GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE

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Captain Compassion

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GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
Number Watch, June 2007
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

By John Brignell

It was Michael Crichton who first prominently identified
environmentalism as a religion. That was in a speech in 2003, but the
world has moved on apace since then and adherents of the creed now
have a firm grip on the world at large.

Global Warming has become the core belief in a new eco-theology. The
term is used as shorthand for anthropogenic (or man made) global
warming. It is closely related to other modern belief systems, such as
political correctness, chemophobia and various other forms of
scaremongering, but it represents the vanguard in the assault on
scientific man.

The activists now prefer to call it "climate change". This gives them
two advantages:

It allows them to seize as "evidence" the inevitable occurrences of
unusually cold weather as well as warm ones.

The climate is always changing, so they must be right.

Only the relatively elderly can remember the cynical haste with which
the scaremongers dropped the "coming ice age" and embraced exactly the
opposite prediction, but aimed at the same culprit - industry. This
was in Britain, which was the cradle of the new belief and was a
response to the derision resulting from the searing summer of 1976.
The father of the new religion was Sir Crispin Tickell, and because he
had the ear of Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, who was engaged in a
battle with the coal miners and the oil sheiks, it was introduced into
international politics with the authority of the only major political
leader holding a qualification in science. The introduction was timely
yet ironic since, in the wake of the world's political upheavals, a
powerful new grouping of left-wing interests was coalescing around
environmental issues. The result was a new form of godless religion.
The global warming cult has the characteristics of religion and not
science for the following reasons.

Faith and scepticism

Faith is a belief held without evidence. The scientific method, a
loose collection of procedures of great variety, is based on precisely
the opposite concept, as famously declared by Thomas Henry Huxley:

The improver of natural knowledge absolutely refuses to acknowledge
authority, as such. For him, scepticism is the highest of duties;
blind faith the one unpardonable sin.

Huxley was one of a long tradition of British sceptical philosophers.
From the Bacons, through the likes of Locke, Hume and Russell, to the
magnificent climax of Popper's statement of the principle of
falsifiability, the scientific method was painfully established, only
to be abandoned in a few short decades. It is one of the great ironies
of modern history that the nation that was the cradle of the
scientific method came to lead the process of its abandonment. The
great difference, then, is that religion demands belief, while science
requires disbelief. There is a great variety of faiths. Atheism is
just as much a faith as theism. There is no evidence either way. There
is no fundamental clash between faith and science - they do not
intersect. The difficulties arise, however, when one pretends to be
the other.

The Royal Society, as a major part of the flowering of the tradition,
was founded on the basis of scepticism. Its motto "On the word of no
one" was a stout affirmation. Now suddenly, following their successful
coup, the Greens have changed this motto of centuries to one that
manages to be both banal and sinister - "Respect the facts." When
people start talking about "the facts" it is time to start looking for
the fictions. Real science does not talk about facts; it talks about
observations, which might turn out to be inaccurate or even
irrelevant.

The global warmers like to use the name of science, but they do not
like its methods. They promote slogans such a "The science is settled"
when real scientists know that science is never settled. They were
not, however, always so wise. In 1900, for example, the great Lord
Kelvin famously stated, "There is nothing new to be discovered in
physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement."
Within a few years classical physics was shattered by Einstein and his
contemporaries. Since then, in science, the debate is never closed.

The world might (or might not) have warmed by a fraction of a degree.
This might (or might not) be all (or in part) due to the activities of
mankind. It all depends on the quality of observations and the
validity of various hypotheses. Science is at ease with this
situation. It accepts various theories, such as gravitation or
evolution, as the least bad available and of the most practical use,
but it does not believe. Religion is different.

Sin and absolution

It is in the nature of religion to be authoritarian and proscriptive.
Essential to this is the concept of sin - a transgression in thought
or deed of theological principles.

Original sin in the older religions derived from one of the founts of
life on earth - sex. The new religion goes even further back to the
very basis of all life - carbon. Perhaps the fundamental human fear is
fear of life itself. The amazing propensity of carbon to form
compounds of unlimited complexity made the existence of life possible,
while its dioxide is the primary foodstuff, the very start of the food
chain. Every item of nutriment you consume started out as atmospheric
carbon dioxide. It is therefore the ideal candidate for original sin,
since no one can escape dependence on it. This manna that gave us life
is now regularly branded in media headlines as "pollution" and
"toxic": surely one of the most perverse dysphemisms in the history of
language.

The corrective to sin in religion is absolution, and the power of most
religions comes from their claim to have the monopoly on absolution.
So it is with the new godless religion. Furthermore, it is in the
nature of religion to create false markets. In the time of Chaucer the
Pardoner sold papal indulgences, which freed the prosperous from the
consequences of sin. Likewise, the new pardoners sell carbon offsets.
As in so much of both ancient and modern society these activities
divert effort from wealth creation and so act as a drag on the
economy. They also grant to the rich a comfort that is not available
to the poor - a sure road to success.

Proselytes and evangelists

Most religions seek to grow by means of proselytism. Science does not
seek or need converts. It teaches those that are willing to learn, but
it does not impose itself on those who are indifferent. Religions (at
least those that are successful) have a different imperative. A
growing cohort of believers reinforces the beliefs of existing
adherents and participating in the quest for converts helps assuage
the inevitable doubts they might harbour. Successful religions are
structured to encompass this expansionary mechanism. Those who can
recruit others to the cause are therefore held in high regard.

Demagogues and hypocrites

Demagoguery is also, therefore, a feature of religion. Some people
have the capacity to hold the masses in their thrall. It is a
mysterious art, as their skills of oratory do not often stand up to
any sort of critical examination. They are idols of the moment, who
often turn out to have feet of clay, as so frequently seems to happen
with charismatic TV preachers.

One of the most notorious demagogues of the godless religion is Al
Gore. He is certainly no great orator, but he makes up for it with
chutzpah. His disregard for truth is exemplified by his characteristic
and ubiquitous pose in front of a satellite photograph of hurricane
Katrina. Even some of the most vehement climate "scientists" refrain
from connecting that particular isolated and monstrously tragic event
with global warming. Likewise his Old Testament style prophecies of
further disasters, such as floods due to a rise in sea level, greatly
exceed the more modest claims of the "professionals". As in the
overthrow of the cities of the plain and other biblical prophecies,
Gore promises a rain of fire and brimstone on us, unless we change our
ways.

Gore also displays all the characteristics of the classical religious
hypocrite. He disregards his own proscriptions with abandonment and
ostentation. By his own measure (carbon footprint) his sins are great;
at least twenty times those of the average American. It is all right
though, because he purchases absolution (carbon offsets) through his
own company. As he is a private individual it is not known whether he
profits directly, but at a minimum he does not pay out of his taxable
income and, worst of all, he demonstrates that the rich are immune
from any of the actual privations that attachment to the new religion
visits upon its poorer adherents. This is also not unknown in
traditional religions and has been a source of material for satirists
throughout the centuries.

Infidels and apostates

Religions vary in their treatment of unbelievers, which ranges from
disregard to slaughter. The new religion relies at present on verbal
assault and character assassination, though there are those who would
go further. They call the infidels "deniers" - a cheap and quite
despicable verbal reference to the Holocaust. There is a sustained
campaign to deny the deniers any sort of public platform for their
views.

Apostates are universally even more reviled than infidels. They have
turned their backs on the true faith, whichever that might happen to
be. Partial apostates, or heretics, are even more loathed and through
the ages have been subjected to the most appalling punishments and
deaths. In the case of the "sceptical environmentalist", Bjorn
Lomborg, he is of the faith. In fact he is a serial believer;
accepting, for example, that eating celery causes two percent of all
cancers and, of course, that global warming is man made, but he
rejects the sacrificing of humanity to the belief. This is
unacceptable! What are a few million deaths from dirty water, mosquito
bites and other hazards so long as people can be made to conform? So
far he has only been assaulted with insults and custard pies. Patrick
Moore, a founder of Greenpeace, broke with the movement over its
growing anti-human, anti-scientific tendencies and drift into
extremism. The last straw for him was the campaign against chlorine,
not only an essential component of human life but also the basis of
one of the most dramatically life-saving hygienic interventions. He
has, consequently, been subjected to a prolonged campaign of
vilification, described as an eco-Judas, turncoat and traitor. Every
minor commentator or blogger who manifests disbelief can expect to be
the target of abuse from self-appointed protectors of the creed.

Sacrifice and ritual

It is part of human nature that we do not like to admit making a
mistake, even to ourselves. So if, for example, we buy a magic device
that by some mysterious means improves the fuel efficiency of our car,
we drive a little more conservatively in order to prove that we have
not been had. Religions exploit this weakness as a means creating and
reinforcing commitment. If someone can be induced or coerced into
making a sacrifice they then have a stake in the cause.

Windmills, for example, are the symbols of power, not physical power
(of which they are derisorily short) but political and religious
power. They are like the great domes of temples, the statues of Saddam
or the big "M" arch of MacDonald's. Windmills are ugly: they destroy
the visual (and aural) landscape, but that is their purpose. They are
part of the sacrifice. It would not be so bad if they were simply
useless, but it is worse than that. Conventional generating systems of
equivalent power have to operate for 80% of the time, while the wind
is blowing too soft or too hard, and then be switched to warm standby
when it is just right, an expensive and wasteful process. Windmills
are there to remind us of our commitment, willing or not, to the
cause, both in excessive taxation and loss of visual and aural
amenity.

As in other forms of mental conditioning, continued reinforcement is a
necessary part of the process and that is where ritual comes in.
Ritual comprises tiny sacrifices infinitely repeated. Going round the
house switching off standby lights performs the same function as the
repetitive chanting of mantras. The fact that it is pointless is the
whole point.

One of the most valuable ideas of modern engineering, lost in the
noise, has been lost in the noise. In most applications a change of,
say, one part in ten thousand is too small to be measured and
therefore not worthy of concern. If standby in domestic devices ever
were a problem, it is now a rapidly diminishing one. In the old days
of thermionic devices (valves or tubes) it was necessary to keep
cathodes heated to avoid a prolonged warming up period, but
transistors and LCDs do not have cathodes and are therefore instantly
available. Present standby powers are about five watts. In the
temperate zone that is transferred from your central heating bill for
half the year, though it is barely enough to keep your big toe warm.
In fact, it would be relatively easy to make the standby power
microwatts, just enough to power an optical sensor and decoder, though
until now nobody thought such a pointless exercise necessary.

Prophecy and divination

In the real world attempts at prophecy always come to a bad end. Only
in religious texts and the currently popular fantasy fiction do
prophecies come true. H G Wells, in "The shape of things to come,"
successfully predicted the mechanised War, as did Winston Churchill,
but little else, and the film that Wells closely supervised now
provides rather comic entertainment (but wonderful music). Even those
of us closely involved in electronics did not foresee that a
development of the ancient art of writing on stone, lithography, would
result in millions of transistors being available on one chip,
changing the world forever, including granting new and sinister means
of control to those in authority.

Likewise, divination was greatly regarded in all cultures, ancient and
modern. Stars were observed, chickens and other animals slaughtered,
so that their steaming entrails could be examined to predict the
future, cards were shuffled and crystal balls peered into.
Comparatively recently the leader of the most powerful nation on earth
relied on the advice of astrologers.

Now divination has returned with, for example, the examination of the
entrails of ancient trees. Though the methods used are invalid (they
wrongly assume linearity) and have been comprehensively shown to be
irreproducible and misleading, the results have been paraded before
the world in defence of draconian sacrificial policies.

The main form of modern divination, however, is computer models. Forty
odd years ago an instruction passed round the Faculty of Engineering
of the University of London that no PhDs were to be awarded on the
basis of computer models unsupported by measurement. As T S Eliot
asked in Choruses from The Rock

Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?

Now, huge and generously funded university and government departments
do nothing but develop computer models, involving assumptions about
physical interactions that are still not understood by science. Their
dubious (to say the least) results are used by the new international
priesthood to frighten the people into conformity.

Puritans and killjoys

No one has bettered Mencken's definition of Puritanism - the haunting
fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. It is an unfortunate
characteristic of many varieties of religion that this characteristic
is to the fore and Global Warming is far from being an exception.
Nothing the proponents offer involves an improvement or even
maintenance of human contentment, quite the opposite in fact. You
might think that any philosophy of life would involve swings and
roundabouts, good and bad, but think again. Virtually everything you
enjoy is now sinful - holidays, driving your car, having a comfortable
temperature in your home, being free from the stink of rotting
garbage, and on and on.

As with the flagellants of old, for some people a feeling of
self-righteousness not only transcends all discomforts, but derives
from them. The rest of us have to be coerced into conformity.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that there are people who get their
kicks out of pushing other people around. The existence of little
pleasures of life, such as savouring a fine wine or cigar (and even
more so the proletarian equivalents) is intolerable to them. They will
exploit any means - the distortion of science, the suborning of weak
politicians, the repetition of mendacious propaganda - to achieve the
elimination of the hated practices. The eleventh commandment for the
killjoys is "Thou shalt not have fun", and global warming provides a
delightful playground for them.

Censorship and angles

Freedom of speech and publication is at the very heart of science.
Even the most foolish of hypotheses is allowed to be offered for
examination. In much of religion the opposite is true; challenging the
established dogma is heresy, for which the punishment has ranged from
ostracism to horrific torture and death. One of the greatest ironies
produced by the successful policy of entryism by the eco-theologians
is that it is none other than the Royal Society that has been
orchestrating the attempt to censor any deviation from establishment
beliefs. Authoritarian politicians, such as Congressman Brad Miller,
would give such suppression the force of law.

It is a curious repetition of history that those who advance the
hypothesis that the sun is the controlling element in changes of
climate are vilified, just as Galileo was, for supporting the
Copernican heliocentric description of the solar system. Yet the sun
is clearly the driver for climate - if it stopped shining, the earth's
temperature would drop to near absolute zero. In the establishment
dogma the sun is barely mentioned, while the puny efforts of mankind
are gratuitously magnified out of proportion. In a scientific approach
to climate, a full understanding of the behaviour of that solitary
driver would be the first prerequisite, but this is waived in the
interests of piety; so leading solar researchers have been deprived of
funding.

One of the most exploited ways of angling the news is by "ratchet
reporting". News of unusual warm weather, for example, is given
copious coverage, while cold weather is studiously ignored. Thus the
spring of 2007 was disastrously cold in parts of North America, with
ice-bound ships and snowed-off baseball, but this was kept secret from
the British, whose wonderful summery April was presented as though it
were bad news (and that in the land of rheumatism and bronchitis!).
The fact that Britain had no spring at all in 2006 was conveniently
forgotten, except as a basis of comparison to establish that 2007 was
substantially warmer.

That the media know that they are peddling untruths is demonstrated by
these tricks they get up to. If they were confident of the truth of
their case there would be no need to fake the coverage. They have been
frequently caught out faking their numbers and graphs, but only a few
internet surfers know about it. If you think you have a good case, you
can afford to present both sides, but they don't. The great majority
of the population have no idea that there is an alternative view. That
is not science, it is religion.

Control and taxation

Religion has always played an important part in the imposition of
authority. For many centuries it took the form of the "Divine Right of
Kings" or the "Mandate of Heaven". Once you get the people to believe,
you can get away with almost any imposition. The alliance between the
shaman and the legislator has long been the very foundation of
authoritarianism. Even when the dogma is a godless one, such as
Marxism, it is imposed with religious fervour, for that is the way to
induce conformity.

People now accept laws that restrict their liberty and standard of
living, which would once have provoked riots, because they are cloaked
in a quasi-religious formula of environmentalism. So-called
environmental burdens, for example, now greatly outweigh the
incremental effect of the poll tax that met with such violent
opposition in England, yet are now meekly accepted, as is the
parasitic presence of various forms of snooper, who even invade
people's dustbins.

Contradictions and irrationality

Traditional religions not only tolerated contradiction and
irrationality, they embrace them as part of the mystique. Words and
phrases are repeated ad nauseam and in strange contexts, until they
lose all meaning and become self-preserving mantras.

Contradictions and irrationality also abound in the modern theocratic
world. The EU, for example, gratuitously destroys a tiny industry
making traditional barometers, on the grounds of an irrational fear of
mercury, then imposes the use of fluorescent light bulbs that
distribute that same dreaded substance in huge quantities across the
continent, all on the basis of the threat of global warming.

People who have never heard of Wien or Planck confidently assert that
it is "obvious" that man-made CO2 will cause runaway warming of the
planet, when it is not at all obvious to many who are familiar with
the works of those gentlemen. It is obvious in the sense that it is
obvious that believers will have everlasting life or that a senseless
act of self-immolation will earn the eternal attentions of 72 virgins
in Paradise. The capacity to believe six impossible things before
breakfast has been restored from fantasy to accepted normality.

Wealth and power

Some organisms develop the ingredients to survive and multiply, so it
is with business and religions. It is characteristic of businesses
that they dispose of the entrepreneurs who create them and are taken
over by a different breed of corporate manager: so it is with
religions. The brutally suppressed troglodytes who were the early
Christians of Rome were a different breed from the cardinals, bishops
and abbots who bestrode mediaeval Europe and lived the opulent life.
There were also, of course, the humble and saintly mendicant friars.
The equivalents of all these varieties exist within the new movement.

Money is the basis of the new religion. It poured in from various
foundations (the so-called ketchup money) and na
 
Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm
>
> By John Brignell


[...]

It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
and pasted.

This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

"This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
that rain
down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
Issue
Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
(junk, pseudo-
or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
unnecessary
alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
catching
stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
depend on
creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
trying to
keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
will
not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
lie. The
aim here is to nail just a few of them."

The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
gratuitous lie".

So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
religious and not a scientific endeavor?
 
On Jun 12, 10:03 am, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> > By John Brignell

>
> [...]
>
> It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> and pasted.
>
> This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:
>
> "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> that rain
> down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> Issue
> Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> (junk, pseudo-
> or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> unnecessary
> alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> catching
> stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> depend on
> creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> trying to
> keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> will
> not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> lie. The
> aim here is to nail just a few of them."
>
> The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".
>
> Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> gratuitous lie".
>
> So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> religious and not a scientific endeavor?


There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to debunk the
global warming hysterics. The temperature has risen about 1 degree
Farenheit in the last 100 years. We cannot POSSIBLY predict with
confidence, on the basis of that information, that the temperature
will rise much more than that in the next 100 years. We can speculate
about accelerating trends, but they are just that -- speculations,
science fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything more than
that?

There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global warming
hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to discuss the
issue. Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor of
science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be specifically
trained in exploring climate change, as a specific scientific sub-
discipline, to have the proper "expertise" to understand the issues
involved. Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be a
bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly, greedy?
Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!
 
On Jun 12, 11:32 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:03 am, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > > Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> > > By John Brignell

>
> > [...]

>
> > It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> > engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> > lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> > and pasted.

>
> > This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>
> > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> > that rain
> > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> > Issue
> > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> > (junk, pseudo-
> > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> > unnecessary
> > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> > catching
> > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> > depend on
> > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> > trying to
> > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > will
> > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> > lie. The
> > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>
> > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> > crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> > almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> > notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>
> > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> > misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> > bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> > gratuitous lie".

>
> > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> > physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> > religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>
> There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to debunk the
> global warming hysterics. The temperature has risen about 1 degree
> Farenheit in the last 100 years. We cannot POSSIBLY predict with
> confidence, on the basis of that information, that the temperature
> will rise much more than that in the next 100 years. We can speculate
> about accelerating trends, but they are just that -- speculations,
> science fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything more than
> that?
>
> There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global warming
> hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to discuss the
> issue. Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
> scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor of
> science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be specifically
> trained in exploring climate change, as a specific scientific sub-
> discipline, to have the proper "expertise" to understand the issues
> involved. Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be a
> bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly, greedy?
> Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Can you provide one cogent argument against taking measures that
attempt to cope with the issue of global warming? Even if the
scientists are wrong and global warming is not man-induced and, is,
indeed, not even occurring, what possible problem arises from trying
to reduce the effluents we throw into the atmosphere? What possible
harm can come from trying to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?
How are we hurt if we develop cars that can get 80 MPG or that run on
an alternative fuel? How do we suffer if we build superinsulated,
energy efficient homes? How does it hurt if we use wind power and
solar power? How are we weakened if we find ways to permanently and
drastically reduce or even eliminate our dependence on foreign oil?

To me, and to a lot of concerned citizens, global warming is like
Pascal's wager. If we try to cope with it and global warming turns out
to be a hoax, the downside is cleaner air and water, lower energy
bills and less dependence on foreign oil. If we don't try to cope
with it and global warming turns out to be real, the downside is world-
wide catastrophe.

All I've ever seen from rightards on this subject are attempts to
debunk the arguments of enviornmentalists by quoting sources that are
funded by oil companies, or that contain your sort of simplistic
dismissal of a complex and perplexing subject. The main issues seem to
revolve around political perspectives that are not relevant to the
argument. So what if Al Gore is a proponent of enviornmental warmining
concerns? So is George Bush. So what if Michael More or some other
Liberal hobgoblin has jumped on the global warming bandwagon, that
doesn't mean there isn't a problem. You rightards are so damn
emotional, so damn fixed on your on prejudices that you simply can't
get out of your box, even if the future could be drastically affected
by your subbornness.
 
On Jun 12, 10:54 am, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 11:32 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 10:03 am, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>
> > > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> > > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > > > Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> > > > By John Brignell

>
> > > [...]

>
> > > It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> > > engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> > > lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> > > and pasted.

>
> > > This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>
> > > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> > > that rain
> > > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> > > Issue
> > > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> > > (junk, pseudo-
> > > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> > > unnecessary
> > > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> > > catching
> > > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> > > depend on
> > > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> > > trying to
> > > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > > will
> > > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> > > lie. The
> > > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>
> > > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> > > crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> > > almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> > > notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>
> > > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> > > misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> > > bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> > > gratuitous lie".

>
> > > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> > > physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> > > religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>
> > There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to debunk the
> > global warming hysterics. The temperature has risen about 1 degree
> > Farenheit in the last 100 years. We cannot POSSIBLY predict with
> > confidence, on the basis of that information, that the temperature
> > will rise much more than that in the next 100 years. We can speculate
> > about accelerating trends, but they are just that -- speculations,
> > science fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything more than
> > that?

>
> > There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global warming
> > hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to discuss the
> > issue. Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
> > scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor of
> > science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be specifically
> > trained in exploring climate change, as a specific scientific sub-
> > discipline, to have the proper "expertise" to understand the issues
> > involved. Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be a
> > bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly, greedy?
> > Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Can you provide one cogent argument against taking measures that
> attempt to cope with the issue of global warming? Even if the
> scientists are wrong and global warming is not man-induced and, is,
> indeed, not even occurring, what possible problem arises from trying
> to reduce the effluents we throw into the atmosphere? What possible
> harm can come from trying to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?
> How are we hurt if we develop cars that can get 80 MPG or that run on
> an alternative fuel? How do we suffer if we build superinsulated,
> energy efficient homes? How does it hurt if we use wind power and
> solar power? How are we weakened if we find ways to permanently and
> drastically reduce or even eliminate our dependence on foreign oil?
>
> To me, and to a lot of concerned citizens, global warming is like
> Pascal's wager. If we try to cope with it and global warming turns out
> to be a hoax, the downside is cleaner air and water, lower energy
> bills and less dependence on foreign oil. If we don't try to cope
> with it and global warming turns out to be real, the downside is world-
> wide catastrophe.
>
> All I've ever seen from rightards on this subject are attempts to
> debunk the arguments of enviornmentalists by quoting sources that are
> funded by oil companies, or that contain your sort of simplistic
> dismissal of a complex and perplexing subject. The main issues seem to
> revolve around political perspectives that are not relevant to the
> argument. So what if Al Gore is a proponent of enviornmental warmining
> concerns? So is George Bush. So what if Michael More or some other
> Liberal hobgoblin has jumped on the global warming bandwagon, that
> doesn't mean there isn't a problem. You rightards are so damn
> emotional, so damn fixed on your on prejudices that you simply can't
> get out of your box, even if the future could be drastically affected
> by your subbornness.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I hate to tell you this, but on most issues I'm pretty liberal. I
think George Bush should be impeached, the Iraq War is imperialism,
socialism has its points etc. etc. It's just that I have enough
scientific training to know scientific fraud when I see it. And it's
the rule, not the exception. Scientists are frauds. Professional
frauds. Professional liars. That is their training and expertise.

On the other hand, I certainly agree with you that pollution is a
major problem, largely because we are living on an overpopulated
planet. I have repeatedly emphasized that controlled nuclear fusion
is THE solution to our energy problems and, probably, would enable us
to get off this bloody planet and colonize outer space. I see a
connection between the obvious disinformation in the global warming
craze and the total failure of the physics community to develop
controlled nuclear fusion technologies. The powers that be don't want
it done. Free, clean energy would change everything, and the rich and
powerful like things the way they are. That's why practical private
inventors aren't being encouraged to develop fusion technologies --
only fuzzy-headed physicists playing with equations in their labs.
That's why the DOD classifies the most promising research and
technologies in the area of inertial containment and nanotechnologies,
making them unavailable. That's why ineffective pseudo-technologies
like solar and wind power are preferred to the real solution --
CONTROLLED NUCLEAR FUSION!!!!
 
So tell me, whats wrong with

Limiting Carbon Monoxide, Carbod Dioxide, sufuric acid, nitrus oxide,
methane, Sulfur dioxide, Nitrogen dioxide, and low atmosphere ozone.

Last I checked all those elements can kill you.


Smog? ever heard of Smog? yea that thick cloud of orange fog that
makes your eyes water and throat scratch which has been known to kill
people who breathe in too much of it. It's not like you can avoid it
either unless you travel 20 miles outside of the city.


So OK 1/2 of global warming is caused naturally, and humans contribute
the other 1/2. There's a figure out there that 80,000 tons of CO2
occures naturaly out of the 120,000 in our atmosphere. SO humans only
contribute 40,000 tons. Thats just 40,000 more tons of CO2 that nature
DIDN'T intend to deal with.


Jeeze at time I wish these Pro Pollution nay-sayers would get lung
cancer or run their car in a closed garage. These same people will
like to claim that chain smoking is perfectly healthy too.
 
On Jun 12, 11:32 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:03 am, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > > Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> > > By John Brignell

>
> > [...]

>
> > It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> > engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> > lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> > and pasted.

>
> > This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>
> > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> > that rain
> > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> > Issue
> > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> > (junk, pseudo-
> > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> > unnecessary
> > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> > catching
> > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> > depend on
> > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> > trying to
> > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > will
> > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> > lie. The
> > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>
> > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> > crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> > almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> > notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>
> > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> > misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> > bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> > gratuitous lie".

>
> > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> > physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> > religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>
> There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to debunk the
> global warming hysterics. The temperature has risen about 1 degree
> Farenheit in the last 100 years. We cannot POSSIBLY predict with
> confidence, on the basis of that information, that the temperature
> will rise much more than that in the next 100 years. We can speculate
> about accelerating trends, but they are just that -- speculations,
> science fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything more than
> that?
>
> There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global warming
> hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to discuss the
> issue.


True


> Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient.


No, but it helps.


> Having scientific training isn't sufficient.


No, but it helps.

> Even being a professor of science or engineering isn't sufficient!



>One must be specifically
> trained in exploring climate change, as a specific scientific sub-
> discipline, to have the proper "expertise" to understand the issues
> involved.


What good is that if there is insufficient quantities data to build
models that would reflect a more realistic dynamic of what is
happening with our climate?


The hysteria over CO2 is so far blown out of proportion it is
escalated beyond stupidity. Moreover, the idiots and crazies spewing
their stupidity on international TV are actually trying to convince
people that something can be done about the climate change in
progress!!! LMAO!! What a bunch of retards. If there is any
concern about anthropogenic CO2, it should be directed at the damage
it is doing to marine ecosystems.


> Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be a
> bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly, greedy?


Probably. I do not have a problem with investments toward legitimate
earth sciences. However, so far as the activist and alarmists behind
the global warming craze go, let the morons drown in their ilk. They
offer nothing but the promotion of a higher order of mental illness.


Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!-



>
> - Show quoted text -
 
Jerry Kraus wrote:
....

> It's just that I have enough scientific training to know
> scientific fraud when I see it.


What training was that, if you don't mind me asking..

--As a fellow liberal..
 
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:03:45 -0700, Spartakus <spartakus@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
>> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
>> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm
>>
>> By John Brignell

>
>[...]
>
>It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
>engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
>lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
>and pasted.
>
>This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:
>
> "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
>that rain
> down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
>Issue
> Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
>(junk, pseudo-
> or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
>unnecessary
> alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
>catching
> stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
>depend on
> creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
>trying to
> keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
>will
> not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
>lie. The
> aim here is to nail just a few of them."
>
>The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
>crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
>almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
>notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".
>
>Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
>misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
>bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
>gratuitous lie".
>
>So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
>physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
>religious and not a scientific endeavor?


No problem with the facts. The fasts are that climate changes. The
problems lie with the projections and the causation.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:54:14 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1778@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 12, 11:32 am, Jerry Kraus <jkraus_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 10:03 am, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>> > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
>> > > Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>>
>> > > By John Brignell

>>
>> > [...]

>>
>> > It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
>> > engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
>> > lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
>> > and pasted.

>>
>> > This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>>
>> > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
>> > that rain
>> > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
>> > Issue
>> > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
>> > (junk, pseudo-
>> > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
>> > unnecessary
>> > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
>> > catching
>> > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
>> > depend on
>> > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
>> > trying to
>> > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
>> > will
>> > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
>> > lie. The
>> > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>>
>> > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
>> > crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
>> > almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
>> > notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>>
>> > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
>> > misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
>> > bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
>> > gratuitous lie".

>>
>> > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
>> > physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
>> > religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>>
>> There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to debunk the
>> global warming hysterics. The temperature has risen about 1 degree
>> Farenheit in the last 100 years. We cannot POSSIBLY predict with
>> confidence, on the basis of that information, that the temperature
>> will rise much more than that in the next 100 years. We can speculate
>> about accelerating trends, but they are just that -- speculations,
>> science fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything more than
>> that?
>>
>> There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global warming
>> hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to discuss the
>> issue. Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
>> scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor of
>> science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be specifically
>> trained in exploring climate change, as a specific scientific sub-
>> discipline, to have the proper "expertise" to understand the issues
>> involved. Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be a
>> bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly, greedy?
>> Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

>
>Can you provide one cogent argument against taking measures that
>attempt to cope with the issue of global warming? Even if the
>scientists are wrong and global warming is not man-induced and, is,
>indeed, not even occurring, what possible problem arises from trying
>to reduce the effluents we throw into the atmosphere? What possible
>harm can come from trying to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?
>How are we hurt if we develop cars that can get 80 MPG or that run on
>an alternative fuel? How do we suffer if we build superinsulated,
>energy efficient homes? How does it hurt if we use wind power and
>solar power? How are we weakened if we find ways to permanently and
>drastically reduce or even eliminate our dependence on foreign oil?
>
>To me, and to a lot of concerned citizens, global warming is like
>Pascal's wager. If we try to cope with it and global warming turns out
>to be a hoax, the downside is cleaner air and water, lower energy
>bills and less dependence on foreign oil. If we don't try to cope
>with it and global warming turns out to be real, the downside is world-
>wide catastrophe.
>
>All I've ever seen from rightards on this subject are attempts to
>debunk the arguments of enviornmentalists by quoting sources that are
>funded by oil companies, or that contain your sort of simplistic
>dismissal of a complex and perplexing subject. The main issues seem to
>revolve around political perspectives that are not relevant to the
>argument. So what if Al Gore is a proponent of enviornmental warmining
>concerns? So is George Bush. So what if Michael More or some other
>Liberal hobgoblin has jumped on the global warming bandwagon, that
>doesn't mean there isn't a problem. You rightards are so damn
>emotional, so damn fixed on your on prejudices that you simply can't
>get out of your box, even if the future could be drastically affected
>by your subbornness.


When you don't what the real problem is or there is no problem then
doing "something" has the same value as doing nothing.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:15:35 -0500, "Server 13" <its@casual.com>
wrote:

>
>"Captain Compassion" <daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote in message
>news:hu8t63l5heko49eaul20e9tadqshipfv8v@4ax.com...
>> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
>> Number Watch, June 2007
>> http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
>rofl Hey, nice k00k site!
>

It's a pleasure to serve you, :)


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:


> > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > > Number Watch, June 2007
> > > http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm
> > >
> > > By John Brignell


[...]

> > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious
> > number-crunching to be found in the long screed you copied
> > and pasted. It's almost as if the author was "trying to keep
> > numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > will not make comparisons".
> >
> > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes
> > and misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just
> > making up a bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his
> > "stock in trade is the gratuitous lie".
> >
> > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in
> > terms of physical laws and facts that can be measured and
> > documented a religious and not a scientific endeavor?


> There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to
> debunk the global warming hysterics. The temperature has
> risen about 1 degree Farenheit in the last 100 years.


You didn't answer the question. Please try again.

But to respond to your assertion, serious number-crunching is needed
because you are talking about the future habitability of this planet.
With the stakes that high, you owe us more than a lot of handwaving.

Something to think about - what does temperature measure? Answer:
energy. How many extra BTUs of energy do you need to warm your
bedroom one degree? Answer: not much. How many extra BTUs of energy
do you need to warm an entire planet one degree? Answer: a lot!
What's the First Law of Conservation of Energy? Answer: energy is
neither created or destroyed.

The extra energy I'm talking about has to find things to do - like
melt a polar ice cap or ruin a crop or fry a bunch of Texans or whip
up an unprecedented hurricane that went Cat 5 3 times last summer
during its 3-week hayride around the central Pacific. That would be
Hurricane Ioke - you probably never heard of it, because it did not
make landfall near any major population centers.

Right now, a lot of that extra energy is occupied with melting polar
ice caps and glaciers. You see, it takes more energy to melt ice than
to raise the temperature of ice (or water) by one degree. At present,
about 20% of the Arctic polar ice cap is melted, parts of the
Antarctic polar ice have melted and there have been concomitant, large-
scale losses of glacial ice, particularly in Greenland and Europe. At
the present rate, the Arctic polar ice cap will be gone by 2050. The
latest news is that the melt rate is accelerating.

There's numbers in those facts for crunching - big numbers.

> We cannot POSSIBLY predict with confidence, on the basis of that
> information, that the temperature will rise much more than that
> in the next 100 years.


If that was the only information we had, you might have a point.
Unfortunately, there are many corroborating facts that point to major
shifts in climate in the decades ahead and that we can ameliorate the
worst effects by reining in our use of carbon-based energy sources.
And there is no downside for doing so.

> We can speculate about accelerating trends, but they are just
> that -- speculations, science fiction, video games. Why treat
> them as anything more than that?


Because these "speculations, science fictions and video games" as you
call them are being validated every day by climate events. I'd say
that is sufficient reason for taking them seriously.

> There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global
> warming hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to
> discuss the issue.


Jerry, the only "hysterics" here are the global warming deniers. They
are the ones setting up and knocking down the strawmen,
misrepresenting data and engaging in stereotyping, while not citing
one scintilla of published scientific evidence (at least not
accurately). It's almost is if you were projecting here.

Projection: "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to
other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot
accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks
insight into his own impulses and traits."

> Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
> scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor
> of science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be
> specifically trained in exploring climate change, as a
> specific scientific sub-discipline, to have the proper
> "expertise" to understand the issues involved.


All right, Jerry, how many climate scientists have written anti-global
warming screeds similar to Brignell's? How many climate scientists
have characterized theories about global warming as religious in
nature?

> Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be
> a bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly,
> greedy? Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!


Someone said something like the following that applies here:

"... they are just that -- speculations, science
fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything
more than that?"

Oh, that was YOU! Tell me, Jerry, do you have any evidence that
climate scientists are confused, greedy or as you said, "a bit bent"?
 
Igor The Terrible <igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:

> The hysteria over CO2 is so far blown out of proportion it is
> escalated beyond stupidity. Moreover, the idiots and crazies
> spewing their stupidity on international TV are actually trying
> to convince people that something can be done about the
> climate change in progress!!! LMAO!! What a bunch of
> retards. If there is any concern about anthropogenic CO2,
> it should be directed at the damage it is doing to marine
> ecosystems.


[...]

> I do not have a problem with investments toward legitimate
> earth sciences. However, so far as the activist and alarmists
> behind the global warming craze go, let the morons drown in
> their ilk. They offer nothing but the promotion of a higher
> order of mental illness.


I can't help noticing that in your post about "global warming
hysteria", you yourself use the language of hysteria, stupidity,
idiocy and craziness. There is no rhyme or reason to anything you say
- some of your sentences are incoherent. It's as if you were some
sort of alarmist or possibly mentally ill. Pray tell, what
constitutes a "legitimate earth science"?
 
On Jun 12, 3:48 pm, Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net>
wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:03:45 -0700,Spartakus<sparta...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>
> >> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> >> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> >> By John Brignell

>
> >[...]

>
> >It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> >engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> >lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> >and pasted.

>
> >This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>
> > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> >that rain
> > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> >Issue
> > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> >(junk, pseudo-
> > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> >unnecessary
> > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> >catching
> > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> >depend on
> > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> >trying to
> > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> >will
> > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> >lie. The
> > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>
> >The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> >crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> >almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> >notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>
> >Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> >misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> >bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> >gratuitous lie".

>
> >So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> >physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> >religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>
> No problem with the facts. The fasts are that climate changes. The
> problems lie with the projections and the causation.


The fact is that through most of human history, there was about
260-280 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere. The fact is that CO2 levels
started ramping up after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution
some 250 years ago. The fact is that CO2 levels are now about about
350 ppm, higher than at any other time during human history. The fact
is that the rate of anthropogenic CO2 emissions continue to increase
instead of leveling off or declining.

It appears to me that this world is quite hospitable to human life
with CO2 at less than 300 ppm and we should be working on ways of
maintaining our habitat as best we can.
 
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:40:59 -0700, Spartakus <spartakus@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 12, 3:48 pm, Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:03:45 -0700,Spartakus<sparta...@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:

>>
>> >> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
>> >> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>>
>> >> By John Brignell

>>
>> >[...]

>>
>> >It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
>> >engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
>> >lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
>> >and pasted.

>>
>> >This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:

>>
>> > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
>> >that rain
>> > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
>> >Issue
>> > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
>> >(junk, pseudo-
>> > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
>> >unnecessary
>> > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
>> >catching
>> > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
>> >depend on
>> > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
>> >trying to
>> > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
>> >will
>> > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
>> >lie. The
>> > aim here is to nail just a few of them."

>>
>> >The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
>> >crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
>> >almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
>> >notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".

>>
>> >Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
>> >misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
>> >bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
>> >gratuitous lie".

>>
>> >So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
>> >physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
>> >religious and not a scientific endeavor?

>>
>> No problem with the facts. The fasts are that climate changes. The
>> problems lie with the projections and the causation.

>
>The fact is that through most of human history, there was about
>260-280 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere. The fact is that CO2 levels
>started ramping up after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution
>some 250 years ago. The fact is that CO2 levels are now about about
>350 ppm, higher than at any other time during human history. The fact
>is that the rate of anthropogenic CO2 emissions continue to increase
>instead of leveling off or declining.
>
>It appears to me that this world is quite hospitable to human life
>with CO2 at less than 300 ppm and we should be working on ways of
>maintaining our habitat as best we can.
>

Another fact. The problem remains that of causation and projection.

I don't see any real possibility of decreasing CO2 in a increasingly
developing world.

I think that anybody whose idea about how to fix the world starts off
by, "First, we`re going to change human nature," is doomed. -- Martin
Eberhard



--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
On Jun 12, 8:24 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
> > > > GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > > > Number Watch, June 2007
> > > >http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

>
> > > > By John Brignell

>
> [...]
>
>
>
>
>
> > > The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious
> > > number-crunching to be found in the long screed you copied
> > > and pasted. It's almost as if the author was "trying to keep
> > > numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > > will not make comparisons".

>
> > > Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes
> > > and misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just
> > > making up a bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his
> > > "stock in trade is the gratuitous lie".

>
> > > So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in
> > > terms of physical laws and facts that can be measured and
> > > documented a religious and not a scientific endeavor?

> > There is, actually, no serious number crunching required to
> > debunk the global warming hysterics. The temperature has
> > risen about 1 degree Farenheit in the last 100 years.

>
> You didn't answer the question. Please try again.
>
> But to respond to your assertion, serious number-crunching is needed
> because you are talking about the future habitability of this planet.
> With the stakes that high, you owe us more than a lot of handwaving.
>
> Something to think about - what does temperature measure? Answer:
> energy. How many extra BTUs of energy do you need to warm your
> bedroom one degree? Answer: not much. How many extra BTUs of energy
> do you need to warm an entire planet one degree? Answer: a lot!
> What's the First Law of Conservation of Energy? Answer: energy is
> neither created or destroyed.
>
> The extra energy I'm talking about has to find things to do - like
> melt a polar ice cap or ruin a crop or fry a bunch of Texans or whip
> up an unprecedented hurricane that went Cat 5 3 times last summer
> during its 3-week hayride around the central Pacific. That would be
> Hurricane Ioke - you probably never heard of it, because it did not
> make landfall near any major population centers.
>
> Right now, a lot of that extra energy is occupied with melting polar
> ice caps and glaciers. You see, it takes more energy to melt ice than
> to raise the temperature of ice (or water) by one degree. At present,
> about 20% of the Arctic polar ice cap is melted, parts of the
> Antarctic polar ice have melted and there have been concomitant, large-
> scale losses of glacial ice, particularly in Greenland and Europe. At
> the present rate, the Arctic polar ice cap will be gone by 2050. The
> latest news is that the melt rate is accelerating.
>
> There's numbers in those facts for crunching - big numbers.
>
> > We cannot POSSIBLY predict with confidence, on the basis of that
> > information, that the temperature will rise much more than that
> > in the next 100 years.

>
> If that was the only information we had, you might have a point.
> Unfortunately, there are many corroborating facts that point to major
> shifts in climate in the decades ahead and that we can ameliorate the
> worst effects by reining in our use of carbon-based energy sources.
> And there is no downside for doing so.
>
> > We can speculate about accelerating trends, but they are just
> > that -- speculations, science fiction, video games. Why treat
> > them as anything more than that?

>
> Because these "speculations, science fictions and video games" as you
> call them are being validated every day by climate events. I'd say
> that is sufficient reason for taking them seriously.
>
> > There is, I have noticed, great emphasis placed by the global
> > warming hysterics on having the correct "qualifications" to
> > discuss the issue.

>
> Jerry, the only "hysterics" here are the global warming deniers. They
> are the ones setting up and knocking down the strawmen,
> misrepresenting data and engaging in stereotyping, while not citing
> one scintilla of published scientific evidence (at least not
> accurately). It's almost is if you were projecting here.
>
> Projection: "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to
> other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot
> accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks
> insight into his own impulses and traits."
>
> > Being educated and intelligent isn't sufficient. Having
> > scientific training isn't sufficient. Even being a professor
> > of science or engineering isn't sufficient! One must be
> > specifically trained in exploring climate change, as a
> > specific scientific sub-discipline, to have the proper
> > "expertise" to understand the issues involved.

>
> All right, Jerry, how many climate scientists have written anti-global
> warming screeds similar to Brignell's? How many climate scientists
> have characterized theories about global warming as religious in
> nature?
>
> > Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be
> > a bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly,
> > greedy? Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!

>
> Someone said something like the following that applies here:
>
> "... they are just that -- speculations, science
> fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything
> more than that?"
>
> Oh, that was YOU! Tell me, Jerry, do you have any evidence that
> climate scientists are confused, greedy or as you said, "a bit bent"?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


The burden of proof is on you, not me. Much as you'd like to reverse
the situation. If you claim that the world is in great peril, and
something must be done to save it, it's not my job to prove that
you're wrong!

A simple example: Albert Einstein claimed just after the development
of the H-bomb, that such bombs could and would "radioactively poison
the atmosophere" destroying all life on the planet. As a matter of
fact, H-bombs do not produce any primay radioactive material. They
are triggered using small A-bombs, which do, but not in terribly large
quantities. Einstein was, of course, not a fool. But he was highly
political, and a pacifist. He lied, quite intentionally, and used his
credentials as a "great scientist" to discourage nuclear war. A
laudable goal. But still a lie.

You have speculations. You have models. You have no clear proof, and
your evidence is selective. That is sufficient to discredit it.
 
Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:


[--snip of a bunch of stuff I said but Jerry did not respond to--]

> > > Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be
> > > a bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly,
> > > greedy? Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!


> > Someone said something like the following that applies here:
> >
> > "... they are just that -- speculations, science
> > fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything
> > more than that?"
> >
> > Oh, that was YOU! Tell me, Jerry, do you have any evidence
> > that climate scientists are confused, greedy or as you said,
> > "a bit bent"?


> The burden of proof is on you, not me. Much as you'd like to
> reverse the situation.


The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim. In
the previous post, you insinuated that climate scientists who support
anthropogenic global warming are confused or greedy or just a bit
bent. That's YOUR claim, Jerry. Do you have evidence to support it?

> If you claim that the world is in great peril, and something
> must be done to save it, it's not my job to prove that you're
> wrong!


In my previous response to you, I described how a one-degree increase
in the average global temperature can cause big changes in climate and
the environment. You chose to ignore that text, focusing instead on
my last question and pretending that I was passing the burden of proof
about global warming to you. That's not very smart or honest, Jerry.

> A simple example: Albert Einstein claimed just after the
> development of the H-bomb, that such bombs could and would
> "radioactively poison the atmosophere" destroying all life
> on the planet. As a matter of fact, H-bombs do not produce
> any primay radioactive material. They are triggered using
> small A-bombs, which do, but not in terribly large
> quantities. Einstein was, of course, not a fool. But he
> was highly political, and a pacifist. He lied, quite
> intentionally, and used his credentials as a "great
> scientist" to discourage nuclear war. A laudable goal.
> But still a lie.


Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, have you never heard of "einsteinium"? It's a
synthetic and highly radioactive element that is produced by nuclear
fusion, as in an H-bomb explosion. In fact, it was first discovered
in the debris at Eniwetok Atoll after the first H-bomb test in 1952.

I'm surprised that someone with an avid interest in nuclear fusion
like you wouldn't know this. Einstein did not lie. It appears that
you lied. If the case against global warming is such a slam dunk, why
do you deniers resort to such tactics?
 
Captain Compassion dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net wrote:

> I don't see any real possibility of decreasing CO2 in
> a increasingly developing world.


Thomas Watson, an otherwise astute business leader, thought that
there'd never be more than five or six computers in operation in the
entire world at any one time, and so resisted IBM's entry into the
computer field.
 
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:46:00 -0700, Spartakus <spartakus@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>Captain Compassion dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net wrote:
>
>> I don't see any real possibility of decreasing CO2 in
>> a increasingly developing world.

>
>Thomas Watson, an otherwise astute business leader, thought that
>there'd never be more than five or six computers in operation in the
>entire world at any one time, and so resisted IBM's entry into the
>computer field.


More computers = More progress. Less energy = Less Progress.

Let me know when the people of the world voluntary stop using
transportation, heating their homes and reading and working after
dark.


--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.

Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS

Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion

"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.

Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
 
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