Do you follow your instincts?

[builder]

It's interesting to see how this thread focuses on Meat Body Think.

 

It's all neurons, synapses and animal instinct, hey?

 

Where is spirituality in all of this?

 

Rising above the mechanics of meat and the physical universe we have the spirit, capable of simply knowing.

 

The Glorious Thinkers can huddle, dissect and discuss, and in the end there are always those pieces left over. The pieces that never fit, the inexplicable magic that doesn't fit the puzzle. They'll never fit, because the basic premise is wrong. The premise that begins with "all is meat", "all is physical" dooms resolution from the outset.

 

In any equation, the spirit is the predominant factor.

 

Brilliant post. Absolutely brilliant Skater.

[builder]

An example of this is the following story. Its really more like common sense at times.

 

I was dating someone who told me a story about how when he worked at a grocery store he helped his Mom steal from that grocery store. Of course this was when he was a teenager. That was a HUGE red flag to me but I didn't have enough confidence in myself and I ignored it. Later when I found out that he was lying to me and his Mother was helping him, I saw the full circle of the behavior.

I learned the hard way with a couple of relationships that when a person lives by lying, it spreads into all their relationships, or at least has the potential to. For example, you hear your boyfriend on the phone lying to his boss about being sick, we've all done it, that in and of itself is not that big a deal, but then you notice that whenever he needs to get out of a tough situation he lies to his parents, his friends, his girlfriend (me).

After seeing that kind of thing, I listen very carefully when people talk about themselves. I always ask alot of questions when getting to know someone, I imagine people sometimes feel like I am cross examining them. I find that people often drop things that add up to a picture of who and what they are, almost like they want to see if your smart enough to figure it out. Depending on what I see and hear, I sort of grade them on how much or how little I trust them.

Really more common sense in this case then a feeling.

 

I ask people that know me well if they want me to lie to them.

 

It puts them in the position of choosing to hear an excuse or hearing the truth.

 

Oh, and there is no such thing as "common sense". There is nothing common about it.

[slip_knot]

I read all about female intuition once

 

It's that certain little something that tells a woman shes right - usually when shes wrong...

[sixes]

It's interesting to see how this thread focuses on Meat Body Think.

 

It's all neurons, synapses and animal instinct, hey?

 

Where is spirituality in all of this?

 

Rising above the mechanics of meat and the physical universe we have the spirit, capable of simply knowing.

 

The Glorious Thinkers can huddle, dissect and discuss, and in the end there are always those pieces left over. The pieces that never fit, the inexplicable magic that doesn't fit the puzzle. They'll never fit, because the basic premise is wrong. The premise that begins with "all is meat", "all is physical" dooms resolution from the outset.

 

In any equation, the spirit is the predominant factor.

 

I love her! hehe

[skategreen]

Brilliant post. Absolutely brilliant Skater.

 

Thank You, Buildy Dear.

 

('n you too Sixes!)

[eisanbt]

It's interesting to see how this thread focuses on Meat Body Think.

 

It's all neurons, synapses and animal instinct, hey?

 

Where is spirituality in all of this?

 

Rising above the mechanics of meat and the physical universe we have the spirit, capable of simply knowing.

 

The Glorious Thinkers can huddle, dissect and discuss, and in the end there are always those pieces left over. The pieces that never fit, the inexplicable magic that doesn't fit the puzzle. They'll never fit, because the basic premise is wrong. The premise that begins with "all is meat", "all is physical" dooms resolution from the outset.

 

In any equation, the spirit is the predominant factor.

 

 

 

I've not in my life experienced anything that is beyond explanation, I do not believe in the spirt. Too often is coincidence romanticised and those who believe in such things are far to ready to accept them as the answer when no consideration is given to full analyse. Let us not mistake somebody not yet finding an explanation for there not being a rational explanation for the oddities of our world.

 

We know all chemicals are subject to the same laws, that is chemistry. The chemicals which make up a human are nothing out of the ordinary and are therefore subject to the same principals. We know beforehand how an acid will react to a base for example. The ability to predict can be applied to humans as well, the problem being that our system is far too complex for us to work out at present (Maybe in the future, if it could be found to be practical/ ethical). This alone nulls the thought of a soul or the existence of a 'mind' for me and many others.

 

ANYHOW, I'm all about logic. There is a logic which can be universally applied, its near mathematical for Christ's sake. Following this logic I have seen gets the user exactly where they wish it to so long as it's done properly (That is unless they fuck-up). Although there are many X-factors which can be hard to figure out, playing the odds is your best option. An example would be counting cards in a poker match; It gives you a HUGE advantage over those who simply play it by luck/instinct.

 

This is my stance. Please give us an example, if you may, of an occasion where we can accept nothing but the human spirt as an explanation or deciding factor in a situation, I'd be interested to see it stand up to a full logical criticism by yourself.

[skategreen]

This is nice and meaty.... let's dig in a bit.....

 

I would venture that the concept of "coincidence" can be used as a giant blanket to discount just about absolutely anything. It's sooooo easy to just shrug even the wildest occurences off as "Hrump! Coincidence!". I could give you some examples of of sheer knowingness and spirit in my life... however, that Handy Coincidense Stamp could be whipped outta the back pocket and the Nay Sayer nods wisely, his point made.

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"Types of Coincidences

The phenomenon we loosely term "coincidence" comprises many classes of events, including:

 

The happy (long-lost lovers rediscover each other by accident)

The amusing (a potato grows in a shape resembling Richard Nixon's profile)

The mundane (neighbors share the same birthday)

The fortunate (a hunch bet on a roulette wheel pays off)

The eerie (a man is hit and killed by a car he'd sold ten years earlier)

The life-saving (a last-minute change in travel plans heads off disaster)

The tragic (sisters are killed when their vehicles collide as they travel to visit each other)"

 

With the handy back pocket God "coincidence"... a man could walk outside with hands outstretched and say, "I would like a potato in my hands"... a potato could suddenly fall outta the sky into his hands, and the Sage would then whip out his stamp..."Coincidence!!!"

 

There is no argument or debate that would win over the observer.

 

Knowingness is personal. You know what you know.

Any and all manner of folk can come knocking at your door telling you that you don't really know it, and it really matters not. You know what you know.

 

Those of Meat Body think, may chalk it up to Meat Body ability to Know. Others may attribute it to something beyond matter-energy-space-time (physical universe) meat ... ie: spirit.

 

 

 

I've not in my life experienced anything that is beyond explanation, I do not believe in the spirt.

 

Really? Really? You can actually explain everything? Do you have to fall back on the coincidense crutch, or do you have an actual explanation? At any rate... this almost makes me feel sorry for you. I absolutely hold dear the magical wonderful times of knowingness and the ability of the spirit over the physical universe.

 

 

Too often is coincidence romanticised and those who believe in such things are far to ready to accept them as the answer when no consideration is given to full analyse. Let us not mistake somebody not yet finding an explanation for there not being a rational explanation for the oddities of our world.

 

We know all chemicals are subject to the same laws, that is chemistry. The chemicals which make up a human are nothing out of the ordinary and are therefore subject to the same principals. We know beforehand how an acid will react to a base for example. The ability to predict can be applied to humans as well, the problem being that our system is far too complex for us to work out at present (Maybe in the future, if it could be found to be practical/ ethical). This alone nulls the thought of a soul or the existence of a 'mind' for me and many others.

 

This sounds like you're saying, "it can all be explained, we can't do it yet, cuz it's so complex, but someday we'll be able to explain it all". ... So there's no such thing as the magical knowingness of spirit, and all is meat and physical universe, and anything that doesn't fit, well, it's still not spirit and someday you'll be able to prove it to me?

 

ANYHOW, I'm all about logic. There is a logic which can be universally applied, its near mathematical for Christ's sake. Following this logic I have seen gets the user exactly where they wish it to so long as it's done properly (That is unless they fuck-up). Although there are many X-factors which can be hard to figure out, playing the odds is your best option. An example would be counting cards in a poker match; It gives you a HUGE advantage over those who simply play it by luck/instinct.

 

This is my stance. Please give us an example, if you may, of an occasion where we can accept nothing but the human spirt as an explanation or deciding factor in a situation, I'd be interested to see it stand up to a full logical criticism by yourself.

 

 

Ohhhh you want me to explain and prove spirit do you? Ohhh this makes me smile. As I said, the magic stuff, you could rubber stamp it with some sort of Serendipity Ribbon, or worse yet, some garbled (totally unproven) psycho-babble. (yawwwn .. back to neurons and synapses)

 

Rather than with one of my cherished baubles of wielding my spiritual prowess, (these are not going to be served up for penny-ante mud slinging or debate) I'll illustrate thusly:

 

The concept is not the thing.

 

We are capable of concepts. We create them, we take them away from experiences. They're personal, and ours. But they are not the thing.

Your concept of your favorite meal is not the meal. It's better than the physical universe, it belongs in the realm of the spirit.

 

For this reason, we recall the exquisite taste of vanilla ice cream, that time in the summer, we were on the stoop, it was hot out..and the ice cream, ooooh the ice cream... there's never... ever...been anything like it.

 

Years later, when we eat vanilla ice cream, we can reflect ..and muse,.. we tip our invisible hat to THAT ice cream. This one, it's not the same, we'll never have that one again...

 

Because...

 

what we are holding so dear..what we are remembering..is not the thing. It's not the actual ice cream. It's our concept of it. It's what we took away and now hold.

 

Artists splash their colors upon a canvas, and though they may be pleased with the result, it's not "quite it" .. it can't capture the actual concept. A writer, with a mighty grasp of words, describes, tells the story...and communicates..but.. it never actually matches. We're pleased, when - "it comes close".

 

The feeling, the concept..is not of the physical universe and so can not be described or formed with objects of the physical universe.

 

We can only try

we can only come close.

 

Reaching out with spiritual hands...to touch.

[eisanbt]

With the handy back pocket God "coincidence"... a man could walk outside with hands outstretched and say, "I would like a potato in my hands"... a potato could suddenly fall outta the sky into his hands, and the Sage would then whip out his stamp..."Coincidence!!!"

 

There is no argument or debate that would win over the observer.

 

Knowingness is personal. You know what you know.

Any and all manner of folk can come knocking at your door telling you that you don't really know it, and it really matters not. You know what you know.

 

Those of Meat Body think, may chalk it up to Meat Body ability to Know. Others may attribute it to something beyond matter-energy-space-time (physical universe) meat ... ie: spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

Really? Really? You can actually explain everything? Do you have to fall back on the coincidense crutch, or do you have an actual explanation? At any rate... this almost makes me feel sorry for you. I absolutely hold dear the magical wonderful times of knowingness and the ability of the spirit over the physical universe.

 

 

 

 

This sounds like you're saying, "it can all be explained, we can't do it yet, cuz it's so complex, but someday we'll be able to explain it all". ... So there's no such thing as the magical knowingness of spirit, and all is meat and physical universe, and anything that doesn't fit, well, it's still not spirit and someday you'll be able to prove it to me?

 

 

 

 

Firstly my reasoning with the sciences of chemistry and physics is NOT "I'll prove you wrong later". With what we know is its theoretically possible, there is not reason we couldn't except for the factor of time. If I wanted to figure out your next action it could be done but we'd have to consider the countless reactions happening not only within you but also those of your environment. This takes far too much time and when it was finally all figured out you'd probably be in your grave thereby making it completely impractical. But there is not account for the super-naturel that needs to be taken.

 

 

Now as for your explanation I am a tad confused as to your connection between spirt and the ability to conceptualize. The images and memories brought forth in our minds are not intangible first of all. Our brain acts as both recorder and projector, these systems are chemical. However why this comes about, in a broader sense, is a matter of psychology.

 

As a Martial-Artist, Musician as well as a Conventional Artist I certainly understand the feeling of "Its not quite right" (Too often do I scream "NO THAT’S NOT IT AT ALL!!" and toss my works aside into the garbage )

However I recognize that this is all part of my psyche, not only as a human but as a being with unique experiences. Now let us keep in mind the telescoping nature of our scientific disciplines, this can be explained as such (My apologies for those who aren't math wizs);

 

-Psych tells us that ABC=6 (Not really of course, just for example purposes)

 

-Biology Tells us that A=1 therefore a biologist looks at the problem as 1BC=6.

 

-Chemistry tells us that B=2 therefore from a Chemical standpoint 1x2B=6

 

-Physics tells us that C=3 therefore from a physics standpoint 1x2x3=6. Physics is your base science.

 

The above all use what we know from the physics world in simplified forms. In otherwords they don't need to know how the clock's gears work in order to tell the time. Therefore it is unnecessary to figure out A, B and C when practising Psychology as we (As a whole) already know them for sure. Its just easier to not have to calculate all the tiny details such as ionic reactions and whatnot.

 

 

As for the use of the term coincidence I guess it is not an argument in of itself as really, by the logic I'm presenting, there is no coincidence and only reaction. It is not an argument that needs to be fallen back upon.

 

I don't quite understand why this concept scares so many people. Perhaps it may have something to do with the saying "If all is physical information than our love too is physical". I could see this setting off many. Sensations such as love, or when something is just right in a work of art, hold such a special meaning to us that to break them down to the same level as pastry baking might seem disgraceful and rob them of the significance.

 

I'll readily submit that my feelings of special moments are nothing more then the aforementioned, but that does not make them any less special or significant to ME. You know that the time you stuck your finger in the socket involved your Autonomic Nervous System pulling your hand away and is the reason you didn't end up with deformed skin, so why is it that this would be any different for that time you and your friend were relaxing by the creek one time when you were 14. The moment was good for you, but that does not put it past the governing laws of our universe (That includes our brains).

 

You can think with your heart, just remember that your heart is a creation of your mind.

(First good topic I've encountered in awhile, thanks builder, and skate for the civil and enjoyable argument )

[builder]

Just one thing, Skategreen.

 

How do you postulate spirituality in justifying intuition in this thread, while denying prayer as a methodology of spirituality in another thread?

 

[skategreen]

Just one thing, Skategreen.

 

How do you postulate spirituality in justifying intuition in this thread, while denying prayer as a methodology of spirituality in another thread?

 

 

 

The truth of whether or not man is in actual fact a spirit inhabiting a meat body is not founded on the Christian Fairy Tale Version of God.

 

One can have the simple truth - man is a spirit, and in the physical universe he has a mind to use and a body to use.

 

Then we have the war of Story Telling as to how it all came about and what the rules are. (and...what the penalties are for not playing by the rules)

[builder]

The truth of whether or not man is in actual fact a spirit inhabiting a meat body is not founded on the Christian Fairy Tale Version of God.

 

Granted. There is no proof, and the Jury is still out on that one.

Is humankind above the animals, or merely a bunch of beasts with the gift of speech, in any number of dialects?

 

One can have the simple truth - man is a spirit, and in the physical universe he has a mind to use and a body to use.

 

Man is a spirit??? Taking a human form? Is that what you meant? So when the body is spent, so too is the spirit?

 

Then we have the war of Story Telling as to how it all came about and what the rules are. (and...what the penalties are for not playing by the rules)

 

Meaning the testament and the commandments? Right? Follow me and my laws, or be forever doomed to the pit of anxiety and fire?

[eisanbt]

The truth of whether or not man is in actual fact a spirit inhabiting a meat body is not founded on the Christian Fairy Tale Version of God.

 

One can have the simple truth - man is a spirit, and in the physical universe he has a mind to use and a body to use.

 

Then we have the war of Story Telling as to how it all came about and what the rules are. (and...what the penalties are for not playing by the rules)

 

 

The existence of a spirt is impossible to completely disprove only on the Merritt that it is itself a concept. We can think of like addition for example, the concept exists and we use it but addition, or mathematics in general, does not actually exist outside the brain of the practitioner.

 

I can agree that the idea of spirt does not necessarily originate from the Christian faith, although our western perception of it would most likely be based around a Christian model. However one may happen upon the epiphany of the existence of their spirt it would be reasonable to consider the following (Especially for one in a more modern civilisation);

 

In keeping in mind the ladder of scientific disciplines I presented earlier, one need only open their eyes and see the functional examples of science's discoveries about our universe or in other words the truths we've discovered. You know that you kitchen knife will cut through an apple, that when you turn the key of you car its starts, that when you drag your pen head along paper it leaves a mark. The fundamental laws governing all of these actions and effects are the same.

 

So when applying this to the study of human nature and existence one cannot say "Its true for cars (As matter in our world subject to physical law) but not for humans (Who are also constructions of matter)." For an example more relevant to our existence and functions then consider the effects of pot on somebody's brain; The effects are universal (In accordance with ones personal body chemistry of course), and the biological process which can be brought down to the level of sub-atomic processes are the same as when considering the effects of sugar in your gas tank. So how can one, who accepts the fact that Gas+Car=Vroom choose not to accept the same facts presented by the same laws which tell us our existence does not extend beyond the physical world? To do this you must argue faith. I am not a man of faith.

[skategreen]

The truth of whether or not man is in actual fact a spirit inhabiting a meat body is not founded on the Christian Fairy Tale Version of God.

 

 

Granted. There is no proof, and the Jury is still out on that one.

Is humankind above the animals, or merely a bunch of beasts with the gift of speech, in any number of dialects?

 

I didn't make myself clear enough here - Whether or not there is "proof of spirit", Man IS a spirit, but this concept is not founded on the Christian religion.

 

 

 

Man is a spirit??? Taking a human form? Is that what you meant? So when the body is spent, so too is the spirit?

 

Yes! No!

 

Man IS a spirit. We have here... spirit, mind, body. Three separate things. And to clarify further, man does not "have a soul". Man IS a soul. One "has" a foot, a car, an eyeball. But one is not a foot, car, eyeball. You can't "be" something you have.

 

Chop off legs, the person is still the same, simply less mobile. Paralyze him from the neck down (think Chris Reeves)... the being stays the same, he's just stuck with a f cked up body. He still loves peanut butter and laughs at fart jokes.

 

The spirit is the being himself. The basic personality, the awareness of being aware..that's you...that's the spirit. When you say, "me!" and you have the concept of self...that's the spirit.

 

The spirit uses a body. The body has a brain which regulates BODY, not spirit.

 

When the body dies, the body is dead. The spirit lives on. It is not of the physical universe.

 

..that's what I meant!

 

Then we have the war of Story Telling as to how it all came about and what the rules are. (and...what the penalties are for not playing by the rules)

 

 

Meaning the testament and the commandments? Right? Follow me and my laws, or be forever doomed to the pit of anxiety and fire?

 

I was actually referring to all the various religions and off-shoots etc. .there's the great and glorious wars of what is true and what isn't. We mustn't dance, we'll go to Hell, there is no Hell, God knows what you're thinking, God does't give a flying fuck, he threw us out there and we're on our own..And into this soup we throw in Darwin and The Big Bang, etc. All the various waring factions of how it all came about and what the rules are, including that oh so Mean Little Pisser concept, "Hell" and eternal damnation. Only a truly evil controlling bastard could come up with a concept like that!

 

And to tie the bow on this...

 

It's my opinion that instinct is often - simply knowingness. The spirit knowing rather than having to go through physical universe mechanics of thinking, rationalizing, charts and diagrams!

[manicmonday]

I've read this several times, and I still can't draw anything from it. I'm left saying what? Sometimes people make it too hard.

[eisanbt]

It's my opinion that instinct is often - simply knowingness. The spirit knowing rather than having to go through physical universe mechanics of thinking, rationalizing, charts and diagrams!

 

 

And when you're instincts prove incorrect? Where does that leave the place of the spirt? Does it make mistakes?

 

I really don't get your justificaiton for this outside of "Well its just the way it is, trust me I know." In which case I'd toss that up with the folks hammering about hell and the like.

[Lethalfind]

And when you're instincts prove incorrect? Where does that leave the place of the spirt? Does it make mistakes?

 

I really don't get your justificaiton for this outside of "Well its just the way it is, trust me I know." In which case I'd toss that up with the folks hammering about hell and the like.

 

I have to say that when I have a bad feeling about someone, I am usually not wrong. HOWEVER, these feelings I get aren't a prediction that someone is a serial killer, usually for some reason or another that the person will be more trouble then they are worth.

Too bad I don't get a feeling about the lottary...being RICH would be nice for a change.

[eisanbt]

There is nothing super-naturel about picking up on subtle cues about somebody, this is especially true for woman. I'm afraid I persoanlly don't know all the mechanics behind it, but its certainly not a soul. Ask Tori mayhap.

[manicmonday]

There is nothing super-naturel about picking up on subtle cues about somebody, this is especially true for woman. I'm afraid I persoanlly don't know all the mechanics behind it, but its certainly not a soul. Ask Tori mayhap.

 

 

It must be lonely not believing in anything.

[skategreen]

And when you're instincts prove incorrect? Where does that leave the place of the spirt? Does it make mistakes?

 

I really don't get your justificaiton for this outside of "Well its just the way it is, trust me I know." In which case I'd toss that up with the folks hammering about hell and the like.

 

 

Well....since I have made mistakes...(ooooooh...one or two here and there)...

 

and since I am a spirit....

 

Yeah...Spirits can make mistakes!

 

and....

 

If I could, with words alone...across an internet chat board...offer such a beyond indisputable proof that you, my dear, and all the other dears are an immortal incredible wonderful spirit - light and playful, seeking to survive and create... ... well... if I could do all that...

 

I'd have my own website at least.

 

[OmegaManiac]

I just used my intuition. Just now I intuitively skipped four pages of crap so I saved myself valuable minutes of wadeing through crap. I feel so much better now. Oh here's my take on intuition." First you should entertain rational thought then you should consider your gut feeling and finally you should cross reference the two and if they are not very much alike then you should continue with solution that is based on rational thought." All good serial killers know that!

[eisanbt]

It must be lonely not believing in anything.

 

Not at all, I believe in the rational world that exist around us. I am happy and have no regrets about following logic. As I stated earlier, I don't understand why this is such a scary concept to people. Why the hell would it be lonely?

 

Often the sentiments of misery surrounding somebody else's beliefs is a fine way of reassuring yourself of the validity of you own, wouldn't you agree?

[manicmonday]

Not at all, I believe in the rational world that exist around us. I am happy and have no regrets about following logic. As I stated earlier, I don't understand why this is such a scary concept to people. Why the hell would it be lonely?

 

Often the sentiments of misery surrounding somebody else's beliefs is a fine way of reassuring yourself of the validity of you own, wouldn't you agree?

 

I don't need validating my own beliefs. I don't need anyone else to believe the way I do. But I know how empty I felt without my current beliefs and thinking in that realm, yes it was lonely. If you don't think having any believes outside of your existance is lonely, great. I think you are in the minority of that though.

[eisanbt]

Unlike Descartes, I believe in others as well.

I'm not alone when I'm with everyone else.

 

Perhaps you were approaching it from a negative angle, which is to say you were feeling poorly yourself and it was reflected in your thought. This can happen to any, giving them a sad spin on something that could just as easily be good. Pessimists vs optimists eh. By changing your overall opinion you allow yourself a fresh start that can allow you to feel good without the negative sentiments of before; The old realm becomes one associated with generally bad feelings so, for happiness sake, its left behind.

 

This is not reasoning for belief, but reasoning for keeping a belief. I believe in reality because, as the name indicates, it is real. Bad feelings are nothing more then bad feelings, the same for the good one. This doesn't mean they hurt any less or feel any greater its just what they are. Recognition reality does not change perception, its not worth getting in any kind of a fuss over.

 

Surly you've been situations where you know how you preferably feel and can tell yourself that all you like, however it just doesn't happen. Life is still an experience, we being blessed with conciseness (or conversely, cursed). In either case, its our reality and how we deal with it is our own decision. When it ends it will end. There is however the potential for memory to live on, as is being studied by some off-beat scientists. If their work proves to be correct and you wish to name our collective memory our soul then feel free, just don't think it'll add anything magical to this potential fact of reality.

 

My appologies about the post having no sturcture to it , I'm quite hung-over right now.:o

[Kryptonite Man]

"dUJ tuVOHtaH." Klingon for "Always trust your instincts".

[Lethalfind]

I have had many times when I had a bad feeling about a person who I had no choice but to be around, either because we lived close or worked together, so I watched, making sure NOT too let them get close enough to do any damage should I be right. This is how I went from NOT trusting my instincts to validating them.

 

I tend to put people in a box based on my instincts, that way I keep myself from being harmed but I don't cut myself off from everyone.

For instance, I trust my neighbor implicitly, with my home, with my daughter anything really. We have known each other for 5 years, since I moved here. There are people who I have known longer, people with whom I have more history, more in common with etc. that I don't trust near as much as I do Marlena. When I first met her I had a good feeling about her, she extended a helping hand to me at a time when I needed it without becoming too intrusive, over time of watching her I saw I could trust her. My feeling was right.

 

I also used to have a friend at work, she was a wonderful girl but communication was not her strong suit. Her husband was a pot smoker to the point where he allowed his habit to threaten his ability to take care of his family. In the field in which he works, most places require drug testing, I watched as he left the majority of the work on his wife's shoulders because of this AND I watched as she allowed it too happen without saying a word to him. She was paying the bills, the primary bread winner, the primary caregiver for their child, he would not do a thing with the child, instead dropping the child off at his Mothers home, AND she went too school while doing all this, all the while being a doormat for her husband. My first instinct, when I first sat and talked with her when we were training was that while she was a nice person, she was a doormat and someone I could not fully trust because of this. In the end I was proven right. It was imposible to have a relationship with this person unless you wanted to live as a doormat to her husband like she evidently wanted to. Not my bag, thanks...