Letter to Europe
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Cogito Ergo Sum
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- Apr 1, 2005
Oh wardmd...you tortured little soul...
Never did I ever claim that Iraq did not have the makings for WMD. What I have claimed is that they had none that we could find. Not the stockpiles that the White House was claiming, and the Newsweek and Time magazine were claiming to exist including highly detailed drawings and declassified government photos.
Quite the contrary, I know that Iraq had limited materials to make chemical and biological weapons.
I know this because WE, the USA and Great BRitain, gave or sold it to them! Did you know this? It's a matter of Senate record.
"The USA and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.
Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.
Classified US Defense Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.
The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.
One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.
The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.
The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.'
This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.
Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: 'UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.'
Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the 'executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record'.
It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the 'evidence of proof' that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction. "
Unfortunately, this is a sad little detail that for the most part, got squashed in the press as fast as the White House could side step it and redirect the focus at Saddam Hussein, WMD's and 9/11; 3 unrelated items completely.
Never did I ever claim that Iraq did not have the makings for WMD. What I have claimed is that they had none that we could find. Not the stockpiles that the White House was claiming, and the Newsweek and Time magazine were claiming to exist including highly detailed drawings and declassified government photos.
Quite the contrary, I know that Iraq had limited materials to make chemical and biological weapons.
I know this because WE, the USA and Great BRitain, gave or sold it to them! Did you know this? It's a matter of Senate record.
"The USA and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.
Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.
Classified US Defense Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.
The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.
One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.
The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.
The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.'
This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.
Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: 'UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.'
Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the 'executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record'.
It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the 'evidence of proof' that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction. "
Unfortunately, this is a sad little detail that for the most part, got squashed in the press as fast as the White House could side step it and redirect the focus at Saddam Hussein, WMD's and 9/11; 3 unrelated items completely.
Well, FINALLY, you're beginning to see the error of your previous statement ("no WMD"). But you're still side-stepping all of the previous statements of the U.N. Inspectors (that Iraq DID have WMD [chemical and biological])Cogito Ergo Sum said:Oh wardmd...you tortured little soul...
Never did I ever claim that Iraq did not have the makings for WMD. What I have claimed is that they had none that we could find. Not the stockpiles that the White House was claiming, and the Newsweek and Time magazine were claiming to exist including highly detailed drawings and declassified government photos.
Quite the contrary, I know that Iraq had limited materials to make chemical and biological weapons.
I know this because WE, the USA and Great BRitain, gave or sold it to them! Did you know this? It's a matter of Senate record.
"The USA and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.
Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.
Classified US Defense Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.
The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.
One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.
The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.
The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.'
This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.
Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: 'UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.'
Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the 'executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record'.
It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the 'evidence of proof' that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction. "
Unfortunately, this is a sad little detail that for the most part, got squashed in the press as fast as the White House could side step it and redirect the focus at Saddam Hussein, WMD's and 9/11; 3 unrelated items completely.
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2005
wardmd said:
Your logic is blinding...(and Machivellian in every regard- to you, the END justifies the MEANS, regardless how wrong it is).
Let's see if I got your philosophy.
Any nation we don't like that we want to invade, we just sell you all the necessary components of WMD's, then later we claim that you have WMD's and that you won't prove to us the non-existence of them (WTF?) and so then, we just invade you to PROTECT ourselves.
Brilliant!
You should work for the CIA.
Just so I am clear, how does one provide "proof" of the non-existence of something? Or I'll make it even easier, how does one provide proof of the destruction of something?
You see, chemical and biological weapons are destroyed through super intense heat which vaporizes them. How does one obtain proof from a blast furnace?
The orchestrated invasion of Iraq changed it's story of the reasons "why" faster than costume changes in an opera.
First it was failure to allow inspectors, then it was not allowing the inspector to go whereever they wanted anywhere in the country, then it was ignored ultimatems, then it was WMD's, then it was human rights abuses until we got caught doing that too, then it was liberating the Iraqi's and having "free" elections so long as we approved the candidates...Jesus ****ing Christ...you actually think everything is A-Okay with this type of behavior? You're okay with this?
If so, you deserve to be made the fool by your government. But then again, perhaps you are part of the whole cloak and dagger division yourself.
There are many people and many nations of whom I am not convinced of their friendship towards the USA, but there is nothing for which I am prepared to go and kill them first. I will however, provide support for the most devestating counterattack one could muster should we be attacked.
In fact, I'm all for a full scale counterattack against Saudi Arabia. The government is corrupt, not a democracy, and finances worldwide terrorism. But as we all know, Bush won't attack the House of Saud because he's too busy sucking their respective ****s and taking it up the ass just so that he and his croynie buddies can suck at the cash cow's udder.
Well, let's see if I can straighten you out on these simple points (since you've obviously given up [rightly so] on your other erroneous assertions)...Cogito Ergo Sum said:
ANY nation (Nation-A) that poses a threat to its neighbors AND SIGNS AGREEMENTS TO DISARM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTIONS (INCLUDING INSPECTIONS [to PROVE their compliance]), then BREECHES those agreements
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2005
Nice sidestepping!
Let's go back to the real question I posted, which is at the crux of the heart of the matter.
Let's go back to the real question I posted, which is at the crux of the heart of the matter.
Cogito Ergo Sum said:
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
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- Apr 1, 2005
wardmd said:
Faulty? Nice. Is that the politically correct way for saying "WRONG" "FABRICATED" "HYPED OUT OF PROPORTION AND REALITY"?
Just checking?
wardmd said:
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
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- Apr 1, 2005
wardmd said:
I seriously doubt that your philosophy here would work against somebody equally prepared, or in my humble estimation, far more capable than we are...say...China?
I still love the political genius' who like to saber rattle with China while actually thinking to themselves that 300 million Americans are capable of withstanding 1.3 BILLION Chinese.
I've been on a few battlefields, and I'm telling you, it ain't gonna happen, Alice.
So, Mad-Hatter... What's YOUR brilliant solution? If 1.3 BILLION Chinese are headed to San Francisco, armed and ready for combat against theCogito Ergo Sum said:I seriously doubt that your philosophy here would work against somebody equally prepared, or in my humble estimation, far more capable than we are...say...China?
I still love the political genius' who like to saber rattle with China while actually thinking to themselves that 300 million Americans are capable of withstanding 1.3 BILLION Chinese.
I've been on a few battlefields, and I'm telling you, it ain't gonna happen, Alice.
God, can't you come up with something original?builder said:**** me drunk CES. You're not around much these days, but when you decide to make an appearance, at least you have the decency to make the most of your time here, and tear some big meaty strips of your opponent.
Hats off to CES.
You've asserted the same lame praise of CES, yet you, obviously, have not been reading his feeble responses...
CES has been shown to be FLAT OUT WRONG on the 17 United Nations Resolutions (he asserted only 10) - Buzz... Thanks for playing...
CES has conceded that there WERE WMD (he even stated that the United States sold Saddam the WMD agents) - you can't have it both ways, you know, either WE sold him the WMD (and they existed), or they didn't exist (therefore, no one sold them to him).
I'm sure you're missing some pressing Bush-Bashing program on Air-Head America, so I won't keep you any longer!
ToriAllen
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- Jul 30, 2004
I think you are a great asset to this site and I hope you stick around after this topic has been exhausted. It is good to have another well informed conservative around. I avoid political debates with CES, or any debate with CES, because I donwardmd said:
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2005
wardmd said:
Oh there he goes again, misquoting me or just twisting the truth.
1. Yes, 17 resolutions, not 10. My mistake. However, when I reviewed them individually, they are all almost reiterations of exactly the same thing so I cannot help but wonder why all of the different resolutions.
2. However, and this is important, I never said Iraq had WMD's. What I said was
"Quite the contrary, I know that Iraq had limited materials to make chemical and biological weapons.
I know this because WE, the USA and Great Britain, gave or sold it to them! "
In fact I believe that they never did have any WMD's. If they did, I believe that they destroyed them as they had claimed from the beginning.
The whole WMD issue, from my perspective was nothing more than a highly organized smokescreen for the United States to justify an invasion of another nation, and is in fact, the exact opinion of the United Nations Security Council and the Secretary General.
But then again, this is all moot, and what is really the crux of the matter here, is the complete shambles we have reduced Iraq into. Violence in the street, a collapsed economy, rampant unemployment, fear, terror, lawlessness of the highest order. Yes Sir Bob, we've "Improved" Iraq.
Good job Mr. Bush; you asswipe.
Cogito Ergo Sum
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- Apr 1, 2005
wardmd said:
Oh I'm SURE you don't want to get into a review of the record of G.W. Bush's life. It's messy, and ugly, and just plan downright full of crud.
But then again, so are all of the other politicians. All of them.
You see, you keep thinking erronously that I am a Liberal and perhaps even a Democrat when nothing could be further from the truth.
However, just because I am not that, does not mean that I am a RepubliNazi either.
I find ALL political parties and their mindlessness to be nothing more than revolting at best.
Like I stated before, I judge each individual circumstance on its own merits and not based upon a misguided political philosophy.
You however it would seem are the whole damn trumpet section for far-right extreemisim. Pity, I would have thought you're too intelligent for that kind of behavior.
That's the wonderous thing about our form of Government... Not only do YOU (and I) have a right to profess our opinions, but WE get to elect our representatives (including the President of the United States)...Cogito Ergo Sum said:Oh there he goes again, misquoting me or just twisting the truth.
1. Yes, 17 resolutions, not 10. My mistake. However, when I reviewed them individually, they are all almost reiterations of exactly the same thing so I cannot help but wonder why all of the different resolutions.
2. However, and this is important, I never said Iraq had WMD's. What I said was
"Quite the contrary, I know that Iraq had limited materials to make chemical and biological weapons.
I know this because WE, the USA and Great Britain, gave or sold it to them! "
In fact I believe that they never did have any WMD's. If they did, I believe that they destroyed them as they had claimed from the beginning.
The whole WMD issue, from my perspective was nothing more than a highly organized smokescreen for the United States to justify an invasion of another nation, and is in fact, the exact opinion of the United Nations Security Council and the Secretary General.
But then again, this is all moot, and what is really the crux of the matter here, is the complete shambles we have reduced Iraq into. Violence in the street, a collapsed economy, rampant unemployment, fear, terror, lawlessness of the highest order. Yes Sir Bob, we've "Improved" Iraq.
Good job Mr. Bush; you asswipe.
It is HIS judgement (with our support and/or dissent) which dictates our Foreign Policy... Obviously there are many who disagree with his judgement (and, of course, many others who agree with it)... While we can all rant and rave to our heart's content, it is, in the end, HIS obligation to Preserve, Protect and Defend.
I'm NOT twisting your words, Sir; you are doing just fine in that regard all my yourself... If the United States (or anyone else) sold Iraq the components for WMD (Chemical, Biological and/or Nuclear), and/or if Iraq was seeking to acquire same (ie, Yellow Cake) - the issue which faced the Nation (and President Bush) was do we take Saddam at his word, or do we REQUIRE PROOF of his compliance?
I have no doubt that there are THOUSANDS, hell, possibly MILLIONS of Americans and/or citizens of other nations who HONESTLY feel that Saddam posed NO THREAT to ANYONE, and/or that he was in "compliance" with the terms of the Cease-Fire... I am, simply, NOT one of them...
While I deplore war, I also will not condone sitting idly by, hoping and praying that diplomacy will solve all of the problems in the world (history has shown that it, clearly, will not).
If, as you assert (and I concur) that the United States (and/or other nations) sold Iraq components of WMD, AND Saddam demonstrated is propensity to USE them, AND faced with his on-going defiance of U.N. Resolutions, AND faced with the REAL threat of terrorist attacks against the United States, I simply CANNOT understand the thought process which suggests that "war is not the answer".
While it is regretable that Iraq had to suffer the devistations of War, the PERPETUATORS of that destruction is the "insergents"... As I have said, repeatedly, IF the Iraqis had surrendered (as did the Germans and, ultimately, the Japanese, in WWII), or even if Saddam had, simply, complied with the terms of the Cease-Fire, then the devistation against Iraq would have ended LONG AGO...
Saddam (and now the "insurgents") are responsible for the on-going violence... The Iraqi people are TRYING to establish a free, democratically elected government, but the "insurgents" are the ones disrupting the process, murdering hundreds/thousands of Iraqis (and, occasionally, U.S. Troops)...
Cogito Ergo Sum
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2005
Zzzzzzz...
Yadda Yadda Yadda. We're there. It's a mess. Bush is still a pencil headed moron (in my and other's opinion). Dick Cheney is a crook and Condi Rice is a bafoon Uncle Tom. Life goes on.
You have good points that some might agree with, but as you stated yourself, I am not one of them. We will agree to disagree.
We need something else to quibble over.
What's another good hot button topic. You got the old CES juices flowing and now we need another conversation topic.
Any ideas?
Yadda Yadda Yadda. We're there. It's a mess. Bush is still a pencil headed moron (in my and other's opinion). Dick Cheney is a crook and Condi Rice is a bafoon Uncle Tom. Life goes on.
You have good points that some might agree with, but as you stated yourself, I am not one of them. We will agree to disagree.
We need something else to quibble over.
What's another good hot button topic. You got the old CES juices flowing and now we need another conversation topic.
Any ideas?
Agreed...Cogito Ergo Sum said:Zzzzzzz...
Yadda Yadda Yadda. We're there. It's a mess. Bush is still a pencil headed moron (in my and other's opinion). Dick Cheney is a crook and Condi Rice is a bafoon Uncle Tom. Life goes on.
You have good points that some might agree with, but as you stated yourself, I am not one of them. We will agree to disagree.
We need something else to quibble over.
What's another good hot button topic. You got the old CES juices flowing and now we need another conversation topic.
Any ideas?
I'll have to poke around and/or ponder what else is yankin' my chain today...
But first, I better make an effort at earning that paycheck...
TTFN
