GI Guilty in Iraqi's Suffocation - Read the link and then vote...

[snafu]

First let me say I think nobody's looking at the big picture of why where there. We went to war for a lot of reasons.

1) Probable cause.
2) Non-compliance
3) National Security in the way of oil
4) Liberation of an oppressed nation

But most of all is National Security in the sense that we have a real enemy!
This enemy is not a country. It has no boundaries, morals or remorse. We as a liberal Nation usually need more than probable cause. I think that once we past that threshold we can be acceptable to loss. Therefore I think this is a conservative way of putting a check on it.
I’m worried about Iran and N Korea. If taking out Iraq first is what was needed, then I’m all for it. I would hope that we are taking the right path but I guess time will tell.


The way I see it is that we need to be aggressive. I’m sure it could get out of hand if it’s not in check. But look at history.

I like to think of the Pablo Escobar story. If it weren’t for the “Los Pepes” they would’ve never gotten him. “Los Pepes” (People persecuted by Pablo Escabar) used Pablo Escobar’s same tactics of fear and persecution.
I’m not saying we need to go that far. But if someone accidentally gets suffocated while trying to extract information that's the price we have to pay.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

...if someone accidentally gets suffocated while trying to extract information that's the price we have to pay.

Good God people...What have we become?

I have your uniform ready for you Herr Snafu...a uniform which came to symbolize fear, terror and also respect of a different kind; Proudly worn by men who didn't let the little things like "being a human being" get in the way of extracting valuable information.

Untersturmfuhrer SS-Gestapo

View attachment 769

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The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the State." It had the authority to investigate treason, espionage and sabotage cases, and cases of criminal attacks on the Nazi Party and on Germany.

The law had been changed in such a way that the Gestapo's actions were not subject to judicial review. Nazi jurist Dr. Werner Best stated, "As long as the [Gestapo] ... carries out the will of the leadership, it is acting legally."

The Gestapo was specifically exempted from responsibility to administrative courts, where citizens normally could sue the state to conform to laws.

The power of the Gestapo most open to misuse was "Schutzhaft" or "protective custody" — a euphemism for the power to imprison people without judicial proceedings, typically in concentration camps. The person imprisoned even had to sign his or her own Schutzhaftbefehl, the document declaring that the person desired to be imprisoned. Normally this signature was forced by beatings and torture.

DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND HORRIFICALLY SIMILAR TO THE EVENTS THE USA IS DOING TODAY?

 

[Jhony5]

You forgot the matching cyanide capsule necklace. It goes great with the uniform, looks snappy whilst goosesteping, and provides an easy way out when cornered by the result of your misguided ideology.

 

[eisanbt]

The thing is, people in power have this habit of not giving a **** about the past or the future, or other people.

To powerful leaders, soldiers are weapons (or possibly records) not people. Hell, civilians aren't people either it seems. Media, not people. NGO workers, not people.....

Frankly I'm beginning to doubt the existance of humans; Everybody is just something to somebody else it seems.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You know something, I'm going to make a preemptive strike here...

Before any of you try and say that the US is not becomming the Gestapo, perhaps you might want to review the history of HOW the Gestapo came into existence; what it's so called original function was going to be.

RIGHT NOW, there is EXACTLY the same type of legislation being considered by the House at the urging of the President; you know that guy from New Haven, Connecticut who thinks he's a Texan - ja, Der Fuhrer...

Read!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109WvwUu&refer=&r_n=hr333.109&item=&sel=TOC_208072&

 

[fullauto]

The thing many people fail to realize, is that the average hard-working german man in the street, of ANY racial backgroud, had little to fear from the Nazi regime... Even nations that germany occupied feared little from the Nazis and many even supported them!

FACTS:

The French being occupied by the Nazis in WWII had little fear for thier lives or thier possessions. My Grandmother was in Occupied France during WWII, and 95% of her town was THANKFUL that someone had FINALLY done what they had wanted to do for years... She told me that the racial makeup of those deported was split evenly, Jews, Nordic, Black... It had little to do with race at first... IT WAS SIMPLY A PURGE OF CRIMINALS AND THE FAT AROUND THE MID BELLY OF A SOCIETY THAT HAD TOO MUCH!

Just as many Blonde haired, blue eyed criminals and drunks died as a result of the Nazis invading Poland as did the jews! There was NO racial distinction in these purges... CRIMINALS ! ! ! Treason, Rape, Robery etc... many of these where overtaking Europe at exponential rates, and they just got fed the **** up!

Later, after unsuccessfull attempts at deporting jews, they resorted to the unfortunate detail of trying to exterminate them from EUROPE... not the world... The reason jews were singled out more than others is almost completely found in the Bolshevic revolution in 1917... In Germanies state of RAPID DECLINE as a result of the Treaty of Versailles (a result of the Jews promise to enter the US with the Allies in exchange for a jewish homeland in then British occupied Palestine), Germans feared a communist revolution in thier country lead by jews the same way it had happened in the Soviet states in 1917... and read up on how that turned out for the Christians! Read up on the great purges! MANY, many more Christians died as a result of jewish communism than did jews at the hands of the Nazis! But you don't ever hear about that, do you?

These people rightfully saw the Nazis as thier savior, and likewise saw hitler as almost a god! Just remember a few things when trying to pass judgement on what happened back then...

1. Hitler was elected, and then GIVEN power... he was not a dictator

2. What happened over there was a direct result of OUR suffocation of arguably the most intelligent/productive society in the world before WWI.

3. The SAME EXACT THING is happening now the the western world as a whole... and we can vote, just as they did!

This **** will happen again... most likely here, or maybe England... But it will happen... and this time, knowing how it all turned out in the end, should we take the same path... Make the same mistakes? Should we side with our ideological enemies rather than our own people?

 

[fullauto]

food for thought...

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
http://www.aztlan.net/protocols.htm
http://www.ety.com/berlin/flashpnt.htm

and a good link in another thread...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

 

[snafu]

You know something, I'm going to make a preemptive strike here...

Before any of you try and say that the US is not becomming the Gestapo, perhaps you might want to review the history of HOW the Gestapo came into existence; what it's so called original function was going to be.

RIGHT NOW, there is EXACTLY the same type of legislation being considered by the House at the urging of the President; you know that guy from New Haven, Connecticut who thinks he's a Texan - ja, Der Fuhrer...

Read!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109WvwUu&refer=&r_n=hr333.109&item=&sel=TOC_208072&

OK now what’s your point? This is nothing new. Have we always been a Gestapo? There are times were we should have complete control.
Do you think were gonna go on a purge know?
Look out blacks and Jews! Oh wait it's white Chirstians turn.

This is totally off the subject of an accident that happened. Yes I think we need to be even more aggressive.
Do you really think that in any time of our history they didn’t have interrogations, secret prisons? Don’t you remember the Communist days? People were whisked away.

I will concede that we shouldn’t lower ourselves to there standards.
There dose that make you feel any better?
Still won’t change a thing.

The real Gestapo is gonna have a turban on telling you to kiss their asses! And you’ll bow down and do it!

 

[ToriAllen]

If there is one sure thing about war, it is that war evolves. With that evolution comes changes in techniques, protocol, and even 'rules'. If you do not evolve with it then you will lose, or worse, die. The old style of lining up in rows to be picked off by the enemy evolved into trenches and guerrilla warfare. It was not very gentlemanlike, but it won wars. Isn

 

[Jhony5]

I would like to know how this compares in any way to the Nazi concentration camps.

It doesn't. It's a well known law of internet physics. That at some point during any discussion, someone will make mention of the Nazis.

Lets not continue to draw parallels between American efforts in the Middle-East and the upstart of the Nazi war machine. It clouds the issue beyond repair once we start down that road.

 

[fullauto]

It doesn't. It's a well known law of internet physics. That at some point during any discussion, someone will make mention of the Nazis.

Lets not continue to draw parallels between American efforts in the Middle-East and the upstart of the Nazi war machine. It clouds the issue beyond repair once we start down that road.

GREAT ****ing point... But just one more thing... Why is it anytime someone wants to basically call someone the most evil thing in the world, they always compare it to Hitler or the Nazis.... They killed 6 million, total... and many of them died as a result of starvation and sickness... Whereas The Russian purges killed about 20 million! And who the **** knows how many in total Pol Pot killed...

Let's all start calling evil people evil, and not try to make a point by bringing up things MOST of you have NO EARTHLY CLUE what you are talking about...

Railing against Nazis is easy, and does not prove that you are smart or well educated... It just proves that you can repeat **** ad-nauseum that you heard other (most likely smarter) people say...

You want to prove you're smart?! try arguing FOR the Nazis! now that's a ****ing challenge...

 

[phreakwars]

Argueing FOR the Nazi's isn't too hard, as a matter of fact, the NAZI movement was actually praised for quite some time, BY THE US, Hitler just took his idealism too far... Can this be compared to Bush and Iraq ?? Yes, I believe it can.
.
.

 

[fullauto]

Argueing FOR the Nazi's isn't too hard, as a matter of fact, the NAZI movement was actually praised for quite some time, BY THE US, Hitler just took his idealism too far... Can this be compared to Bush and Iraq ?? Yes, I believe it can.
.
.

I would LOVE to hear this... How the hell can you compare Bush in Iraq to ANYTHING hitler did for ANY reason...

BTW.... not talking about arguing for them then... I'm talking about trying to side with them NOW.... VERY difficult...

 

[phreakwars]

Easy, like I said, the NAZI movement was actually praised at first (Just like Bush), but "Da Fuhrer " (Much like Bush), let his popularity go to his head, and instructed his men to do unethical deeds in the name of the cause.

Hitler couldn't get away with it for too long, because unlike the United States, Germany was a small country, the US sure caught on to Bush, but instead of other nations fighting the US, the ******* has THEM convinced that the US is doing a "GOOD" thing... which is total bullshit to me.

The new term for Nazi Facism, should be "LIBERATION" in this, oh so ****ing politically correct world we have now.

People like SNAFU actually fall for this **** too, and that's just sad.

I really don't think you need to try too hard to defend the Nazi movement fullauto... within a few years, their idealism will be intergrated into our culture anyway.
.
.

 

[fullauto]

Easy, like I said, the NAZI movement was actually praised at first (Just like Bush), but "Da Fuhrer " (Much like Bush), let his popularity go to his head, and instructed his men to do unethical deeds in the name of the cause.

Hitler couldn't get away with it for too long, because unlike the United States, Germany was a small country, the US sure caught on to Bush, but instead of other nations fighting the US, the ******* has THEM convinced that the US is doing a "GOOD" thing... which is total bullshit to me.

The new term for Nazi Facism, should be "LIBERATION" in this, oh so ****ing politically correct world we have now.

People like SNAFU actually fall for this **** too, and that's just sad.

I really don't think you need to try too hard to defend the Nazi movement fullauto... within a few years, their idealism will be intergrated into our culture anyway.
.
.

Bush = Voted in

Hitler = 'On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitler and the Nazis set out to to consolidate their power. With Hitler as chancellor, that proved to be a fairly easy task.'

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler = Caught trying to rescue White Europeans from certain cultural death through communism... BY Starting world war!

Bush = Caught trying to position US for almost certain global war by securing our energy supplies, and sticking the eye of the very ideology that wants to destroy us... WITHOUT STARTING THE INEVITABLE WORLD WAR ! !

-------------------------------------------------------------

It is becoming blatently obvious to me that anyone who throws the word Nazi around like its a current problem, simply doesn't understand current problems... Or have a good grasp on history as a whole for that matter...

BUSH IS THE LEAST OF OUR PROBLEMS... I WOULD LOVE TO MEET THE SON OF A BITCH THAT TOLD YOU DIFFERENTLY... You find that ***** and they are trying to stab you in the back for one reason or another...

 

[ToriAllen]

Easy, like I said, the NAZI movement was actually praised at first (Just like Bush), but "Da Fuhrer " (Much like Bush), let his popularity go to his head, and instructed his men to do unethical deeds in the name of the cause.

Hitler couldn't get away with it for too long, because unlike the United States, Germany was a small country, the US sure caught on to Bush, but instead of other nations fighting the US, the ******* has THEM convinced that the US is doing a "GOOD" thing... which is total bullshit to me.

The new term for Nazi Facism, should be "LIBERATION" in this, oh so ****ing politically correct world we have now.

People like SNAFU actually fall for this **** too, and that's just sad.

I really don't think you need to try too hard to defend the Nazi movement fullauto... within a few years, their idealism will be intergrated into our culture anyway.
.
.

Are you trying to stir **** up again or do you actually believe the dribble that is coming out of your brain into the computer? Bush like Hitler? This war is like WWII? Our troops are Nazis?
Hitler was trying to annihilate an entire race of human beings. Not control or manipulate; annihilate. Hitler was trying to conquer Europe, and would not have stopped there. Bush, with congress' approval, has sent troops to invade one country. Hitler’s goal was domination. We are not trying to take over Iraq. The leaders of the countries Hitler invaded were not killing civilians that opposed them. Bush began a war with a country that had been oppressed for a long time; One that posed a threat to the US. Our soldiers are not going around murdering civilians. Actually, most of the population is glad we are there. I don't think Hitler could say the same about the countries he invaded.

So far, there were a few questionable pictures taken, and one enemy soldier died during interrogation. I hardly think that can be compared to Nazi concentration camps.

In short, anyone comparing a US President to Hitler, and US soldiers to Nazis can go **** themselves.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Are you trying to stir **** up again or do you actually believe the dribble that is coming out of your brain into the computer? Bush like Hitler? This war is like WWII? Our troops are Nazis?
Hitler was trying to annihilate an entire race of human beings. Not control or manipulate; annihilate. Hitler was trying to conquer Europe, and would not have stopped there. Bush, with congress' approval, has sent troops to invade one country. Hitler’s goal was domination. We are not trying to take over Iraq. The leaders of the countries Hitler invaded were not killing civilians that opposed them. Bush began a war with a country that had been oppressed for a long time; One that posed a threat to the US. Our soldiers are not going around murdering civilians. Actually, most of the population is glad we are there. I don't think Hitler could say the same about the countries he invaded.

So far, there were a few questionable pictures taken, and one enemy soldier died during interrogation. I hardly think that can be compared to Nazi concentration camps.

In short, anyone comparing a US President to Hitler, and US soldiers to Nazis can go **** themselves.

Tori,

You're young, never been in the military, and still quite ignorant of how the US military and political machine works so I can't hold it against you but I want you to consider something...

How many people have to be tortured to death or die while in custody of the United States Government in orrder for you to consider it something worht paying attention to? 1, 5, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000? What's the magic number for you to wake you up and cause you to think?

Just try a Google search for "killed or dead in US custody" and the numbers are staggering.; at least to me, and far more than 1.


Hitler wanted to conquer Europe? Hmm.

FACT:

According to the Department of Defense publication, "Active Duty Military Personnel Strengths by Regional Area and by Country, the United States has troops in 135 countries.

Here is the list:
Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Antigua
Argentina
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belgium
Belize
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Brazil
Bulgaria
Burma
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Chad
Chile
China
Colombia
Congo
Costa Rica
Cote D’lvoire
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Djibouti
Dominican Republic
East Timor
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Fiji Finland
France
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Greece
Guatemala
Guinea
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Liberia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Mali
Malta
Mexico
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Nepal
Netherlands
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
North Korea
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Qatar
Romania
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia and Montenegro
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovenia
Spain
South Africa
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Suriname
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Trinidad and Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
Uruguay
Venezuela
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

This means that the United States has troops in 70 percent of the world’s countries. The average American could probably not locate half of these 135 countries on a map.​

To this list could be added regions like the Indian Ocean territory of Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, and the Atlantic Ocean island of St. Helena, all still controlled by Great Britain, but not considered sovereign countries.

Greenland is also home to U.S. troops, but is technically part of Denmark.

Troops in two other regions, Kosovo and Hong Kong, might also be included here, but the DOD’s "Personnel Strengths" document includes U.S. troops in Kosovo under Serbia and U.S. troops in Hong Kong under China.

Possessions of the United States like Guam, Johnston Atoll, Puerto Rico, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, and the Virgin Islands are likewise home to U.S. troops. Guam has over 3,200.

Hitler would be so proud of us!

I am amazed at how people so casually dismiss any comparison of current events to Nazi Germany as being overdramatic or blown out of proportion. Quite to the contrary, they are not. It was this attitude of "it's not really like that" which allowed the Nazis to come to power and form the Fascist state it was in the first place.

People who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Don't delude yourself into thinking that the US isn't capable of deteriorating into a Fascist state. All it takes is one step at a time, inconspicuous or at least, defensible plausibility.

What happens when a "terrorist" bomb detonates in the Senate killing a majority of Senators and Congressmen? Does the President declare "emergency" powers for himself? Just like Hitler...1...2...3... It's that easy. Don't kid youself.

So, did you come up with that number I asked you about in the top of this post? How many step into the darkness must we take before we are lost to it?

 

[Jhony5]

I don't like where this is going.

According to the Department of Defense publication, "Active Duty Military Personnel Strengths by Regional Area and by Country, the United States has troops in 135 countries.

We are occupying, what 2 of these countries? Most of the others welcome our presence to protect their own interests, as they trust us enough to allow it.

Whats bothering me is many of you seem to be forgetting that bush was elected into power. Near the end of his second term, he will be out of power in a few years. It would take remarkable circumstances for him to retain power. Circumstances that would involve a complete 180 degree turn of Americas entire political system. In short, the American government would first have to overtake........America, for George Bush to assume power in a permanent sense. Hitler had no threat of loosing power to anyone but a foreign body.

This is an absurd parallel that is being drawn, between Bush and Hitler, and I think you guys know this.

This means that the United States has troops in 70 percent of the world’s countries.

How many of these countries were overtaken by America using brutal military force? Subtract that amount from the amount of these countries that were overtaken by a foreign military not more then 60 years ago. Now you have a realistic formula to work with. How many European countries that Hitler took over did he provide food to? How many countries did he starve to death in catastrophic proportions while waging a war of attrition?

Certain words and phrases come to mind when trying to compare and contrast Hitler and Bush in regards to military occupation.

1) Intent
2) Method of operation
3) Genocide
4) Prisons (death camps) that accept children as captives.

Bush has no capacity whatsoever to maintain control of a military operation that desires to "take over the world". Its not even plausible in the least.

As well Hitler didn't face the possibility of handing power over to the likes of Hillary Clinton.

 

[ToriAllen]

Tori,

You're young, never been in the military, and still quite ignorant of how the US military and political machine works so I can't hold it against you but I want you to consider something...

Don't get self righteous on me you pompous *****. I'm married to a medically retired Army Veteran. My Grandfather is retired Air Force, and my father did his time in the Navy. I am quite aware of the military and political working of the government. The only difference is, my views aren't jaded by my own guilt and self loathing like yours are. You learn to deal with your own experiences and quit projecting them onto every other person in the military.

 

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Damn fools always get so close to the trees they cannot see the forest.

I am not trying to say the BUSH per se, is like Hitler.

What I am saying is that when one is willing to circumvent the laws, break the laws, murder, spy, torture, imprison without trial and basically become less than human so as to provide oneself a "defense" or "information" or "intelligence", you have started down the path of Fascism or Nazism.

This is the comparison and contrast.

Do I really think Bush wants to be Der Fuhrer? No. Do I think that his actions are highly similar to those of Adolf Hitler? Absolutely yes.

Whenever a leader feels that by virtue of their political office, they are somehow entitled to be above the law and allowed to decide what is and is not legal for themselves instead of the courts deciding, then this is the beginnings of a dictatorship. It's that simple.

What started this is all of the idiots here cheering that a US soldier MURDERED and Iraqi General Prisioner of War; Nevermind that we have murdered civilians (which we call insurgents) as well. ****!!!

What The ****!!!

Then, some of you defend it with a whole host of BULLSHIT reasons and JUSTIFICATIONS that support COLD BLOODED TORTURE AND MURDER!

I thought we were the GOOD GUYS, but it seems we have taken our new rules from the Nazi playbook.

I don't ever want to hear one of you mother ****ers ever complaining when a US soldier or civilian gets beheaded, or blown up. They (the insurgents) are just doing what they feel they need to in order to win!

WHAT A GODDAMN ****ED UP PHILOSOPHY YOU ASSWIPES HAVE!

**** ALL OF YOU!