P
Phlip
Guest
> The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
Prove it!
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
Prove it!
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
S
Spartakus
Guest
"Phlip" <phlip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
> Prove it!
Ah, a real smart aleck! I like that.
Presumption of innocence, for example.
> > The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
> Prove it!
Ah, a real smart aleck! I like that.
Presumption of innocence, for example.
C
Captain Compassion
Guest
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:18:53 -0700, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
>
>Prove it!
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
wrote:
>> The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
>
>Prove it!
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
P
Phlip
Guest
Captain Compassion wrote:
> More computers = More progress. Less energy = Less Progress.
>
> Let me know when the people of the world voluntary stop using
> transportation, heating their homes and reading and working after
> dark.
Google "Pair Programming". It makes the commute worthwhile.
(Those of you who are not programmers may stay home, and leave the >cough<
trivial details up to us! Don't worry your pretty heads about what we are up
to behind the scenes!
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
> More computers = More progress. Less energy = Less Progress.
>
> Let me know when the people of the world voluntary stop using
> transportation, heating their homes and reading and working after
> dark.
Google "Pair Programming". It makes the commute worthwhile.
(Those of you who are not programmers may stay home, and leave the >cough<
trivial details up to us! Don't worry your pretty heads about what we are up
to behind the scenes!
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
P
Phlip
Guest
>> > The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim.
>
>> Prove it!
>
> Ah, a real smart aleck! I like that.
>
> Presumption of innocence, for example.
The burden applies to a scored debate, such as a trial or debate club.
In an open forum, the quality of rhetoric is important too. And so is
revealing details that would generate >500,000 confirming Google hits if
sought. ;-)
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
>
>> Prove it!
>
> Ah, a real smart aleck! I like that.
>
> Presumption of innocence, for example.
The burden applies to a scored debate, such as a trial or debate club.
In an open forum, the quality of rhetoric is important too. And so is
revealing details that would generate >500,000 confirming Google hits if
sought. ;-)
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
P
Phlip
Guest
> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
I thought Carl [snap-crackle-rip-blub-blub-blub] Sagan knew better than to
indulge in "fallacy of excluded middle" there. ;-)
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
I thought Carl [snap-crackle-rip-blub-blub-blub] Sagan knew better than to
indulge in "fallacy of excluded middle" there. ;-)
--
Phlip
http://flea.sourceforge.net/PiglegToo_1.html
C
Captain Compassion
Guest
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:13:34 -0700, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
>
>I thought Carl [snap-crackle-rip-blub-blub-blub] Sagan knew better than to
>indulge in "fallacy of excluded middle" there. ;-)
Perhaps we can use one of his nuclear winters about now.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
wrote:
>> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
>
>I thought Carl [snap-crackle-rip-blub-blub-blub] Sagan knew better than to
>indulge in "fallacy of excluded middle" there. ;-)
Perhaps we can use one of his nuclear winters about now.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
C
Captain Compassion
Guest
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:57:54 -0700, "Phlip" <phlipcpp@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Captain Compassion wrote:
>
>> More computers = More progress. Less energy = Less Progress.
>>
>> Let me know when the people of the world voluntary stop using
>> transportation, heating their homes and reading and working after
>> dark.
>
>Google "Pair Programming". It makes the commute worthwhile.
>
>(Those of you who are not programmers may stay home, and leave the >cough<
>trivial details up to us! Don't worry your pretty heads about what we are up
>to behind the scenes!
This is the fallacy of synergy. It also will only work when both
programmers or comparable competence. Usually you will end up with
both coders screaming at each other.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
wrote:
>Captain Compassion wrote:
>
>> More computers = More progress. Less energy = Less Progress.
>>
>> Let me know when the people of the world voluntary stop using
>> transportation, heating their homes and reading and working after
>> dark.
>
>Google "Pair Programming". It makes the commute worthwhile.
>
>(Those of you who are not programmers may stay home, and leave the >cough<
>trivial details up to us! Don't worry your pretty heads about what we are up
>to behind the scenes!
This is the fallacy of synergy. It also will only work when both
programmers or comparable competence. Usually you will end up with
both coders screaming at each other.
--
There may come a time when the CO2 police will wander the earth telling
the poor and the dispossed how many dung chips they can put on their
cook fires. -- Captain Compassion.
Wherever I go it will be well with me, for it was well with me here, not
on account of the place, but of my judgments which I shall carry away
with me, for no one can deprive me of these; on the contrary, they alone
are my property, and cannot be taken away, and to possess them suffices
me wherever I am or whatever I do. -- EPICTETUS
Celibacy in healthy human beings is a form of
insanity. -- Captain Compassion
"Civilization is the interval between Ice Ages." -- Will Durant.
Joseph R. Darancette
daranc@NOSPAMcharter.net
I
Igor The Terrible
Guest
On Jun 12, 9:40 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 3:48 pm, Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:03:45 -0700,Spartakus<sparta...@my-deja.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
> > >> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > >> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm
>
> > >> By John Brignell
>
> > >[...]
>
> > >It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> > >engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> > >lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> > >and pasted.
>
> > >This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:
>
> > > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> > >that rain
> > > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> > >Issue
> > > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> > >(junk, pseudo-
> > > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> > >unnecessary
> > > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> > >catching
> > > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> > >depend on
> > > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> > >trying to
> > > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > >will
> > > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> > >lie. The
> > > aim here is to nail just a few of them."
>
> > >The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> > >crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> > >almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> > >notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".
>
> > >Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> > >misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> > >bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> > >gratuitous lie".
>
> > >So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> > >physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> > >religious and not a scientific endeavor?
>
> > No problem with the facts. The fasts are that climate changes. The
> > problems lie with the projections and the causation.
>
> The fact is that through most of human history, there was about
> 260-280 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere. The fact is that CO2 levels
> started ramping up after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution
> some 250 years ago. The fact is that CO2 levels are now about about
> 350 ppm, higher than at any other time during human history. The fact
> is that the rate of anthropogenic CO2 emissions continue to increase
> instead of leveling off or declining.
Hmm....So you are saying all the CO2 is uniformly distributed across
the planet at concentrations of 350 ppm? What are the concentrations
in the carbon sinks across the planet?
There have been scores of volcanic eruptions, forest fires, etc...and
hasn't that also contributed to the CO2 levels?
How are you making the distinction on how much CO2 emissions humans
are responsible for and what the earth is causing?
>
> It appears to me that this world is quite hospitable to human life
> with CO2 at less than 300 ppm and we should be working on ways of
> maintaining our habitat as best we can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
> On Jun 12, 3:48 pm, Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:03:45 -0700,Spartakus<sparta...@my-deja.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Captain Compassion <dar...@NOSPAMcharter.net> wrote:
>
> > >> GLOBAL WARMING AS RELIGION AND NOT SCIENCE
> > >> Number Watch, June 2007http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm
>
> > >> By John Brignell
>
> > >[...]
>
> > >It appears that Brignell's field of expertise is electrical
> > >engineering, specializing in instrumentation. That would explain the
> > >lack of specifics regarding climate change in the screed you copied
> > >and pasted.
>
> > >This is the "mission statement" for numberwatch.co.uk:
>
> > > "This site is devoted to the monitoring of the misleading numbers
> > >that rain
> > > down on us via the media. Whether they are generated by Single
> > >Issue
> > > Fanatics (SIFs), politicians, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists
> > >(junk, pseudo-
> > > or just bad), such numbers swamp the media, generating
> > >unnecessary
> > > alarm and panic. They are seized upon by media, hungry for eye-
> > >catching
> > > stories. There is a growing band of people whose livelihoods
> > >depend on
> > > creating and maintaining panic. There are also some who are
> > >trying to
> > > keep numbers away from your notice and others who hope that you
> > >will
> > > not make comparisons. Their stock in trade is the gratuitous
> > >lie. The
> > > aim here is to nail just a few of them."
>
> > >The funny thing here is that there is not one bit of serious number-
> > >crunching to be found in the long screed you copied and pasted. It's
> > >almost as if the author was "trying to keep numbers away from your
> > >notice and others who hope that you will not make comparisons".
>
> > >Instead, Brignell relied on the usual strawmen, stereotypes and
> > >misrepresentations. Almost as if the author was just making up a
> > >bunch of ****. In fact, it's almost as if his "stock in trade is the
> > >gratuitous lie".
>
> > >So tell us, "Captain" - why is explaining climate change in terms of
> > >physical laws and facts that can be measured and documented a
> > >religious and not a scientific endeavor?
>
> > No problem with the facts. The fasts are that climate changes. The
> > problems lie with the projections and the causation.
>
> The fact is that through most of human history, there was about
> 260-280 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere. The fact is that CO2 levels
> started ramping up after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution
> some 250 years ago. The fact is that CO2 levels are now about about
> 350 ppm, higher than at any other time during human history. The fact
> is that the rate of anthropogenic CO2 emissions continue to increase
> instead of leveling off or declining.
Hmm....So you are saying all the CO2 is uniformly distributed across
the planet at concentrations of 350 ppm? What are the concentrations
in the carbon sinks across the planet?
There have been scores of volcanic eruptions, forest fires, etc...and
hasn't that also contributed to the CO2 levels?
How are you making the distinction on how much CO2 emissions humans
are responsible for and what the earth is causing?
>
> It appears to me that this world is quite hospitable to human life
> with CO2 at less than 300 ppm and we should be working on ways of
> maintaining our habitat as best we can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
J
Jerry Kraus
Guest
On Jun 13, 8:44 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> [--snip of a bunch of stuff I said but Jerry did not respond to--]
>
> > > > Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be
> > > > a bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly,
> > > > greedy? Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!
> > > Someone said something like the following that applies here:
>
> > > "... they are just that -- speculations, science
> > > fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything
> > > more than that?"
>
> > > Oh, that was YOU! Tell me, Jerry, do you have any evidence
> > > that climate scientists are confused, greedy or as you said,
> > > "a bit bent"?
> > The burden of proof is on you, not me. Much as you'd like to
> > reverse the situation.
>
> The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim. In
> the previous post, you insinuated that climate scientists who support
> anthropogenic global warming are confused or greedy or just a bit
> bent. That's YOUR claim, Jerry. Do you have evidence to support it?
>
> > If you claim that the world is in great peril, and something
> > must be done to save it, it's not my job to prove that you're
> > wrong!
>
> In my previous response to you, I described how a one-degree increase
> in the average global temperature can cause big changes in climate and
> the environment. You chose to ignore that text, focusing instead on
> my last question and pretending that I was passing the burden of proof
> about global warming to you. That's not very smart or honest, Jerry.
>
> > A simple example: Albert Einstein claimed just after the
> > development of the H-bomb, that such bombs could and would
> > "radioactively poison the atmosophere" destroying all life
> > on the planet. As a matter of fact, H-bombs do not produce
> > any primay radioactive material. They are triggered using
> > small A-bombs, which do, but not in terribly large
> > quantities. Einstein was, of course, not a fool. But he
> > was highly political, and a pacifist. He lied, quite
> > intentionally, and used his credentials as a "great
> > scientist" to discourage nuclear war. A laudable goal.
> > But still a lie.
>
> Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, have you never heard of "einsteinium"? It's a
> synthetic and highly radioactive element that is produced by nuclear
> fusion, as in an H-bomb explosion. In fact, it was first discovered
> in the debris at Eniwetok Atoll after the first H-bomb test in 1952.
>
> I'm surprised that someone with an avid interest in nuclear fusion
> like you wouldn't know this. Einstein did not lie. It appears that
> you lied. If the case against global warming is such a slam dunk, why
> do you deniers resort to such tactics?
I am not making a case against the technical existence of global
warming, or for that matter, global cooling. The climate changes all
the time. I am not arguing against analyzing what, if anything,
should be done to control and/or deal with climate change. I am
arguing that there is no particular evidence of any very catastrophic,
or even significant, or even unusual climate change occurring at this
time in history. And there is no compelling, clear proof that
catastrophic or unusual climate change IS occurring at this time.
That's all. The burden of proof is on the global warming crowd to
prove something unusual is happening.
Regarding Einsteinium, microscopic quantities of radioactive isotopes
having half-lives of a few days are rather unlikely to "radioactively
poison the atmosphere" wiping out all life on earth. Makes about as
much sense as global warming, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsteinium
> Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > Jerry Kraus jkraus_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> [--snip of a bunch of stuff I said but Jerry did not respond to--]
>
> > > > Is there any possibilty at all, that this field might be
> > > > a bit bent? That they're a bit confused, or, just possibly,
> > > > greedy? Naaaaaaaaahhhh!!!
> > > Someone said something like the following that applies here:
>
> > > "... they are just that -- speculations, science
> > > fiction, video games. Why treat them as anything
> > > more than that?"
>
> > > Oh, that was YOU! Tell me, Jerry, do you have any evidence
> > > that climate scientists are confused, greedy or as you said,
> > > "a bit bent"?
> > The burden of proof is on you, not me. Much as you'd like to
> > reverse the situation.
>
> The burden of proof is on the person making the affirmative claim. In
> the previous post, you insinuated that climate scientists who support
> anthropogenic global warming are confused or greedy or just a bit
> bent. That's YOUR claim, Jerry. Do you have evidence to support it?
>
> > If you claim that the world is in great peril, and something
> > must be done to save it, it's not my job to prove that you're
> > wrong!
>
> In my previous response to you, I described how a one-degree increase
> in the average global temperature can cause big changes in climate and
> the environment. You chose to ignore that text, focusing instead on
> my last question and pretending that I was passing the burden of proof
> about global warming to you. That's not very smart or honest, Jerry.
>
> > A simple example: Albert Einstein claimed just after the
> > development of the H-bomb, that such bombs could and would
> > "radioactively poison the atmosophere" destroying all life
> > on the planet. As a matter of fact, H-bombs do not produce
> > any primay radioactive material. They are triggered using
> > small A-bombs, which do, but not in terribly large
> > quantities. Einstein was, of course, not a fool. But he
> > was highly political, and a pacifist. He lied, quite
> > intentionally, and used his credentials as a "great
> > scientist" to discourage nuclear war. A laudable goal.
> > But still a lie.
>
> Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, have you never heard of "einsteinium"? It's a
> synthetic and highly radioactive element that is produced by nuclear
> fusion, as in an H-bomb explosion. In fact, it was first discovered
> in the debris at Eniwetok Atoll after the first H-bomb test in 1952.
>
> I'm surprised that someone with an avid interest in nuclear fusion
> like you wouldn't know this. Einstein did not lie. It appears that
> you lied. If the case against global warming is such a slam dunk, why
> do you deniers resort to such tactics?
I am not making a case against the technical existence of global
warming, or for that matter, global cooling. The climate changes all
the time. I am not arguing against analyzing what, if anything,
should be done to control and/or deal with climate change. I am
arguing that there is no particular evidence of any very catastrophic,
or even significant, or even unusual climate change occurring at this
time in history. And there is no compelling, clear proof that
catastrophic or unusual climate change IS occurring at this time.
That's all. The burden of proof is on the global warming crowd to
prove something unusual is happening.
Regarding Einsteinium, microscopic quantities of radioactive isotopes
having half-lives of a few days are rather unlikely to "radioactively
poison the atmosphere" wiping out all life on earth. Makes about as
much sense as global warming, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsteinium
B
book
Guest
If you believe that global warming is man-made, or even if you don't,
you should read about how any country, even one like North Korea,
could use global warming to alter the state of world affairs. A story
describing this is available online at:
www.TheDragonOption.com
Check it out. It's worthwhile reading.
you should read about how any country, even one like North Korea,
could use global warming to alter the state of world affairs. A story
describing this is available online at:
www.TheDragonOption.com
Check it out. It's worthwhile reading.
J
Jerry Kraus
Guest
On Jun 15, 11:22 am, book <b...@thedragonoption.com> wrote:
> If you believe that global warming is man-made, or even if you don't,
> you should read about how any country, even one like North Korea,
> could use global warming to alter the state of world affairs. A story
> describing this is available online at:
>
> www.TheDragonOption.com
>
> Check it out. It's worthwhile reading.
It's amusing science fiction. Like global warming.
> If you believe that global warming is man-made, or even if you don't,
> you should read about how any country, even one like North Korea,
> could use global warming to alter the state of world affairs. A story
> describing this is available online at:
>
> www.TheDragonOption.com
>
> Check it out. It's worthwhile reading.
It's amusing science fiction. Like global warming.