Hugo VS. KVH: A Battle of Socio-Political and Economic Idealogies

eisanbt

New member
During a late night/afternoon exchange of opinions I thought it a lovely idea to see what results would be stumbled accross from a pointy stick fight between our resident Commie KVH and our resident true-capitalist Hugo.

Upon the realization that geological circumstances would inhibit such a humourous battle I've decided to settle for a debate between the 2 lads and hope that somebody (Nudges Phreak) Might set up a poll of sorts for us for the novelty of guessing in advance who'll come out on top.

SO to get things started,

Resolve: Marx's idea of a state controled economy is not only unrealistic in that it is too complexe to properly function under human guidence but it limits the ability of the market to produce the greatest amount of wealth for a nation which is ideal as the greater wealth provides for all who contribute to its production.

Lets make Karl and Adam proad!

 
Not too complex at all. Simply keep the economy nationalized so we don't have corporate ***** seizing power and dominating our lives. GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO MEET PROTOCALS. Scared of a socio-fascist dictatorship forming and doing the same thing as the corporate pigs? LET THE PEOPLE STEP IN. (IE: Impeach the ******* and elect someone who can do the job without being a greedy sack of ****)

The greater wealth doesn't provide to all. Just the social elite. Sooner or later corporate pigs prevent the trickle down by axing minimum wages, cutting corners in safe, sanitary working conditions and pushing out cheap products at a high price. This we all know is the exact fantasy of every libertarian nutjob out there.

 
Not too complex at all. Simply keep the economy nationalized so we don't have corporate ***** seizing power and dominating our lives. GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO MEET PROTOCALS. Scared of a socio-fascist dictatorship forming and doing the same thing as the corporate pigs? LET THE PEOPLE STEP IN. (IE: Impeach the ******* and elect someone who can do the job without being a greedy sack of ****)

The greater wealth doesn't provide to all. Just the social elite. Sooner or later corporate pigs prevent the trickle down by axing minimum wages, cutting corners in safe, sanitary working conditions and pushing out cheap products at a high price. This we all know is the exact fantasy of every libertarian nutjob out there.

 

TheJenn88

New member
Not too complex at all. Simply keep the economy nationalized so we don't have corporate ***** seizing power and dominating our lives. GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO MEET PROTOCALS. Scared of a socio-fascist dictatorship forming and doing the same thing as the corporate pigs? LET THE PEOPLE STEP IN. (IE: Impeach the ******* and elect someone who can do the job without being a greedy sack of ****)
The greater wealth doesn't provide to all. Just the social elite. Sooner or later corporate pigs prevent the trickle down by axing minimum wages, cutting corners in safe, sanitary working conditions and pushing out cheap products at a high price. This we all know is the exact fantasy of every libertarian nutjob out there.
Since that goon Hugo hasn't replied yet...

The thing was, eisan was asking you to defend marx's ideal system.

Ideal. Throughout history communism has abysmally failed. People have taken communism from its true form, and mutated it because they were they were the ultimate - the dictator. Anyone may start off with good intentions. ****, I think communism is a pretty good idea, but only in its ideal state. The fault lies not in the system, but in the people. With that much power, and millions of people bowing at the point of your finger because you're a dictator, the power would get to ANYONE's head. It doesn't matter who you are. If you had millions of people, an entire economy, and lavishes in your very grasp, you'd be willing to let them go after the country stabilizes itself? Because in communism, in its true form, the dictatorship will ideally have dissolved.

Earth has never actually seen a communist government, because at no point in history (that I know of), has there been a dictatorship that has willingly dissolved. Sure, the people could try and overthrow the dictator, but there's two flaws, a) a new leader would probably arise from the rebellion because society would need a new figurehead to help re-stabilize. It's just natural progression to have someone lead/organize a rebellion, and even more natural for them to assume complete leadship again (thus, going byebye of communism) b) the dictator would already have the country under control in such a fashion that he'd have his own brainwashed military to save him.

Now, aside from the fact that communism is just so *** damned ideal, here are some other flaws...

- try putting North America into a democratic state. How many people would work from the good of their heart to make an effort to be a doctor when they are paid as much as a garbage man? Where is the motivation to better oneself if there are no rewards? The Western World has learnt that for hard work, you get a cookie, and for lazy work, you get a welfare check.

- people have naturally evolved with a socio-economic ladder to guide them. Though most people will claim that it "sucks", how many people actually think they could thrive with no competition? No variation?

- experiences will be limited to that which the society will allow/provide. It won't provide the same opportunities.

- the economy will be at a standstill and non-comparable to the rest of the world economy. Because things are mass controlled, they will not be good enough to compete, their technologies will be behind. There's no free market for competition to better what is available, so everything has to come from a government-controlled, non-experimental environment.

Basically, with what you're given in today's world, you can't make communism. Not unless you forcefully and en masse breed the desire for known freedom and democracy out of people, and make them ignorant and desireless of and for the past. You'd be hard-pressed to find a big enough rebellious group to subdue an entire global population of people, because unless you have the whole world under seige, there is no way people are going to be ignorant of what else is going on in the world.

 

TheJenn88

New member
Just a note to add...

The topic question was slightly unfair in that you put KVH on the defensive, while having the question be pro-hugo.

 

hugo

New member
The fact is serious attempts at communism always result in tyranny and severe restrictions on civil rights. What the left fails to realize is the positive correlation between insuring property rights and insuring civil rights. Once you severely restict the rights of property the restrictions on civil rights quickly follow.

Jenn has covered much of the basics...let me explain other fundamental reasons government should have a small role in economic matters. There are basically four ways money is spent 1) You spend your money on yourself 2) You spend your money on someone else 3) you spend someone else's on yourself 4) you spend someone elses money on someone else (see Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom). Under scenario 1 you care about both quality and price. Under scenario 2 your prime concern is price. Under scenario 3 your prime concern is quality. Scenario 4 is the worst scenario you don't care about either price or quality. Scenario 4 describes the vast majority of government spending.

It is a myth that government is the primary factor responsible for the minimum wage. There has never been a truly effective minimum wage in this nation's history. Government imposed minimum wages have always followed the free market having risen the wages of 90+% of adult workers above the government set minimum wage. If governments really controlled minimum wage the Soviet Union could have cured their economy by simply setting a wage equivalent to $10 an hour. We all know why that would not work..it would be paying people more than their productive power is worth it would lead to massive unemployment. It is the free market that generally sets wages. China and India tried Marxism, now they, and their people, are enjoying the growth from switching to capitalism.

 

hugo

New member
No corporation ever forced me to purchase a good from them. Government sure as **** does.
 

eisanbt

New member
Well done Hugo, you point is most valid....

But as an anarchist I'ld just like to point out that the flaws on both sides come down the existance of a state in the first place and, as with Jenn's example, the existance of a hierchical system of social relations.

Just a note to add :rolleyes:

OK KVH, get back to work.

 

TheJenn88

New member
No corporation ever forced me to purchase a good from them. Government sure as **** does.
Hey now, don't take that as an indication that I'm pro-capitalism and am in agreement with you :p . In its own special way, capitalism sucks just as many hairy ***** (well, maybe not quite as many...)

 

hugo

New member
Hey now, don't take that as an indication that I'm pro-capitalism and am in agreement with you :p . In its own special way, capitalism sucks just as many hairy ***** (well, maybe not quite as many...)
Churchill's famous quote about democracy also applies to capitalism.

 

hugo

New member
Well done Hugo, you point is most valid....
But as an anarchist I'ld just like to point out that the flaws on both sides come down the existance of a state in the first place and, as with Jenn's example, the existance of a hierchical system of social relations.

Just a note to add :rolleyes:

OK KVH, get back to work.
As a classical liberal I recognize the need for a limited government to protect the citizens of a nation from internal and external aggressors.

 

eisanbt

New member
Well there's some common ground but I'm a communial anarchist, I say the market and private property have to go as well. :)
 

phreakwars

New member
During a late night/afternoon exchange of opinions I thought it a lovely idea to see what results would be stumbled accross from a pointy stick fight between our resident Commie KVH and our resident true-capitalist Hugo.
Upon the realization that geological circumstances would inhibit such a humourous battle I've decided to settle for a debate between the 2 lads and hope that somebody (Nudges Phreak) Might set up a poll of sorts for us for the novelty of guessing in advance who'll come out on top.

SO to get things started,

Resolve: Marx's idea of a state controled economy is not only unrealistic in that it is too complexe to properly function under human guidence but it limits the ability of the market to produce the greatest amount of wealth for a nation which is ideal as the greater wealth provides for all who contribute to its production.

Lets make Karl and Adam proad!
Sorry it took me so long to respond.... site issues to deal with, as you probably already noticed.. :rolleyes:
So, I'm guessing what you are asking for here is a IDIOT BOX poll...

Hold on... let me consult with the Premium member staff on this....

No, think I'll go above them and talk with the Mods...

Hmm, no MODS around but me...

hold on... let me get out the GF manual ......

Ah yes, here it is... "ONLY PREMIUMS CAN REQUEST AN IDIOT BOX POLL"

It WASN'T an idiot box poll you wanted ???

Oh, well then why in the **** did you try and start a poll in a forum where you need to do it your **** self and not ask a MOD ??? Not my fault your permissions don't allow it. Buy a **** Premium and make your own poll.

I am busy... So OK, I'll create you a **** poll just this once.. Just don't ask again;)

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eisanbt

New member
My apologies for not having a creditcard.

No I wasn't requesting an idiot box poll, just a poll of sorts. I figured that being the genie you are you might be willing to stick one up, the other alternative was to get builder to start this thread but I felt that would be passing on the responsability of insitgating this and any angry sentiments that may come with contesting 2 established members.

But in light of your poll options I think 72 seems like fun enough, just remember that I always edit my posts so a lack of that privledge is gonna mean posts beyond the comprehension of any respectable master of the english language.

 

builder

New member
just remember that I always edit my posts so a lack of that privledge is gonna mean posts beyond the comprehension of any respectable master of the english language.
Oh, threats of incomprehension warrant a week at least in the box.

While you're in there, try and chip the snot off the underside of the workbench. I don't know what Komrad eats, but he pumps out the most effective contact snot in the known universe. ;)

 

phreakwars

New member
I ain't your ******* butler, it's bad enough I have to do maid work for ******** who are too stupid to use a spell check.

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