Guest Jason Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 In article <p256j3djt7cg4phherkgk6dva7svqjui6k@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:27:00 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >In article <MPG.219bee4e977e1c5998a2d4@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>, James > >Beck <jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote: > >> In article <Jason-0711071218260001@66-53-212-85.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, > >> Jason@nospam.com says... > > >> > > > Mercy killings are performed every day in America. I don't know how many > >> > > > are performed each day. > > >> > > Then why did you assert that "many different doctors perform mercy killings > >> > > every day"? > > >> > Because I believe that statement. > > >> Just like your belief in the old man in the sky, believing it does not > >> make it so. I believe in facts, not feelings. > > >Mercy killing is legal in one state. Mercy killing is legal in various > >countries. Therefore, many different doctors perform mercy killings every > >day. > > You already said, "I don't know how many are performed each day", so > how can you now say that you DO know? You're directly contradicting > your own statement. Not really. Let's use other examples. I don't know how many stars that are in the sky but I know there are at least some stars in sky. I don't know how many colleges there are in America but I know there are at least some colleges in America. I don't know how many medical doctors there are in America but I know there are some doctors in America. I could go on and on and on but I hope that you got have already got my point. Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 In article <5pgo4vFqui8dU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:Jason-0711071327010001@67-150-123-232.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com... > > In article <MPG.219bee4e977e1c5998a2d4@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>, James > > Beck <jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote: > > > >> In article <Jason-0711071218260001@66-53-212-85.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, > >> Jason@nospam.com says... > >> > In article <5pe02lFqsumtU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> > <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > > "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > >> > > news:Jason-0611071918480001@66.53.220.228... > >> > > > In article <jc62j35r2l218rb27tooj038aq3ukium69@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >> > > > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:57:25 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >> >In article <5pbareFqkdqsU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" > >> > > >> ><witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message > >> > > >> >> news:2doui3lgc0aba28k52qp9umuq6uhc4hfls@4ax.com... > >> > > >> >> > On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:38:13 -0500, "Robibnikoff" > >> > > >> >> > <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >>"Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote > >> > > >> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >>snip > >> > > >> >> >>> I did not mean that every doctor does mercy killings every > >> > > >> >> >>> day. > >> > > > My point > >> > > >> >> >>> was that many different doctors conduct mercy killings > > every day. > >> > > >> >> >> > >> > > >> >> >>Cite? > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > Jason-proof. http://tinyurl.com/24bq6o Over 1.5 MILLION > > hits, so > >> > > >> >> > it > >> > > >> >> > must be so. > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > http://tinyurl.com/ytve2s is also interesting. > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> Are you fucking kidding me? THIS is his proof? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >If you choose to believe that no doctors ever perform mercy > >> > > > killings--so be it. > >> > > >> > >> > > >> You can't tell the difference between "there's at least one mercy > >> > > >> killing performed a day" and "no mercy killings are ever > >> > > >> performed"? > >> > > > > >> > > > Mercy killings are performed every day in America. I don't know how > >> > > > many > >> > > > are performed each day. > >> > > > >> > > Then why did you assert that "many different doctors perform mercy > > killings > >> > > every day"? > >> > > >> > Because I believe that statement. > >> > > >> Just like your belief in the old man in the sky, believing it does not > >> make it so. I believe in facts, not feelings. > >> > >> Jim > > > > Mercy killing is legal in one state. Mercy killing is legal in various > > countries. Therefore, many different doctors perform mercy killings every > > day. > > Not necessarily. The last sentence is just your opinion - not fact. You are correct. Quote
Guest Mike Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <fgv416$im5$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> I feel the same way about the stupid people that repeat over and over and >>> over that Iran is developing nuclear materials that will be used for >>> peaceful purposes. Every intelligent person knows that Iran could use oil >>> to produce all of the electric power that is needed. >> No, every INTELLIGENT person (which leaves you out) knows that you need >> to diversify your energy sources since oil won't last forever (and since >> nuclear power can't be used to grease axles with and make plastics, etc. >> I.e. if you have an alternative, use it and save the oil for those >> things that we don't have alternatives for.) > > You left out one of the uses for nuclear materials---nuclear weapons. You left out one of the uses for a brain--thinking. I didn't leave anything out. I simply pointed out why a country that has oil might want to generate power using nuclear reactors. Quote
Guest Mike Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <p256j3djt7cg4phherkgk6dva7svqjui6k@4ax.com>, Al Klein > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:27:00 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >>> In article <MPG.219bee4e977e1c5998a2d4@newsgroups.bellsouth.net>, James >>> Beck <jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote: >>>> In article <Jason-0711071218260001@66-53-212-85.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>, >>>> Jason@nospam.com says... >>>>>>> Mercy killings are performed every day in America. I don't know > how many >>>>>>> are performed each day. >>>>>> Then why did you assert that "many different doctors perform > mercy killings >>>>>> every day"? >>>>> Because I believe that statement. >>>> Just like your belief in the old man in the sky, believing it does not >>>> make it so. I believe in facts, not feelings. >>> Mercy killing is legal in one state. Mercy killing is legal in various >>> countries. Therefore, many different doctors perform mercy killings every >>> day. >> You already said, "I don't know how many are performed each day", so >> how can you now say that you DO know? You're directly contradicting >> your own statement. > > Not really. Yes, really. Saying "Mercy killings are performed every day in America" implies, at a MINIMUM, 365 killings/year. So yes, you DID claim to know a minimum number of them. > Let's use other examples. I don't know how many stars that are > in the sky but I know there are at least some stars in sky. There's a difference between "there are stars in the sky" (meaning a minimum of 2) and "there are enough stars in the sky that you could name one every day." I don't know > how many colleges there are in America but I know there are at least some > colleges in America. Ditto. I don't know how many medical doctors there are in > America but I know there are some doctors in America. I could go on and on > and on but I hope that you got have already got my point. No, because your "point" is wrong. Quote
Guest Mike Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <fgv6jt$lhf$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <fgsmu2$5v5$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >>> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >>>> Show us evidence that there is a "mercy killing" at least once a day >>>> somewhere. >>> It was an educated guess >> There isn't a damned thing that'd "educated" about you. >> >> since mercy killing is legal in at least one >>> state. In addition, it's my understanding that mercy killing is legal in >>> various countries. Many doctors in various states in America conduct mercy >>> killings without anyone ever knowing about it. For example, they will give >>> overdoses of various drugs and later claim that a mistake was >>> made--especially if the police investigate the case. If you know any >>> nurses, ask them whether or not they know about any mercy killings. >> Are space shuttle launches legal? Of course, they are. Are they launched >> "every day"? Of course they aren't. >> >> Just because something is legal (or even if it's not) and just because >> it happens, it doesn't mean it happens at least once a day. > > I will concede that if we are only discussing America--you may be correct. I'm correct even if you selected the whole universe. I'm NOT saying mercy killings do NOT happen daily. I'm simply saying that you haven't proved that they DO happen daily. > Perhaps there are some days in America that no mercy killings take place. > However, I hope that you will concede that at least one mercy killing > takes place in at least one country in this world every day. No, I won't. The same logic holds no matter if you select just the USA or the whole world: just because something's legal, it's not always common. It's my > understanding that mercy killing is legal in various countries. And launching space shuttles is legal in ALL countries. But there's still not a shuttle launch every day. Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:14:59 -0500, Mike wrote: > False quadricotomy<g> Okay, what has wheat-like grain got to do with anything? > There's also the 5th possibility: you ask for forgiveness for all future > since when you're "saved." So that would mean a person could become > "saved" and then go out and commit all kinds of mayhem and be > protected/forgiven for it. But that would leave us "poor atheists" > screwed. Actually, that - according to many - wouldn't work, as to be forgiven you need to honestly repent (i.e. be sorry you did it) and, depending who you ask, also atone. To say "please forgive me for what I'm _going_ to do" wouldn't work, as if you were honestly repentant, you simply wouldn't do it in the first place. > Also Jason HAS basically said that suicide IS a mortal sin when he said > "but a person could take some pills and then ask for forgiveness before > they take full effect" (or words to that effect. I don't have the exact > quote at hand.) If suicide isn't a mortal sin (i.e. one that will send > you to hell if not forgiven) then why would the person need to worry > about such? Expecting Jason to be consistent - or even coherent - is a touch silly. -- “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.” -- George Bernard Shaw Quote
Guest Tokay Pino Gris Posted November 8, 2007 Posted November 8, 2007 Mike wrote: > Kelsey Bjarnason wrote: >> [snips] >> >> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800, Jason wrote: >> >>>> Why do you hate people so much you'd want to see them suffer eternally, >>>> simply because they're suffering here and want to end it? >>> I never stated that suicide is an unpardonable sin. I believe that is a >>> teaching of the Catholic church. I am not a Catholic. >> >> Last I checked, the reasoning behind it went something like this: >> >> A sin can be forgiven, but only if the person who committed it asks for >> forgiveness. >> >> A dead person cannot ask forgiveness. >> >> Thus suicide involves the sin of killing - murder, if you prefer - >> without >> any ability to ask forgiveness for having committed the sin, thus >> there can >> be no forgiveness, thus the person is condemned. >> >> So. Does forgiveness come _without_ asking for it? If so, we atheists >> don't need to do a damn thing. Does it come from someone _else_ >> asking we >> be forgiven? I'm sure there are a few folks, somewhere, praying along >> those lines - "please forgive everybody" - so we atheists again don't >> need >> to do a damned thing. How nice; in contradiction to pretty much >> everything the resident theists would have us believe, if either of these >> is true, everyone - believer or not - is virtually guaranteed >> forgiveness. >> >> Of course, we're still left with two possibilities, one being that >> killing >> isn't a sin, in which case much of the history of the church is >> excused, >> but we've also just invalidated a lot of other nonsense, such as the >> religious anti-abortion stance: go ahead and kill, not like there's any >> spiritual/moral reason not to. >> >> Or, of course, the last option, in which the dead can in fact ask for and >> receive forgiveness, in which case we atheists will be in the >> situation to >> "change our minds later" - see God and ask forgiveness then. >> >> None of which gives anyone a compelling reason to waste time and >> energy on >> the religion; after all, since you're virtually guaranteed to be forgiven >> and/or given a chance to ask it after you're dead, why waste your time >> dicking around with something so pointlessly tedious here? >> >> Ain't that sweet; Jason's pet fantasies come down to a choice between >> making his religion essentially irrelevant, or admitting that murder >> (even >> of self) isn't a sin so feel free, go ahead. > > False quadricotomy<g> "Tetrapilotomy" is also nice... but is something else, come to thing of it... The art of slitting a hair in four. Might be useful at times.. > > There's also the 5th possibility: you ask for forgiveness for all future > since when you're "saved." So that would mean a person could become > "saved" and then go out and commit all kinds of mayhem and be > protected/forgiven for it. But that would leave us "poor atheists" screwed. > > Also Jason HAS basically said that suicide IS a mortal sin when he said > "but a person could take some pills and then ask for forgiveness before > they take full effect" (or words to that effect. I don't have the exact > quote at hand.) If suicide isn't a mortal sin (i.e. one that will send > you to hell if not forgiven) then why would the person need to worry > about such? What I find extremely hilarious is that these are all "technicalities".... In essence, by that funky book, you could live a life in "sin" (though I as yet have no real idea what that is supposed to be), confess on your death bed and go to heaven... On the other hand you can live a life absolutely by that book, say "goddamnit", get run over by a bus and land in hell.... Funny, isn't it? Tokay -- Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same. Oscar Wilde Quote
Guest Richard Clayton Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <T1vYi.5441$b%1.2615@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton > <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein >>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>> >>>>> In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein >>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They >>>>>>> are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. >>>>>>> Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. >>>>>> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? >>>>> I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their >>>>> death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and >>>>> that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER >>>>> watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to >>>>> agree with me. >>>>> >>>> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts >>>> against it. >>> Each case is different. I have stating in several posts that mercy killing >>> should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in >>> severe pain. In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he >>> wants to be mercy killed. Those are the mercy killings that I am in favor >>> of. >>> >>> Of course, I am not in favor of the mercy killing of healthy people. >> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose > not to >> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? > > According to the 2005 edition of the Time Almanac--30,622 Americans > committed suicide in 2001. > > If people want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do about > it. It's my opinion that doctors should not help healthy people to commit > suicide. There is one famous book that provides detailed instuctions on > various ways to commit suicide. You didn't answer my questions. Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose not to live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? -- [The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.] Richard Clayton "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Quote
Guest 655321 Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Mike wrote: > Jason wrote: >> In article <fgv416$im5$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike >> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >> >>> Jason wrote: >>>> I feel the same way about the stupid people that repeat over and >>>> over and >>>> over that Iran is developing nuclear materials that will be used for >>>> peaceful purposes. Every intelligent person knows that Iran could >>>> use oil >>>> to produce all of the electric power that is needed. >>> No, every INTELLIGENT person (which leaves you out) knows that you >>> need to diversify your energy sources since oil won't last forever >>> (and since nuclear power can't be used to grease axles with and make >>> plastics, etc. I.e. if you have an alternative, use it and save the >>> oil for those things that we don't have alternatives for.) >> >> You left out one of the uses for nuclear materials---nuclear weapons. > > You left out one of the uses for a brain--thinking. > > I didn't leave anything out. I simply pointed out why a country that has > oil might want to generate power using nuclear reactors. Besides which, pretending to know the ins and outs of another country's energy needs, when one is a marginally educated and sub-marginally thoughtful wingnut, is symptomatic of an intellectual coma. All this is empirical evidence that arrogance can survive -- and even thrive -- in such an environment. -- 655321 Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:34:38 -0500, Mike <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> Most of it is based on the writings of people who were witnesses >> (there's NO eyewitness testimony of Jesus), and most of that is >> backed up by OBJECTIVE evidence (there's objective evidence that the >> Biblical Jesus - as defined in the Bible - never existed.) > ><devil's advocate> > >An alien comes to earth with the ability to transmute elements, >transport in things, advanced medical abilities, etc. and no honesty at >all. This alien could have performed the miracles that were mentioned in >the bible. There was a sci-fi story, many years ago, about a human visiting a primitive alien culture, and acting as their Jesus - being crucified, etc. (Of course he had some pretty good painkillers to help him.) JESUS was the one who claimed he was the son of god so that >was a case of him describing himself that way and not the bible >describing him (likewise for the "believe in me and your sins are >forgiven", etc.) So I don't see anything in the bible's new testament >that couldn't have been done by an alien with "sufficiently advanced >technology." That's the problem with trying to prove something didn't >happen. Even the exodus could have happened and still left no traces, >etc. if there were BEM's with super-advances porti-potties, etc. He couldn't have come from Nazareth because there was no human habitation there until centuries later. >Now do I believe that such aliens exist? Of course not. But it doesn't >prove that they don't. >Generally, we can't ever prove that something didn't exist/happen. But we can prove that some very well-defined something didn't. For instance, if someone were to claim, in a millennium or two, that he visited the World Trade Center in 2005 (or in 1958). -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back." - - Tolstoy as/on Jesus Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <mup805-6vq.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason ><kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason wrote: >> >> > In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein >> > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >> > >> >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> >In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They >> >> >are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. >> >> >Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. >> >> >> >> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? >> > >> > I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their >> > death beds and in terrible pain. >> >> But suicide, according to many, is the one unpardonable sin. So you're >> arguing for the sending of such people straight into the torments of >> hell and eternal damnation, and probably taking the doctor with them. >> >> Why do you hate people so much you'd want to see them suffer eternally, >> simply because they're suffering here and want to end it? > >I never stated that suicide is an unpardonable sin. I believe that is a >teaching of the Catholic church. I am not a Catholic. > The Ten Commandments are accepted not only by ALL Christians, but by Jews, as well. And the 6th commandment (the RC 5th commandment) prohibits killing people. -- Al at Webdingers dot com He is one of those orators of whom it was well said, 'Before they get up, they do not know what they are going to say; when they are speaking they do not know what they are saying; and when they have sat down they do not know what they have said.' - Winston Churchill Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:22:23 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >The Catholics base many of their beliefs on church tradition. So do all Christian sects. > Most non-Catholics base their beliefs on the Bible--not church tradition. ALL Christian sects do. MOST of Christianity isn't found in the Bible. > The Bible does NOT state that suicide is an unpoardonable sin. But killing people is, and assisted suicide is killing someone. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow' disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate." - Richard Dawkins Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:23:32 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein >> ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >> > >> >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >> >> >> >In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They >> >> >are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. >> >> >Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. >> >> >> >> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? >> > >> >I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their >> >death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and >> >that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER >> >watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to >> >agree with me. >> > >> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts >> against it. > >Each case is different. Each case is someone suffering from an incurable illness, and suffering until he/she dies. What are the differences that count? >I have stating in several posts that mercy killing >should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in >severe pain. That's the law. > In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he >wants to be mercy killed. That's also the law. Turning off the machines doesn't come under the assisted suicide laws, which is what's being discussed here. "Mercy killing" is too vague to have any legal meaning. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "I've never had a problem with pollution. If God didn't want smoke in the air, he wouldn't have told us to burn witches." - Stephen Colbert Quote
Guest Kelsey Bjarnason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 [snips] On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:58:35 +0100, Tokay Pino Gris wrote: > What I find extremely hilarious is that these are all "technicalities".... > > In essence, by that funky book, you could live a life in "sin" (though I > as yet have no real idea what that is supposed to be), confess on your > death bed and go to heaven... > On the other hand you can live a life absolutely by that book, say > "goddamnit", get run over by a bus and land in hell.... > > > Funny, isn't it? Not in the slightest, actually, but that's what you expect when the head honcho is portrayed to be the sort of sick, twisted villain theirs is. -- Believe in a loving God, infidel, or die! Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:19:43 GMT, Richard Clayton <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: >Jason wrote: >> In article <T1vYi.5441$b%1.2615@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton >> <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: >>> Jason wrote: >>>> Of course, I am not in favor of the mercy killing of healthy people. >>>Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose not to >>> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? >> According to the 2005 edition of the Time Almanac--30,622 Americans >> committed suicide in 2001. >> If people want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do about >> it. It's my opinion that doctors should not help healthy people to commit >> suicide. There is one famous book that provides detailed instuctions on >> various ways to commit suicide. >You didn't answer my questions. Jason doesn't answer questions, he posts non sequiturs in the hope that we'll forget our questions. He thinks everyone can be distracted by little tricks the way he is. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." - Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order. Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:24:37 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <5pgo4vFqui8dU1@mid.individual.net>, "Robibnikoff" ><witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote: >> "Jason" <Jason@nospam.com> wrote in message >> news:Jason-0711071327010001@67-150-123-232.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com... >> > Mercy killing is legal in one state. Mercy killing is legal in various >> > countries. Therefore, many different doctors perform mercy killings every >> > day. >> Not necessarily. The last sentence is just your opinion - not fact. >You are correct. And you're not. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "Christians tell us that they love their enemies, and yet all I ask is - not that they love their friends even, but they treat those who differ from them , with simple fairness. We do not wish to be forgiven but we wish Christians to so act that we will not have to forgive them." - Robert Ingersoll Quote
Guest Al Klein Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:23:59 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >In article <p256j3djt7cg4phherkgk6dva7svqjui6k@4ax.com>, Al Klein ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:27:00 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >> >Mercy killing is legal in one state. Mercy killing is legal in various >> >countries. Therefore, many different doctors perform mercy killings every >> >day. >> You already said, "I don't know how many are performed each day", so >> how can you now say that you DO know? You're directly contradicting >> your own statement. >Not really. Let's use other examples. I don't know how many stars that are >in the sky but I know there are at least some stars in sky. I don't know >how many colleges there are in America but I know there are at least some >colleges in America. I don't know how many medical doctors there are in >America but I know there are some doctors in America. So, although you don't know how many mercy killings take place you know that some take place. And that's all you know. Whether some take place every day, or only one takes place a year, all you know is that some take place, not how many or how often. > I could go on and on >and on but I hope that you got have already got my point. That you're lying? Yes. -- Al at Webdingers dot com "Christians tell us that they love their enemies, and yet all I ask is - not that they love their friends even, but they treat those who differ from them , with simple fairness. We do not wish to be forgiven but we wish Christians to so act that we will not have to forgive them." - Robert Ingersoll Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <zINYi.13084$h17.8834@trnddc04>, Richard Clayton <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <T1vYi.5441$b%1.2615@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton > > <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They > >>>>>>> are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. > >>>>>>> Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. > >>>>>> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? > >>>>> I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their > >>>>> death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and > >>>>> that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER > >>>>> watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to > >>>>> agree with me. > >>>>> > >>>> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts > >>>> against it. > >>> Each case is different. I have stating in several posts that mercy killing > >>> should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in > >>> severe pain. In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he > >>> wants to be mercy killed. Those are the mercy killings that I am in favor > >>> of. > >>> > >>> Of course, I am not in favor of the mercy killing of healthy people. > >> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose > > not to > >> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? > > > > According to the 2005 edition of the Time Almanac--30,622 Americans > > committed suicide in 2001. > > > > If people want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do about > > it. It's my opinion that doctors should not help healthy people to commit > > suicide. There is one famous book that provides detailed instuctions on > > various ways to commit suicide. > > You didn't answer my questions. > > Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose not to > live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? Yes--a person does own his own life. Yes--a person does have the right to choose not to live any longer, even if in perfect physical health. Summary: A person does have free will. Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <7dc7j3dpdttlmapdlnc3rmf1kpd9ev14iv@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:23:32 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein > ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> > >> >In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >> ><rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They > >> >> >are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. > >> >> >Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. > >> >> > >> >> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? > >> > > >> >I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their > >> >death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and > >> >that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER > >> >watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to > >> >agree with me. > >> > > >> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts > >> against it. > > > >Each case is different. > > Each case is someone suffering from an incurable illness, and > suffering until he/she dies. What are the differences that count? > > >I have stating in several posts that mercy killing > >should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in > >severe pain. > > That's the law. > > > In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he > >wants to be mercy killed. > > That's also the law. > > Turning off the machines doesn't come under the assisted suicide laws, > which is what's being discussed here. "Mercy killing" is too vague to > have any legal meaning. I don't believe you are correct. In the state that mercy killing is legal--the rules are probably spelled out. For example, a doctor is not allowed to mercy kill a person unless the patient signes the proper forms. Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <u6c7j3t3rabnvbv368oljamch4a2e19e9s@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:19:54 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >In article <mup805-6vq.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>, Kelsey Bjarnason > ><kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason wrote: > >> > >> > In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >> > <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy killings. They > >> >> >are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. > >> >> >Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. > >> >> > >> >> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? > >> > > >> > I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their > >> > death beds and in terrible pain. > >> > >> But suicide, according to many, is the one unpardonable sin. So you're > >> arguing for the sending of such people straight into the torments of > >> hell and eternal damnation, and probably taking the doctor with them. > >> > >> Why do you hate people so much you'd want to see them suffer eternally, > >> simply because they're suffering here and want to end it? > > > >I never stated that suicide is an unpardonable sin. I believe that is a > >teaching of the Catholic church. I am not a Catholic. > > > The Ten Commandments are accepted not only by ALL Christians, but by > Jews, as well. And the 6th commandment (the RC 5th commandment) > prohibits killing people. That commandent is "Do Not Murder". It is not "Do Not kill". Back in those days, it was legal to stone people to death. That was not a violation of the commandment since it was not considered to be "murder". Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <lac7j39n7hl73vcihi0nf4urd7n3a3ks25@4ax.com>, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:22:23 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > > >The Catholics base many of their beliefs on church tradition. > > So do all Christian sects. > > > Most non-Catholics base their beliefs on the Bible--not church tradition. > > ALL Christian sects do. MOST of Christianity isn't found in the > Bible. > > > The Bible does NOT state that suicide is an unpoardonable sin. > > But killing people is, and assisted suicide is killing someone. The Bible does not state that killing people is a sin. The Bible states that murdering people is a sin. Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <faOYi.1583$sm1.1412@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>, 655321 <DipthotDipthot@Yahoo.Yahoo.Com.Com> wrote: > Mike wrote: > > Jason wrote: > >> In article <fgv416$im5$1@news04.infoave.net>, Mike > >> <prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Jason wrote: > >>>> I feel the same way about the stupid people that repeat over and > >>>> over and > >>>> over that Iran is developing nuclear materials that will be used for > >>>> peaceful purposes. Every intelligent person knows that Iran could > >>>> use oil > > >>>> to produce all of the electric power that is needed. > >>> No, every INTELLIGENT person (which leaves you out) knows that you > >>> need to diversify your energy sources since oil won't last forever > >>> (and since nuclear power can't be used to grease axles with and make > >>> plastics, etc. I.e. if you have an alternative, use it and save the > >>> oil for those things that we don't have alternatives for.) > >> > >> You left out one of the uses for nuclear materials---nuclear weapons. > > > > You left out one of the uses for a brain--thinking. > > > > I didn't leave anything out. I simply pointed out why a country that has > > oil might want to generate power using nuclear reactors. > > Besides which, pretending to know the ins and outs of another country's > energy needs, when one is a marginally educated and sub-marginally > thoughtful wingnut, is symptomatic of an intellectual coma. All this is > empirical evidence that arrogance can survive -- and even thrive -- in > such an environment. > -- > 655321 The president of Iran and one of the chief clerics in Iran has already stated that their goal is for Muslims to take over Israel. Intelligent people know the real reason that Iran is developing nuclear materials. The Muslims want to take over the earth. Quote
Guest Richard Clayton Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Jason wrote: > In article <zINYi.13084$h17.8834@trnddc04>, Richard Clayton > <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > >> Jason wrote: >>> In article <T1vYi.5441$b%1.2615@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton >>> <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason wrote: >>>>> In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein >>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein >>>>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy > killings. They >>>>>>>>> are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. >>>>>>>>> Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. >>>>>>>> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? >>>>>>> I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their >>>>>>> death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and >>>>>>> that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER >>>>>>> watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to >>>>>>> agree with me. >>>>>>> >>>>>> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts >>>>>> against it. >>>>> Each case is different. I have stating in several posts that mercy killing >>>>> should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in >>>>> severe pain. In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he >>>>> wants to be mercy killed. Those are the mercy killings that I am in favor >>>>> of. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I am not in favor of the mercy killing of healthy people. >>>> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose >>> not to >>>> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? >>> According to the 2005 edition of the Time Almanac--30,622 Americans >>> committed suicide in 2001. >>> >>> If people want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do about >>> it. It's my opinion that doctors should not help healthy people to commit >>> suicide. There is one famous book that provides detailed instuctions on >>> various ways to commit suicide. >> You didn't answer my questions. >> >> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose > not to >> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? > > Yes--a person does own his own life. Yes--a person does have the right to > choose not to live any longer, even if in perfect physical health. > > Summary: A person does have free will. Okay, so you stipulate that a man's life is his own. If he wants to throw it away, then, as is his right, why do you feel others should not be expected to respect his wishes? -- [The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.] Richard Clayton "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Quote
Guest Jason Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 In article <PnRYi.5629$b%1.2150@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > Jason wrote: > > In article <zINYi.13084$h17.8834@trnddc04>, Richard Clayton > > <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > > > >> Jason wrote: > >>> In article <T1vYi.5441$b%1.2615@trnddc01>, Richard Clayton > >>> <pockZIGetnZIGerd@verizon.net> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Jason wrote: > >>>>> In article <mep4j3hac8g27vdpp9rnt4hb7gkak7jmjg@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:16:11 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> In article <pe62j31r05im470hi9ce847l9gf9v6ji75@4ax.com>, Al Klein > >>>>>>> <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:00:22 -0800, Jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> In one state, it's now legal for doctors to conduct mercy > > killings. They > >>>>>>>>> are now trying to make mercy killings in Californa to be legal. > >>>>>>>>> Eventually, mercy killings will be legal in almost every state. > >>>>>>>> Why are you against making it easier for the dying to commit suicide? > >>>>>>> I believe that option should be available for everyone that is on their > >>>>>>> death beds and in terrible pain. I have watched a close relative die and > >>>>>>> that relative had great amounts of pain and suffering. If you have NEVER > >>>>>>> watched a relative die in that sort of situation--I don't expect you to > >>>>>>> agree with me. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> You're claiming to be in favor of it, but you keep making posts > >>>>>> against it. > >>>>> Each case is different. I have stating in several posts that mercy killing > >>>>> should only be performed on people that are on their death beds and in > >>>>> severe pain. In addition, that person should have told the doctor that he > >>>>> wants to be mercy killed. Those are the mercy killings that I am in favor > >>>>> of. > >>>>> > >>>>> Of course, I am not in favor of the mercy killing of healthy people. > >>>> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose > >>> not to > >>>> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? > >>> According to the 2005 edition of the Time Almanac--30,622 Americans > >>> committed suicide in 2001. > >>> > >>> If people want to kill themselves, there is not much anyone can do about > >>> it. It's my opinion that doctors should not help healthy people to commit > >>> suicide. There is one famous book that provides detailed instuctions on > >>> various ways to commit suicide. > >> You didn't answer my questions. > >> > >> Does a person own his own life? Does he have the right to choose > > not to > >> live any longer, even if in perfect physical health? > > > > Yes--a person does own his own life. Yes--a person does have the right to > > choose not to live any longer, even if in perfect physical health. > > > > Summary: A person does have free will. > > Okay, so you stipulate that a man's life is his own. If he wants to > throw it away, then, as is his right, why do you feel others should not > be expected to respect his wishes? Now you know the reason that millions of people are not in favor of mercy killing. It's called the "slippery slope". When "mercy killings" becomes a law--only people on their death beds that have signed the proper forms will be mercy killed. After several more years, people like you file law suits and demand that the law should also apply to anyone that wants to die. After several more years, a 20 year person that is depressed because they failed a college exam can legally be mercy killed. After several more years, the relatives of a sick old rich man will demand that that the old rich man should be mercy killed so they can get the old man's money ASAP. The rich old man may not even want to be mercy killed but that will not matter. We are now at the bottom of the slippery slope: A new law is past which states that all people will me mercy killed when they become 70 years old. Is it any wonder why mercy killing is only legal in one state? It's because millions of people realize what will happen 20 years from now after mercy killing becomes a law in their states. Quote
Guest Charles & Mambo Duckman Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Jason wrote: > No--it's an educated guess You should have this tattooed on your forhead. -- Come down off the cross We can use the wood Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House Quote
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