Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

December 13, 2007

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:49:42 -0800, Don Homuth

<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:36:57 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

><this@island.earth> wrote:

>

>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:16 -0800, Don Homuth

>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>

>>>eader of AaI always stoutly

>>>maintained that he had Never had any contact with ObL of any sort.

>>

>>Homu believes anything a rag head says...

>

>No one had any Actual Evidence to the contrary, did they?

So _of course_ believe the fucking Jihadist...right????

December 13, 2007

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:29:22 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

<this@island.earth> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:49:42 -0800, Don Homuth

><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>

>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:36:57 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

>><this@island.earth> wrote:

>>

>>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:16 -0800, Don Homuth

>>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>eader of AaI always stoutly

>>>>maintained that he had Never had any contact with ObL of any sort.

>>>

>>>Homu believes anything a rag head says...

>>

>>No one had any Actual Evidence to the contrary, did they?

>

>So _of course_ believe the fucking Jihadist...right????

Thus far the Actual Evidence is that he was telling the Truth.

There is No Actual Evidence to the contrary. Your predisposition

doesn't count.

December 14, 2007

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:04:38 -0800, Don Homuth

<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:29:22 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

><this@island.earth> wrote:

>

>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:49:42 -0800, Don Homuth

>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>

>>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:36:57 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

>>><this@island.earth> wrote:

>>>

>>>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:16 -0800, Don Homuth

>>>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>>>

>>>>>eader of AaI always stoutly

>>>>>maintained that he had Never had any contact with ObL of any sort.

>>>>

>>>>Homu believes anything a rag head says...

>>>

>>>No one had any Actual Evidence to the contrary, did they?

>>

>>So _of course_ believe the fucking Jihadist...right????

>

>Thus far the Actual Evidence

BULLSHIT!

GASBAG LIAR!

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:flu2m31o7rpjhrq6o2gkme0csh39nicpl9@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:20 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

[snip]

>>

>>If you searched you would note my comments on rationality in christianity

>>asd opposed to Islam but As I stated these arguments of scripture

>>supporting

>>cruelty and violence can also be made of the Bible. I give you the first

>>100

>>of a list of 871

>>

>>from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

>>

>> 1.. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice

>

> Which of these two faiths is STILL acting as if they're in the stone

> age?

>

> Eh?

>

You seem quite ignorant of the facts. Christianity or Islam did not exist in

the Stone Age! It is true that Mainstream Christianity has put the crusades

behind them.

But there are hundreds of Islamic clerics who have come out in total

Opposition to those terrorist actions which claim to be done in the name of

Islam! there are also Christian fundamentalists who cause the death of

others because of their beliefs.

The Oklahoma bomber came from a Christian background. The largest groups and

world record holders for suicide bombing area SECULAR group! In fact the

"threat" of Islamic fundamentalism is vastly over rated in my opinion!

secular groups have caused more death than all the religions in the world

combined - including the Crusades!

So neither mainstream Islam or mainstream Christianity is in the "stone age"

as far as I can see. Mind you when you effectively bomb Afghanistan back

into the Stone Age one could argue the toss on that! In any case how is

society better now then it was in the Stone Age?

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:oou2m3t44uu8s69rdnkkrb44uhuhhce86v@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:21 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>>

>>> Silence by Murder

>>> For more than 20 years, Saddam Hussein has executed perceived

>>> opponents without respect for rule of law.

>>

>>Yes. so what?

>

> That's what I'm talking about - the permissive lieberal do-nothing

> attitude.

>

you completly MISS the point. So what has being and evil dictator SuPPORTED

by the US got to do with having WMD or training camps for AL Qaeda?

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:kqu2m3poqm0jbp1in6nkvumg14umvtol7o@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:21 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>I wont rply to any more of your reposts

>

> Marvy!

>

> http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/15996.htm

>

> Iraq: A Population Silenced

> Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

> December 2002

Good this isnt a repost.

>

> Executive Summary

> In 1979, immediately upon coming to power, Saddam Hussein silenced all

> political opposition in Iraq and converted his one-party state into a

> cult of personality.

In 1979! And the US SUPPORTED him in doing this at the time!

> Over the more than 20 years since then, his

> regime has systematically executed, tortured, imprisoned, raped,

> terrorized and repressed Iraqi people.

And for at least half that time the US traded with him and sold him WMD and

shook his hand. Twenty four years ago next Thursday!

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

We KNOW that Saddam was a dictator supported by the US! So what? The

question here is why did the US INVADE iraq? where are the WMD or links to

Al Qaeda that they promised?

>Iraq is a nation rich in

> culture with a long history of intellectual and scientific

> achievement. Yet Saddam Hussein has silenced its scholars and doctors,

> as well as its women and children.

This is tyrue. And when the US invaded they quickly cordorned off and

guarded the Ministry of Oil with troops while they allowed the National

Museum across the street to be looted! Obvously they valued culture and oil

as much as Saddam!

> Iraqi dissidents are tortured, killed, or disappear in order to deter

> other Iraqi citizens from speaking out against the government or

> demanding change. A system of collective punishment tortures entire

> families or ethnic groups for the acts of one dissident. Women are

> raped and often videotaped during rape to blackmail their families.

> Citizens are publicly beheaded, and their families are required to

> display the heads of the deceased as a warning to others who might

> question the politics of this regime.

Yes. I complained back inthe 1980s about this! But the US were big palsy

walsy with Saddam then weren't they? Why are you suddenly so interested in

what you ignored then?

>Saddam Hussein was also the

> first leader to use chemical weapons against his own population,

> silencing more than 60 villages and 30,000 citizens with poisonous

> gas.

This is debatable! He certainly used it against the Iranians. But there is a

theory that Iran used WMD missiles on the Kurds to provoke them. and the

BRITISH were the first to use WMD on the Kurds! Arabia was part of the

British Empire! Please learn some history.

>

> Saddam Hussein has tried to silence ethnic and religious minorities in

> Iraq as well.

Indeed he did! Do you think it is right to scilence the Islamic

fundamentalists in the US by arresting them and moving them somewhere where

they are held without charge?

> During the Anfal Campaign of 1987-88, Saddam Hussein?s

> regime killed and tortured the Kurdish population. It eliminated many

> Kurdish villages, and forced surviving Kurds into zones where he could

> control them.

Yes and the Us didnt do anything about that did they? Or about Pinochet,

Suharto, Noriega, Marcos, Mabutu etc...

Nope actually I am WRONG! They DID do something about dictators! They

SUPPORTED them!

>His regime has suppressed the Shi?a religious community

> through killings and arrests and bans their Friday prayers and books

> in certain regions.

Indeed he did. Viscious! And he opposed the Islamic fundamentalists and

tortured and killed many of them as well! He opposed Islamists! He didnt

work with the likes of the "Mhadi Army" as the US did in Bagdadh!

>He has also targeted the citizens of other nations

> in his region, killing and torturing Kuwaiti and Iranian citizens,

> among others.

Well I assume you mean when he actually INVADED them in a war. A bit like

the US invading Iraq and then torturing people they captured? Or just

torturing them elsewhere? Oh and destroying the tapes?

>

> The Iraqi people are not allowed to vote to remove the government.

> Freedom of expression, association and movement do not exist in Iraq.

True. was this under Saddam or are you talking about nowadays?

> The media is tightly controlled ?

It is called the "Green Zone" and "embedding" is it?

>Saddam Hussein?s son owns the daily

> Iraqi newspaper. Iraqi citizens cannot assemble except in support of

> the government. Iraqi citizens cannot freely leave Iraq.

And that is different today is it?

>

> The international community, including the U.N. and

> internationally-based nongovernmental organizations, has documented

> and repeatedly condemned this regime?s horrific record of abuse.

> Saddam Hussein simply ignores the will of the rest of the world.

Which is why the UN route was the way top go and not a DIY job solo run by

the US!

[snip]

Dig up!

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:shu2m3l20l9tel0iarfdkajtafk7ben2bd@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:54:02 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>

>>"Halsey Knox" <little@faus.and> wrote in message

>>news:sun0m3lnkeg8obdt54s78n5sa229dmr5ao@4ax.com...

>>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:51:07 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>Really? Who?

>>>

>>> Milos Zeman, the Czech Republic's prime minister.

>>>

>>> http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-48105037.html

>>>

>>[snip]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3909150/

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Colin Powell reversed a year of

administration policy, acknowledging Thursday that he had seen no "smoking

gun [or] concrete evidence" of ties between former Iraqi President Saddam

Hussein and al-Qaida.

>

> Czech Republic Prime Minister Milos Zeman tours the site of the World

> Trade Center disaster in New York, Friday, Nov. 9, 2001. (AP

> Photo/Doug Kanter, Pool)

>

> WASHINGTON (AP) _ Suspected terrorist Mohammed Atta contacted an Iraqi

> agent to discuss an attack on the Radio Free Europe building in

> Prague, just prior to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United

> States, Czech Prime Minister Milos Zeman said.

>

> Zeman said Friday that Atta twice had met the Iraqi agent, Ahmad

> Khalil Ibrahim Samir Al-Ani,

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

REad pages 94-98

April 8, 2001

An informant for the BIS, the Czech intelligence agency, reportedly sees

Iraqi diplomat Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani meeting in a restaurant

outside Prague with an Arab man in his 20s. This draws concern from the

intelligence community because the informant suggests the person is "a

visiting 'student' from Hamburg-and. potentially dangerous." [New York

Times, 11/19/2003 Sources: Jan Kavan] The young man is never positively

identified or seen again. Fearing that al-Ani may have been attempting to

recruit the young man for a mission to blow-up Radio Free Europe

headquarters, the diplomat is told to leave the country on April 18. [New

York Times, 10/27/2001; United Press International, 10/20/2002; New York

Times, 11/19/2003 Sources: Unnamed US officials, Jan Kavan] Information

about the incident is passed on to US intelligence. After the 9/11 attacks

and after it is reported on the news that Atta had likely visited Prague,

the BIS informant will say the young man at the restaurant was Atta. (see

September 14, 2001) This information leads hawks to come up with the

so-called "Prague Connection" theory, which will hold that 9/11 plotter

Mohomed Atta flew to Prague on April 8, met with al-Ani to discuss the

planning and financing of the 9/11 attacks, and returned to the US on either

April 9 or 10. [New York Times, 10/27/2001; United Press International,

10/20/2002; New York Times, 11/19/2003 Sources: Unnamed US officials,

Unnamed BIS informant, Jan Kavan] The theory will be widely discounted by

October 2002. [New York Times, 10/21/2002 Sources: Unnamed US officials,

Unnamed BIS informant]

Sept 14, 2001

The CIA intelligence liaison in Prague is told by the Czech intelligence

agency (BIS) that one of its informants in the local Prague Arab community

believes the Hamburg "student" he had seen meeting with Iraqi diplomat Ahmed

Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani on April 8, 2001 in a restaurant outside of

Prague was 9/11 plotter Mohamed Atta. (see April 8, 2001) Czech intelligence

treats the claim skeptically because it comes only after Atta's picture has

been broadcast on television and after the Czech press reported that records

showed Atta had traveled to Prague. FBI agents go to the Czech Republic and

are given full access to Czech intelligence material. This information leads

hawks to come up with the so-called "Prague Connection" theory, which holds

that 9/11 plotter Mohamed Atta flew to Prague on April 8, met with al-Ani to

discuss the planning and financing of the 9/11 attacks, and returned to the

US on either April 9 or 10. The theory will be widely debated but generally

discounted by the end of 2004. [New York Times, 10/21/2002; New York Times,

11/19/2003 Sources: Jan Kavan]

The Atta Prague meeting was unconfirmed and blown out of proportion.

A Saudi company called the Twaik Group deposits more than $250,000 in bank

accounts controlled by Mamoun Darkazanli, a Syrian-born businessman

suspected of belonging to the Hamburg, Germany, al-Qaeda cell that Mohamed

Atta is also a part of. In 2004, the Chicago Tribune will reveal evidence

that German intelligence has concluded that Twaik, a $100 million-a-year

conglomerate, serves as a front for the Saudi Arabian intelligence agency.

It has ties to that agency's longtime chief, Prince Turki al-Faisal. Before

9/11, at least two of Twaik's managers are suspected by various countries'

intelligence agencies of working for al-Qaeda. One Twaik employee, who is

later accused of helping to finance the financing of the 2003 Bali bombing

( October 12, 2002), repeatedly flies on aircraft operated by Saudi

intelligence. In roughly the same time period, hundreds of thousands of

additional dollars are deposited into Darkazanli's accounts from a variety

of suspicious entities, including a Swiss bank owned by Middle Eastern

interests with links to terrorism and a radical Berlin imam. Darkazanli is

later accused not just of financially helping the Hamburg 9/11 hijackers,

but also of helping to choose them for al-Qaeda. [Chicago Tribune,

10/12/2003; Chicago Tribune, 3/31/2004]

What are the US doing about their Saudi Pals?

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:9ka3m3d1se19hieathqp6dgfcgl4t6ugiu@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:49:42 -0800, Don Homuth

> <dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>

>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:36:57 GMT, Prof. Cal Meacham

>><this@island.earth> wrote:

>>

>>>On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:16 -0800, Don Homuth

>>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>eader of AaI always stoutly

>>>>maintained that he had Never had any contact with ObL of any sort.

>>>

>>>Homu believes anything a rag head says...

>>

>>No one had any Actual Evidence to the contrary, did they?

>

> So _of course_ believe the fucking Jihadist...right????

Nope! Look up the fallacies of "shifting the burden" and "proving a

negative". In fact under the US justice system you ASSUME someone is

innocent and you have to PROVE guilt with evidence! Whether you believe the

Jihadists or not you have to assume they are correct and you have to PROVE

they are lying! You haven't provided the evidence. where is it?

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:ubu2m31fikqmrjh1tlj8q91lrgfvusee5t@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:53:59 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>

>>"droll yankee" <stur@bridge.ma> wrote in message

>>news:s360m3h34tokokcmprv04rgc9a4r3ppna6@4ax.com...

>>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:59:58 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>NOT

>>>

>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

>>>

>>> A radical armed Islamist group with ties to Tehran and Baghdad has

>>> helped al-Qaida establish an international terrorist training camp in

>>> northern Iraq, Kurdish officials say.

>>

>>NOT in Saddam controlled Iraq! OPPOSED by Saddam.

>

> Yawn...allowed to operate by Sod-em.

Yawn... Attacked by Saddam but OUTSIDE his control.

In a region where the Kurds or the US could have attacked them! Your OWN

SOURCE even says the region was autonomous!

December 14, 2007

"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

news:rcu2m3pdnvnuue6h0mc2uotiidlgrbrh9u@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:54:00 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>NOT in Saddam controlled Iraq! OPPOSED by Saddam.

>

> Yawn...allowed to operate by Sod-em.

No I proffered you the CIA report on it! They say that Saddam didn't even

turn a blind eye but actively OPPOSED them!

The Us however while within striking distance DIDN'T attack this group? Why

not?

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:33:56 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

>news:flu2m31o7rpjhrq6o2gkme0csh39nicpl9@4ax.com...

>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:20 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>[snip]

>>>

>>>If you searched you would note my comments on rationality in christianity

>>>asd opposed to Islam but As I stated these arguments of scripture

>>>supporting

>>>cruelty and violence can also be made of the Bible. I give you the first

>>>100

>>>of a list of 871

>>>

>>>from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

>>>

>>> 1.. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice

>>

>> Which of these two faiths is STILL acting as if they're in the stone

>> age?

>>

>> Eh?

>>

>You seem quite ignorant of the facts.

http://contenderministries.org/islam/womeninquran.php

What does the Q'uran say about Women

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women have fewer rights concerning divorce (2:28) - "Divorced women

shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it

lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if

they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have

the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for

reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights

against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree

over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise,"

Muslim men may marry up to four women (4:3) - "If ye fear that ye

shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your

choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able

to deal justly, then only one, or a captive that your rights hands

possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing

injustice,"

A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females (4:11) - "Allah

directs you as regards your Children's inheritance: to the male, a

portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more,

their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share

is a half,"

It is acceptable to beat women (4:34) - "Men are the protectors and

maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength

than the other, and because they support them from their means.

Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the

husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women

on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them first,

then refuse to share their beds, and last beat them lightly; but if

they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance:

For Allah is Most High, great above you all."

Beautiful virgins await Muslim men in Paradise for their sensual

gratification - (55:56) "In them will be Maidens, chaste, restraining

their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched."

(56:35-38) "We have created their companions of special creation. And

made them virgin pure and undefiled, - Beloved by nature, equal in

age, - For the Companions of the Right Hand," (78:31-33) "Verily for

the Righteous there will be a fulfillment of the heart's desires;

Gardens enclosed, and grapevines, and voluptuous women of equal age,"

In the Hadith Muhammad said more women were in hell than men and that

women lacked intelligence (Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794)

"Once Allah's Apostle went out to eh Musalla (to offer the prayer) o

'Id-al-adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said,

"O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers

of Hell-fire were you women." they asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's

Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to

your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence

and religion than you. a cautious sensible man could be led astray by

some of you." the women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient

in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of

two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the

affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence.

Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her

menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the

deficiency in her religion."

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:33:56 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

>news:oou2m3t44uu8s69rdnkkrb44uhuhhce86v@4ax.com...

>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:21 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>>>

>>>> Silence by Murder

>>>> For more than 20 years, Saddam Hussein has executed perceived

>>>> opponents without respect for rule of law.

>>>

>>>Yes. so what?

>>

>> That's what I'm talking about - the permissive lieberal do-nothing

>> attitude.

>>

>

>you completly MISS the point.

http://www.contenderministries.org/islam/naskh.php

?Islam is a religion of peace.? That has been the motto repeated

frequently by politicians, the media, and Islamic organizations on a

frequent basis lately. Since the terrorist attacks of September 11,

2001, many have tried to distance the peace-loving Muslims from those

who commit terror by claiming that Islam really is a peaceful

religion, and it has been ?hijacked? by extremists who do not practice

the true, peaceful teachings of the Qur?an. But what is the truth?

Is Islam really a religion of peace? What about all those verses in

the Qur?an that speak of love and peace? In this article ? which will

be a religious study rather than political ? we?ll examine what the

Qur?an says about love, peace, war, and jihad, and how these

reconcile.

We?ve received many emails from Muslims. While some have been

vitriolic and even threatening, the majority of the emails have been,

at the very least, respectful and courteous. These earnest and

sincere Muslims point out that the Qur?an directs Muslims to be

respectful toward ?people of the Book? (Christians and Jews). They?ll

point out that the Qur?an teaches that there is no compulsion in

Islam, and true Muslims are to act with love and respect for mankind.

They claim that Islamic terrorists have twisted the Qur?an to justify

their evil acts. They provide many examples from the Qur?an to back

their claims. Surah 2:62 says, ?Verily! Those who believe and those

who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah

and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward

with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.?

Surah 2:256 says that there is no compulsion in religion. Indeed,

there are at least 114 verses in the Qur?an that speak of love, peace,

or forgiveness.

Where then, is the justification for waging jihad? What motivated the

nineteen terrorists on 9/11? What inspires the homicide bombers

around the world? Well, the answer to that is also found in the

Qur?an, as well as the Hadiths (the recorded teachings of Muhammad).

While at least 114 verses speak of love or peace, sixty percent of the

Qur?an deals in some fashion with jihad! Surah 9:5 says, ?Then when

the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrik?n (those who join

gods with God) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege

them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent

and perform As-Sal?t (prayers), and give Zak?t (alms), then leave

their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.? This

seems to contradict the verse that speaks of no religious compulsion

in Islam.

When the Qur?an speaks of ?those who join gods with God,? it refers to

the polytheists. To Muslims, this includes Christians who believe in

the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity eludes most Muslims, who

believe that Christians worship three separate gods, rather that one

triune God. Moreover, because of the reverence paid to Mary by many

of those in the Middle East that Muslims know as Christians, most

Muslims (Muhammad included) think the Trinity refers to God the

Father, Jesus, and Mary. So any time the Qur?an refers to

polytheists, or ?those who join gods with God,? it is referring to

Christians as well.

Surah 4:89 tells Muslims to not take Christians, Jews, or pagans as

friends, and also orders the murder of those who depart from Islam:

?They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and

thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliy?'

(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of

Allah. But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and

kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliy?' (protectors

or friends) nor helpers from them.? Surah 9:123 says, ?O you who

believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let

them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who are

the Al-Muttaq?n (the pious).? The list goes on:

?And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and

polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion

(worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But

if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly,

Allah is All-Seer of what they do.? 8:39

?It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and

free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his

enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the

money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you)

the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.? 8:67

?Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last

Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His

Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth

(i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),

until they pay the Jizyah (tax) with willing submission, and feel

themselves subdued.? 9:29

If I went on to cite all such verses from the Qur?an, this article

would be almost as long as the Qur?an. And that doesn?t even include

the extra-Qur?anic teachings of Muhammad that are recorded in the

Hadiths. So the question arises, how does one reconcile the verses

that command Muslims to wage jihad against infidels with the verses

that speak of love, peace, and forgiveness? How do we reconcile the

teaching that there is no compulsion of religion in Islam, with the

teaching that those who leave Islam must be killed, and Christians and

Jews may escape death if they convert to Islam or pay the Jisyah?

The answer to those questions is the principle of naskh. In his book

Islam and Terrorism, Dr. Mark Gabriel described naskh in this way,

?Naskh is based on the fact that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad at

different times over a period of about twenty-two years. Some parts

of the Quran came later, and some parts came earlier. To solve a

contradiction, they [islamic scholars] decided that new revelations

would override (nasikh) previous revelations.?[1] The disparity

between the earlier writings of Muhammad and the later writings which

took precedence can be understood by a brief examination of Muhammad?s

life at that time.

Muhammad began writing the Qur?an when he was living in Mecca. At

that time, his followers were a small minority there. Muhammad

committed himself to peaceful activities such as prayer, writing, and

fasting. His new doctrine of Islam was spreading slowly at that time,

and wasn?t very popular with the local populace. As a result, his

Qur?anic writing put a kind, peaceful, and non-threatening face to

Islam. Muhammad spent several years in Mecca, but began to suffer

persecution at the hands of his tribe. The Quraysh tribe was the

largest tribe in the area, and its leaders were unhappy that many in

the tribe were departing from idol worship and adhering to this new

religion Muhammad had started. After failing to silence Muhammad with

bribes, they persecuted him (even attempting to kill him), and

ultimately caused him to flee Mecca. Muhammad settled in the area of

Medina, known in that day as Yathrib.

In Medina, Muhammad faced less resistance, and his band of followers

grew in number. As his following swelled, his tone of peaceful

co-existence began to change to one of preparation. He was not simply

enlarging a body of religious converts; he was raising an army. He

had not forgotten Mecca or the Quraysh tribe, and he had plans for

them. His followers multiplied to a number that was at first,

influential. Then they surpassed merely influential and became

dominant. Muhammad had his army. His writings shifted from

preparation to jihad. He would now increase his following by

conquest. The sword replaced the pen as his means for proselytizing.

His army waged war on the ?unbelievers,? and Muhammad personally led

the charge in dozens of battles. His revelations on jihad became

bolder and more specific, and his religion became political as he

sought to make the Arabian lands submit to Islam.

With that history in mind, it is easier to understand that the

portions of the Qur?an Muhammad wrote in Mecca have more of a ?let?s

get along? ring to them. The portions he wrote in Medina, especially

after he began his conquests, spoke more of forced conversion and

spreading Islam through conquest (wars of jihad). Using the principle

of naskh, these later writings supercede any contradictory statements

written earlier.

Does the Qur?an speak of a religion of peace, love, and forgiveness?

It certainly does. Does the Qur?an also speak of jihad and conquest

against non-Muslims? Yes, this is also true. The mujahadeen (those

who wage jihad) are those who correctly understand the principle of

naskh, and practice the doctrine of jihad against the infidels. They

have not hijacked Islam. They practice the fundamental teachings of

their prophet.

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:33:57 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>"Prof. Cal Meacham" <this@island.earth> wrote in message

>news:kqu2m3poqm0jbp1in6nkvumg14umvtol7o@4ax.com...

>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:23:21 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

>> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>>

>>>I wont rply to any more of your reposts

>>

>> Marvy!

>>

>> http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/15996.htm

>>

>> Iraq: A Population Silenced

>> Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

>> December 2002

>

>Good this isnt a repost.

>

The International Community Speaks Out Against Saddam Hussein

Since 1945, the United Nations and regional organizations have come

together to create a world where fundamental freedoms and human

dignity are respected. For the past 20 years, Iraq has moved in the

opposite direction. International law forbids torture, murder and the

infliction of cruel, inhuman or degrading punishment; yet Saddam

Hussein has created a system flagrantly violating these international

laws and parading abuses in front of the world community. Over the

past 20 years, his attacks on the Iraqi people have been persistently

recorded and denounced by the international community.

The United Nations Security Council "condemns the attempts by Iraq to

alter the demographic composition of the population of Kuwait. . . ."

? UN Security Council Resolution 677 of 28 November 1990

The United Nations Security Council "condemns the repression of the

Iraqi civilian population in many parts of Iraq . . . " ? UN Security

Council Resolution 688 of 5 April 1991

After his 1999 trip to Iraq, Max Van Der Stoel, UN Special Rapporteur

of the Commission on Human Rights in Iraq reported the following to

the Chairperson of the Commission on Human Rights:

"I received their testimonies, ranging from individuals who showed me

their scars and wounds from torture to the hundreds of Kurdish women

who held up their fingers indicating the numbers of family members who

had been taken by the Iraqi authorities and subsequently disappeared"

..

"the prevailing regime of systematic human rights violations is

contrary to Iraq?s many international obligations . . . ." ? UN

Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights in Iraq, 1999

"Saddam Hussein remains a threat to stability in the Middle East . . .

..He is still pursuing total control over the people of Iraq and is

ready to engage in systematic repression. . . ." ? Prime Minister of

Great Britain, Tony Blair, 17 February 2001

"The mere suggestion that someone is not a supporter of the President

carries the prospect of the death penalty." ? Andreas Mavrommatis,

U.N. Special Rapporteur, U.N. Secretary General?s Report , 2001

U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 of November 8, 2002, gives Iraq

another chance:

"I urge the Iraqi leadership . . . to seize this opportunity and

thereby begin to end the isolation and suffering of the Iraqi people."

? U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, November 8, 2002

The international community stands behind the people of Iraq. Despite

Saddam Hussein?s many attempts to silence the Iraqi people, their

voices and stories are being heard.

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:33:57 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/15996.htm

Women Silenced:

Saddam Hussein Acknowledges Violent Crimes Against Women

Saddam does not deny the fact that his regime tortures and brutally

murders women. The daily newspaper "Babel" owned by Uday, the eldest

son of Saddam Hussein, contained a public admission on February 13,

2001of beheading women who are suspected of prostitution. The Iraqi

Women?s League in Damascus, Syria describes this practice as follows:

"Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of ?Feda?iyee

Saddam?, the paramilitary organization led by Uday, have beheaded in

public more than two hundred women all over the country, dumping their

severed heads at their families door steps. Many of the victims were

innocent professional women, including some who were suspected of

being dissidents. Such barbaric acts were carried out in the total

absence of any proper judicial procedures, even under Iraq?s own Penal

Code." (March 3, 2001).

In Iraq, if you are a woman, you could face....

Beheading if you are accused of prostitution

Rape, if you are related to someone the regime thinks is disloyal

Torture, if you are related to a dissident

Reports show that many families have been required to display a

victim?s head on their outside fence for several days. These savage

practices have been used against women of all professions. For

example, an obstetrician was arrested for criticizing the corruption

within the health services, but was subsequently beheaded for

prostitution. Another woman with a husband and three children was

beheaded without charge or trial. According to Amnesty International,

her husband was wanted by the security authorities because of his

alleged involvement in Islamist armed activities against the state. He

managed to flee the country, but men belonging to Feda?iyye Saddam

(the paramilitary unit) went to his house and found his wife,

children, and mother-in-law. His wife was taken to the street and two

men held her by the arms while a third pulled her head from behind and

beheaded her in front of residents. The security men took the body and

the head in a plastic bag and took away the children and the

mother-in-law. Their fate remains unknown.

Women are often raped in order to blackmail their relatives. Men who

leave Iraq and join Iraqi opposition groups regularly receive

videotapes showing the rape of a female relative. These tapes are

intended to discourage Iraqi nationals abroad from engaging in

opposition activities. As shown below, some authorities carry

personnel cards identifying their official "activity" as the

"violation of women?s honor."

Statement made by Nidal Muhyi al-Shaikh Shallal, the wife of Shaikh

Shallal Muhammed al-Shallal, tribal chief of the Grai'at Jibour on

October 4, 2002

? My brother was arrested in 1980. Since then, we have no idea what

happened to him. The regime sent us a statement of his death in order

to provoke us. My husband?s brothers, who are also my cousins, were

executed. They were Martyr Ra?ad Shallal Muhammed al?Shallal and

Martyr Wa?d-Allah Muhammed al-Shallal. After that, our possessions

were confiscated and we were expelled from our lands. Till now, one of

our orchards has been turned into a secret factory for making chemical

weapons. It is located in Grai?at (a suburb of Azamiyya in northern

Iraq).

I was interrogated many times. It was then that my husband fled away

and went into hiding. Then I was expelled from my government job.

Many attempts were undertaken to have my husband arrested because of

his dissent. His brothers were executed. In 1991, he participated in

the Intifada (uprising), but he was captured and jailed for four

months at the prison run by the Iraqi Military Intelligence. His left

rib and nose were fractured as he was being tortured, and he was

exposed to several electric shocks the marks of which are still

visible on his body.

Our tribe, the Jibour tribe, has been subjected to almost total

extinction. Al-Grai'at (branch of the Jibour tribe) is famous for its

struggle against the Iraqi regime. As many as 882(eight hundred and

eighty-two) men from among my relatives and tribal members have been

arrested and their fate is unknown. The daughters of my uncle, namely

Layla al-Jibouri, Fatima al-Jibouri, Tarfa al-Jibouri and Safa

al-Jibouri, have all been executed.

Government Betrays Children's Welfare

Saddam has no regard for the health and welfare of the children of

Iraq. Since the Gulf War alone, Saddam Hussein has built 48 lavish

palaces for himself. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical supplies intended for

sick children are being exported for resale overseas. Medicine and

medical supplies that are desperately needed by children are

frequently delayed because regime members demand bribes from

suppliers. The lack of healthcare in Iraq has led to the reemergence

of diseases that had been exterminated years ago, including cholera

and polio.

In addition, the regime takes minority children hostage to force their

families to relocate, thereby increasing the Sunni Arab majority in

particular regions. They also force children between the ages of 10

and 15 to attend 3-week training courses in weapons? use, hand-to-hand

fighting, rappelling from helicopters, and infantry tactics. These

children endure 14 hours of physical training and psychological

pressure each day. Families that do not want their children to attend

this rigorous training course are threatened with the loss of their

food ration cards.

[M]illions of innocent people in Iraq are suffering. Their daily life

has been significantly disrupted with respect to the distribution and

quality of food, pharmaceuticals and sanitation supplies, as well as

the lack of clean drinking water. All of these elements have severely

interfered with the functioning of basic health and education systems

and have undermined the right to work.

-- 1999 Report by the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights

situation in Iraq

In Saddam's Iraq, if you are a child, you could face....

Inadequate nutrition or medicine because the Saddam limits imports and

distributes much of those to his friends and allies

Abduction, if you are a non-Arab living in an oil-producing area

Having to report what your parents say about the regime

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:39:46 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>Nope! Look up the fallacies of "shifting the burden"

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/15996.htm

The Silent Voice of Iraqi Voters

As the world community increasingly embraces individual liberties,

pluralism and representative government, Iraqi citizens do not have

the right to change their government. Saddam Hussein has silenced the

political opposition and has not held true elections since his rise to

power in 1979. The Iraqi Constitution also provides for freedom of

association. However, Iraqi law makes past, present and future

associations with parties other than the Ba?th party punishable by

death. He relies on his 1995 and 2002 un-democratic "referenda" to

legitimize his presidency. In the most recent referendum,

"confidential ballots" were marked with a number so that the

government could identify the voter. There was only one name on the

ballot: "Saddam Hussein ? Yes or No." Citizens understood the

consequences of becoming one of Saddam Hussein?s "enemies." He claimed

a remarkable 100 percent victory, an increase over the 99.96% result

in 1995.

The Ba'th Arab Socialist Party

One Arab Nation With An Eternal Message

-Decree of the Revolutionary Command Council-

Punishable by execution:

1- Any member of the Ba'th Arab Socialist Party who purposely conceals

his previous political and party affiliations, and commitments.

2- Any current or former member of the Party who, under proof, is

found to be linked during his membership to any other party or

political [group] or of working for them and their interests.

3- Any current or former member of the Party who joined another party

or political [group] or worked for them and their interests after

terminating his relations with the Party.

I, Majid Arshad Mahmud, have been apprised of the Revolutionary

Command Council's decree, and will be responsible before the law in

the event that I violate the decree's provisions. Accordingly, I

signed.

Name: Majid Arshad Mahmud

Residential Address: Irbil, al-'Arab

Work Address: Employee/Irbil hospital

Date:11 Jan 1979

[signature]

Confirm veracity of signature by a cell.

Confirm veracity of signature by the command of a division.

[signature]

Stamp of the Division

Independent Thought or Beliefs are Silenced

Through history, Iraqi scholars have contributed to the development of

political thought. Today, however, there is no political debate nor

are there even articles in Iraqi newspapers that question the

government. Those who have tried are now in exile or dead.

In September 1999, Hashem Hasan, a noted journalist and Baghdad

University Professor, was arrested after he declined an appointment as

editor of one of Uday Hussein?s government-controlled publications.

His fate is unknown. Press freedom is nonexistent because the

government controls the media. Although the Iraqi Constitution

provides for freedom of assembly, citizens of Iraq are not permitted

to assemble for any purpose other than to express support for the

Government. They are also not permitted to leave Iraq and travel like

citizens living in free countries. Specific government authorization,

expensive exit visas, and a requirement that the government must be

paid collateral in order to travel are all examples of how Saddam

Hussein holds Iraqi citizens hostage in a country many want to leave.

Professors and journalists who are allowed to leave the country are

interrogated upon their return to ensure that they are still "loyal"

to the Iraqi government. In Saddam's Iraq, if you are an Iraqi who is

Chaldean Christian, Turkmen or other ethnic minority, or if you are a

member of the Shi'a majority, you could face...

Forced relocation if you live in an area the regime wants to control

or clear

Prohibitions on your religious study and practice

Prohibitions on the study of your language, such as Syriac, and its

use in religious practice

No protection from mob violence

Discrimination in school, work and government

December 14, 2007

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:39:46 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>No