Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:u2itl3t7p8mp2lbg3uuuq62p3cgot0rel0@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:51:42 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>It isnt a point about claiming victory for me! It is about exposing

>>unsupported claims! for example I continually ask where is the evidence

>>for

>>WMD

>

[snip]

>

> The idea that every inch of Iraq has been examined and pronounced

> clean is ludicrous.

[snip - so is the idea that that is what others are claiming. Shiftinfg the

burden onto them to prove "NO WMD" and insisting they prove an negative are

logical fallacies]

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:0chtl3hf72cch5okoku1irouct0ku45vap@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:51:42 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>

>>"messenger" <list@adrian.of> wrote in message

>>news:268rl3dc375rlhao1rea74rkil2n7b2ls5@4ax.com...

>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:54:03 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>But it wont stop bigots from saying "saddam

>>>>supported Islamic international terrorism" based on the single event

>>>

>>> There weas no "single event" you lying moron:

>>>

>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm

>>>

>>> Palestinians get Saddam funds

>>>

>>> Iraq regularly parades volunteers to "liberate Palestine"

>>> Saddam Hussein has paid out thousands of dollars to families of

>>> Palestinians killed in fighting with Israel.

>>> Relatives of at least one suicide attacker as well as other militants

>>> and civilians gathered in a hall in Gaza City to receive cheques.

>>

>>this is the event to which I refer!

>>

>>Have you examples of MORE of them?

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

This was not in a region of Iraq which Saddam controlled. It even mentions

it as an "autonomous Kurdish region" in you reference below! It even

mentions that Kurdish officials mention it! Saddam did not control Norther n

Iraq. It has been a no fly zone for Iraq since 1992! The Kurds have most

influence there and they tolerated (but also did not support) Islamists

there.

> Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

> the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

> harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

> controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

Yes this is true - ALONG THE NON SADDAM controlled Northern border!

>

> Most of them fled Afghanistan after the US-led offensive, but

> officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which controls

> part of north-east Iraq, claim an "abnormal" number of recruits are

> making their way to the area from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. "They are

> being trained for terrorist operations within the Kurdish region and

> beyond, possibly Europe," one said.

But NOT by or with the support of Sadam!

>

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

>

> TERROR TO GO

> Zarqawi's own movements are themselves telling. After being wounded in

> the leg in Afghanistan, Zarqawi escaped to Iran. While there, he

> dispatched two Palestinians and a Jordanian who entered Turkey

> illegally from Iran on their way to conduct bombing attacks in Israel.

> The three, members of Beyyiat el-Imam (a group linked to al Qaeda) who

> fought for the Taliban and received terrorist training in Afghanistan,

> were intercepted and arrested by Turkish police on February 15, 2002.

>

> From Iran Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002, where his wounded leg

> was amputated and the limb fitted with a prosthetic device.

this is another hoax story. I have also dealt with this in this thread.

On January 26, 2003, Newsweek reports that in 2002, Islamist militant leader

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi "supposedly went to Baghdad, where doctors amputated

his leg (injured in Afghan fighting) and replaced it with a prosthesis."

Newsweek also claims that al-Zarqawi "is supposed to be one of al-Qaeda's

top experts on chemical and biological weapons" and that he also met with

"Hezbollah militants" and "Iranian secret agents." This new account builds

on previous reports claiming that al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad for some

unspecified medical treatment (see October 2, 2002). The article does note,

"Not surprisingly, reports putting al-Zarqawi in Iraq piqued the interest of

Pentagon hard-liners eager to find evidence to support their suspicion that

Saddam [Hussein] and bin Laden are allied and may have plotted 9/11

together. But neither the CIA nor Britain's legendary MI6 put much stock in

al-Zarqawi's alleged Iraqi visits, stressing such reports are 'unconfirmed.'"

[Newsweek, 1/26/2003] Despite these caveats, it soon will be widely reported

that al-Zarqawi had a leg amputated in Baghdad, with at least the tacit

knowledge of the Iraqi government. For instance, several days later, USA

Today reports, "To those who operate with and against the shadowy

al-Zarqawi, including the Kurds of northern Iraq, he is called 'the man with

the limp.' That is a reference to a poorly fitting artificial limb that

replaced a leg amputated in Baghdad last August." [uSA Today, 2/5/2003] And

Secretary of State Colin Powell will claim in his February 5, 2003

presentation to the United Nations that al-Zarqawi went to Baghdad in May

2002 for medical treatment and stayed two months (see February 5, 2003). But

in October 2004, Knight Ridder will report, based on a new CIA report

"Al-Zarqawi originally was reported to have had a leg amputated, a claim

that officials now acknowledge was incorrect." [Knight Ridder, 10/4/2004] In

early 2006, al-Zarqawi will be seen walking in a videotape, clearly in

possession of both his legs. And when he is killed later that year, x-rays

of his dead body will show a fracture of his right lower leg, but apparently

that was caused by the blast that killed him. [Atlantic Monthly, 6/8/2006;

Associated Press, 6/13/2006]

2001: Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian Muslim militant later alleged by

the Bush administration to have ties to Osama bin Laden, is allegedly

arrested in Jordan sometime in 2001 for his involvement in a late 1999 plot

to blow up the Radisson SAS Hotel in Amman, Jordan (see November 30, 1999).

This is according to an unnamed Bush administration official. Supposedly,

some time after his arrest, he is released. [Guardian, 10/9/2002; Washington

Post, 2/7/2003 Sources: Unnamed Bush administration official] However, there

are no contemporary press accounts of this arrest and release, and no signs

of a trial. According to other accounts, at some point he is convicted for

his role in the plot and sentenced to death by a Jordanian court in

absentia. [independent, 2/6/2003]

December 2001-Mid-2002: Al-Zarqawi Moves Operations to Northern Iraq but Has

No Ties to Hussein's Government

Jordanian Islamist militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi flees Afghanistan and

heads to Iran where he continues to run his militant group, al-Tawhid. He

uses telephones and a network of couriers to maintain contact with

operatives in Europe. By April 2002, he still is based in Iran and has

little to no ties to Iraq. But some time in mid-2002, he unites with Ansar

al-Islam, an Islamist group based in a part of northern Iraq controlled by

Kurdish rebels and opposed to Saddam Hussein. (He reportedly moves his base

of operations there and establishes an explosive training center camp there

as well. [independent, 2/6/2003; Newsweek, 6/25/2003] In an effort to

justify military action against Iraq, the Bush administration will later

claim that Saddam Hussein is aware of al-Zarqawi's presence in Baghdad and

therefore is guilty of knowingly harboring a terrorist (see September 26,

2002). The administration will also allege-falsely-that al-Zarqawi is a

senior al-Qaeda agent and that his visit is evidence that Saddam's regime

has ties to Osama bin Laden. [Guardian, 10/9/2002; Independent, 2/6/2003;

Newsweek, 6/25/2003 Sources: Shadi Abdallah] But the administration never

offers any conclusive evidence to support this allegation. The claim is

disputed by intelligence analysts in both Washington and London. [Daily

Telegraph, 2/4/2003]

In April 2002, German intelligence compile a report about militant leader

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi; it suggests that al-Zarqawi is not a part of al-Qaeda

(see March 28, 2002). At the end of March 2002, al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida

was captured and interrogated by US forces While few details of what Zubaida

is said to say are known, some details must have been quickly passed to the

Germans because this German intelligence report says, "Even in the

interrogations of al-Qaeda leaders there are no indications of al-Zarqawi's

membership in al-Qaeda. Thus, Abu Zubaida (an al-Qaeda recruiter), in one of

his interrogations, speaks instead about the 'Group of al-Zarqawi." [bergen,

2006, pp. 359, 422] (Note that information gained from such interrogations

are of unknown reliability, especially when torture is used. Zubaida appears

to be tortured around this time

US intelligence determines that Islamist militant leader Abu Musab

al-Zarqawi has recently moved to a part of northern Iraq controlled by

Kurdish rebels, and his militant group has set up a chemical weapons lab

there. The lab, located near the town of Khurmal, allegedly produces ricin

and cyanide. [MSNBC, 3/2/2004] By early 2002, al-Zarqawi had been identified

as a significant terrorist target, based on intelligence that he ran an

important training camp in Afghanistan and had already unsuccessfully

attempted plots against Israeli and European targets. CIA intelligence

indicates al-Zarqawi is in the camp, along with many al-Qaeda fighters who

had recently fled from US air strikes in Afghanistan. Additionally, there

are preparations and training in the camp for new attacks on Western

interests. [Wall Street Journal, 10/25/2004] The US military draws up plans

to attack the site with cruise missiles, and the plans are sent to the White

House. However, NBC News will later report that, "according to US government

sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council."

[MSNBC, 3/2/2004] Officials involved in the planning expect a swift

decision, but are surprised when weeks go by without any response from the

White House. Finally, information is somehow leaked to the media in Turkey

that the US is considering targeting the camp, and intelligence shows that

al-Zarqawi and his group flees the camp soon thereafter. [Wall Street

Journal, 10/25/2004]

Sept 2002:

Rumsfeld claims the US government has "bulletproof" confirmation of ties

between the Iraqi government and al-Qaeda members, including "solid

evidence" that al-Qaeda maintains a presence in Iraq. The allegation refers

to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian-born Palestinian who is the founder of

al-Tawhid, an organization whose aim is to kill Jews and install an Islamic

regime in Jordan . Rumsfeld's statement is based on intercepted telephone

calls in which al-Zarqawi was overheard calling friends or relatives. But

Knight Ridder Newspapers reports that according to US intelligence

officials, "The intercepts provide no evidence that the suspected terrorist

was working with the Iraqi regime or that he was working on a terrorist

operation while he was in Iraq." [Knight Ridder, 10/7/2002 Sources: Unnamed

US Intelligence Officials]

October 2, 2002: US Officials Leak Dubious Claim that Al-Zarqawi Stayed in

Baghdad with Approval of Hussein Government

The Associated Press reports that Islamist militant leader Abu Musab

al-Zarqawi "was in Baghdad about two months ago, and US officials suspect

his presence was known to the government of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein,

a defense official said." This anonymous US official also calls al-Zarqawi

among al-Qaeda's top two dozen leaders. The article notes that "some US

officials. contend the United States has no solid evidence of Iraq and

al-Qaeda working together to conduct terrorist operations." [Associated

Press, 10/2/2002] But despite this caveat, just five days later, in a public

speech President Bush mentions "one very senior al-Qaeda leader who received

medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with

planning for chemical and biological attacks" (see October 7, 2002). This is

a reference to al-Zarqawi, and is said to be based on communications

intercepts. But the same day as the speech, Knight Ridder Newspapers reports

that according to US intelligence officials, "The intercepts provide no

evidence that [al-Zarqawi] was working with the Iraqi regime or that he was

working on a terrorist operation while he was in Iraq." [Knight Ridder,

10/7/2002; US President, 10/14/2002] After the US invades Iraq in March

2003, evidence of this Baghdad connection will start to be questioned.

Reports that al-Zarqawi was there to have a leg amputated will later be

debunked (In June 2003, Newsweek will report, "Bush Administration officials

also have acknowledged that their information about al-Zarqawi's stay in

Baghdad is sketchy at best." [Newsweek, 6/25/2003] Whether al-Zarqawi stayed

in Baghdad and if the Hussein government was aware of his movements remains

unclear.

>He spent

> two months recovering in Baghdad, at which time "nearly two dozen

> extremists converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations

> there." Powell informed that "these Al Qaida affiliates, based in

> Baghdad, now coordinate the movement of people, money and supplies

> into and throughout Iraq for his network, and they've now been

> operating freely in the capital for more than eight months."

NOpe he didn't! My evidence is above!

>

> http://www.cfr.org/publication/9513/

>

> Has Iraq sponsored terrorism?

> Yes. Saddam Hussein's dictatorship provided headquarters, operating

> bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups fighting

> the governments of neighboring Turkey and Iran, as well as to

> hard-line Palestinian groups. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam

> commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities.

> Prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the State Department listed Iraq

> as a state sponsor of terrorism.

Based on WHAT evidence? They ALSO listed Iraq as having WMD! But they havent

produced any so for!

>

> What type of terrorist groups did Iraq support under Saddam Hussein?s

> regime?

> Primarily groups that could hurt Saddam's regional foes. Saddam has

> aided the Iranian dissident group Mujahedeen-e-Khalq and the Kurdistan

> Workers' Party (known by its Turkish initials, PKK), a separatist

> group fighting the Turkish government. Moreover, Iraq has hosted

> several Palestinian splinter groups that oppose peace with Israel ,

> including the mercenary Abu Nidal Organization, whose leader, Abu

> Nidal, was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002. Iraq has also

> supported the Islamist Hamas movement and reportedly channeled money

> to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

allo this is deal with above. the channeling money is a SPIN on "gave money

to widows" NOT supporting terrorism!

>

> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID={27E6CB2F-8494-4D5A-998B-AFECEBB84D54}

LOL front page mag again.

>

> The Saddam-al Qaeda relationship began in the early 1990s and was

> brokered by Sudanese strongman Hassan al Turabi. By 1993, Saddam and

> bin Laden reached an informal non-aggression pact -- you don't mess

> with me, I won't mess with you. There is some evidence that they

> cooperated throughout the mid-1990s, perhaps on chemical and

> biological weapons -- while al Qaeda was based in the Sudan.

No there isnt any evidence and you wont produceit because it doesnt exist.

There was ONE proven meeting with al Qaeda asnd two more possibles. Saddam

rebuiffed the approaches of Al Qaeda and three possible meetings over 15

years do not constitute planning and supporting terror! Indeed the USuhad

mor meetings with Islamists over the period!

[snip - repeat of the above debunked al Zakawi story]

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:d5htl3p7nvibllak2qk9tvf3at2uvqqaac@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:51:41 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>Snip QED

>

> done.

>

> http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=12525

> It's become a Liberal "article of faith" that Iraq had no weapons of

> mass destruction and no intention to build them, despite all the

> evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed and used them many times.

Wrong! Didnt have them in 2003! If so whgere are they? Had them in the 1980s

because the US and others SOLD them to Saddam. Used twice or three times.

Had plans for nukes too but all this was decomissioned in the 1990s.

[snip- dealt with this in above thread]

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:bvhtl39vui8d0qmecphh1nh1mmul2tc4iv@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:51:42 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>

>>"messenger" <list@adrian.of> wrote in message

>>news:ab8rl3tbhmeeqmnv1bjemd6n8ui3bc7js5@4ax.com...

>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:43:34 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>We can criticise a Muslim for planting an IED in Iraq but not a so

>>>>called

>>>>"christian" for bombing a shopping centre in Manchester

>>>

>>> Learn not to conflate disparate conflicts, you self-laothing moron.

>>

>>What do you mean by "conflating disparate conflicts"?

>

> What do you wilfully FAIL to comprehend?

That queastion is fallacious! How can one "willfully fail" to comprehend

anything?

>

> They are 2 totally DIFFERENT situations.

What a terrorist planting a bomb which kills children is somehow only wrong

when the terrorist is Islamic?

And people giving money to the family of the terrorist is supporting his

terrorism?

>

> Muslime vs. the West.

Muslims are not opposed to the West. Many live and work in the West.

Fundamentalists (Christian and Islamic) are oposed to the Western

democracies.

>

> Catholic vs. Protestant.

You have a niave view of the Irish question if you think it is about

Catholic and Protestant. the example I cited of bombing Manchester by the

PIRA was NOT a secterian act! It was not targeted against Protestants! The

IRA were NOT motivated by Religion!

>

> Grow a brain.

do a bit of research! Igive you some sites if you wish.

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:3tltl3l9se7tjd09j6rvtmus7aqn14mua8@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:14:31 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>Cant you show ANY evidecen od Al Qaeda n Iraq in 2002?

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

This is in NORTHERN Iraq and was outside Saddams influence! I have already

dealt with this. Saddam tried to attcck them but he didn't control Northern

Iraq! Saddam OPPOSED these Islamists! It is not evidence of Saddam

supporting or helping to train them. Even the Kurds dont like them but they

tolerated them because the Islamists were and enemy of Saddam.

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

>

> TERROR TO GO

[snip]

Factually incorrect. the amputation incident and the training in BAGDHAD

(not Northern Iraq but in Saddam controlled Bagdadh ) is a hoax! Where is

the supporting evidence?

> From Iran Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002, where his wounded leg

> was amputated and the limb fitted with a prosthetic device.

No it wasnt!

He spent

> two months recovering in Baghdad, at which time "nearly two dozen

> extremists converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations

> there."

No he didn't! The original source for this is you old "Powell speech to the

UN" isnt it? Full of CLAIMS but short on EVIDENCE!

>Powell informed that "these Al Qaida affiliates, based in

> Baghdad,

[snip]

December 12, 2007

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

news:d7c55165-5c7e-4e58-91de-5e86358d86b2@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 11, 12:14 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

>>

>> news:c97910af-01a5-4fcd-8f56-a9e5d6142627@o6g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> > On Dec 10, 3:31 pm, messenger <l...@adrian.of> wrote:

>> >> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:32:12 -0800 (PST), Merlin

>> >> <johndo...@fastmail.fm> mumbled:

>>

>> [snip]

>>

>> > You're right. I've stumped the idiot. He always claims shit he can't

>> > back up.

>>

>> No I dont! In fact I rarely make claims at all.

>

> Yes you do. You keep claiming that I've posted statements that I

> haven't.

Which ones? Since you claim I do it should be easy to show. so show me three

claims i have made about statements posted by you. If I have nbeen unclear

in any way I am quite happy to clarify. we will look at your original

statements and I will ask you if indeed you meant what I claimed. If you say

you didnt mean it then I will withdraw any unsupported claims. what could be

fairer then that?

So show me three claims i made and the original statements? Betya you cant!

> When I post and tell you to show me where I said it, you

> conveniently don't answer. Just like always.

REally? So show me three instances of that happening. Can you? Bet not! So

much for "always" LOL!

>

>> Here is a claim I do make.

>>

>> BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any

>> other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!

>> The US occupation facilitated rather than mitigated against Islamists!

>> [end claim]

>

> I know you repeatedly keep saying that. Regardless if anyone disagrees

> with you or not.

No it is a COUNTER CLAIM! The CLAIM in this case is in fact the POSITIVE

claim i.e. There WERE Islamists ooperating in Saddam's Iraq!

The counter clainm is there were NOT Islamists of note (by of note i mean a

widely known and organised group intent on international terror) supported

by Saddam.

>

>> All you need to do is show some evidence of Islamists in SADDAM

>> CONTROLLED

>> Iraq being supported by him1

>

> I don't "need" to show you jack shit. I've never claimed that you were

> wrong.

Yes you have! By my claim being a counter claim the original claim is that

there WERE Islamists supported and trained by Saddam!

Are you now claiming that you NEVER claimed that in the part of Iraq

controlled by Saddam there NEVER WERE any groups of Islamists training or

being supported by Saddam or even ones he turned a blind eye to?

I think you will find you HAVE made those claims but if you didnt I am happy

to clarify that as well. I believe you did make those claims and I am

prepared to show that.

>That being the case, why should I be compelled to show you

> anything, you pompous ass?

Because it is NOT the case! You DID claim about Al queda or other Islamists

being supported by Saddam.

>

>> Come on? Cant you show ANY evidecen od Al Qaeda n Iraq in 2002? Of saddam

>> assisting them?

>

> I have no idea what you mean by "show any evidecen od". Just what in

> the fuck does that group of letters mean in your language? If you

> haven't the intelligence to write English in a manner that conveys a

> meaningful phrase, why again should I feel compelled to fucking guess

> what it is that you're trying to say?

I don't find it necessary to lecture a spelling flame grammar NAZI like you

about redundancy in written language.

Please stop evading the question!

Can't you show ANY evidence of Al Qaeda or other Islamists being supported

by saddam in Iraq in 2002?

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:p2mtl353ep2f8juo5srb9r2dd96gf3nqvp@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:00:56 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>

>>"messenger" <list@adrian.of> wrote in message

>>news:lm1rl31ir2k533pru17hfu2ih2vjlet073@4ax.com...

>>> On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:32:12 -0800 (PST), Merlin

>>> <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>On Dec 9, 10:31 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>>>>> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

>>>>>

>>>>> news:867a7f1d-155f-4d57-b0d7-f42359f28241@w40g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

>>>>>

>>>>> > On Dec 4, 5:46 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> >> BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any

>>>>> >> other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!

>>>>> >> the US occupation facilitated rather than mitigated against

>>>>> >> Islamists!

>>>>>

>>>>> > You love to try that meaningless bit of information in almost all of

>>>>> > your posts.

>>>>>

>>>>> > You're wrong.

>>>>>

>>>>> Where is you support for the claim of Islamists having substantial

>>>>> control

>>>>> in Saddam controlled Iraq?

>>>>

>>>>Show me a quote where I said that.

>>>>

>>>>As soon as you've done this, I'll answer you.

>>>

>>> Lol, closing this one out...

>>

>>yeah close tyhe door on your way out

>>

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

> Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

> the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

> harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

> controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

NOT in Saddam controled Iraq! OPPOSED by Saddam. He even tried to attack

them!

>

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

>

> TERROR TO GO

> Zarqawi's own movements are themselves telling. After being wounded in

[snip]

Factually incorrect. He didnt get an amputation and there were no Islamists

training in Bagdadh?

December 12, 2007

On Dec 12, 6:59 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

> > I have no idea what you mean by "show any evidecen od". Just what in

> > the fuck does that group of letters mean in your language? If you

> > haven't the intelligence to write English in a manner that conveys a

> > meaningful phrase, why again should I feel compelled to fucking guess

> > what it is that you're trying to say?

>

> I don't find it necessary to lecture a spelling flame grammar NAZI like you

> about redundancy in written language.

> Please stop evading the question!

I'q nu evacaing anthic. of udi qiwa vours a;onew, then i'q nloq my

problem.

There ya go asshole. I'll type just as you do.

Figure it out and answer me NOW.

December 12, 2007

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

news:723a93e8-c8e3-4d79-b050-fe59c596ccf5@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 12, 6:59 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>

>> > I have no idea what you mean by "show any evidecen od". Just what in

>> > the fuck does that group of letters mean in your language? If you

>> > haven't the intelligence to write English in a manner that conveys a

>> > meaningful phrase, why again should I feel compelled to fucking guess

>> > what it is that you're trying to say?

>>

>> I don't find it necessary to lecture a spelling flame grammar NAZI like

>> you

>> about redundancy in written language.

>> Please stop evading the question!

>

> I'q nu evacaing anthic. of udi qiwa vours a;onew, then i'q nloq my

> problem.

>

You are avoiding things! you are avoiding answering the question that most

certainly IS your problem! .

Evasion noted!

you SNIPPED the comments and didn't indicate doing so! And you deign to

lecture me on correct attribution???

Are you now claiming that you NEVER claimed that in the part of Iraq

controlled by Saddam there NEVER WERE any groups of Islamists training or

being supported by Saddam or even ones he turned a blind eye to?

I think you will find you HAVE made those claims but if you didn't I am

happy

for you to clarify that as well. I believe you did make those claims and I

am

prepared to show that. Watch folks how Merlin RUNS AWAY from this issue!

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:94mtl3tojhe4n8cilq97a9mfe28hu5fe2d@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:00:56 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>then you ask me to show where you had claimed I was wrong and that there

>>were Islamists in Saddam controlled Iraq.

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

NORTHERN Iraq was NOT "Saddam controlled!! Nor were these groups supported

by Saddam!

[snip]

December 12, 2007

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

news:d7397d30-2203-4370-97b7-2fe8685f606e@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 11, 12:00 pm, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

>>

>> news:4faff4ef-9cbb-4851-ab93-e7aa5b34ae05@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> > On Dec 9, 10:31 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>> >> "Merlin" <johndo...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

>>

>> >>news:867a7f1d-155f-4d57-b0d7-f42359f28241@w40g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

>>

>> >> > On Dec 4, 5:46 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>>

>> >> >> BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any

>> >> >> other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!

>> >> >> the US occupation facilitated rather than mitigated against

>> >> >> Islamists!

>>

>> >> > You love to try that meaningless bit of information in almost all of

>> >> > your posts.

>>

>> >> > You're wrong.

>>

>> >> Where is you support for the claim of Islamists having substantial

>> >> control

>> >> in Saddam controlled Iraq?

>>

>> > Show me a quote where I said that.

>>

>> > As soon as you've done this, I'll answer you.

>>

>> You have comprehension problems.

>> It is only TWO LINES ABOVE! LOL!

>> [your words]

>> You love to try that meaningless bit of information in almost all of

>> your posts.

>> [end quote]

>>

>> And the piece of information to which you refer was:

>> BEFORE the US occupation there was not Al Qaeda or any

>> other Islamists groups of note in Iraq!

>>

>> i.e. I claim that Saddam didn't want and worked against Islamists in

>> Iraq.

>> That effectively there were not any in power.

>> You claim that this is not a valid claim.

>> I ask you to show me where I am wrong then. show me examples of Islamists

>> in

>> control of Saddams Iraq. I do NOT mean the no fly zone of Kurdish

>> controlled

>> Iraq but where Saddams military had their sphere of influence. that's why

>> I

>> mentioned "Saddam controlled"

>>

>> then you ask me to show where you had claimed I was wrong and that there

>> were Islamists in Saddam controlled Iraq. By default you have shot

>> yourself

>> in the foot by asking me to show a quote where you claim that i am wrong

>> in

>> the assertion that there we not Islamists in control in Saddams Iraq!

>

> I was right. You ARE that fucking stupid.

>

> Read "droll yankee" post, you dumbass.

>

> Like I said, YOU'RE WRONG.

"Like I said" is just claiming you made a claim! It is NOT evidence to

SUPPORT your claim. No matter how many times you repeat it if it isn't true

it STILL wont be true! You may well believe or want to believe that Saddam

trained terrorists and had WMD and that is why the Us were invading but the

truth is that there have been NO LINKS shown to terrorists and NO WMD found!

The claim was loads of WMD and extensive links with Saddam supporting

Islamists. Thre just has NOT been any evidence to back this up!

The facty that there were some Al qaeda operating outside Saddams control in

Northern Iraq is NOT evidence of Saddam supporting or assisting Al Qaeda!

The existance of a SEALED (by the UN) storage of Radioactives found (by the

UN) in 1991 is NOT evidence of WMD! The payments to the widows of dead

terrorists is NOT supporting terror and the FALSE and UNSUPPORTED (in fact

LATER pictures show him WITHOUT a false leg) of Islamists getting legs

amputated and training in Bagdadh is NOT evidence of Islamists supported by

Saddam!

That is all the so called evidence you keep repeating! Oh yes and 5000 empty

used ammo cartridges which are CLAIMED to have held WMD years ago! Even

though the tests are not show these clearly are NOT WMD! No more than the

shadow on a wall can be claimed to be the person casting it!

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:59:58 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>This is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

Most of them fled Afghanistan after the US-led offensive, but

officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which controls

part of north-east Iraq, claim an "abnormal" number of recruits are

making their way to the area from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. "They are

being trained for terrorist operations within the Kurdish region and

beyond, possibly Europe," one said.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

TERROR TO GO

Zarqawi's own movements are themselves telling. After being wounded in

the leg in Afghanistan, Zarqawi escaped to Iran. While there, he

dispatched two Palestinians and a Jordanian who entered Turkey

illegally from Iran on their way to conduct bombing attacks in Israel.

The three, members of Beyyiat el-Imam (a group linked to al Qaeda) who

fought for the Taliban and received terrorist training in Afghanistan,

were intercepted and arrested by Turkish police on February 15, 2002.

From Iran Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002, where his wounded leg

was amputated and the limb fitted with a prosthetic device. He spent

two months recovering in Baghdad, at which time "nearly two dozen

extremists converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations

there." Powell informed that "these Al Qaida affiliates, based in

Baghdad, now coordinate the movement of people, money and supplies

into and throughout Iraq for his network, and they've now been

operating freely in the capital for more than eight months."

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9513/

Has Iraq sponsored terrorism?

Yes. Saddam Hussein

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:03 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>> http://www.command-post.org/oped/2_archives/015496.html

>[snip]

>

>That source has been dealt with above in this thread!

WRONG!

Interview With Gen. Michael DeLong

In his new book, Inside CentCom: The Unvarnished Truth About the Wars

in Afghanistan and Iraq, retired Gen. Michael DeLong

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>Muslims are not opposed to the West.

LIAR!

http://www.contenderministries.org/islam/jihad.php

Since 9/11, the word "Jihad" has become a household word. Jihad

literally means "struggle" in Arabic. Among conservative Muslims, the

word has come to mean "holy war".

There are actually two kinds of Jihad. There is the Greater Jihad,

which is the inner struggle for sanctity. Then there is the Lesser

Jihad, or an actual fight against infidels, or non-Muslims. For our

purposes, we will discuss only the Lesser Jihad. After all, this is

the Jihad that has resulted in countless attacks against U.S. and

Israeli interests. The Muslim scripture - the Qur'an - refers to Jews

and Christians specifically as infidels. Therefore, it should be no

surprise that Israel and the U.S. (a nation at least founded as a

Christian nation) would be the primary targets of the Jihad.

Many would say that only "radical" Muslims espouse Jihad. If that is

so, then every Muslim who believes in the Qur'an must be radical. As

you shall see, the Qur'an specifically makes a case for waging Jihad

against infidels. The following are quotes from the Qur'an:

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,

including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the

enemies of Allah...Whatever ye spend in the cause of Allah shall be

repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." (Surah 8:60)

"Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if

they were a solid cemented structure," (Surah 61:4).

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress

limits...191And slay them wherever ye catch them. and turn them out

from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than

slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they (first)

fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward

of those who reject faith. 192 But if they cease, Allah is

oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 193And fight them on until there is no

more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they

cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice

oppression" (Surah 2:190-193).

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are

asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the

earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But

little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.

Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and

put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For

Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish

you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye

would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

(Surah 9:38-39).

"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies" (Surah 4:101)

"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take

no friends or helpers from their ranks." (Surah 4:89)

"Then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them,

beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."

(Surah 9:5)

As you can see, the commandment to wage a holy war against infidels

comes not from some radical Islamic cleric. It comes, in fact, from

the Islamic scripture! And while there are radical Muslim sects, one

of which thinks that Jihad should be the sixth Pillar of Islam, the

practice of Jihad is mainstream. For even more evidence, let's refer

to the Hadith. The Hadith are the quotes and actions of the Muslim

prophet Muhammad. They are often used in conjunction with the Qur'an

to clarify scripture. As you can see, Muhammad favored Holy War as

well:

"The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in

Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah

and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward,

or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is

killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my

followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad

and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made

alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred

in His cause." Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35, Narrated Abu Huraira.

"Allah's Apostle said, "A pious slave gets a double reward." Abu

Huraira added: By Him in Whose Hands my soul is but for Jihad (i.e.

holy battles), Hajj, and my duty to serve my mother, I would have

loved to die as a slave. Volume 3, Book 46, Number 724: Narrated Abu

Huraira.

"Allah's Apostle said, "Allah guarantees (the person who carries out

Jihad in His Cause and nothing compelled him to go out but Jihad in

His Cause and the belief in His Word) that He will either admit him

into Paradise (Martyrdom) or return him with reward or booty he has

earned to his residence from where he went out." Volume 9, Book 93,

Number 555: Narrated Abu Huraira.

Why is it important to know this? Because every non-Muslim must

realize that according to Islam, you are an infidel. And to a

faithful Muslim who believes the Qur'an and faithfully executes his

religious duties, you are an enemy.

It's also important to know this, because fundamental Islamic nations

make war and fund terror based on the belief in Jihad. Many of these

nations outlaw not only Christian evangelizing, but also the very

practice of Christianity. People have been imprisoned and even

sentenced to death for being openly Christian. These people are

Christian martyrs, who contended for their faith and the cost of their

own earthly lives. What great rewards God must have for them in

Heaven!

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>this is another hoax story. I have also dealt with this in this thread.

BULLSHITTER!