Surge? Who's surge? 250 dead possibly 500 as Iraqi religious murders continue

August 16, 2007

jose wrote:

> On Aug 15, 6:29 pm, "Verizon News Server" <s...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>> Your question has a false premise.

>>

>> Success was never possible in Iraq.

>> bush,jr attacked the wrong country.

>>

>> He should apologize, get our troops

>> out of Iraq and promptly resign

>> immediately after Cheney.

>>

>> President Pelosi should preside

>> over a unity government until

>> the next regular election.

>>

>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>

>> news:46c391f7$0$28893$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>

>>> Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? Are you going

>>> to answer me one of these days?

>>

>>> "Sid9" <s...@verizon.net> wrote in message

>>> news:FsLwi.12933$jy5.2647@trnddc07...

>>>> August 15, 2007

>>>> Death Toll in Iraq Blasts Rises to 250

>>>> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

>>>> Filed at 6:23 p.m. ET

>>

>>>> BAGHDAD (AP) -- Rescuers used bare hands and shovels Wednesday to

>>>> claw

>>>> through clay houses shattered by an onslaught of suicide bombings

>>>> that

>>>> killed at least 250 and possibly as many as 500 members of an

>>>> ancient religious sect in the deadliest attack of the Iraq war.

>>

>>>> The U.S. military blamed al-Qaida in Iraq, and an American

>>>> commander

>>>> called the assault an ''act of ethnic cleansing.''

>>

>>>> The victims of Tuesday night's coordinated attack by four suicide

>>>> bombers

>>>> were Yazidis, a small Kurdish-speaking sect that has been targeted

>>>> by

>>>> Muslim extremists who consider its members to be blasphemers.

>>

>>>> The blasts in two villages near the Syrian border crumbled

>>>> buildings,

>>>> trapping entire families beneath mud bricks and other wreckage.

>>>> Entire neighborhoods were flattened.

>>

>>>> ''This is an act of ethnic cleansing, if you will, almost

>>>> genocide,''

>>>> Army Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of U.S. forces in

>>>> northern Iraq,

>>>> told CNN. He said that was evident from the fact Yazidis live in a

>>>> remote

>>>> part of Ninevah province that has been far from Iraq's conflict.

>>

>>>> Mixon said last month that he proposed reducing American troop

>>>> levels in Ninevah and predicted the province would shift to Iraqi

>>>> government

>>>> control as early as this month. It was unclear whether that

>>>> projection

>>>> would hold after Tuesday's staggering casualties.

>>

>>>> Death estimates ranged widely.

>>

>>>> Zayan Othman, health minister for Iraq's nearby autonomous Kurdish

>>>> region, said 250 bodies had been pulled from the rubble and some

>>>> 350

>>>> people were injured.

>>

>>>> But the death toll was put as high as 500 by some local officials,

>>>> including Hashim al-Hamadani, a senior provincial security

>>>> official;

>>>> Kifah Mohammed, director of Sinjar hospital; and Iraqi army Capt.

>>>> Mohammed Ahmed. They agreed with Othman that about 350 were

>>>> wounded.

>>

>>>> None of the officials provided information on how they arrived at

>>>> their estimates. The figures could not be independently checked

>>>> because the

>>>> area was under curfew and casualties had been taken to numerous

>>>> hospitals.

>>

>>>> Even the lower death estimate far surpassed the previous bloodiest

>>>> attack

>>>> of the war -- 215 people killed by mortar fire and five car bombs

>>>> in

>>>> Baghdad's Shiite Muslim enclave of Sadr City last Nov. 23.

>>

>>>> U.S. officials believe insurgents have been regrouping across

>>>> northern

>>>> Iraq after being driven from strongholds in and around Baghdad,

>>>> and the bombings coincided with the start of a major offensive by

>>>> American and

>>>> Iraqi troops against militants in the Diyala River Valley.

>>

>>>> The carnage dealt a serious blow to the Bush administrations

>>>> hopes of presenting a positive picture in a progress report on

>>>> Iraq to be

>>>> delivered by the top U.S. commander, Gen. David Petraeus, and U.S.

>>>> Ambassador Ryan Crocker in about four weeks.

>>

>>>> Petraeus warned that he expected Sunni Arab insurgents to stage

>>>> more spectacular attacks ahead of the report to Congress, whose

>>>> members are

>>>> deeply divided over whether to begin withdrawing U.S. troops from

>>>> Iraq.

>>

>>>> ''This is way out by the Syrian border, an area where we do think

>>>> in fact

>>>> some suicide bombers are able to come across the border. It's an

>>>> area

>>>> that is very, very remote -- quite small villages out there -- and

>>>> it was disheartening for us, too, obviously,'' Petraeus told The

>>>> Associated

>>>> Press in an interview.

>>

>>>> ''We've always said al-Qaida would try to carry out sensational

>>>> attacks

>>>> this month in particular,'' he added. ''We've had some success

>>>> against

>>>> them in certain areas, but we've also said they do retain the

>>>> capability

>>>> to carry out these horrific and indiscriminate attacks such as the

>>>> ones yesterday. There will be more of that, tragically.''

>>

>>>> Minority sects such as the Yazidis are especially vulnerable as

>>>> militants

>>>> seek new targets to avoid the strict security measures clamped on

>>>> Baghdad

>>>> and surrounding areas to stop violence among warring Sunni and

>>>> Shiite factions.

>>

>>>> Some Muslims and Christians consider an angel figure worshipped by

>>>> Yazidis to be the devil, a charge the sect denies. The Islamic

>>>> State in

>>>> Iraq, an al-Qaida front group, distributed leaflets a week ago

>>>> warning residents near the scene of Tuesday's bombings that an

>>>> attack was

>>>> imminent because Yazidis are ''anti-Islamic.''

>>

>>>> The sect also gained unwanted attention when some members stoned an

>>>> 18-year-old Yazidi woman to death in April after she converted to

>>>> Islam

>>>> and fled her family with a Muslim boyfriend. Recent attacks on

>>>> Yazidis

>>>> have been blamed on al-Qaida-linked Sunni extremists seeking to

>>>> avenge

>>>> her death.

>>

>>>> The only Yazidi legislator in Iraq's 275-seat parliament called on

>>>> the government to do more to protect the country's small

>>>> communities.

>>

>>>> ''The ethnic and religious minorities do not have militias while

>>>> all the powerful parties have strong militias in Iraq,'' Amin

>>>> Farhan said. ''The government should protect these minorities by

>>>> giving them weapons so that

>>>> they can confront the terrorist groups.''

>>

>>>> Officials in northwestern Iraq called on people to donate blood and

>>>> pleaded for aid as many families were left homeless after their

>>>> houses collapsed in the bombings near Sinjar.

>>

>>>> ''The residents are appealing now to governmental and

>>>> non-governmental organizations to help them with medicines, food,

>>>> water and tents,''

>>>> Farhan said. ''About 50 houses have completely collapsed over their

>>>> families. Many of the victims have been badly dismembered.

>>>> Rescuers are

>>>> only finding pieces of dead bodies.''

>>

>>>> Dakhil Qassim, the Sinjar mayor, said the four truck bombers

>>>> approached

>>>> two areas in the town of Qahataniya, 75 miles west of Mosul, from

>>>> dirt

>>>> roads and all exploded within minutes of each other. He said the

>>>> casualty

>>>> toll was expected to rise.

>>

>>>> ''We are still digging with our hands and shovels because we can't

>>>> use

>>>> cranes because many of the houses were built of clay,'' Qassim

>>>> said.

>>

>>>> Hospitals across the region were overwhelmed and only emergency

>>>> vehicles

>>>> were exempt from a curfew that was in place across towns west of

>>>> Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad.

>>

>>>> Nurses dabbed the bloodied face of a young boy and held his hand

>>>> as he

>>>> wailed in pain. A toddler with bruised eyes had bandages wrapped

>>>> around

>>>> his head and arms.

>>

>>>> ''The car bombs that were used all had the consistent profile of

>>>> al-Qaida

>>>> in Iraq violence,'' a U.S. military spokesman, Brig. Gen. Kevin

>>>> Bergner,

>>>> told reporters in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone.

>>

>>>> Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki issued a statement blaming the

>>>> bombings on ''terrorism powers who seek to fuel sectarian strife

>>>> and

>>>> damage our people's national unity.''

>>

>>>> U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement strongly

>>>> condemning

>>>> the attack, saying ''nothing can justify such indiscriminate

>>>> violence

>>>> against innocent civilians.'' He urged Iraqi leaders to set aside

>>>> political and religious differences to work together to protect

>>>> civilians.

>>

>>>> Elsewhere in Iraq, at least 44 other people were killed or found

>>>> dead Wednesday, including 24 bullet-riddled bodies of apparent

>>>> victims of

>>>> sectarian death squads usually run by Shiite militias. Five

>>>> civilians

>>>> also died in separate car bombings in the northern cities of Mosul

>>>> and

>>>> Kirkuk and the southern city of Hillah.

>>

>>>> Northeast of Baghdad, Iraqi civilians joined police to rise up

>>>> against suspected al-Qaida-linked gunmen after a mortar attack in

>>>> Buhriz. Eight

>>>> gunmen and six civilians died in the fighting, police said.- Hide

>>>> quoted text -

>>

>> - Show quoted text -

>

> Your hatred of GW has drained all reason

> and sense from your peanut sized brain.

> Do you actually think that Pelosi would

> make a good president a woman who

> can't even run the House?

>

> Congress, thank the Almighty God, is

> in recess. The country is safe for the

> month of August.

Nancy Pelosi has more brains in her little finger

than bush,jr has in entire body.

bush,jr's appointees have

been a a Hall of fame of failure.

August 16, 2007

On Aug 16, 4:17 pm, "Sid9" <s...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Jerry Okamura wrote:

> > "Sid9" <s...@verizon.net> wrote in message

> >news:sN%wi.4645$jU4.315@trnddc02...

> >> Jerry Okamura wrote:

> >>> "Rich Travsky" <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote in message

> >>>news:46C3D47C.17097B7E@hotmMOVEail.com...

> >>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>

> >>>>> Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? Are you

> >>>>> going to answer me one of these days?

>

> >>>> Define success. Are you going to answer me one of these days?

>

> >>> You either have not been reading my messages, or you have chosen to

> >>> ignore my responses. I have defined success a lot of times on these

> >>> newsgroups. Besides, you don't need my definition of success. Use

> >>> your own definition of success, then answer the question.

>

> >> There is no "success" in an

> >> ill conceived enterprise that

> >> was doomed from the it's

> >> flawed concept

>

> > If you cannot achieve success, and if success is not important then we

> > should not be there in the first place, and we should get the helll

> > out of Dodge IMMEDIATELY. If success is not important, then it does

> > not matte what Patreus has to say about progess, because success is

> > not imporant or we cannot achieve success in any event, so why should

> > the democrats wait until they hear from Patreus? Why aren't they

> > taking aciton to get us our of Dodge IMMEDIATELY? Why do they keep

> > throwing money at a problem that cannot be successful? Why didn't

> > they cut off all funding for the effort in Iraq? Perhaps becuase they

> > do not share your belief that success is not important, or because

> > they do not share your belief that success in not possible?

>

> Ask the "Uniter Decider Commander in Chief"

>

> This is his party....no effort on your part will

> shift responsibility away from bush,jr.

>

> The Republican line seems to be to try to

> shift responsibility away from the creator.

>

> The creator of this mess and his Republican

> cohorts- Hide quoted text -

>

> - Show quoted text -

read the HISTORY of Iraq from 3300B.C. there have been MANY CONQUERORS

of Iraq---ALL who had NO LONG-TERM SUCCESS in that region---

Sumerians,Akkadians,Kassites,Elamites,Babylonians,Amorites,Hittites,Minnati,Hurrians,Aramerians,Assyrians,Scythians,Chaldians,Medes,Persians,Macedonians(Under

Alexander the great),Seluciucids,Romans,Parthians,Sassinid

Persians,Arabs(under the banner of Islam),Sejuk turks,Mongols,Ottoman

Turks,french,British(Lawrence of Arabia),Short-lived nativist

monarchys,Saddam Hussien,United States-------Get the

Picture??? !!!!!!!!! History has PROVEN to Me beyond a shadow of a

doubt that we will be just ANOTHER INEFFECTIVE CONQUEROR making NO

LONG-TERM DIFFERENCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

August 17, 2007

Jerry Okamura wrote:

> "Sid9" <sid9@verizon.net> wrote in message

> news:cd4xi.8287$xc5.139@trnddc06...

>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>> "Sid9" <sid9@verizon.net> wrote in message

>>> news:nh2xi.10226$Ns6.8606@trnddc01...

>>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>>> "Sid9" <sid9@verizon.net> wrote in message

>>>>> news:sN%wi.4645$jU4.315@trnddc02...

>>>>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>>>>> "Rich Travsky" <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:46C3D47C.17097B7E@hotmMOVEail.com...

>>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? Are you

>>>>>>>>> going to answer me one of these days?

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Define success. Are you going to answer me one of these days?

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> You either have not been reading my messages, or you have chosen

>>>>>>> to ignore my responses. I have defined success a lot of times

>>>>>>> on these newsgroups. Besides, you don't need my definition of

>>>>>>> success. Use your own definition of success, then answer the

>>>>>>> question.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> There is no "success" in an

>>>>>> ill conceived enterprise that

>>>>>> was doomed from the it's

>>>>>> flawed concept

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> If you cannot achieve success, and if success is not important

>>>>> then we should not be there in the first place, and we should get

>>>>> the helll out of Dodge IMMEDIATELY. If success is not important,

>>>>> then it does not matte what Patreus has to say about progess,

>>>>> because success is not imporant or we cannot achieve success in

>>>>> any event, so why should the democrats wait until they hear from

>>>>> Patreus? Why aren't they taking aciton to get us our of Dodge

>>>>> IMMEDIATELY? Why do they keep throwing money at a problem that

>>>>> cannot be successful? Why didn't they cut off all funding for the

>>>>> effort in Iraq? Perhaps becuase they do not share your belief

>>>>> that success is not important, or because they do not share your

>>>>> belief that success in not possible?

>>>>

>>>> Ask the "Uniter Decider Commander in Chief"

>>>

>>> I am asking you? Are you going to answer the quesiton?

>>>>

>>>> This is his party....no effort on your part will

>>>> shift responsibility away from bush,jr.

>>

>> Your question is based on a false

>> premise and is not worthy of an answer

>>

>> Ask the "Uniter Decider Commander in Chief"

>> .

> A cop out....what I would expect from somone who wants us to cut and

> run from a fight. My response is, if you do not want a fight on your

> hands, don't make comments that illicit a response. And don't start

> a fight, that you are not willing to finish.....

Address your question the

one that made this mess.

bush,jr has America stuck

in a mess from which

there is NO GOOD SOLUTION.

If you have a solution email the White House.

My solution is Murtha's solution

and the solution, that rumor has

it, Petraeus will propose....

....if he's not silenced by bush,jr.

None of our generals have

had the balls to speak out.

Time will tell if Petraeus

is a general or simply just

another bush,jr lackey

August 17, 2007

Jerry Okamura wrote:

> <rayadaps54@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:1187308429.702014.63570@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>> On Aug 16, 4:17 pm, "Sid9" <s...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>> "Sid9" <s...@verizon.net> wrote in message

>>>> news:sN%wi.4645$jU4.315@trnddc02...

>>>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>>>> "Rich Travsky" <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:46C3D47C.17097B7E@hotmMOVEail.com...

>>>>>>> Jerry Okamura wrote:

>>>

>>>>>>>> Is success in Iraq important or is it not important? Are you

>>>>>>>> going to answer me one of these days?

>>>

>>>>>>> Define success. Are you going to answer me one of these days?

>>>

>>>>>> You either have not been reading my messages, or you have chosen

>>>>>> to ignore my responses. I have defined success a lot of times

>>>>>> on these newsgroups. Besides, you don't need my definition of

>>>>>> success. Use your own definition of success, then answer the

>>>>>> question.

>>>

>>>>> There is no "success" in an

>>>>> ill conceived enterprise that

>>>>> was doomed from the it's

>>>>> flawed concept

>>>

>>>> If you cannot achieve success, and if success is not important

>>>> then we should not be there in the first place, and we should get

>>>> the helll out of Dodge IMMEDIATELY. If success is not important,

>>>> then it does not matte what Patreus has to say about progess,

>>>> because success is not imporant or we cannot achieve success in

>>>> any event, so why should the democrats wait until they hear from

>>>> Patreus? Why aren't they taking aciton to get us our of Dodge

>>>> IMMEDIATELY? Why do they keep throwing money at a problem that

>>>> cannot be successful? Why didn't they cut off all funding for the

>>>> effort in Iraq? Perhaps becuase they do not share your belief that

>>>> success is not important, or because they do not share your belief

>>>> that success in not possible?

>>>

>>> Ask the "Uniter Decider Commander in Chief"

>>>

>>> This is his party....no effort on your part will

>>> shift responsibility away from bush,jr.

>>>

>>> The Republican line seems to be to try to

>>> shift responsibility away from the creator.

>>>

>>> The creator of this mess and his Republican

>>> cohorts- Hide quoted text -

>>>

>>> - Show quoted text -

>>

>> read the HISTORY of Iraq from 3300B.C. there have been MANY

>> CONQUERORS of Iraq---ALL who had NO LONG-TERM SUCCESS in that

>> region---

>> Sumerians,Akkadians,Kassites,Elamites,Babylonians,Amorites,Hittites,Minnati,Hurrians,Aramerians,Assyrians,Scythians,Chaldians,Medes,Persians,Macedonians(Under

>> Alexander the great),Seluciucids,Romans,Parthians,Sassinid

>> Persians,Arabs(under the banner of Islam),Sejuk

>> turks,Mongols,Ottoman Turks,french,British(Lawrence of

>> Arabia),Short-lived nativist monarchys,Saddam Hussien,United

>> States-------Get the Picture??? !!!!!!!!! History has PROVEN to Me

>> beyond a shadow of a

>> doubt that we will be just ANOTHER INEFFECTIVE CONQUEROR making NO

>> LONG-TERM DIFFERENCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>

>

> That does not mean that it will happen again. It only means that it

> "might" not be possible. But one thing I can guarantee, success is

> not possible, if you give up.......

Give up what?

A lose-lose situation

that bush,jr has America in?

bush,jr has America stuck

in a mess from which

there is NO GOOD SOLUTION.

If you have a solution email the White House.

My solution is Murtha's solution

and the solution, that rumor has

it, Petraeus will propose....

....if he's not silenced by bush,jr.

None of our generals have

had the balls to speak out.

Time will tell if Petraeus

is a general or simply just

another bush,jr lackey

August 17, 2007

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:41:52 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>

><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message

>news:s2h9c3h37obkroj2kpri1hg9d7c5qrgkgl@4ax.com...

>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:38:45 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

>> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message

>>>news:f3r8c35j2esfp2h8g5hgois0ggc0dfa56a@4ax.com...

>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:13:47 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

>>>> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>news:13c7pnhnp2imkd9@corp.supernews.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:46c3aa88$0$18976$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Then if success is not possible, then we should withdraw from Iraq

>>>>>>> IMMEDIATELY.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Why?

>>>>>>

>>>>>You need me to explain why? Beccause if success is not possible, then

>>>>>we

>>>>>are putting our military men and women in harms way, some of them dying

>>>>>everyday, trying to achieve something, that cannot be achieved.

>>>>

>>>> I guess we need to make it simple. Success is not possible. The

>>>> invasion of Iraq was stupid, unnecessary, ill-planned, and poorly

>>>> executed. The US destabilized a country and had little if any plans

>>>> for the consequences of what anyone with half a brain and a knowledge

>>>> of the region knew would occur - sectarian strife. So the US has

>>>> succeeded in starting an internal war and putting the US military

>>>> right smack-dab in the middle. The stabilization of Iraq is a

>>>> political battle - not military. If the soldiers leave then all hell

>>>> breaks loose. If the soldiers stay, they continue to die for political

>>>> (not military) reasons. Success is next to impossible so the soldiers

>>>> should come home. That leaves the US in the untenable position of

>>>> taking down a regime (no matter how evil and corrupt) and leaving

>>>> nothing in return. It's our fault that Iraq is in the position we see

>>>> today.

>>

>>>So, you agree that we should pull out of Iraq IMMEDIATELY? Is that what

>>>the

>>>democrats are forcing the President to do?

>>

>> Tomorrow - no. By the end of the year - yup. And let Bush live with it

>> for the rest of his life. Not only letting American soldiers die for

>> his greater glory but upsetting the precarious balance in the area.

>> Seems Cheney was right about a decade ago - can you say quagmire?

>

>So, because you want Bush to live with it a little longer, you are willing

>to have more of our men and women die, just to make a point? Pretty sick

>mind you have....

You really that ignorant or do you work at it? The end of the year

would be the quickest that US forces could leave with a minute chance

of a stable Iraq. Bush's paying with his conscience is another point.

>> WB Yeats

>>

>> I'd redeploy about 30,000 of the exiting troops to Afghanistan and

>> become a presence along the n/east border with Pakistan.

>Still did not answer the bassic quesiton I asked....

Which question is that? Is success important? The war's won militarily

so let's go home. Success is relative. Your question reeks of "do you

still beat your wife?"

WB Yeats

August 17, 2007

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:46:26 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

<okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>>>> You need me to explain why? Beccause if success is not possible,

>>>>>> then we are putting our military men and women in harms way, some of

>>>>>> them dying everyday, trying to achieve something, that cannot be

>>>>>> achieved.

>>>>>

>>>>> I guess we need to make it simple. Success is not possible. The

>>>>> invasion of Iraq was stupid, unnecessary, ill-planned, and poorly

>>>>> executed. The US destabilized a country and had little if any plans

>>>>> for the consequences of what anyone with half a brain and a knowledge

>>>>> of the region knew would occur - sectarian strife. So the US has

>>>>> succeeded in starting an internal war and putting the US military

>>>>> right smack-dab in the middle. The stabilization of Iraq is a

>>>>> political battle - not military. If the soldiers leave then all hell

>>>>> breaks loose. If the soldiers stay, they continue to die for political

>>>>> (not military) reasons. Success is next to impossible so the soldiers

>>>>> should come home. That leaves the US in the untenable position of

>>>>> taking down a regime (no matter how evil and corrupt) and leaving

>>>>> nothing in return. It's our fault that Iraq is in the position we see

>>>>> today.

>>>>>

>>>>> WB Yeats

>>>>

>>>> Well said.

>>>>

>>>> Looking out for American interests, we need to get out now.

>>>>

>>>> bush,jr wrecked America's reputation

>>>>

>>>> Out now, we can start to rebuild

>>>> our military and, with a new

>>>> administration, rebuild our place in the world.

>>>

>>>Why do we "have to rebuild" our military? What is the purpose of having a

>>>military? The purpose of having a military is (1) to defend our country

>>>it

>>>attacked, (2) to protect our access to vital resources, and (3) to use the

>>>military for humanitarian reasons. We do not have to have such a large

>>>military to defend this country. We do need a large military to protect

>>>our

>>>access to vital resouces. We "could" use our super power status to do

>>>some

>>>good.

>>

>> We have to rebuild our military for all the reasons you list above

>

>One, you do not need to be a super power to defend this country from attack.

>Second, you agreed that we needed to protect our access to vital resources,

>but you are not willing to protect our access to the oil in Iraq (please try

>to be consistent). You think we should use our military for humanitarian

>reasons, yet when we do that, you do not want us to insure that the goal is

>achieved (again a matter of consistency). So, which is it?

Enjoying your mental masturbation, are you? We had access to Iraq's

oil thru the markets. The US destroyed the country and made it

impossible to presently pump this oil. And now you feel we should

protect the access which we destroyed. Johnathan Swift would be proud

as would George Orwell. I am consistent. You're seeking to take a

particular and draw a universal from it. Shame, shame. That's

fallacious logic.

>>>But, Iraq does have a vital resource called oil....and we do not seem

>>>wiling to protect our access to that vital resource, then the logical

>>>question is, what vital resource are we willing to protect? And if we are

>>>not willing to use our super power status, while we are in the catbirds

>>>seat

>>>to try to make the people of the world live a better life, what does that

>>>say about our moral values? Besides, we don't seem to have the stomach

>>>for

>>>a fight, so what good is having a military when you do not have the

>>>stomach

>>>for the fight, that will happen when you use our military?

>>

>> Your argument just fell apart. We had access to Iraqi oil prior to

>> Bush's folly. Most of that access is now gone. We are not giving the

>> people of the world a better life - we gave Iraq instability and

>> thousands dead. We gave them rubble in place of water and electricity.

>> We gave them promises of democracy which doesn't work without security

>> and full bellies. That says a lot about some folks' moral values - or

>> lack thereof. We have the stomach for a fight - just not a false one

>> for the greater glory of Wee Georgie.

>

>The oil did not disappear, it is still there. It will either be controlled

>by someone who has a good and friendly relationship with the interest of the

>west, or it will be controlled by someone who does not have a good and

>friendly relationship with the interest of the west.... You cannot have it

>both ways....which would you prefer......

That it be controlled by Iraq and the Iraqis. Protection does not mean

theft. Or maybe it does in the Bizarro World in which you seem to

reside.

WB Yeats

August 17, 2007

Sid9 wrote:

> August 15, 2007

> Death Toll in Iraq Blasts Rises to 250

> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

> Filed at 6:23 p.m. ET

>

> BAGHDAD (AP) -- Rescuers used bare hands and shovels Wednesday to claw

> through clay houses shattered by an onslaught of suicide bombings that

> killed at least 250 and possibly as many as 500 members of an ancient

> religious sect in the deadliest attack of the Iraq war.

>

> The U.S. military blamed al-Qaida in Iraq, and an American commander called

> the assault an ''act of ethnic cleansing.''

>

> The victims of Tuesday night's coordinated attack by four suicide bombers

> were Yazidis, a small Kurdish-speaking sect that has been targeted by Muslim

> extremists who consider its members to be blasphemers.

>

> The blasts in two villages near the Syrian border crumbled buildings,

> trapping entire families beneath mud bricks and other wreckage. Entire

> neighborhoods were flattened.

>

> ''This is an act of ethnic cleansing, if you will, almost genocide,'' Army

> Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of U.S. forces in northern Iraq, told

> CNN. He said that was evident from the fact Yazidis live in a remote part of

> Ninevah province that has been far from Iraq's conflict.

>

> Mixon said last month that he proposed reducing American troop levels in

> Ninevah and predicted the province would shift to Iraqi government control

> as early as this month. It was unclear whether that projection would hold

> after Tuesday's staggering casualties.

>

> Death estimates ranged widely.

>

> Zayan Othman, health minister for Iraq's nearby autonomous Kurdish region,

> said 250 bodies had been pulled from the rubble and some 350 people were

> injured.

>

> But the death toll was put as high as 500 by some local officials, including

> Hashim al-Hamadani, a senior provincial security official; Kifah Mohammed,

> director of Sinjar hospital; and Iraqi army Capt. Mohammed Ahmed. They

> agreed with Othman that about 350 were wounded.

>

> None of the officials provided information on how they arrived at their

> estimates. The figures could not be independently checked because the area

> was under curfew and casualties had been taken to numerous hospitals.

>

> Even the lower death estimate far surpassed the previous bloodiest attack of

> the war -- 215 people killed by mortar fire and five car bombs in Baghdad's

> Shiite Muslim enclave of Sadr City last Nov. 23.

>

> U.S. officials believe insurgents have been regrouping across northern Iraq

> after being driven from strongholds in and around Baghdad, and the bombings

> coincided with the start of a major offensive by American and Iraqi troops

> against militants in the Diyala River Valley.

>

> The carnage dealt a serious blow to the Bush administrations hopes of

> presenting a positive picture in a progress report on Iraq to be delivered

> by the top U.S. commander, Gen. David Petraeus, and U.S. Ambassador Ryan

> Crocker in about four weeks.

>

> Petraeus warned that he expected Sunni Arab insurgents to stage more

> spectacular attacks ahead of the report to Congress, whose members are

> deeply divided over whether to begin withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq.

>

> ''This is way out by the Syrian border, an area where we do think in fact

> some suicide bombers are able to come across the border. It's an area that

> is very, very remote -- quite small villages out there -- and it was

> disheartening for us, too, obviously,'' Petraeus told The Associated Press

> in an interview.

>

> ''We've always said al-Qaida would try to carry out sensational attacks this

> month in particular,'' he added. ''We've had some success against them in

> certain areas, but we've also said they do retain the capability to carry

> out these horrific and indiscriminate attacks such as the ones yesterday.

> There will be more of that, tragically.''

>

> Minority sects such as the Yazidis are especially vulnerable as militants

> seek new targets to avoid the strict security measures clamped on Baghdad

> and surrounding areas to stop violence among warring Sunni and Shiite

> factions.

>

> Some Muslims and Christians consider an angel figure worshipped by Yazidis

> to be the devil, a charge the sect denies. The Islamic State in Iraq, an

> al-Qaida front group, distributed leaflets a week ago warning residents near

> the scene of Tuesday's bombings that an attack was imminent because Yazidis

> are ''anti-Islamic.''

>

> The sect also gained unwanted attention when some members stoned an

> 18-year-old Yazidi woman to death in April after she converted to Islam and

> fled her family with a Muslim boyfriend. Recent attacks on Yazidis have been

> blamed on al-Qaida-linked Sunni extremists seeking to avenge her death.

>

> The only Yazidi legislator in Iraq's 275-seat parliament called on the

> government to do more to protect the country's small communities.

>

> ''The ethnic and religious minorities do not have militias while all the

> powerful parties have strong militias in Iraq,'' Amin Farhan said. ''The

> government should protect these minorities by giving them weapons so that

> they can confront the terrorist groups.''

>

> Officials in northwestern Iraq called on people to donate blood and pleaded

> for aid as many families were left homeless after their houses collapsed in

> the bombings near Sinjar.

>

> ''The residents are appealing now to governmental and non-governmental

> organizations to help them with medicines, food, water and tents,'' Farhan

> said. ''About 50 houses have completely collapsed over their families. Many

> of the victims have been badly dismembered. Rescuers are only finding pieces

> of dead bodies.''

>

> Dakhil Qassim, the Sinjar mayor, said the four truck bombers approached two

> areas in the town of Qahataniya, 75 miles west of Mosul, from dirt roads and

> all exploded within minutes of each other. He said the casualty toll was

> expected to rise.

>

> ''We are still digging with our hands and shovels because we can't use

> cranes because many of the houses were built of clay,'' Qassim said.

>

> Hospitals across the region were overwhelmed and only emergency vehicles

> were exempt from a curfew that was in place across towns west of Mosul, 225

> miles northwest of Baghdad.

>

> Nurses dabbed the bloodied face of a young boy and held his hand as he

> wailed in pain. A toddler with bruised eyes had bandages wrapped around his

> head and arms.

>

> ''The car bombs that were used all had the consistent profile of al-Qaida in

> Iraq violence,'' a U.S. military spokesman, Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner, told

> reporters in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone.

>

> Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki issued a statement blaming the bombings

> on ''terrorism powers who seek to fuel sectarian strife and damage our

> people's national unity.''

>

> U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement strongly condemning

> the attack, saying ''nothing can justify such indiscriminate violence

> against innocent civilians.'' He urged Iraqi leaders to set aside political

> and religious differences to work together to protect civilians.

>

> Elsewhere in Iraq, at least 44 other people were killed or found dead

> Wednesday, including 24 bullet-riddled bodies of apparent victims of

> sectarian death squads usually run by Shiite militias. Five civilians also

> died in separate car bombings in the northern cities of Mosul and Kirkuk and

> the southern city of Hillah.

>

> Northeast of Baghdad, Iraqi civilians joined police to rise up against

> suspected al-Qaida-linked gunmen after a mortar attack in Buhriz. Eight

> gunmen and six civilians died in the fighting, police said.

>

August 16, 2007 -- TWO days ago, al Qaeda det onated four massive truck

bombs in three Iraqi vil lages, killing at least 250 civilians (perhaps

as many as 500) and wounding many more. The bombings were a sign of al

Qaeda's frustration, desperation and fear.

The victims were ethnic Kurd Yazidis, members of a minor sect with

pre-Islamic roots. Muslim extremists condemn them (wrongly) as devil

worshippers. The Yazidis live on the fringes of society.

That's one of the two reasons al Qaeda targeted those settlements: The

terrorist leaders realize now that the carnage they wrought on fellow

Muslims backfired, turning once-sympathetic Sunni Arabs against them.

The fanatics calculated that Iraqis wouldn't care much about the Yazidis.

As far as the Thieves of Baghdad (also known as Iraq's government) go,

the terrorists were right. Iraqi minorities, including Christians, have

been classified as fair game by Muslim butchers. Mainstream Iraqis

simply look away.

But the second reason for those dramatic bombings was that al Qaeda

needs to portray Iraq as a continuing failure of U.S. policy. Those dead

and maimed Yazidis were just props: The intended audience was Congress.

Al Qaeda has been badly battered. It's lost top leaders and thousands of

cadres. Even more painful for the Islamists, they've lost ground among

the people of Iraq, including former allies. Iraqis got a good taste of

al Qaeda. Now they're spitting it out.

The foreign terrorists slaughtering the innocent recognize that their

only remaining hope of pulling off a come-from-way-behind win is to

convince your senator and your congressman or -woman that it's

politically expedient to hand a default victory to a defeated al Qaeda.

Expect more attempts to generate massive bloodshed in Iraq in the

coming weeks. The terrorists are well aware of the

exaggerated-by-all-parties importance of Gen. David Petraeus' Sept. 15

progress report to Congress. They'll do all they can to embarrass the

general and provide ammunition to the surrender caucus.

Meanwhile, our military progress has become undeniable. Even Democratic

presidential aspirants have started hedging their peace-at-any-price

positions. To the horror of al Qaeda and left-wing bloggers alike,

cutting and running is starting to look unfashionable.

How has Petraeus changed the outlook so swiftly? Numerous factors are in

play, but two of his personal characteristics have helped keep him from

making a single wrong move thus far.

First, Petraeus is relentless. The result is that, for the first time,

our military approach has become relentless, too.

In the past, we followed up military wins by stepping back and hoping

that the reduction of Fallujah or the latest shoot-'em-up with Muqtada

al-Sadr's thugs would prove decisive. We were wrong every time - all our

forbearance achieved was to give our enemies time to recover.

Petraeus changed the rules, and God bless him for it. He may have a

high-school-prom smile for the media, but the general's a clinch fighter

who ignores the bell - and who isn't above landing a blow when the ref

ain't looking. It's exactly the approach we've needed.

The second quality is his leadership style. Micro-managers lose

control in war. While Petraeus is interested in every detail and spends

plenty of time on the ground with tactical commanders, he assigns

missions, gives the essential guidance - then trusts subordinates to do

their jobs.

Previous U.S. commanders worried about the wrong things, and they

worried all the time. Petraeus is concerned about the one thing that

matters: Winning.

He's that rarer-than-a-unicorn beast, a full general capable of

learning. Petraeus hasn't "defended his dissertation" in the face of

contrary facts. The politically correct counterinsurgency manual he

produced before taking up this assignment delighted the left-of-center

think-tank crowd - but they must be very disappointed today. Once in

command in Iraq, Petraeus kept the doctrinal bits that worked, but

dumped the baloney.

He's doing what it really takes: Fighting. Our troops are killing those

who need killing; tens of thousands of terrorists, insurgents and

militiamen are in lockup, with more coming in every day. And any member

of the NYPD can tell you that taking murderers off the streets works.

Petraeus is also pursuing political progress, but that effort's still

lagging. Not his fault: The most that our military can do is to help

establish the conditions for Iraq's leaders to succeed. But the old

rivalries, bitter hatreds and personal pettiness of Baghdad's

politicians have been more discouraging than the terror attacks.

That said, we're not really in Iraq for Iraq's sake now, but for our

own. The long-mismanaged situation has morphed from a grand attempt to

create a model democracy in the Middle East to become a fight for our

strategic security - knocking al Qaeda down, keeping Iran out (see

sidebar) and shaping a new Iraq that's at least benign where our

interests are concerned.

Here's how Gen. Petraeus summed it up for The Post on Tuesday: "Right

now, we're on the offensive, striving to build on the gains made in the

past two months by conducting strike operations to retain the initiative

against al-Qaeda-in-Iraq, to address the challenge of the

Iranian-supported Shia extremists and to try to reduce further the level

of ethno-sectarian violence in Baghdad and other fault line areas."

Al Qaeda down, Iran out and sectarian violence reduced. Sounds like a plan.

August 17, 2007

<wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message

news:47u9c39k4b52vcmhut1u9jr5lt9nl52550@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:41:52 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>

>>

>><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message

>>news:s2h9c3h37obkroj2kpri1hg9d7c5qrgkgl@4ax.com...

>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:38:45 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

>>> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>><wbyeats@ireland.com> wrote in message

>>>>news:f3r8c35j2esfp2h8g5hgois0ggc0dfa56a@4ax.com...

>>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:13:47 -0700, "Jerry Okamura"

>>>>> <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>"Bokonon" <seattledemocracy@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>news:13c7pnhnp2imkd9@corp.supernews.com...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message

>>>>>>> news:46c3aa88$0$18976$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Then if success is not possible, then we should withdraw from Iraq

>>>>>>>> IMMEDIATELY.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Why?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>You need me to explain why? Beccause if success is not possible, then

>>>>>>we

>>>>>>are putting our military men and women in harms way, some of them

>>>>>>dying

>>>>>>everyday, trying to achieve something, that cannot be achieved.