Do you pray? Why?

[Jhony5]

The universe is uncaused, eternal, and infinite.

Everything that is part of the universe must be part of the totality of the universe and there can be no limit to it because any boundary or change
in the universe would also be part of the universe.

So how did the totality of the universe come about?
1)The universe created itself by a process yet unknown.
2)A supernatural deity created the universe.
3)The universe is eternal and has always existed and was never created.

For something to come into being from nothing is impossible. How could any entity cause itself to exist? To argue that is to claim that before an entity existed, it already had the ability to execute an action of creation.

To argue that god, which would be part of the universe, created the universe, is absurd.
So the totality of the universe could not have been created by something external to it, since it contains all that exists, nor could it be created by itself.

Thus the universe is uncaused, eternal, and infinite.

I think I chewed on that post, Phreak, and spit that mother****a out!

 

[phreakwars]

You spit it out and totally missed the whole point.

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[Jhony5]

You spit it out and totally missed the whole point.

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I'm actually not sure what the poster was trying to say by sexualy molesting the laws of physics. That was no proof of gods existence. Rather a convoluted rant about kinetic energy and its relation to creation. The big bang is the energy which spured motion in our universe.

1)There are no square circles.
2)There is no before time.
3)There is no outside the universe.

You can't prove that Santa claus doesn't exist. That does not suggest that he does, either.

 

[phreakwars]

Here, read a SUMMARY of what he (St. Aquinas) was trying to convey: http://Off Topic Forum.com/showpost.php?p=167209&postcount=23
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If you don't get that, then you are one simple minded son of a bitch.

Perhaps you should read slower..
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[Jhony5]

Lets bear in mind that St. Aquinas was a philosipher from 1200 A.D. Long before the dawn of true science as we know it.
It seems to me as if the author has attempted to objectify god as not nessesarily a being but a thing? Which, in my mind, puts god into the catagory of unconcious force, lifeless and without thought or reason.

I have always thought the concept of god to describe a natural phenomenon. At one time, long ago in history, we (man) had neither the intellect nor the ability to figure out the truth. God became a ready substitute for the explanation of the unexplainable. Which is exactly what St. Aquinas has done here.

Science has reached a point whereas we can now explain much of what god was originaly credited for. The original need for god, in order to explain the unexplainable, has dissapated.
Science explains most of these things adequatly. Clearly god is a creation of man. If we can invent him, we can do away with him.

 

[Vortex]

To the bottom and bitter line...

Prayers are selfish no matter how you look at them...

They are all good wishes mind you...but still selfish...

give me a new bike, please dont let me catch something from the skank i slept with last night, may my (so and so) no have a (so and so) disease, May i win (insert competition here), let us win the war, may my child come home, may my evil neighbor burn in hell, please let me live through this, i hope tweeker gets the idiot box, please let me pass this test, let me make it through these tought times, i hope phreak becomes moderator of the world, i pray vortex sees the light and becomes straight, may my child not have to go throught what i went through...


No matter how trivial, or how pure the thought is...Prayer is a selfish thing...Plain and simple. It could be the most pure and simple and beautiful thing you have ever heard and make you want to cry..but it is always selfish in its own right. And that is a contradiction in the christian gods eyes...

It may be a great guesture and excersize in goodness...but it is ALWAYS selfish no matter who it bennefits....

If you want to rely on something rely on yourself...get things done on your own...not on false hopes. Get active and DO SOMETHING....Science is becomming the new faith (no not scientology)...but reality. Help other people out PERSONALLY..not just wishing it. Have family members/friends in trouble with the latest health scare...donate money..donate time...just do something, rather than sit on your ass. Bitching about the poor in your downtown area? Do something about it to help them back on their feet. Wanna get rich? Your on your own..dont rely on the lottery and a prayer!....

Sorry I think prayer in a christian sense is nothing more than a selfish crock..no matter how pure. If you want to get even deeper...Jesus dies for your sins...and so "god" wouldnt be a vengefull god any longer (course that meant that he wouldnt use his hands for good either to remove these powerfull things that he could fix either)

So does that mean jesus is actually satan? You be the judge!

 

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

You pray because if you fail to appear, the islamo-fascist police will beat you!

Do you actually believe the crap that comes out of your mouth.?I mean until this post I was thinking,''this guy cannot be serious''.So bloody bitter!
OH my goodness!you have serious phsycological issues

Prayer is a must as a muslim,but no-one can tell you to pray or not.It's between you and God.
And what on earth do you mean ''you fail to appear'',you don't have to be seen to pray.And it says in the Q'uran that you should not pray only to be seen by people.

 

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

here's the verse if you want proof

'Verily,the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah,but it is he who decieves them.And when they stand up for prayer,they stand with laziness and to be seen of men,and they do not remember Allah but little.'
4:142

 

[phreakwars]

here's the verse if you want proof

'Verily,the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah,but it is he who decieves them.And when they stand up for prayer,they stand with laziness and to be seen of men,and they do not remember Allah but little.'
4:142

The official GF version is:

004.142
YUSUFALI: The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching Allah, but He will over-reach them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance;
PICKTHAL: Lo! the hypocrites seek to beguile Allah, but it is He Who beguileth them. When they stand up to worship they perform it languidly and to be seen of men, and are mindful of Allah but little;
SHAKIR: Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little.
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[Outlaw2747]

Keep in mind what the word selfish means. Alot of people assume it is a negative term that simply means you care ONLY about you and **** the world and anyone else. It just simply means that something is just pertaining to you and you only and not necessarily to degrade another person or party. I know nothing truly sparked this comment but I am sure alot of people when they read Vortex's post, they assume something purely negative.

Just a thought and something to keep in mind.

 

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

The main point i was trying to make to MRIH is that we should not pray only to be seen of men so i don't think anyone will beat us.

 

[Jhony5]

You mean to tell me Osama doesn't hold a gun to your head and force you to pray? MBIH had me convinced otherwise.

 

[Jhony5]

Keep in mind what the word selfish means. Alot of people assume it is a negative term that simply means you care ONLY about you and **** the world and anyone else. It just simply means that something is just pertaining to you and you only and not necessarily to degrade another person or party. I know nothing truly sparked this comment but I am sure alot of people when they read Vortex's post, they assume something purely negative.

Just a thought and something to keep in mind.

Selfish :1)Concerned with your own intrests, needs, and wishes while ignoring those of others . 2)Showing that personal needs and wishes are thought to be more important than those of others . Sounds pretty negative to me, dude.

 

[TheJenn88]

Prayer is for people who can't depend on their own strength, or the love of the people around them - and they can't get enough of what they want, so they ask for more.

I worship no one - my life is my own.

 

[Crispy Critter]

Prayer is for people who can't depend on their own strength, or the love of the people around them - and they can't get enough of what they want, so they ask for more.

I worship no one - my life is my own.

Are you strong enough to do #11 in a manual for living? http://home.nvg.org/~aga/stories/enchiridion.html That seems to be a true test to your or anyones strength...

 

[Outlaw2747]

Selfish :1)Concerned with your own intrests, needs, and wishes while ignoring those of others . 2)Showing that personal needs and wishes are thought to be more important than those of others . Sounds pretty negative to me, dude.

Eh, maybe I looked too far into the word. Because of self-ish. Meaning just dealing with yourself. But eh, can't be right all the time.

That was selfish of me. LOL

 

[Crispy Critter]

Science has reached a point whereas we can now explain much of what god was originaly credited for. The original need for god, in order to explain the unexplainable, has dissapated.
Science explains most of these things adequatly. Clearly god is a creation of man. If we can invent him, we can do away with him.

There is still much unknown to science... I started a thread someplace on this site about good and evil... maybe it has relevance since in science positives and negatives are the norm and we kind of like the norm of electricity and automobiles and so on that work on the theory of positive and negative. If good and evil exist then the need for a creator exist regardless if it was manufactured by man or in reality. My point is this... if good and evil exist as positives and negatives in electricity, the poles and so on then one outcome is a generator and the other is a motor as a generator produces power from the differences and the motor uses the power produced by the same differences. Perhaps a higher being determines which will be.

If the need for a god is no longer there then there is no basis for moral law. Why should killing yourself be against the law? Why should we not ignore everything that causes a change of our peace of mind like the link in my last post? If so we wouldn't have bothered Saddam when he invaded Kuwait for we just gave it back and if he wanted our land we could give it back to him too. If there is no reprisal why do we spray all mosquitoes and not seek out the one that bit our ankle? Why not just black flag our enemies and be done with it... it seems equal to the positives and negatives in nature. Are you saying size matters? We can kill mosquitoes in mass for comfort but we slid out of the swamp with science based right and wrong when dealing with people? Why not nuke all the people that are trying to harm us? Or on the other hand why upset ourself if they take our land? Based on generator or motor it is nature and either way should be acceptable without moral laws.

 

[Gentilhomme]

You need not religion to tell you right form wrong. If you think its wrong, then its wrong to you (and chances are MANY others) this is why we discuss laws, to see wht people think about them and wither or not they're good or bad. The impression you leave with a post like that is that you are completely a product of your religion and its moral beliefs. I'm not saying you are, but surly you can see the origins of that sentiment bby those more ignorent folk in the scientific community. If those who have no connection with religion can grow up to live happily amoung with everyone else then does that not proove that an upbring CAN consist of your parents guidence along with your peers and experiences?

When it comes to teaching right or wrong nobdy can be 100% correct since our experiences differ so much nobody is on exactly the same ground. Most people have a good idea as to what the basic human rights are, it seems to be nearly a universal sentiment (no murder, rape, war etc.. that is unless their RELIGION says otherwise) so by merely going by these non-religious 'Commandments" we can find the anwsers of other questions of right or wrong through comparsion and thought and debate.

 

[MR. DR.]

I am a Deist and I personally consider prayer to be a waste of time. God gave us free will and drive and told us to run along. If you want something, go for it! God is your creator, not your errand boy.

On the other hand, I have no problem with those who choose to pray and I don't see why anyone else would have a problem with it. If it helps them sleep better at night, more power to them!

 

[ALLAH IS GREAT]

MR.DR.,What's a deist?