Holocaust Myth?

[fullauto]

Auschwitz is central to the Holocaust legend. If it can be proved that the official stories we have been told about Auschwitz are not true, the entire fabric of the Holocaust ultimately has to unravel. What, then, did happen at Auschwitz?

 

On April 18, 1945, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, The New York Times reported that 4 million people died at Auschwitz. This "fact" was reported over and over again during the next half-century, without being questioned.

 

However, on January 26, 1995, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation, both The Washington Post and The New York Times itself reported that the Polish authorities had determined that, at most, 1.5 million people (of all races and religions)

[Mohammed_Rots_In_Hell]

Part of a really great article I read a few weeks back... The star of david was used to demark the jews... Who else would it be for? Are you gonna mark the Catholics (many of which died at hitler's behest)? No, You mark jews with the star... Bit of a stupid question... I hope you see that...

 

I'm not questioning whether or not it happened... I'm questioning the accuracy of the numbers involved, and the racial makeup of those killed...

 

I content that

 

1: Many fewer people died in those camps than originally reported

2: Many people other than jews died there as well

3: More people died as a result of typhous than did Zyklon-B

 

I am still waiting for someone to 'straighten' me out about these 3 topics... I'm sure someone here knows a bit of something I don't and can shed some new evidence on it, but all I get is people calling me stupid, and saying they knew someone who knew someone!

 

fullauto, I truelly believ that the numbers are accurate. I just doubt the reasons that so many were killed at the hands of the nazis.

 

1) Towards the end of the war, specifically November 1944 thru April 1945 the german infrastructure was under serious attack by the allies, saturation bombings of Heidleburg, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, etc, etc, was designed to halt the infrastucture of the German war machine (ie. their ability to supply troops and feed troops, etc.) It stands to reason that prisoners would be adversely effected as well. All of those pictures of walking skeletons after the war were a direct result of the infrastucture breakdown of nazi germany.

 

2) A live slave building roads is much more valuable to the war effort than a dead slave. I can see them killing off the sick and elderly, but wholesale slaughter of healthy individuals (as well as children) is preposterous... There is simply no need in it.

 

3) I believe many human experiments took place as well. The "Zyklon-B gas" for example ,was probably a more of a chemical weapons test, than a result of the "final solution".

 

4) The evidence that is used against the nazis consists of approximately 25 nazi memos, and a handful of eye witnesses.

 

I don't think the nazis really gave a shit about the plight of the jews , but I doubt they went out of their way to exercize the final solution either.

 

Another interesting piece of trivia is that the nazis developed the use of screws and pins for orthopedic trauma care. They probaby used human test subjects (jews)... but even still, no one wants to admit that the nazis did anything good at all.

 

I think the nazis were evil. I think islam is evil... If you look deep enough you can find some good in both...

[fullauto]

fullauto, I truelly believ that the numbers are accurate. I just doubt the reasons that so many were killed at the hands of the nazis.

 

1) Towards the end of the war, specifically November 1944 thru April 1945 the german infrastructure was under serious attack by the allies, saturation bombings of Heidleburg, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, etc, etc, was designed to halt the infrastucture of the German war machine (ie. their ability to supply troops and feed troops, etc.) It stands to reason that prisoners would be adversely effected as well. All of those pictures of walking skeletons after the war were a direct result of the infrastucture breakdown of nazi germany.

 

good point... if even half of the deaths attributed to 'the final solution' were actually adverse effects of allied bombing, coupled with a national food shortage, than the numbers of ALL deaths (not just jewish) would be much lower... But as you say later, I think it would be foolish to kill off your slave labor out of blind hatred, and all evidence leads me to believe that while indifferent to the plight of the jews and all those in prison, they hardly went out of thier way to destroy them... If that were the case, why try at all to deport them first? Especially if, as claimed, nazi goals consisted of world domination... If they planned to take the world, they would have to deal with the jews eventually anyway! So Why try and deport them first?

 

And if they wanted to kill ALL the jews eventually, why bother to set up such amenaties as a postal system for them and allow them to send and recieve mail?

 

 

Liebster Bruder und Schw

[snafu]

Sure we can say that Nazi’s gave us technology as well.

So what?

So they saved us some time from figuring the shit out ourselves.

 

They did separate the slave’s into workable ones, sick and old.

Hitler declared the total elimination of the Jews. Period!

If I were a Jew at the time of his rants, I would have declared war as the photo of the kid holding the newspaper.(probably would not have made it to long though). Did you see any Jewish brigades? Troops?

 

It stands to reason that when the war structure failed, the less fortunate would die of disease and hunger first. Are you implying that it was our fault that so many died? We broke down their War structure? We were carpet bombing the shit out of Germany. I'm sure got a Jew or two in there too.

They did exterminate more than just Jews. We can all agree on this.

 

But in the method they were doing it was systematic extermination. Call it what you want but Auschwitz was fitted with the means for this. They had three camps. Some… fuck it I’ll google it up!

 

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/index.php

 

They had the work camps but the way it was designed was to exterminate mass people!! One way in. Smoke stack out!

 

Fuck it! I call that a Holocaust!

[fullauto]

Sure we can say that Nazi

[snafu]

I can’t read blueprints to well but your telling me these are fake?

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/krematorium_komora_4_ok.html

 

I don't think so.

 

We also have other photos of the stacks in action. I don't know if I can find them on google but I saw it on the History channel. The jest of the episode was how much of what was happing did we know and not do anything about it. Like blow it up! We knew they were bringing them in on the train and they wern't leaving. The camp could only hold so many people.

 

I get where your coming from and can agree to an extent. It was a Holocaust of epic proportions on everybody. Not just the Jews.

The Jews run with it because as we all know they are the persecuted ones.

So what is a holocaust?

 

Holocaust:

Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

 

Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).

A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).

A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.

 

 

 

I believe that had Hitler won there would have been total genocide toward the Jews.

I guess I bought into it.

[quarky]

The holocaust DID happen... however, it was not a JEWISH thing alone...

 

Agreed, the Nazis exterminated most of the European gypsies and a number of other monitories, however because there numbers were never as great as the Jews, there deaths made up the bulk of the killings.

 

I have heard all the arguments from people saying the holocaust never happened and if it did, it wasn

[pjbuk]

It's worth looking at this page....

 

http://www.honestmediatoday.com/ever_diminishing_holocaust.htm

 

Especially the images of Red Cross documents detailing the death tolls after the war, these are well known on the net but always seem to be dismissed, even though they have been repeatedley verified by Red Cross officials. They tell a very different story on the numbers and were the official documents from after the war. Scroll down the page to see them.

[snafu]

It's worth looking at this page....

 

http://www.honestmediatoday.com/ever_diminishing_holocaust.htm

 

Especially the images of Red Cross documents detailing the death tolls after the war, these are well known on the net but always seem to be dismissed, even though they have been repeatedley verified by Red Cross officials. They tell a very different story on the numbers and were the official documents from after the war. Scroll down the page to see them.

 

Jesus Christ! we've already gone through this. How in the fuck can you prove to me that every life was accoutned for? They burned records. They tried to destroy as much as posible before they left. You think they didn't kill them as soon as they got there? We can go around and around and around. THERE IS NO MYTH!!!!!!! IT HAPPENED!!!! How many? who the fuck knows? Will we ever know the correct number? FUCK NO!

 

How many sick people do you think they kept on hand? They can't feed their own armies as fullauto ponted out.

 

Answer me this. Where’s the records of them treating the sick? Were are the records of the sick (not malnourished) that survived?

 

I’m not gonna google it!

[snafu]

It's worth looking at this page....

 

http://www.honestmediatoday.com/ever_diminishing_holocaust.htm

 

Especially the images of Red Cross documents detailing the death tolls after the war, these are well known on the net but always seem to be dismissed, even though they have been repeatedley verified by Red Cross officials. They tell a very different story on the numbers and were the official documents from after the war. Scroll down the page to see them.

 

Jesus Christ! we've already gone through this. How in the fuck can you prove to me that every life was accoutned for? They burned records. They tried to destroy as much as posible before they left. You think they didn't kill them as soon as they got there? We can go around and around and around. THERE IS NO MYTH!!!!!!! IT HAPPENED!!!! How many? who the fuck knows? Will we ever know the correct number? FUCK NO!

 

How many sick people do you think they kept on hand? They can't feed their own armies and like fullauto said they wern't gonna feed them before their own army.

[jokersarewild]

Yeah, like Snafu, I have been to the Holocaust Museum in DC, and I saw the shoes, I saw the pictures of the "medical research" done by German scientists on the Jews. FullAuto is right in that Jews weren't the only ones persecuted. But Hitler made sure that quite a few were killed.

 

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp

[tiredofwhiners]

Yeah, like Snafu, I have been to the Holocaust Museum in DC, and I saw the shoes, I saw the pictures of the "medical research" done by German scientists on the Jews. FullAuto is right in that Jews weren't the only ones persecuted. But Hitler made sure that quite a few were killed.

 

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp

 

I also was there it really gave me a Erie feeling going threw. But going through left no doubt in my mind it was real. I could be wrong but wasn't there still a gas chamber or oven still standing somewhere?

[snafu]

Yeah, like Snafu, I have been to the Holocaust Museum in DC, and I saw the shoes, I saw the pictures of the "medical research" done by German scientists on the Jews. FullAuto is right in that Jews weren't the only ones persecuted. But Hitler made sure that quite a few were killed.

 

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/response.asp

 

That's were I went. In DC.

Do you remember the smell?

Wow I couldn't get rid of it for weeks!

[jokersarewild]

I think there is still one in Dachau.

 

http://jrcycle7.tripod.com/images/Dachau_14_-_Gas_Chamber.JPG

 

Yeah, I think if everyone replying to this thread had actually been to that museum, like FA, This would barely even be an argument.

 

And you cannot walk be this and still tell me this whole thing is faked...

 

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2001/200103164e.jpg

 

And you can barely see on these arms what they are showing you, but it is their numbers, tatooed into them for recognition, I think. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2001/200103164a.jpg

 

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/destinations/images/b/us_dc_ea_fdgdc16_b.jpg

^^^^three story tower...I will give you 3 guesses on what the pictures are...

[jokersarewild]

That's were I went. In DC.

Do you remember the smell?

Wow I couldn't get rid of it for weeks!

 

I do. I was more focused on the fucked up pictures in the little center thing in one of the rooms talking about the medical experiments, such as seeing how long a Jew could last in cold water so that the scientists would know how well they would need to make the uniforms for the pilots so that they wouldn't die.

[tizz]

I have been to that museum and yes, it is disturbing. BUT, I think the controversy is less over whether it happened or not and more about historical accuracy. I think people are under the impression that the numbers are fudged, and there is such a huge fight about attaining accuracy, because somehow the jewish people WANT to either hold onto what happened or use it as a means of gain at least in public opinion and sympathy. Either way, it is still important to at least try to attain historical accuracy in order to keep an objective view and truly LEARN from our past.

 

There is no question that the numbers are exaggerated, but to what degree s unknown because if you try to investigate you re labeled an anti-Semite and in some instances you can be jailed for it. That fact alone does not help stop the controversy much

[jokersarewild]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Death_toll

 

You could be right...but I have a feeling that they aren't too exaggerated. I know feelings aren't fact,but the site is.

[fullauto]

That's were I went. In DC.

Do you remember the smell?

Wow I couldn't get rid of it for weeks!

 

Not to be a smart ass or anything...

But what smell are you refering to?

 

I know Washington DC smells pretty bad... And I'm sure that Dachau smelt pretty bad... But how did the Holocaust Museum in DC smell bad? And that begs the question... Why did it smell bad? The holocaust happened across the ocean... Did they bottle the smell and import it? Or did they have the nice volks from CSI Germania chemicaly analyze it and have it reproduced here specifically to prove how bad it smelt?

 

I had 28 friends die on a Jet I was supposed to be on in Alaska, and that smell sticks with me to this day... But, when I go to the Elemendorf Awacs crash memorial, It doesn't smell bad! It's actually kind of nice... Flowers and such... some nice words by the wing commander... They don't spray it down with entrails every morning so you can fucking relive that day whenever you go to reflect!

 

If it did indeed smell that bad, I'm going to have to guess that the smell you associate with the death camps is not authentic... And I can't get this feeling out of my head that something is just not right with that...

 

Does anyone else think this is suspect? Like someone is trying too damned hard to keep something going?

 

Sorry... I call em like I smell em... Something just is not right...

 

I would rather be the only one who is wrong, than be wrong with a bunch of other people just to be part of the crowd...

[jokersarewild]

No, it wasn't a smell like the "camps", but there was a smell. Kinda hard to describe, really.

[snafu]

Yeah I think you have a point.

It smelled bad not because of the death camps but that the shoes, clothing and other relics were just that. Very old! So maybe they did that on purpose. You leave a bunch of old laundry out for 50 years, it gets pretty ripe.

I never thought of it as a ploy to exaggerate anything.

If it was a ploy it worked on me because it made me sick to my stomach. Add the photo’s and such and it made a profound effect on me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do. I was more focused on the fucked up pictures in the little center thing in one of the rooms talking about the medical experiments, such as seeing how long a Jew could last in cold water so that the scientists would know how well they would need to make the uniforms for the pilots so that they wouldn't die.

 

 

I think that was the focal point of the whole place.

[fullauto]

I would like to just stop and reiterate my position before you people start to think I am condoning The wholesale slaughter of possibly millions of people...

 

Nein!

 

What was done, on whatever scale is agreed upon, is inexcusable... Had Hitler just stuck to his original guns, and deported them all, I would not have a problem... Democracy at its core is a majority rule system, and the Jews, regardless of how powerful, were a minority in Germany at that time... And If the German people one day woke up and said collectively, "WTF!? We invite these people here when no one else will have them peaceably, and the refuse to assimilate, stab us in the back, and then attempt to starve us into submission... Fuck that! Get out!"... No problem... As long as the transition is done as peacefully as possible, and the ones 'asked' to leave are compensated... No problem...

 

But, exterminations, medical testing, etc... is inexcusable... EVERYONE, I believe has the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... But no one says you have to pursue it in Germany!

 

My problem with the holocaust is less shallow, and tugs at my distrust of foreign powers as of late... What I see is a people with a 'sorted' record to say the least, trying to capitalize on Western Generosity and sympathy for far too long, by allowing blatant lies and deceit to become mainstream knowledge, perpetuated by the very media they control these days...

 

I love Israel as an ally against Islam... They are tough scrappy, and seem to have know fear or shortage of balls! But if the US has learned one thing from our Post WWI exploits, it should be that the enemy of our enemy is not nessecerily our friend!

 

The Soviets, Bin Laden, Saddam, Castro... These people were all considered allies at one time or another and even championed and supplied in an effort to Secretly combat our foes!

 

We need to keep in mind that while we have similar enemies, Israel has a completely different set of end game goals.

 

We also need to stop fighting these covert wars against our enemies, and stand up like men and fight them in the open... Don't supply their rival in an attempt to look like we are benevolent... Everyone knows we are sons of bitches... Don't fight Iran by giving Saddam weapons... Don't fight Saddam by trading weapons for hostages with Iran... Dint fight the Soviets by giving Bin Laden Stingers... Don't invade Cuba by dropping off a bunch of poorly trained, shitty equipped Cuban Exiles on a beach and then not give them air support!

 

Give them a fucking ultimatum, and if they don't back down... Drill em good!

 

Now more than ever we need to rethink our friends and allies, and I think a GREAT place to start is in Europe... and at the core of our relationship with Europe is what happened During and after WWI... We need to take a good long hard look at just what REALLY HAPPENED, and decide if we should come clean and bury the hatchet and show some solidarity, or let other nations/people dictate what part of history we are allowed to remember or debate...

 

History is written by the victors, but even the victors from time to time must come clean and rethink their own stories! Times are changing, and if we don't change with them, we will no longer be part of them, let alone lead them...

[pjbuk]

Jesus Christ! we've already gone through this. How in the fuck can you prove to me that every life was accoutned for? They burned records. They tried to destroy as much as posible before they left. You think they didn't kill them as soon as they got there? We can go around and around and around. THERE IS NO MYTH!!!!!!! IT HAPPENED!!!! How many? who the fuck knows? Will we ever know the correct number? FUCK NO!

 

How many sick people do you think they kept on hand? They can't feed their own armies as fullauto ponted out.

 

Answer me this. Where

[pjbuk]

What is Holocaust Denial?

 

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

 

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: [1]

 

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

 

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

 

Six Million?

 

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." [2]

 

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

 

Human Soap?

 

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." [3]

 

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. [4]

 

Wannsee Conference?

 

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." [5]

 

Extermination Policy?

 

Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews, that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews: the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter. But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised, three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. [6] As Holocaust historian Christopher Browning has noted: [7]

 

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised. Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: "Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given.

 

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of German-Canadian publisher Ernst Z

[pjbuk]

Gas Chambers

 

What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that

 

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

 

H

[fullauto]

Excellent post... good looking doing your homework... that is, if you did indeed read it, and not just post it...

 

It's good to see that not everyone is afraid to do a little research, even if the subject is offensive...