Holocaust Denial, American Style 29 Nov 2007

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:08:36 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:48:08 -0800, Don Homuth

><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>

>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:40:44 GMT, Sir Sam <nite@cru.sade> wrote:

>>

>>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth

>>><dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>>>

>>>>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>

>>>>wrote:

>>>>

>>>>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>

>>>>>mumbled:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam

>>>>>

>>>>>Oh?

>>>>>

>>>>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp

>>>>>

>>>>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it

>>>>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,

>>>>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.

>>>>

>>>>Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.

>>>

>>>Gee..."confirmed" as opposed to leaked, who knew???

>>

>>What the CIA got from its paid informers

>

>What has been leaked and comprises FACTUAL data!

The leak is surely a Fact. Leaks always are.

The "data" however are Not confirmed.

The purpose of the Leak was to hide that Fact.

December 4, 2007

"Sir Sam" <nite@cru.sade> wrote in message

news:8bval3hpr9qr296ibobtt8ih7duhnr2af5@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:52:36 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

> <Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>>al quad were NOT in any way prevalent in Iraq under

>>Saddam

>

> LIAR!

>

> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp

>

> The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it

> finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,

> met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.

Okay thats cliam 1 . Iraqw were working with Zawahiri (which is NOTHINg to

do with Al Quaeda being established in Iraq but Ill deal with the issue

anyway)

I will number the rest. and dela with them below

Why do people keep repeating this old debunked claim? LOL The Weekly

Standard! Well at least you supply a source. Ill deal with the lot below.

>More

> disturbing, according to an administration official familiar with

> briefings the CIA has given President Bush, the Agency has

> "irrefutable evidence" that the Iraqi regime paid Zawahiri $300,000 in >

> 1998, around the time his Islamic Jihad was merging with al Qaeda.

2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k

What "evidence" where is it?

>

> Iraqi defectors had been saying for years that Saddam's regime

> trained "non-Iraqi Arab terrorists" at a camp in Salman Pak, south of

> Baghdad. U.N. inspectors had confirmed the camp's existence, including

> the presence of a Boeing 707.

3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors

confiormed this!

Rubbish! Where did UN inspectors say any such thing?

>Defectors say the plane was used to

> train hijackers;

WHat DEFECTORS SAID THAT? LOL curveball?

[snip - same claim Salman Pak and terrorism training]

>

> On February 13, 2003, the government of the Philippines asked Hisham

> al Hussein, the second secretary of the Iraqi embassy in Manila, to

> leave the country. According to telephone records obtained by

> Philippine intelligence, Hussein had been in frequent contact with two

> leaders of Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate in South Asia,

> immediately before and immediately after they detonated a bomb in

> Zamboanga City.

4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut

happened.

>

> According to a report in the Christian Science Monitor, an Abu Sayyaf

> leader who planned the attack bragged on television a month after the

> bombing that Iraq had contacted him about conducting joint operations.

Where is the evidence for this?

> Philippine intelligence officials were initially skeptical of his

> boasting, but after finding the telephone records they believed him.

>

> No fewer than five high-ranking Czech officials have publicly

> confirmed that Mohammed Atta, the lead September 11 hijacker, met with

> Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence officer working at

> the Iraqi embassy, in Prague five months before the hijacking.

5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

LOL you must keep up to speed . what have you read in the last four years.

Right wing spin? This has been soundly debunked

>Media

> leaks here and in the Czech Republic have called into question whether

> Atta was in Prague on the key dates--between April 4 and April 11,

> 2001. And several high-ranking administration officials are "agnostic"

> as to whether the meeting took place. Still, the public position of

> the Czech government to this day is that it did.

>

> That assertion should be seen in the context of Atta's curious

> stop-off in Prague the previous spring, as he traveled to the United

> States. Atta flew to Prague from Germany on May 30, 2000, but did not

> have a valid visa and was denied entry. He returned to Germany,

> obtained the proper paperwork, and took a bus back to Prague. One day

> later, he left for the United States.

So what correlation is not causality. But let me now deal with you

allegations.

1 . Iraq were working with Zawahir

2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k

3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors

confiormed this!

4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut

happened.

5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

I have dealt with these already in that particular thread and in

soc.culture.iraq ovwer the last months MANY TIMES.

I will here add additional evidence on his topic. [Marker Iraq Links to Al

Quaeda evidence report]:

In 2003 Jan 26 on page 11 of a Report entitled "CIA: Iraqi support for

Terrorism" (which you can find referred to - ref 160- on page 64 of the

following reference) "Saddam Hussain and Uasama Bin Liden are far from

being natural partners"

I use an official report to the US congress

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

For the Iraq intel links you will note that have gone through 30 million

pages of Iraqi documents!

On page 65-66 you will note that GEORGE TENET (know him? The HEAD of CIA)

stated there is no confirmation of links to al quaeda!

It goes on about the lack of links and no supstantial proof of such links.

On page 71 you will note the Answer Al Islam (Zawharis group) is mentioned

as being linked to al Quaeda but NOT to Iraqi authorities!

They then go through links to al quaeda and planning operations withthem.

NOWHERE is any Philipnes attack mentioned.

Ther is one document in the whole 30 million which mentions people meeting

Al Quaeda and leavinf the door open for the POSSIBILITY of working together

(not actually working with them like the US did with the MuJIHADeen) -

bottom of page 73 where you note Bin Laden called Saddam an "unbeliever".

You may also have read the actual transcripts of Bin Ladens videos from the

cave in which he decries Saddam?

Skip on to page 82 for information on Salman Pak. On page 83 you will note

the OFFICIAL US POSITION of NO TRAINING of terrorists at Salman Pak after

1991!

On poage 84 the DIA states NO LINKS between Al Quaeda and Salman Pak!

Actually on page 85 you will note that far from training for terrorism it

was for training for COUNTER TERRORISM! In fact why would terrorists need to

train outdoors using an airplane? all they would need is a mockup of the

INSIDE of the Airplane! It is the COUNTER terrorists who want to take

control of the Airplane from the terrorists who need an Airplane to train

on?

On page 88 note the reference to Iraq not controlling the Kiurdis North and

that Al Zakawi'sd Anser Al Islam group operated there!

from 88-page 93 you will note that Iraq viewed Anser Al islam and Al Zawhari

as t THREAT and not as an Ally!

On page 94 they nmove on to the Prague meeting.

By the end of page 96 - reference 264 you will note that the US intelligence

service authotities are "Skeptical" whether Atta travelled to Prague!

The real meat however comes from page 105 - conclusions:

Conclusion 1: Saddam distrusted Al quaeda and refused ALL requests to work

with them!

2. There was ONE meeting between Saddams regime and Al Quaeda. There were

possibly two more where the Al Quaeda were rebuffed by Saddam.

3. No links on chemical and bio weapons

4. NO training by Saddams regime of Al Quaeda at Salman Pak OR ANYWHERE ELSE

in Iraq!

5. Saddam tried but failed to capture Zawahi and Anser al Islam. He did not

harbour them or co operate with them or even turn a blind eye to them!

6. Anser al Islan operated since 1991 in Kurdish controlled Northern Iraq

outside of Saddams reach.

7. No involvement in Sept 11 attacks.

8. No intention to work with terrorrists

That gets yo to page 111.

THAT IS THE WORD fromn CIA DIA FBI and NSA and Homeland Security based on

what they now know!

December 4, 2007

"Sir Sam" <nite@cru.sade> wrote in message

news:d40bl3tst3gnqec23tc4mafr7k7tud70ro@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:31 -0800, Don Homuth

> <dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>

[snip]

WE know about the Feith Memo being a mockup. but

let me now deal with your allegations.

1 . Iraq were working with Zawahir

2. Iraq paid Al Zawhari 300k

3. Salman Pak was a terrorist training camp and that UN inspectors

confiormed this!

4. Iraq was involved in or aware of a Phillipnes attack befiore iut

happened.

5. The Prague meeting Alleged links between Atta and Iraq!

I have dealt with these already in that particular thread and in

soc.culture.iraq over the last months MANY TIMES.

I will here add additional evidence on his topic. [Marker Iraq Links to Al

Quaeda evidence report]:

In 2003 Jan 26 on page 11 of a Report entitled "CIA: Iraqi support for

Terrorism" (which you can find referred to - ref 160- on page 64 of the

following reference) "Saddam Hussain and Uasama Bin Liden are far from

being natural partners"

I use an official report to the US congress

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

For the Iraq intel links you will note that have gone through 30 million

pages of Iraqi documents!

On page 65-66 you will note that GEORGE TENET (know him? The HEAD of CIA)

stated there is no confirmation of links to al quaeda!

It goes on about the lack of links and no supstantial proof of such links.

On page 71 you will note the Answer Al Islam (Zawharis group) is mentioned

as being linked to al Quaeda but NOT to Iraqi authorities!

They then go through links to al quaeda and planning operations withthem.

NOWHERE is any Philipnes attack mentioned.

Ther is one document in the whole 30 million which mentions people meeting

Al Quaeda and leavinf the door open for the POSSIBILITY of working together

(not actually working with them like the US did with the MuJIHADeen) -

bottom of page 73 where you note Bin Laden called Saddam an "unbeliever".

You may also have read the actual transcripts of Bin Ladens videos from the

cave in which he decries Saddam?

Skip on to page 82 for information on Salman Pak. On page 83 you will note

the OFFICIAL US POSITION of NO TRAINING of terrorists at Salman Pak after

1991!

On poage 84 the DIA states NO LINKS between Al Quaeda and Salman Pak!

Actually on page 85 you will note that far from training for terrorism it

was for training for COUNTER TERRORISM! In fact why would terrorists need to

train outdoors using an airplane? all they would need is a mockup of the

INSIDE of the Airplane! It is the COUNTER terrorists who want to take

control of the Airplane from the terrorists who need an Airplane to train

on?

On page 88 note the reference to Iraq not controlling the Kiurdis North and

that Al Zakawi'sd Anser Al Islam group operated there!

from 88-page 93 you will note that Iraq viewed Anser Al islam and Al Zawhari

as t THREAT and not as an Ally!

On page 94 they nmove on to the Prague meeting.

By the end of page 96 - reference 264 you will note that the US intelligence

service authotities are "Skeptical" whether Atta travelled to Prague!

The real meat however comes from page 105 - conclusions:

Conclusion 1: Saddam distrusted Al quaeda and refused ALL requests to work

with them!

2. There was ONE meeting between Saddams regime and Al Quaeda. There were

possibly two more where the Al Quaeda were rebuffed by Saddam.

3. No links on chemical and bio weapons

4. NO training by Saddams regime of Al Quaeda at Salman Pak OR ANYWHERE ELSE

in Iraq!

5. Saddam tried but failed to capture Zawahi and Anser al Islam. He did not

harbour them or co operate with them or even turn a blind eye to them!

6. Anser al Islan operated since 1991 in Kurdish controlled Northern Iraq

outside of Saddams reach.

7. No involvement in Sept 11 attacks.

8. No intention to work with terrorrists

That gets yo to page 111.

THAT IS THE WORD fromn CIA DIA FBI and NSA and Homeland Security based on

what they now know!

December 4, 2007

"Zeno" <Zeno@home.kom> wrote in message

news:2dbvk311l7uoafnr4osdiqrlgk68c50mtf@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:47:50 -0800, cor <corDEL@exchangenet.net>

> wrote:

>

>>Zeno wrote:

>>...

>>>> America is responsible because as the Occupying Power we are

>>>> responsible for

>>>> the safety of the citizens of Iraq. Or didn't you know that?

>>>

>>> You are thinking that america is "responsible" for Iraqis killing

>>> their fellow Iraqi? Or, are you unaware of the (almost nothing but)

>>> sectarian violence?

>>

>>The USA has financed their weaponry and facilitated the killing of

>>Shiites or/and Sunis. The USA provided billions of untraceable cash for

>>them to buy weapons, explosives, and even rechargeable drills for their

>>torture operations. The USA has facilitated corruption and ineptitude

>>and provided the pseudo legal foundation for torture, illegal and

>>indefinite detention, and over all, impunity at all levels.

>

> LOL, and then the Iraqi's pulled the trigger and slaughtered their

> neighbors.

>

> The point remains. The Iraqis are responsible for the violence.

thats like saying that Irish people are responsible for all the violence in

Northern Irelannd and that British colonialism and the planting of foreign

Scottish Protestents therer (and in earlier times all over Ireland) had

nothing to do with it!

December 4, 2007

"Don Homuth" <dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> wrote in message

news:acval3diehcj9f7a9emq92ilu6ka0b7lqt@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:34:50 GMT, Ivanhoe Martin <cliff@rasta.man>

> wrote:

>

>>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:34:01 -0500, "abracadabra" <abra@hotmail.com>

>>mumbled:

>>

>>> Al Qaeda didn't like Saddam

>>

>>Oh?

>>

>>http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp

>>

>>The CIA has confirmed, in interviews with detainees and informants it

>>finds highly credible, that al Qaeda's Number 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri,

>>met with Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad in 1992 and 1998.

>

> Nope -- such a meeting was never confirmed by the CIA.

Anyway at best a single meeting a decade ago whiuch IS NOt evidence of

planning world terror! But the US have had plenty of meetings with the

MuJIHADeen. In fact Rumsfeld (in the REgan years) even met Saddam several

times shook hs hand. The US removed trade embargoes and sold Saddam WMD. And

Saddam Used them (though maybe the Iranians also used them on the Kurds)

BEFORE he met Rumsfeld. Runsfeld and the US didnt complain about it then

though did they? They were busy supporting Islamists in Afghanistan while

they opposed them in Iran!

O Tempora O Mores! LOL

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:30:00 -0800, Don Homuth

<dhomuthoneatcomcast.net@> mumbled:

>The "data" however are Not confirmed.

WRONG!

http://www.burathanews.com/news_article_20033.html

The Republic of Iraq

The Presidency of the Republic

The Intelligence Service

Number: SH S/5083

Date: 1423 (Hijra), 12/12/2002

Secret

Mr. the respected M. M. SH. KH

To: Fifth, Sixth, Seventh Directorate

We would like to inform your Excellency that the date of 14/12/2002

was determined by the respected Secretary for the goal of the

important and top secret meeting with our source number (1000) Aymen

Al Zawahiri to agree on studying the prepared plan by the Respected

Presidential Committee regarding the operation (Revenge) inside the

territories of the

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:02:10 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

rubbish....

Now then:

http://www.burathanews.com/news_article_20033.html

The Republic of Iraq

The Presidency of the Republic

The Intelligence Service

Number: SH S/5083

Date: 1423 (Hijra), 12/12/2002

Secret

Mr. the respected M. M. SH. KH

To: Fifth, Sixth, Seventh Directorate

We would like to inform your Excellency that the date of 14/12/2002

was determined by the respected Secretary for the goal of the

important and top secret meeting with our source number (1000) Aymen

Al Zawahiri to agree on studying the prepared plan by the Respected

Presidential Committee regarding the operation (Revenge) inside the

territories of the

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:50:55 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>

>WE know about the Feith Memo being a mockup. but

BULLSHIT!!!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200410%5CNAT20041011a.html

When CNSNews.com published an article Monday, Oct. 4, entitled,

"Exclusive: Saddam Possessed WMD, Had Extensive Terror Ties," we

decided against publishing all 42 pages of the Iraqi intelligence

documents in our possession and on which the article was based.

We published only the first page, fearing that if more were made

widely available on the Internet, they might end up being altered or

otherwise manipulated. We offered credentialed news organizations and

counter-terrorism experts the opportunity to view and receive copies

of the documents so that they might check for themselves on the

authenticity of the documents and judge their importance in the debate

over whether Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction

and/or had ties to international terrorist organizations.

Several news organizations did just that. But in light of other

assertions on Wednesday, widely reported by the mainstream media, that

Saddam did not pose any significant threat prior to the U.S. invasion

of Iraq, we felt it was time to publish as many of the Iraqi

intelligence documents as possible.

What follows are copies of 30 of the 42 pages that are in our

possession. Pages 29 through 40 were excluded because they replicate,

though in a different person's handwriting, earlier documents.

Upon clicking on the individual pages of Arabic documents, readers

will have an opportunity to click on the unedited English translation

of those documents. We hope this serves to further illuminate a very

important element of the ongoing debate.

Page 1: Jan. 18, 1993 memo from Saddam Hussein, through his secretary,

to the Iraqi Intelligence Service, urging that missions be undertaken

to "hunt down Americans," especially in Somalia.

Pages 2-12: Jan. 25, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service to

Saddam Hussein, outlining the existing or developing relationships

between Iraq and terrorist organizations.

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

Page 5

Page 6

Page 7

Page 8

Page 9

Page 10

Page 11

Page 12

Page 13: Feb. 8, 1993 response from Saddam Hussein to the Jan. 25,

1993 memo.

Pages 14, 15: March 11, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service

detailing plans for a meeting with "one of the leaders from the

Egyptian Al-Jehad" terrorist organization.

Page 14

Page 15

Page 16: March 16, 1993 response from Saddam's secretary to the March

11, 1993 memo.

Pages 17, 18: March 18, 1993 memo from the Iraqi Intelligence Service

detailing plans to "move against the Egyptian regime" of Hosni

Mubarak.

Page 17

Page 18

Pages 19-20: Iraqi Intelligence Service internal memos regarding the

information of individuals who participated at "the martyr act camp"

belonging to the Iraqi intelligence directorate.

Page 19

Page 20

Pages 21-26: They comprise a list of terrorists trained at a camp

belonging to the Iraqi Intelligence Directorate.

Page 21

Page 22

Page 23

Page 24

Page 25

Page 26

Pages 27, 28: Notes from the Iraqi Intelligence Service outlining

strategies. Included is the assessment that terrorist "efforts should

be concentrated on Egypt." The notes also advise against targeting the

U.S. military, but recommend targeting "Americans as general" as well

as "US agents inside the (Egyptian) regime."

Page 27

Page 28

Page 29-40: Duplicative of pages 2-12, except in a different person's

handwriting.

Page 41: Table indicating Sept. 6, 2000 acquisition of malignant

pustule (anthrax) as well as sterilization/decontamination equipment.

Page 42: Table indicating Aug. 21, 2000 acquisition of mustard gas as

well as protective equipment.

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:50:55 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

Dublin, Ireland

89.100.47.254 = [ 089-100-047254.ntlworld.ie ]

inetnum: 89.100.0.0 - 89.101.127.255

netname: UPC-IE

descr: Customers IE

country: IE

admin-c: HMCB1-RIPE

tech-c: HMCB1-RIPE

remarks: Contact abuse@chello.ie concerning criminal

remarks: activities like spam hacks portscans

status: ASSIGNED PA

mnt-by: CHELLO-MNT

source: RIPE Filtered

role: Hostmaster Chello Broadband

address: UPC Broadband

address: Internet Services

address: Erlachgasse 116

address: A-1100 Vienna

address: Austria

phone: 43 1 96068 5000

fax-no: 43 1 96068 5666

e-mail: hostmaster@chello.at

admin-c: AK991-RIPE

tech-c: SB666-RIPE

tech-c: MG111

tech-c: MS2509-RIPE

tech-c: AK991-RIPE

nic-hdl: HMCB1-RIPE

mnt-by: CHELLO-MNT

source: RIPE Filtered

route: 89.100.0.0/16

descr: NTL Ireland

origin: AS6830

mnt-by: AS6830-MNT

source: RIPE Filtered

route: 89.100.0.0/15

descr: NTL Ireland

origin: AS6830

mnt-by: AS6830-MNT

source: RIPE Filtered

December 4, 2007

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:59:24 GMT, "Mavisbeacon"

<Mavisbeacon@nospam.forme> mumbled:

>Anyway at best a single meeting a decade ago whiuch IS NOt evidence of

>planning world terror

LIAR!