Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:ut50m3tshsoh7tu9c3iahufonad814vkuv@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>Muslims are not opposed to the West.

>

> LIAR!

>

> http://www.contenderministries.org/islam/jihad.php

>

> Since 9/11, the word "Jihad" has become a household word. Jihad

> literally means "struggle" in Arabic. Among conservative Muslims, the

> word has come to mean "holy war".

>

> There are actually two kinds of Jihad. There is the Greater Jihad,

> which is the inner struggle for sanctity. Then there is the Lesser

> Jihad, or an actual fight against infidels, or non-Muslims. For our

> purposes, we will discuss only the Lesser Jihad. After all, this is

> the Jihad that has resulted in countless attacks against U.S. and

> Israeli interests. The Muslim scripture - the Qur'an - refers to Jews

> and Christians specifically as infidels. Therefore, it should be no

> surprise that Israel and the U.S. (a nation at least founded as a

> Christian nation) would be the primary targets of the Jihad.

>

> Many would say that only "radical" Muslims espouse Jihad. If that is

> so, then every Muslim who believes in the Qur'an must be radical. As

> you shall see, the Qur'an specifically makes a case for waging Jihad

> against infidels. The following are quotes from the Qur'an:

[snip]

AS can every fundamentalist Christian! And there are ample similar quotes in

the Bible!

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:q260m3lv34gpqk1tdbighretki06atipg0@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>Wrong!

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

> Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

> the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

> harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

> controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

>

[snip - already dealt with above]

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:g260m3he1ovingqqvisjls1h2oss98n0dg@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>[snip

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

[snip - if you have any counter argument to the already given reply to this

then please make it instead of spamming back your original rebutted source]

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:21:03 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"Mavisbaconator" <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> wrote in message

>news:vKP7j.95$R94.30@amsnews12...

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/15996.htm

Silence by Murder

For more than 20 years, Saddam Hussein has executed perceived

opponents without respect for rule of law. Saddam Hussein silences

these alleged dissidents because he believes that their political

beliefs, faith, ethnic background, family members or acquaintances are

a threat to his power. Some are first taken as political prisoners

before being executed. In February 1998, 400 prisoners at Abu Gharaib

prison were executed summarily. Two months later, 100 detainees from

Radwaniyah Prison were buried alive in a pit in Ramadi province. These

killings were supposed to "clean out" the prisons. More than 3,000

people have been killed in a similar manner since 1997.

Summary executions in Iraq take many cruel forms. A quick yet

effective method is to line up the entire male population of a village

and shoot them systematically, one at a time, in order to eliminate

the village. Saddam Hussein?s regime, however, often prefers methods

that take more time, and inflict more pain on the victim and the

victim?s family. His regime has poisoned political prisoners by giving

them a slow-acting poison, thallium, which slowly infiltrates the

system and takes several days to bring death. Iraqi citizens are often

decapitated in front of family members, and at other times, they are

shot in front of family members and the family is charged for the cost

of the bullet. Saddam Hussein has perfected many of these methods of

murder on Kurds in Northern Iraq and religious leaders from the Shi?a

community, claiming that they are disloyal to the Government. Once

murdered, many Iraqis are buried in unmarked graves so that their

family members cannot visit them.

"It has been the Iraqi regime?s policy to change the demography of

Iraq, by eradicating the Kurdish population from areas that are deemed

important in the north of the country. The regime has done this

through forced deportation, arbitrary arrests, and systematic

torture." ? Paiman Halmat, teacher, former Iraqi citizen

As a particularly brutal example of silencing political opposition, it

is estimated that at least 30,000 to 60,000 members of the Shi?a

community were killed during their post-Gulf war political

insurrection in southern Iraq.

Silence Through Torture

Under Saddam Hussein?s orders, the security apparatus in Iraq

routinely and systematically tortures its citizens. Beatings, rape,

breaking of limbs and denial of food and water are commonplace in

Iraqi detention centers. Saddam Hussein?s regime has also invented

unique and horrific methods of torture including electric shocks to a

male?s genitals, pulling out fingernails, suspending individuals from

rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on a victim?s skin, gouging out

eyes, and burning victims with a hot iron or blowtorch.

Gwynne Roberts, a reporter for the London-based Independent, describes

her experience in a torture center in Northern Iraq:

In one cell pieces of human flesh ? ear lobes ? were nailed to the

wall, and blood spattered the ceiling. A large metal fan hung from the

ceiling and my guide told me prisoners were attached to the fan and

beaten with clubs as they twirled. There were hooks in the ceiling

used to suspend victims. A torture victim told me that prisoners were

also crucified, nails driven through their hands into the wall. A

favorite technique was to hang men from the hooks and attach a heavy

weight to their testicles.

? Independent, March 29, 1991

Foreign citizens are not spared the brutality either. Large numbers of

Kuwaiti citizens were murdered, tortured and raped during the Gulf

War. More than two dozen torture centers in Kuwait City have been

discovered, and photographic evidence confirms reports of electric

shocks, acid baths, summary execution and the use of electric drills

to penetrate a victim?s body. Many innocent civilian citizens were

also used as human shields.

Branding and amputations have been routine in Iraqi hospitals. In

1994, the Iraqi government issued at least nine decrees that

established cruel penalties such as branding. Amputation has been used

against citizens convicted of military desertion. One citizen whose

hand was cut off was paraded on national television as a method of

instilling fear in the people.

In 1994 and 1995 alone, large numbers of soldiers had portions of

their ears cut off for deserting the army. The government branded an

"X" on the foreheads of these soldiers so that Iraqi citizens did not

think that these soldiers were wounded war heroes. Doctors who refused

to perform the operations were threatened with reprisals, and many

have been arrested and detained. The Iraqi authorities also issued a

decree in 1994 making it illegal for doctors to perform plastic or

corrective surgery for victims of branding and amputation. In 2000, a

new Iraqi decree was issued authorizing the government to amputate the

tongues of citizens who criticize Saddam Hussein or his government.

Torture Methods in Iraq

Medical experimentation

Beatings

Crucifixion

Hammering nails into the fingers and hands

Amputating the penis or breasts with an electric carving knife

Spraying insecticides into a victim?s eyes

Branding with a hot iron

Committing rape while the victim?s spouse is forced to watch

Pouring boiling water into a rectum

Nailing the tongue to a wooden board

Extracting teeth with pliers

Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their

parents

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:21:03 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

>news:ut50m3tshsoh7tu9c3iahufonad814vkuv@4ax.com...

>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>

>>>Muslims are not opposed to the West.

>>

>> LIAR!

>>

>> http://www.contenderministries.org/islam/jihad.php

>>

>> Since 9/11, the word "Jihad" has become a household word. Jihad

>> literally means "struggle" in Arabic. Among conservative Muslims, the

>> word has come to mean "holy war".

>>

>> There are actually two kinds of Jihad. There is the Greater Jihad,

>> which is the inner struggle for sanctity. Then there is the Lesser

>> Jihad, or an actual fight against infidels, or non-Muslims. For our

>> purposes, we will discuss only the Lesser Jihad. After all, this is

>> the Jihad that has resulted in countless attacks against U.S. and

>> Israeli interests. The Muslim scripture - the Qur'an - refers to Jews

>> and Christians specifically as infidels. Therefore, it should be no

>> surprise that Israel and the U.S. (a nation at least founded as a

>> Christian nation) would be the primary targets of the Jihad.

>>

>> Many would say that only "radical" Muslims espouse Jihad. If that is

>> so, then every Muslim who believes in the Qur'an must be radical. As

>> you shall see, the Qur'an specifically makes a case for waging Jihad

>> against infidels. The following are quotes from the Qur'an:

>[snip]

>

>AS can every fundamentalist Christian! And there are ample similar quotes in

>the Bible!

You INSOLENT MORON!

Christians are not enagged in Jihad and head chopping!

http://hindutva.org/quran.html

The Muslims are commanded to wage an everlasting war against the

unbelievers and are assured victory in the struggle. Surely, the

Marxist social philosophy is an extension of the Koranic doctrine. To

realize the significance of this statement, one ought to read the

following:

1. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. (The Cow: 161 )

2. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. ( The Cow: 15 )

3. The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will

not believe. (Spoils of War: 55)

4. Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)

5. Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them

find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

6. Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your

friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes

them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20) 7. Humiliate

the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

( Repentance: 29 )

Through the doctrine of hatred, Islam incites Muslims against

non-Muslims and proposes Jehad as the solution to make Islam the

dominant faith. What is Jehad? It is the battle against unbelievers

such as the Hindus, the Christians, the Jews, the atheists - in fact,

unbelievers of all sorts.

Jehad is nothing but an Inducement to Murder and Plunder non-Muslims

for their Sheer Crime of Not Believing in Muhammad

Since humans do not like harming innocent people, Jehad is nothing but

an inducement to murder and plunder non-Muslims for the sheer crime of

not believing in Muhammad. It is called a "holy war." Those who return

home victoriously, come laden with booty, which includes wealth and

non-Muslim women for concubinage and free seduction but those

"crusaders" who are killed "in the way of Allah" go straight to

paradise where ever-young virgins of exquisite beauty and pretty boys

anxiously wait to serve them! Even more stunning is the fact that

while every code of moral conduct treats murder, rape, plunder,

lechery as sins, Islam counts them as acts of piety.

Islamic Jehad is a Perpetual Declaration of War on Non-Muslims

Islam, in fact, is a perpetual declaration of war against all those,

who do not believe in Muhammad. This war is not confined to words but

it is really brutish, barbaric and bewildering. It makes society a hot

bed of mutual hatred based on discrimination of Momin (Muslim) and

Kafir (non-Muslim). Thus, it ignites the flame of eternal conflict far

more dangerous, debilitating and devastating than Karl-Marx could ever

visualize: "They (unbelievers) are Satan's party they are the

losers.... Those (the Muslims) are God's party....they are the

prosperers." (LVIII The Disputer: 20)

Islam is basically a medium of Arab Imperialism - Military, Political,

Economic and Cultural

Anwar Shaikh, a scholar of Islam writes the following in his essay

entitled ISLAM - The Arab National Movement, about how and why Islam

is basically a medium of Arab Imperialism - Military, Political,

Economic and Cultural.

In the words of Anwar Shaikh:

"1. The Prophet declared that he was the best individual of all

humans; the Koresh, his tribe were the best of all Arabian tribes and

Arabs were the best of all nations.

2. For this purpose, he used the oldest Semitic device of revelation

to declare himself a prophet, who is supposed to have no axe of his

own to grind but does what he is told by God.

3. As the Jews had a national God called "Yahwe," the Prophet chose

Allah, the Lord of Kaaba, an idol of his own tribe, and raised it to

the dignity of the one supreme God.

4. The Prophet made Kaaba, the sacred shrine of the Arabs as the

holiest place of Islam so that whoever believes in Islam must also

acknowledge the greatness of Arabia and its people.

5. The Prophet Mohammed made Haj, i.e. pilgrimage to the Kaaba, an old

pre-lslamic Arab rite, a basic tenet of his religion to impress upon

foreign (non-Arab) Muslims the sanctity of Arabia, and create an

everlasting source of income for the Arabs.

6. He insisted that God's covenant was not with Abraham and Isaac but

with Abraham and Ishmael. It is universally known that Ishmael was the

direct ancestor of the Arabs. Thus, one can clearly see that the

purpose of Islam is glorification of the Arab nationalism.

7. The Kaaba serves a much greater national purpose of the Arabs than

that which Jerusalem renders to the Jews or Rome to the Christians

(Catholics). It is guardian of the Arab nationalism at the expense of

the national conscience of the non-Arab Muslims who believe that they

have no individual nationality of their own, and prefer to be called

Muslims. Thus the Arabs have achieved the status of a nucleus whereas

the non-Arab Muslims have gladly become their satellites in the hope

of gaining paradise. It ought to be remembered that the Prophet shall

not open the gates of paradise to those Moslems who are not friendly

with the Arabs.

The Prophet said:

a. "May Allah humiliate those who seek to humiliate the Quresh (his

tribe)." Sahih Tirmzi Vol. 2 p.335)

b. The Prophet said to Sulaiman Farsee (the Persian Convert), "If you

bear odium against the Arabs, you bear odium against me." (Sahih

Tirmzi Vol.2. p.840)

c. The Prophet said: "I will not intercede for those or love them who

are not fair with the Arabs." (Sahih Tirmzi Vol . 2 p.840 ) Of course,

there is a difference of opinion about the degree of accuracy about

these Hadiths i.e. the Prophet's sayings, yet they are there. If they

were inappropriate they would have been expunged. They are correct

because they correspond with the Arabic ethos of Islam.

8. The Prophet built the structure of Islam around the sanctity of his

own person by declaring himself:

a. the Intercessor, b. the blessing for the mankind, and

c. the model of actions for all faithful.

9. Since Muhammad preferred Arabs to other nations, love of the Arabs

becomes a prerequisite of Islam.

10. Since faith means belief in both Allah and Muhammad, the Islamic

God represents duality as the Christian doctrine of Trinity represents

Three- in-one. Not only Muhammad was an Arab, Allah, the Lord of the

Kaaba, was also an Arab statue. Thus Islam is there to serve the Arab

cause.

11. The Koran is an Arabic document. It is primarily a book for the

understanding and guidance of the Arabs. Calling it a universal

message is just an innovation for subjugating the non-Arab Muslims to

the national hegemony of the Arabs.

Illegitimate Sex Amongst Muslims is Haram, but for a Mujahid Taking Up

Non-Muslim Women as Concubines in a Jehad is Legitimate

Carnal gratification, man's greatest desire, is the first temptation

that the concept of Jihad carries. A Mujahid i.e. the Islamic warrior,

who at that time suffered pangs of sexual starvation in the torrid

land of Arabia, was promised plenty of sensual enjoyment as a reward

for participating in the carnage whether or not he survived the rigors

of the battlefield. If he (a Mujahid - Islamic warrior) got killed, he

was assured that the houris waited for his glorious company in Jannnat

i.e. paradise, and if he survived, he had a share in the plunder,

which included women of the infidels. Islam has prescribed flogging,

and death-by-stoning for sexual offenses such as fornication and

adultery because it holds such acts as unlawful when committed out of

wedlock but when a Muslim "fights in the way of Allah" to murder the

infidels and plunder their property, then the Koran relaxes this rule:

"And anyone of you who has not the affluence to be able to marry

believing free women in wedlock, let him take believing handmaids that

your right hand owns ......So marry them, with their people's leave,

and give them their wages honorably as women in wedlock, not as in

license or taking lovers." (Women, IV: 25) These verses demonstrate

beyond a shadow of doubt that amongst Muslims, the Koran forbids

sexual intercourse outside wedlock: marriage is a must for the

fulfillment of sensual desires, but this law is blown off by the wind

of change when it comes to a Mujahid (the Holy warrior):

During the battle of Autas, the Muslims captured some women along with

their husbands. Though earlier, a Muslim had been forbidden sexual

intercourse with an unbelieving married woman, at this occasion, it

was revealed to the Prophet that Allah had relaxed this restriction

and permitted copulation to the warrior if she had fallen to his lot

in the battle and thus became his property. ( TIRMZI, vol. one, P 417

)

In the Islamic Jehad, sex was a big bait to attract followers, and

eventually, make them sincere devotees. After the people of Taif - the

last major Arab City to resist Islam - surrendered in February, 631

C.E., to escape horrors of the siege, Muhammad was presented with

three beautiful women; he gave one of them "to Ali, another to Usman

and the third to Omar." To realize the significance of this episode,

one ought to remember that both Ali and Usman were his sons-in-law and

Omar was his father-in-law.

The holy warriors of Islam have been given an unusual privilege of

sexual merriment. If they survive the battle, they secure concubines

but if they fall, they are sure to enter paradise full of houris

(beautiful maidens to be turned into concubines), living in the most

luxurious environment.

" For them (the Muslims) is reserved a definite provision, fruit and a

great honor in the Gardens of bliss reclining upon couches arranged

face to face, a cup from a fountain being passed round to them, while,

a pleasure to the drinkers ..... and with them wide eyed maidens

flexing their glances as if they were slightly concealed pearls. (The

Rangers, 40-45)

"Surely for the God-fearing awaits a place of security gardens and

vineyards and maidens with swelling bosoms." (The Tidings: 30)

The houris are ever-young women who have wide eyes, flexing glances

and swelling bosoms. Fancy the modesty of Allah and holiness of His

manners. Can anyone honestly say that it is not a lure to attract

followers?

The Motivation for Plunder, Loot and Booty in the Koran

The Koran also legitimizes booty and loot secured from non-Muslims

during a religious war - Jehad:

"Eat of what you have taken as booty, such is lawful and good. " (The

Spoils, VIII: 70)

To make his followers, the merciless looters, he thoroughly drilled

them in hatred of non-Muslims, the potential victims:

1. "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are the unbelievers."

(The Spoils: VIII: 55)

2. " Certainly, God is an enemy to the unbelievers . " (The Cow: II:

90)

3. "Oh ye who believe! fight those of the unbelievers and let them

find in you harshness." (Repentance: IX: 123)

4. "Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender

and pay tribute." ( Repentance IX: 29 )

Since it was plunder that paved the way to spread Islam, even those

things that the Prophet himself had declared sacred, lost their

sanctity when they proved inconvenient. For example, the Koran says:

"Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters (The

non-Muslims) wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them,

and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush" (Repentance, IX: 5)

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:21:03 GMT, "Mavisbaconator"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>[snip already dealt with -

SNAP - back in your face!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

Most of them fled Afghanistan after the US-led offensive, but

officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which controls

part of north-east Iraq, claim an "abnormal" number of recruits are

making their way to the area from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. "They are

being trained for terrorist operations within the Kurdish region and

beyond, possibly Europe," one said.

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:21:03 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

>news:q260m3lv34gpqk1tdbighretki06atipg0@4ax.com...

>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>

>>>Wrong!

>>

>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>>

>> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

>> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

>> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

>> Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

>> the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

>> harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

>> controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

>>

>

>[snip - already dealt with above]

SNAP!

Not.

....Most of them fled Afghanistan after the US-led offensive, but

officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which controls

part of north-east Iraq, claim an "abnormal" number of recruits are

making their way to the area from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. "They are

being trained for terrorist operations within the Kurdish region and

beyond, possibly Europe," one said.

It was reported this week that the Bush administration contemplated a

covert strike on Ansar-controlled territory because it suspected

al-Qaida had set up a laboratory there to experiment with chemical or

biological weapons.

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:22:48 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

>news:g260m3he1ovingqqvisjls1h2oss98n0dg@4ax.com...

>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:38:04 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>

>>>[snip

>>

>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>>

>[snip -

SNAP!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3070394/

SARGAT, Iraq, April 4 - Preliminary tests conducted by MSNBC.com

indicate that the deadly toxins ricin and botulinum were present on

two items found at a camp in a remote mountain region of northern Iraq

allegedly used as a terrorist training center by Islamic militants

with ties to the al-Qaida terrorist network. The field tests used by

MSNBC.com are only a first step in the evidentiary process and are

typically followed by more precise laboratory testing that MSNBC.com

has not conducted. U.S. intelligence agents were conducting their own

tests in the same area and had not yet released their results,

according to officials in northern Iraq.

MSNBC.COM CONDUCTED the tests over a two-day period at Sargat, an

alleged terrorist training camp a mile from the Iraq-Iran border.

MSNBC.com purchased the test kits commercially. The field tests,

developed by Osborn Scientific Group in Lakeside, Ariz., are regarded

by some experts as very effective and have been used by U.N. weapons

inspectors and federal government agents around the Sept. 11, 2001,

attack site in New York City.

The Sargat camp, set back in an isolated valley and surrounded by

snow-capped peaks, was home to the radical Islamic militant group

Ansar al-Islam, which counts among its some 700 followers scores of

al-Qaida fighters.

In a Feb. 5 speech to the U.N. Security Council, U.S. Secretary of

State Colin Powell showed a satellite photo of the Sargat camp and

described Ansar al-Islam as

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:4360m3l8n1o06r26n6apjsq5gru2lfub7f@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:59:58 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>This is

>

[snip - dealt with above]

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:u570m3tnckajcnjonn52jfdpp0f963li2g@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:30:26 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>Evasion noted!

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

[snip. dealt with already - reply to my rebuttal and please stop spamming

back the rebutted so called "evidence"]

December 12, 2007

"Merlin" <johndoe99@fastmail.fm> wrote in message

news:19a765e5-ae7d-4d50-a867-636420ead2b2@q3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

> On Dec 12, 11:30 am, "Mavisbeacon" <Mavisbea...@nospam.forme> wrote:

>

>> Are you now claiming that you NEVER claimed that in the part of Iraq

>> controlled by Saddam there NEVER WERE any groups of Islamists training or

>> being supported by Saddam or even ones he turned a blind eye to?

>

> I'm starting to think that you're perhaps insane. The tone of your

> comments is so exaggerated, that it makes you appear to be a fanatic.

When you can't actually deal with the points raised by others in relation to

issues in hand do you always resort to the losers tactic of attacking the

person making them?

>

> Yes, I can and will assert that I've NEVER, NOT ONCE, EVER said those

> words.

So then you do not believe that Saddam supported al Qaeda or any other

Islamist group or provided training to them or even turned a blind eye to

them?

If that is the case then I have no argument with you about that and I accept

your position that Saddam did not support such groups.

>

> Personally, yes, I strongly believe it VERY POSSIBLE that Saddam the

> Madman supported terrorism.

Ah1 Well then that is different! You DO believe Saddam supported terrorism.

What is YOUR definition of "terrorism" by the way?

>Note that I make no mention of Islamic

> Terrorists. His own brand of terrorism was no less sadistic nor any

> less in reality, MURDER of innocent civilians. He was PROVEN to have

> done this and prosecuted, convicted and HUNG like the TERRORIST that

> he was.

I do not think you have looked into the topic? What was he charged with, or

found guilty of for example?

What do you define as "terrorism" in the case of Saddam?

>

> As for his supporting or sponsoring Islamic terrorists within the

> COUNTRY that he was DICTATOR of, yes, he knew it was happening in the

> north and made no concerted effort to eliminate it.

This isn't true! In fact US security reports suggest he DID make an effort

to attack Islamists in the north of Iraq.

>He had the

> capability and the time to do it, he just didn't. Therefor, by NOT

> eliminating them from within the COUNTRY THAT HE CONTROLED VIA HIS

> DICTATORSHIP, he DID SUPPORT THEM.

In fact this is completly adverse to the FACTS! He made efforts to combat

Islamists! Why wouldn't he? they threathened his dictatorship! He didnt want

them at all!

>

> Now you can accurately claim that I've said that SADDAM HUSSIEN

> SUPPORTED AND ALLOWED ISLAMIC TERRORISTS TO TRAIN AND OPERATE WITHIN

> IRAQ.

Yes. You just stated

[your words]

he DID SUPPORT THEM.

[end quote]

Didn't you?

>

> Now, Motherfucker, what else do you have to say?

Well you could begin by asking me for support for my claims about Saddam

opposing Islamists and when I supply the Us security and other sources you

can admit that I have a supported position. But I don't think you will.

December 12, 2007

"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

news:f360m31auoqmmpq6q13crt2qupkh4p1sd5@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:59:58 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>So show me three claims

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>

> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

Already dealt with

1. Not in an area of Iraq controlled by Saddam.

2. Saddam nevertheless tried to combat them

> Intelligence officers in the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq told

See? "autonomous region"

> the Guardian that the Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam) group is

> harbouring up to 150 al-Qaida members in a string of villages it

> controls along the Iraq-Iran border.

Yes . In non Sadam controlled Iraq.

>

> Most of them fled Afghanistan after the US-led offensive, but

> officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), which controls

> part of north-east Iraq, claim an "abnormal" number of recruits are

> making their way to the area from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. "They are

> being trained for terrorist operations within the Kurdish region and

> beyond, possibly Europe," one said

Yes but NOT by Saddam!

>

> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

>

> TERROR TO GO

> Zarqawi's own movements are themselves telling. After being wounded in

> the leg in Afghanistan, Zarqawi escaped to Iran. While there, he

> dispatched two Palestinians and a Jordanian who entered Turkey

> illegally from Iran on their way to conduct bombing attacks in Israel.

> The three, members of Beyyiat el-Imam (a group linked to al Qaeda) who

> fought for the Taliban and received terrorist training in Afghanistan,

> were intercepted and arrested by Turkish police on February 15, 2002.

Already dealt with dubious accounts of Turkish intel but where are the links

to saddam?

>

> From Iran Zarqawi traveled to Iraq in May 2002, where his wounded leg

> was amputated and the limb fitted with a prosthetic device.

This just isnt supported by the facts! I have posted long tracts from

several sources rebutting this.

>He spent

> two months recovering in Baghdad, at which time "nearly two dozen

> extremists converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations

> there." Powell informed that "these Al Qaida affiliates, based in

> Baghdad, now coordinate the movement of people, money and supplies

> into and throughout Iraq for his network, and they've now been

> operating freely in the capital for more than eight months."

It isnt supported . I posted the rebuttal and you got it from a cut and

paste from one of your biased websites didnt you?

>

> http://www.cfr.org/publication/9513/

Okay! This is the FIRST decent source you produced. Fair play to you for

finding and producing some proper research.

http://www.cfr.org/thinktank/experts.html?groupby=1&page=1

it sems balanced

>

> Has Iraq sponsored terrorism?

> Yes. Saddam Hussein's dictatorship provided headquarters, operating

> bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups fighting

> the governments of neighboring Turkey and Iran, as well as to

> hard-line Palestinian groups. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam

> commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities.

> Prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the State Department listed Iraq

> as a state sponsor of terrorism.

This deals with a period in 1991. i asked about JUST BEFORE the invasion of

Iraq in 2003.

>

> What type of terrorist groups did Iraq support under Saddam Hussein?s

> regime?

> Primarily groups that could hurt Saddam's regional foes. Saddam has

> aided the Iranian dissident group Mujahedeen-e-Khalq and the Kurdistan

> Workers' Party (known by its Turkish initials, PKK), a separatist

> group fighting the Turkish government.

this isnt supporting International terror! The Us also supported opposition

groups in iran. In fact they supported them recently in Venezuala! And the

US supported Pinochet on 9/11 against the democratically elected Alende.

they also supported Suharto noriega Mabutou and ahost of other dictators.

They supported the MuJIHADeen and they even supported Saddam!

>Moreover, Iraq has hosted

> several Palestinian splinter groups that oppose peace with Israel ,

As did Saudi Arabia (pals of Bush) . But Saddam didnt do it in 2003 or 2002.

> including the mercenary Abu Nidal Organization, whose leader, Abu

> Nidal, was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002. Iraq has also

> supported the Islamist Hamas movement and reportedly channeled money

> to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

He didnt "channel money" ! He GAVE money to the widows of dead suicide

bombers. that isnt supporting terrorism!

>

> http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID={27E6CB2F-8494-4D5A-998B-AFECEBB84D54}

>

[snip]

More frontpagemag cut and paste unsupported stuff

The Prague meeting was not confirmed.

> Hayes: It's a fascinating story. Five top Czech officials are on

> record as confirming the meeting.

Really? Who?

>The Czechs have also reported to

> the CIA that al Ani authorized a financial transfer to Atta from the

> Iraqi Intelligence service to Atta.

the US security people have stated this is UNSUPPORTED! Read the reports I

gave you earlier in this thread!

December 12, 2007

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:51:07 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>[snip.