more than evangelism. Thus someone is lying, by presenting it as something other than what it is. But lying for the Lord is okay, isn't it, eh Jason? -- Why don’t you just swim out ‘til you find him??? -- David Worrell Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 [snips] On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:32:32 +0200, Tokay Pino Gris wrote: >> There are many diseases that cause so much pain that the amount of >> anesthesia required to kill the patient STILL won't even mitigate the >> pain. It's one reason some doctors make mistakes in morphine dosage. > > I would not call it "mistake". > > Tell you the truth, we do it on purpose. > > If the patient is in so much pain, and has no hope whatsoever. What > should we do? Let him die tomorrow with 24 hours of pain or let him die > painless today? > > Tell you another thing. We live with them. We KNOW we gave hin too much > morphine. And that is what killed him today. And not on his own > tomorrow. Something many theists will never grasp - that there is such a thing as enough. A point when there is no reason to go on. A point where their religion requires them to go on, but requiring that is simply sick and twisted sadism, the demand for suffering. The inhumanity of such a religion, the inhumanity of its followers, can be damned for what it is. If I'm facing the end, in pain and no hope, give me a doctor with compassion and conscience, not some twisted, fucked-up sadist with delusions of the glory of suffering unto gods. > We KNOW that it will shorten their lifes.... by a few hours. A few hours less life, but in those few hours, a lifetime of suffering and agony. The few hours lost are nothing compared to the pain relieved. > You have any idea how often the death certificate should say "morphine > overdose" rather than some other horrible cause? Probably not often enough - though I'm not advocating wanton injections of a little too much. -- we are a part of nature, not the masters of it. -- jonny vee Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:53:51 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2410072253520001@67-150-120-74.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: >In article <2aovh3dn15ve9r8t13gokdeoqj0mmidfq1@4ax.com>, Free Lunch ><lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote: .... >> Pascal's Wager is defective. There are many ways you could lose because >> you claim to be a Christian. I won't call it losing if there is no >> heaven, hell or soul, even though that is what the evidence says. Let's >> just consider two possible ways you can be wrong and suffer consequences >> for it: >> >> 1. God hates your self-righeousness and sends you to hell for being so >> smug. >> >> 2. The god that controls the afterlife hates the God you worship and >> sends all of His followers to hell while giving a paradise to those who >> ignore gods and the afterlife. >> >> >Many people believe they are correct. Those sorts of people soon realize >> >that they are not always correct when they lose lots of money by betting >> >on their favorite sports team. I had a friend that honestly believed he >> >could win 100 million dollars in the California lottery. He purchased a >> >thousand dollars worth of ticket. He did not win. He thought he was >> >correct but he was wrong. You believe you are correct but you could be >> >wrong. >> >> You claim to be correct but don't have a shred of evidence to support >> your doctrines. > >Even if I am wrong--I have lost nothing. You are just too lazy and smug to actually bother to read what I wrote. I provided two examples where you would lose because of your beliefs, but your hubris forbids you to consider them. >If you are wrong, you will be spending eternity in hell. So you arrogantly assure me. Clearly you don't pay any attention to what Jesus wrote, because He had no time for people who were self-righteous like you. > I once had a co-worker that was an atheist. He >bragged about having sex with over 100 different women. If I was an >atheist, I probably also would have had sex with over 100 different women. >Which of us is better off? I do not have any sexual related diseases. He >will have Genital Herpes for the rest of his life. I believe that I am >better off than my former co-worker. Jesus has already told us that He has no use for smug, self-righteous people like you. You'll have to get to Heaven on your own. Quote
Guest Free Lunch Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:34:50 -0700, in alt.talk.creationism Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in <Jason-2510071534500001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: >In article <jgs6v4-bu1.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason ><kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > >> [snips] >> >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:53:51 -0700, Jason wrote: >> >> >> 1. God hates your self-righeousness and sends you to hell for being so >> >> smug. >> >> >> >> 2. The god that controls the afterlife hates the God you worship and >> >> sends all of His followers to hell while giving a paradise to those who >> >> ignore gods and the afterlife. >> >> >> You claim to be correct but don't have a shred of evidence to support >> >> your doctrines. >> >> > Even if I am wrong--I have lost nothing. >> >> He just pointed out where you lose. Where you get sent to hell for >> believing the wrong god, or believing the right one by being smug about it. > >I'm not worried about any of those issues. > Of course not. You worship yourself and tell Jesus where He can stick it. Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:32:32 +0200, Tokay Pino Gris <tokay.gris.beau@gmx.net> wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:31:29 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason >> <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> [snips] >>> >>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:02:20 -0700, Jason wrote: >>> >>>> For a person that is dying in terrible pain, there are hospice centers >>>> where people like that receive medications to ease the pain and they are >>>> allowed to die without feeling hardly any pain. >>> No, Jason, there are not. >>> >>> There are many diseases where the pain is so intense that the anaesthetics >>> required to kill the pain would kill the patient. Nice try, though. >> >> There are many diseases that cause so much pain that the amount of >> anesthesia required to kill the patient STILL won't even mitigate the >> pain. It's one reason some doctors make mistakes in morphine dosage. > >I would not call it "mistake". I should have put 'mistake' in quotes. That's how I meant it - the way you mean it. >You have any idea how often the death certificate should say "morphine >overdose" rather than some other horrible cause? A very good idea. >The difference is maybe a day. On the outside. A day of horrible pain and absolutely no quality of life. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow' disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate." - Richard Dawkins Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:41:43 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <dp42i3hsmsker0ecuvjohen43bnn490h7a@4ax.com>, Al Klein ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:08:05 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >In article <5o98krFlquvaU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" >> ><witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> > >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrotesnip >> >> >> >> > Not really. People will spend the rest of eternity in hell or heaven. >> >> >> >> Prove it. >> > >> >You will find all of the proof you need on the day that you die. >> >> I died. There was no heaven. There was no hell. But there WAS >> something all Christians should live in dread of. > >Many Christians have died for a short period of time and did see heaven. No, many Christians have had near death experiences and thought, when they awakened, that what they experienced as their brains shut down was 'heaven'. It was anoxia. That's just another gap your god doesn't live in. The more science learns, the fewer places there are for him to hide in. >If you visit any Christian book store, you can buy a book about what they >seen while in heaven. One man that was not a Christian went to hell and >even wrote a book about what he saw while in hell. I believe the name of >his book was "I Escaped From Hell". And Moslems see Moslem heaven. And Buddhists see what they expect when they die. Every deluded person sees what he expects to see. >Many atheists will end up in hell. Or would, if there were such a place. It's Christians who have to worry about what they'll face when they die. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." -George H. W. Bush, spoken in an interview with Sarah McClendon, June 1992 Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:43:44 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <ri42i31cnals55vemp5nlhe06vrved6dm3@4ax.com>, Al Klein ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:32:18 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >In article <tpednXamOYnARoPanZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@comcast.com>, Charles & Mambo >> >Duckman <duckman@gfy.slf> wrote: >> >> Jason wrote: >> >> >> > Most Christians would NOT consider suicide as a option >> >> >> until it's their ass, then all bets are off. Most Christians are >hypocrites, >> >> after all. >> >> >I now understand one of the reasons the child and teen suicide rates rose >> >for the first time in more than a decade. >> >> The recent rise in Christianity? > >No--the rise in the number of atheists now in the world. The rise in the number of atheists is about none at all. That we're being more vocal doesn't mean that there are more of us. But the kids who commit suicide are almost invariably Christian kids, who probably kill themselves because they've been told that they're worthless sinners, but they're more intelligent than you are, and it bothers them. > I live in California and you would be amazed at the number of atheist related bumper >stickers that I have seen in recent years. Again - that doesn't equate to a rise in the number of atheists, just a rise in the number who aren't going to lie down for Christianity any longer. It's things like Christian boot camps that are causing otherwise intelligent kids to kill themselves. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mohandas Gandhi Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:49:28 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <rf42i3d6uhkktth4gpor9i1p60m1ba18ne@4ax.com>, Al Klein ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:07:18 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >I honestly believe that atheists are more likely to commit suicide in a >> >crisis situation than a Christian. >> >> Which is why a greater percentage of suicides are theists than >> atheists? > >Many pastors no longer teach the truth about what the Bible states about >murder and various other commandments. The head pastor of the largest >church in America rarely even discusses the Bible in his sermons. He is >more like a psychologist than a preacher. His last sermon was related to >self esteem. He has a weekly television show. You're playing bagpipes. "Christianity" doesn't have "Jason" in it. >> > The reason I believe it is because most >> >Christians would fear going to hell if they committed suicide. Atheists >> >don't believe in hell or heaven so many of them would commit suicide to >> >end that crisis situation. >> Atheists also don't see crises in a lot of situations in which theists >> do. >They have many crisis situations such as getting fired from their jobs; >flunking out of college; their mates walking out on them or cheating on >them; being told by their doctors they have cancer and only 3 or less >months to live etc. But not worrying about sin. Not worrying about hell. Not worrying about godly retribution. And not worrying about being worthless little worms, which is what Christian kids are taught they are. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." - Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93 Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:53:00 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >The reason that I believe that atheists would be more likely than >Christians to commit suicide after being told they have cancer or some >other terrible disease is because atheists don't believe they will be sent >to hell if they murder themselves. Atheists know that this is the only life there is, so we hold onto it as long as possible. Christians think there's another life after they die, an eternal one, so a few years more or less in this life doesn't matter much - AND they are, after all, just worthless sinners, not entitled to live. Most kids who attempt suicide and fail say that they're Christians, and that they were afraid of hell, but that they were more afraid of living. VERY few are atheists. A lot more (but nowhere as many as the Christian kids) are Pagans. So all your 'thinking;' is nonsense - what you think and reality have very little in common. Which is about what we've come to expect from you. One of the things you've forgotten would appear to be the ability to think. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I've never had a problem with pollution. If God didn't want smoke in the air, he wouldn't have told us to burn witches." - Stephen Colbert Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:08:27 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >I don't blame any doctor that gives such a patient a morphine overdose. It >should be legal for doctors to do that. It's legal in one state for >doctors to do that--it should be legal in every state. It also, according to Christian belief, assures the doctor of eternity in hell. And, if the patient asks for it, it assures the patient eternity in hell. You aren't a very good Christian, Jason. You aren't even a very competent human being. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:19:46 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: >But lying for the Lord is okay, isn't it, eh Jason? Okay? It's a damned SACRAMENT! They get Jebis points for it. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under- stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism." - 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39 Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2510071543440001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <ri42i31cnals55vemp5nlhe06vrved6dm3@4ax.com>, Al Klein > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:32:18 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > >In article <tpednXamOYnARoPanZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@comcast.com>, Charles & Mambo > > >Duckman <duckman@gfy.slf> wrote: > > >> Jason wrote: > > > > >> > Most Christians would NOT consider suicide as a option > > > > >> until it's their ass, then all bets are off. Most Christians are > > >> hypocrites, after all. > > > > >I now understand one of the reasons the child and teen suicide rates rose > > >for the first time in more than a decade. > > > > The recent rise in Christianity? > > No--the rise in the number of atheists now in the world. I live in > California and you would be amazed at the number of atheist related bumper > stickers that I have seen in recent years. Yet again, you demonstrate your impeccable "research" techniques. Did your TeeVee liar tell you it's okay to use bumper stickers as a means of demographic study? -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2410071608060001@67-150-124-72.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <5o98krFlquvaU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > > > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrotesnip > > > > > Not really. People will spend the rest of eternity in hell or heaven. > > > > Prove it. > > You will find all of the proof you need on the day that you die. No one will find anything once he or she is dead. -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2510071541440001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Many Christians have died for a short period of time and did see heaven. This has been dealt with. -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2410071607180001@67-150-124-72.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > I honestly believe that atheists are more likely to commit suicide in a > crisis situation than a Christian. What you "honestly believe" has no bearing on what is . -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2510071601460001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Take my word for it Now why would I -- or anyone -- do such a foolish thing? -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2410072253520001@67-150-120-74.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > Even if I am wrong--I have lost nothing. If you are wrong, you will be > spending eternity in hell. If you haven't Googled "Pascal's Wager" yet... you probably should. You will see how wrong-headed this argument is. -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest 655321 Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <Jason-2510071534500001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article <jgs6v4-bu1.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > > > [snips] > > > > On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:53:51 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > > >> 1. God hates your self-righeousness and sends you to hell for being so > > >> smug. > > >> > > >> 2. The god that controls the afterlife hates the God you worship and > > >> sends all of His followers to hell while giving a paradise to those who > > >> ignore gods and the afterlife. > > > > >> You claim to be correct but don't have a shred of evidence to support > > >> your doctrines. > > > > > Even if I am wrong--I have lost nothing. > > > > He just pointed out where you lose. Where you get sent to hell for > > believing the wrong god, or believing the right one by being smug about it. > > I'm not worried about any of those issues. Why not? -- 655321 "We are heroes in error" -- Ahmad Chalabi Quote
Guest Elf M. Sternberg Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 Jason@nospam.com (Jason) writes: > The reason that I believe that atheists would be more likely than > Christians to commit suicide after being told they have cancer or some > other terrible disease is because atheists don't believe they will be sent > to hell if they murder themselves. On the other hand, many Christians do > believe they will be sent to hell if they murder themselves so they would > be less likely to commit suicide. So, given no hope of recovery, one group suffers in terrible pain and the other doesn't. Which group is wisest? Elf -- Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988 http://www.pendorwright.com/ "You know how some people treat their body like a temple? I treat mine like issa amusement park!" - Kei Quote
Guest Jason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <lsf2i3pqabu173gjujd5pmem1oh4gv1cbi@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:43:44 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >In article <ri42i31cnals55vemp5nlhe06vrved6dm3@4ax.com>, Al Klein > ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:32:18 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > >> >In article <tpednXamOYnARoPanZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@comcast.com>, Charles & Mambo > >> >Duckman <duckman@gfy.slf> wrote: > >> >> Jason wrote: > >> > >> >> > Most Christians would NOT consider suicide as a option > >> > >> >> until it's their ass, then all bets are off. Most Christians are > >hypocrites, > >> >> after all. > >> > >> >I now understand one of the reasons the child and teen suicide rates rose > >> >for the first time in more than a decade. > >> > >> The recent rise in Christianity? > > > >No--the rise in the number of atheists now in the world. > > The rise in the number of atheists is about none at all. That we're > being more vocal doesn't mean that there are more of us. > > But the kids who commit suicide are almost invariably Christian kids, > who probably kill themselves because they've been told that they're > worthless sinners, but they're more intelligent than you are, and it > bothers them. > > > I live in California and you would be amazed at the number of atheist related bumper > >stickers that I have seen in recent years. > > Again - that doesn't equate to a rise in the number of atheists, just > a rise in the number who aren't going to lie down for Christianity any > longer. It's things like Christian boot camps that are causing > otherwise intelligent kids to kill themselves. According to the 2005 issue of the Time Almanac, these were the suicide rates for 4 different years. Age 15 to 19 years old--deaths per 100,000 1950 2.7 1960 3.6 2000 8.0 2001 7.9 The suicide rate for young people was much higher for young people in 2000-2001 than it was in 1950 and 1960. I believe that one of the reasons is because so many of the young people in 2000 and 2001 were not Christians. Do you agree or disagree. Quote
Guest Jason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <DipthotDipthot-E7F8AB.19010825102007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>, 655321 <DipthotDipthot@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > In article > <Jason-2510071543440001@67-150-173-216.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, > Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > In article <ri42i31cnals55vemp5nlhe06vrved6dm3@4ax.com>, Al Klein > > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:32:18 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > > > > > >In article <tpednXamOYnARoPanZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d@comcast.com>, Charles & Mambo > > > >Duckman <duckman@gfy.slf> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > > > > > > >> > Most Christians would NOT consider suicide as a option > > > > > > >> until it's their ass, then all bets are off. Most Christians are > > > >> hypocrites, after all. > > > > > > >I now understand one of the reasons the child and teen suicide rates rose > > > >for the first time in more than a decade. > > > > > > The recent rise in Christianity? > > > > No--the rise in the number of atheists now in the world. I live in > > California and you would be amazed at the number of atheist related bumper > > stickers that I have seen in recent years. > > Yet again, you demonstrate your impeccable "research" techniques. Did > your TeeVee liar tell you it's okay to use bumper stickers as a means of > demographic study? Good point. My Time Almanac does not have any statistics related to the number of atheists in America in 1950 compared to 2005. I also could not find those statistics on the internet. Do you believe there is now a higher percentage of atheists in America than there was in 1950? I do Quote
Guest Jason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <2eo7v4-bu1.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > [snips] > > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:41:43 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > In article <dp42i3hsmsker0ecuvjohen43bnn490h7a@4ax.com>, Al Klein > > Many Christians have died for a short period of time and did see heaven. > > If you visit any Christian book store, you can buy a book about what they > > seen while in heaven. One man that was not a Christian went to hell and > > even wrote a book about what he saw while in hell. I believe the name of > > his book was "I Escaped From Hell". > > I don't see a single book listed anywhere by that or a similar > title, though there is a DVD called "Escape From Hell", about a man who > experiments with near-death experiences and supposedly finds Hell. This > is probably the thing you're referring to. > > It's interesting reading the writeups on this. One, on > christiananswers.net, reads (in part) as follows: > > ... > > "Dr. Robinson is a classic skeptic. He doesn’t believe in Hell, nor is he > willing to place any faith in Jesus. Science is his god." > > Err... excuse? If Science is his god, he's not a skeptic at all, he's a > crank. Thus the reviewers invalidate the entire premise. > > "While he is close to his mother, a born-again believer in Christ, Eric > believes Christianity has nothing to offer him." > > Of course, he could be a Buddhist, or a Wiccan, or something else. You > know, a member of the hundreds or thousands of non-Christian faiths? > > "Perhaps the most convincing display of how Christ can change lives is > seen in his father who appears to try to make ammends from a past riddled > by alcoholism and family abandonement." > > Ah, I see. Christ changes lives by making Daddy atone for his past > alcoholism, rather than something useful like stopping Dad from being a > boozer in the first place. Yes, well, how wonderfully pointless and > useless. You need to get yourself a real god, instead of this useless > third-rate piece of crap. > > "Eric flatlines and finds himself journeying into eternity." > > If he's flat-lined, he's not finding himself journeying anywhere; his > brain is incapable of registering the input. Oh, wait... "flat line" here > has nothing at all to do with death, just with heart stoppage, right? So > where's Hell come in, since you're not supposed to end up there until > after you're dead, meaning whatever happened to him _wasn't_ hell. Either > that or the religious folks have been lying to us for a couple millennia, > that you can go to hell even without being dead. Interesting. That would > mean anyone can in principle make the trip. So, got an address on the > place, so we can go check it out? > > "He eventually ends up in a place of unspeakable torment where he comes > across a former patient who was a “good man”." > > If he's in hell, then presumably he's not a good man. He probably > committed some unforgivable sin, like wearing cloth of mixed fibres. > > "Now why is this churchgoing family man in Hell? that’s what Escape From > Hell seeks to explain" > > No, actually, it doesn't. It attempts to explain why someone on the verge > of death has a "mental movie" in which a "good man" ends up in hell, > without first establishing the veracity of either Hell, the "good man", or > the doctor's trip. > > "Yet, I must be quick to point out this is not a story for children." > > I should hope not; that sort of brainwashing should be reserved for those > sufficiently critical to file it where it belongs, in the trash bin. Or, > at most, on the shelf of horror movies, alongside others of equal > veracity, such as Evil Dead and Hellraiser. > > "The acting is substandard in some areas as well, and the quality of the > video feels more like a daytime television show than a blockbuster film. > Yet we must remember that it is the gospel being preached here..." > > Oh? Wasn't this supposed to be a story about what someone saw in Hell? > Wasn't this being fobbed off on us as a quasi-objective reporting of > actual events? Now we find out it's nothing more than evangelism. Thus > someone is lying, by presenting it as something other than what it is. > > But lying for the Lord is okay, isn't it, eh Jason? I done my own google search for "Escape From Hell" and found this: Amazon.com: Escape from Hell: Video: Keiji Sada,Mariko Okada,Takahiro Tamura,Rentaro Mikuni,Masahiko Tsugawa,Kan Nihonyanagi,Nakajiro Tomita,Seiji Miyaguchi ... http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Hell-Keiji-Sada/dp/6305281912 Quote
Guest Jason Posted October 26, 2007 Posted October 26, 2007 In article <bnf2i310mftkdvq44m1gltjd2lcgkt1aq8@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:41:43 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >In article <dp42i3hsmsker0ecuvjohen43bnn490h7a@4ax.com>, Al Klein > ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:08:05 -0700, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > >> >In article <5o98krFlquvaU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> ><witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrotesnip > >> >> > >> >> > Not really. People will spend the rest of eternity in hell or heaven. > >> >> > >> >> Prove it. > >> > > >> >You will find all of the proof you need on the day that you die. > >> > >> I died. There was no heaven. There was no hell. But there WAS > >> something all Christians should live in dread of. > > > >Many Christians have died for a short period of time and did see heaven. > > No, many Christians have had near death experiences and thought, when > they awakened, that what they experienced as their brains shut down > was 'heaven'. It was anoxia. That's just another gap your god > doesn't live in. The more science learns, the fewer places there are > for him to hide in. > > >If you visit any Christian book store, you can buy a book about what they > >seen while in heaven. One man that was not a Christian went to hell and > >even wrote a book about what he saw while in hell. I believe the name of > >his book was "I Escaped From Hell". > > And Moslems see Moslem heaven. And Buddhists see what they expect > when they die. Every deluded person sees what he expects to see. > > >Many atheists will end up in hell. > > Or would, if there were such a place. It's Christians who have to > worry about what they'll face when they die. What will you do if the Christians are right? That means you will be spending eternity in hell. Quote
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